Heavy Boolits article by Taffin

[bbailey7821]

Did anyone else read the article in this months Handgunner magazine by John Taffin. It was really down on heavy weight bullets for Revolvers. I was curious if any you guys had shared some of his referenced experiences? God help us if he finds out about the .500 700g. group buy...

[Bret4207]

Taffin is a decent writer but he isn't god or anything. Use what you want. Elmer knew more about guns than Taffin ever will, hated GC's in a revolver and yet I find them very useful. The world didn't stop just because I disagreed with St. Elmer. Taffin isn;t even a Saint yet, so there's even less danger of Armageddon if you do it your way.

[btroj]

Ever stop to think that a guy who needs to write that many articles has to come up with some weird stuff now and then?
Like Bret said, who cares to an extent? He has opinions but they are not the only ones out there. I shoot what I want because it fills my needs and pleases me and don't really care if any writer likes what I am doing or not.

[NHlever]

John Taffin has spent a lot of years shooting heavy bullets from revolvers, single shots, lever guns, and you name it. Now his hands, and arms have paid the price, and he is old enough to have spent some time reflectiing on just how much good that did.

[AlabamaGene]

You must be one of the internet ninja warriors he is referring to...

[hansumtoad]

Don't worry.... be happy. I'm tellin' ya that Newton fella is onto something....regardless of what John taffin might think at the moment.

[pdawg_shooter]

I too am a fan of heavy for caliber cast bullets. I just get better results with them. Better accuracy and better performance on game. And no, I haven't read that article. I base my opinion on near 50 years of shooting. But then opinions are like a$$ holes, everyone has one. Heavy works for me so I guess I will stay with them.

[44man]

Taffin and I do not get along! ;-)
However there is a point of too heavy in a revolver.
I use heavy boolits all the time but you need to remember once so heavy, brass can not hold the boolits in under recoil.
That will be your only concern. As long as you don't run into that problem, heavy boolits are great.

[NHlever]

I like heavy for caliber boolits in my revolvers too, especially those of good design for hunting. My cancer, and treatments have made hunting kind of a rare event for a while so I have explored lighter boolits for paper punching. So far though I will be the first to admit that I just haven't gotten the same accuracy yet with them that I am used to with the heavier options, and I have been looking at the Accurate catalog this morning for some new heavier designs.

[44man]

I like heavy for caliber boolits in my revolvers too, especially those of good design for hunting. My cancer, and treatments have made hunting kind of a rare event for a while so I have explored lighter boolits for paper punching. So far though I will be the first to admit that I just haven't gotten the same accuracy yet with them that I am used to with the heavier options, and I have been looking at the Accurate catalog this morning for some new heavier designs.
I wish the best for you my friend and hope you beat it 100%! :drinks:

[blackthorn]

Quote "I wish the best for you my friend and hope you beat it 100%!"

+2 from our house!!

[RobS]

Revolvers: Heavier for caliber has been better on this end vs light by a long shot. I don't even fool with anything under 300 grains for my 454 Casull any longer. There is a point of no returns though when getting ridiculously heavy.

[MGySgt]

IMHO - Taffin has some good articles, but every once in a while I think he goes off the deep end.

Too heavy for caliber is a personal thing and the weight will vary depending on the application.

In 44mag - a 330 grain won't shoot as flat to 100 yards, as a 250 grain so your point blank will be shorter.

Personaly - I like about 280 grain in a 44 - heavy enough to get the penetration and light enough to get 1250 - 1300 out of my SBH 4 5/8's. They still need a heavy crimp and good bullet pull or they will jump the crimp.

Just my 2 cents worth

[bigboredad]

I just like big bullets and I cannot lie. The best accuracy I get out of my .45 Ruger is with a 340 grain bullet and it doesn't matter if it is going 900fps or at ludicrous fps.


NHlever
My prayers are with you. Attitude is very important. Just keep telling yourself you can win and in the dark moments when you think you can't just remember you are not alone

[blasternank]

In my 357 I used 180 gr. bullets for bowling pin shoots and loved them. My dad had some cast ones for awhile and I think they were 200 or 220 gr.! The 180's people would always ask why not the 158's. I just like the extra mass and If I wanted I could easily feel comfortable using them for hunting or anything else I wanted without fear they wouldn't be adequate.

[waksupi]

If anything heavier than a 250 gr. boolit was needed in a .44 magnum, Elmer would have been using them.

[AZ-Stew]

After reading the responses, apparently bbailey and I are the only ones who have read the article.

I'm not a big Taffin fan, either, but in this article I think he's spot on. He discusses standard, heavy, and overly heavy bullets for several cartridges and their advantages and disadvantages, including penetration, bullet pull-out under recoil and revolver life as it relates to bullet weight and fired velocity. In my opinion, it was well thought out and reflected his many years of experience.

Since I don't hunt moose or griz, standard bullet weights are fine for me. I don't even shoot many magnum-level loads these days. When I keel over, my kids and grandkids will inherit revolvers with a lot of life left in them.

For what it's worth, I remember reading something by Keith wherein he said he shot lengthwise through a caribou using a 210 or 220 grain SWC cast bullet of his design from a .41 magnum. In my book, that's plenty of penetration. Going to a 240 or 250, or even heavier bullet would have bought him exactly nothing.

Regards,

Stew

[AlabamaGene]

Say what you want about the gun rags but it's kinda cool that FMG publications (Guns, American Handgunner, etc.) puts full text versions of their rags online. So you can read the Taffin piece here, I think on page 26:

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/

[pmer]

I think I read on Linebaugh site that he has had more trouble with light boolits strecthing frames and or wearing out revolvers faster than using heavy boolits.

[MtGun44]

Since a normal Keith or LBT 250 gr .44 mag cast boolit will shoot completely through most game on this
continent at 1200-1300 fps, I have some trouble understanding exactly why I would want
a heavier boolit. I have tried the Lee 310 and got worse accuracy, more recoil and a faster
depletion of my lead supply.

Still a free country, do whatever you want, but I can't see much point in the heavy for caliber
unless you are trying to keep the energy up for subsonic loads for supressed weapons.

Bill

[frontloader]

darn , I wish I had of read this yesterday. I just ordered a 340 gr mold for my Vaquero!.......BTW...I read over on singleactions web site that Mr Taffin had a heart attack last week.....frontloader

[RobS]

After reading the responses, apparently bbailey and I are the only ones who have read the article.

I'm not a big Taffin fan, either, but in this article I think he's spot on. He discusses standard, heavy, and overly heavy bullets for several cartridges and their advantages and disadvantages, including penetration, bullet pull-out under recoil and revolver life as it relates to bullet weight and fired velocity. In my opinion, it was well thought out and reflected his many years of experience.

Since I don't hunt moose or griz, standard bullet weights are fine for me. I don't even shoot many magnum-level loads these days. When I keel over, my kids and grandkids will inherit revolvers with a lot of life left in them.

For what it's worth, I remember reading something by Keith wherein he said he shot lengthwise through a caribou using a 210 or 220 grain SWC cast bullet of his design from a .41 magnum. In my book, that's plenty of penetration. Going to a 240 or 250, or even heavier bullet would have bought him exactly nothing
Regards,

Stew

Stew:

It's not about weight/penetration for me it's about accuracy and that's where I leave it at. Achieving accuracy for 45 cal revolvers from a 300 or 340 grainer has been a whole lot easier than the lighter ones. I find that much heavier than 350 grains in the 45 colt/454 casull and there begins the point of running into being to much of a good thing..........................at least for me.

[bbailey7821]

Wow, this one really took on a life of it's own. I really like my 300 grain Casull loads and will continue to shoot 'em...due to accuracy. I would like to see how the new monster 700 grainer works in the 500 S&W, though. That one has got to be a handful! As always, great feedback, gentlemen.

[tommygirlMT]

Ive already stated my opinion on this Taffin guy and all the rest of his kind:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1204178&postcount=26

As to the actual subject under discussion --- there is a point of diminishing returns --- but it should be pointed out that your still getting return on using a heavier boolit --- just by not as big of margin as stepping up will get you further down the scale --- a boolit is only too heavy when you get to the point where its not a case of diminishing returns but rather negative returns --- or --- other things in the equation break down --- such as bullet pulling and cylinder lock up even with a full crimp on the other rounds in the chamber --- loss of accuracy --- and/or loss of boolit stability due to not enough twist and not enough velocity (both working together to result in net RPMs) for the length of such a heavy boolit to be stablized --- assuming lead alloy of course --- using exotic super dense materials can allow shorter heavy boolits --- always wanted to try depleated uranium but no one will let me :(

Long story short --- even a broken clock is right twice a day --- but it is still broken --- I dont trust the work at face value of anyone that gets payed to write articles --- and not just saying that about gun mag article writers

[John Ross]

Wow, this one really took on a life of it's own. I would like to see how the new monster 700 grainer works in the 500 S&W, though. That one has got to be a handful! As always, great feedback, gentlemen.

I guess I'm one of the "Internet ninjas" John refers to in his article, though I doubt he considers me that.

I first shot 650 grain bullets in the .500 S&W on June 17, 2003 and 725 grain bullets a month or so later. These were my designs, cast in MountainMolds custom molds. Ranger Rick contacted me some time after I had written of my findings, and Dan at MM made him a similar 700 grain mold after deciding his blocks weren't quite big enough for 725 grain slugs.

I did all this to determine what these guns were capable of, NOT because I think "heavier is always better."

Taffin is right that heavier bullets pull sooner. That's why I use new brass, no expander plug, and heavy crimp on heavy loads with heavy bullets.

Taffin is right that accuracy can go to hell with too long a bullet, especially at moderate to low muzzle velocities. That's why I designed and sell a .500 with a 1:10" rifling twist. Ranger Rick gets rifle-like accuracy with his 700 grain loads and a standard 1:18 3/4" twist, and he's killed a lot of big game with that load. But, he shoots a full load that goes 1150 FPS out of his 10 1/2" barrel. The same load keyholes about 65 feet out when shot in the factory 4" (3 1/8" rifled) .500. My 5" barreled gun with 1:10" twist shoots 725s great at all velocities, even 850 FPS...

Taffin is right that heavy bullets have more recoil. Since I don't have rheumatoid arthritis (he does), heavier recoil is okay with me.

FWIW, I DON'T think 725 grains is the ideal weight for the .500 S&W. But I had to try it, and it seems a lot of folks here want to, too.

[Bwana]

The heaviest bullet I have shot out of my old DW 44 mags and now SBHs was a modified Lee mold that ended up being a 340 grain flatpoint with the nose portion being .421" in dia.
It shot very well in the DWs and does equally well in the SBHs. In the DWs it was loaded to 1.80" loa. In the SBHs 1.725". I have fired thousands of heavy 44mag loads and have the cronic pain that came from doing it. 8500 through the first DW in 19 months and a little over 6000 through the second in two years. That was a long time ago. My customised SBH (4lbs) is easier on the hand. Last week I shot it and the 10 1/2" and remembered why I don't do that much anymore.

[steg]

NHlever, you hang in there buddy, we can't be loosin any shooten buddies, bless you sir, your in my prayers.....................

[1Shirt]

Being old, and thinking old school, like the saying, "if it works don't fix it". If you are satisfied with what you are doing, leave it alone.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Piedmont]

darn , I wish I had of read this yesterday. I just ordered a 340 gr mold for my Vaquero!.......BTW...I read over on singleactions web site that Mr Taffin had a heart attack last week.....frontloader

I was just over there and found no evidence of this. Could you clarify or supply a link?

[frontloader]

Piedmont....dont know how to post a link, but singleactions.com 18th post down posted March 22, in single-action revolver section.......frontloader

[crash87]

Yea he had an attack, but it was a while ago, and I guess he is doing better, even was out doing some shooting, I guess. All these gun writing hacks have got to have a niche, heavy bullet verses light, big bore against small. Every since O'Connor got a cartridge tagged to him there are those that have tried that to. Boddington has tried for the whole plethora of them, to date I haven't seen it happening. I love leverguns, but Scovill over at wolfe publishing, believes they should be rammed down everyones throat. I was once in a hunting camp "after" he was there, apparently got quite sickening after a while.
Back to the point, use whatever you want and, try out whatever you want, how else are you going to know? These older writers embraced new and extreme stuff when they were younger, now, they feel they have the experience and wisdom and they think you should do as they say, because of it..... riiiiiight.
Taffin won't come to this site, the way I have it understood. Probably to much to grasp and these guys aren't really set up to take critism, it's there way or no way.
But he is on other sites, could give you all a few, but why? You all, who care anyway, know where to find him. I f you do run into him on a forum, post him a question concerning cast "BOOLITS" 1st and formost he will try and give you a spelling lesson, the real reason he wont come here, pettiness at its best. And, that "IS" something he posted on another site. By the way, I do believe I spelled it right ;) CRASH87

[Piedmont]

Piedmont....dont know how to post a link, but singleactions.com 18th post down posted March 22, in single-action revolver section.......frontloader

Thanks, but that is someone asking Taffin a question.

There was a mention of John Linebaugh having a heart attack, but he isn't Taffin.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Well put Bret.

[Bret4207]

Yea he had an attack, but it was a while ago, and I guess he is doing better, even was out doing some shooting, I guess. All these gun writing hacks have got to have a niche, heavy bullet verses light, big bore against small. Every since O'Connor got a cartridge tagged to him there are those that have tried that to. Boddington has tried for the whole plethora of them, to date I haven't seen it happening. I love leverguns, but Scovill over at wolfe publishing, believes they should be rammed down everyones throat. I was once in a hunting camp "after" he was there, apparently got quite sickening after a while.
Back to the point, use whatever you want and, try out whatever you want, how else are you going to know? These older writers embraced new and extreme stuff when they were younger, now, they feel they have the experience and wisdom and they think you should do as they say, because of it..... riiiiiight.
Taffin won't come to this site, the way I have it understood. Probably to much to grasp and these guys aren't really set up to take critism, it's there way or no way.
But he is on other sites, could give you all a few, but why? You all, who care anyway, know where to find him. I f you do run into him on a forum, post him a question concerning cast "BOOLITS" 1st and formost he will try and give you a spelling lesson, the real reason he wont come here, pettiness at its best. And, that "IS" something he posted on another site. By the way, I do believe I spelled it right ;) CRASH87

I've gone to a few websites where the gunwriters hang. The hero worship is sickening. I will take on anyone I think is wrong, but it's very discouraging when you try to argue your point and have 15 or Mr. Heros Palace Guard trashing everything you write.

Although I haven't agreed with everything he writes, I give Mike Venturino credit for actually conversing with the unwashed masses. At least his ego isn't so big it keeps him from LISTENING to another view.

[crash87]

I've gone to a few websites where the gunwriters hang. The hero worship is sickening. I will take on anyone I think is wrong, but it's very discouraging when you try to argue your point and have 15 or Mr. Heros Palace Guard trashing everything you write.

Although I haven't agreed with everything he writes, I give Mike Venturino credit for actually conversing with the unwashed masses. At least his ego isn't so big it keeps him from LISTENING to another view.

Yes, the writer sits back and doesn't have to defend his "opinion" no matter how inaccurate, how ridiculous, or how ignorant of the issues. Sits back and lets his "posse" take up the argument, He, should be defending. I actually enjoy reading such post, entertainment at it's best, (man, it's been a looong winter) and many times, you will see the post pulled when the tide starts to turn, in making the expert out to actually be, dare I say it, ...wrong.
Venturino is good and there a a few others who are good, but there again they have there niche. Did you know he is getting a collection of WW2? Everyone should, He mentions it in every single article he has written, since he started it. (note to Mike; Its not a bad thing Mike, but, we all know that already.[smilie=b: )
One will not please all the people, all of the time, but latley I have to agree with what a member said previosly to the fact when he picks up one of these periodicals, he's done with it in about 5 minutes, A agree. My mailbox isn't as full as it used to be, same 'ol, same 'ol, and that really is to bad. CRASH87

[white eagle]

whats the big deal
do these writers run out of things to say
who cares
what Johnny come lately shoots from his gun
its great to have opinions but just because one person who
has a writing job says it so .......means very little

[44man]

I've gone to a few websites where the gunwriters hang. The hero worship is sickening. I will take on anyone I think is wrong, but it's very discouraging when you try to argue your point and have 15 or Mr. Heros Palace Guard trashing everything you write.

Although I haven't agreed with everything he writes, I give Mike Venturino credit for actually conversing with the unwashed masses. At least his ego isn't so big it keeps him from LISTENING to another view.
Thank you Bret, for saying it the way it is. Taffin has the very worst "hero palace guard" with his overblown head. Any beginner here knows more then he does. I turn the page when he is in a rag.
Mike and I have had a few bad points but he is a decent man and one of us.
Taffin and his guard tossed me off the single action site when I showed what a revolver can do and I went out of my way to explain the process. SMALL LOSS! [smilie=w:
I wish I could sneak back in just to watch and laugh! [smilie=s:

[cajun shooter]

Taffin did have a massive heart problem in that his artery that went to the aorta was torn and he was bleeding internally to his death. His wife called 911 and he went straight to a 6 hour surgery. There is a complete article in the March 2011 issue of Guns magazine that has the full story by him. I have never been a big Taffin fan but do wish him a good recovery. From the story it appears that this took place in September of 2010. Magazine stories are about as quick as a snail race from New York to San Francisco. I had read in 2010 that John was having some wrist problems and that a young collage student was doing a lot of his shooting. The simple law of physics comes into play when shooting heavy bullets. For every force there is a equal opposite force. With certain people it does not matter how much they spend to do anything in the shooting sports as they have what is called disposable income. I do not and choose to shoot bullets that fit the chore and nothing more. If a person wants to spend his money that way then that is his business. Most gun articles are turned in months ahead of time. Taffin said that his article for January 2011 American Handgunner was turned in in September 2010. I still buy Guns because of Mike's articles.

[tek4260]

Hell I read what all of them write, along with all of the members here. I feel there is something to be learned from all, famous or not.

[bearcove]

The problem of picking what is best is where and what you use it for. I grew up in Mo., .357 mag was good enough for deer. My working partner goes to Texas and shoots small whitetail with a 7x57, works great, his daughter that is in med school shoot 2 last year.

I have a place in Alaska. I love to fish for Salmon! Best place is at the river mouths when they head upstream. EASIER to find. When I fish it is easy to get distracted with a 10lb silver on the line. The brown bear find this to be a good spot to fish also! I am taking my kids to go fishing up there in a few years.

How much gun is too much? I like John Ross's 500 S&W because it is easier to carry AND FISH with, than my 45-70 with 500gr handloads. Is it too much? Don't know, but I'm gonna try it.

How heavy???? How heavy can I shoot.

[Bret4207]

Taffin did have a massive heart problem in that his artery that went to the aorta was torn and he was bleeding internally to his death. His wife called 911 and he went straight to a 6 hour surgery. There is a complete article in the March 2011 issue of Guns magazine that has the full story by him. I have never been a big Taffin fan but do wish him a good recovery. From the story it appears that this took place in September of 2010. Magazine stories are about as quick as a snail race from New York to San Francisco. I had read in 2010 that John was having some wrist problems and that a young collage student was doing a lot of his shooting. The simple law of physics comes into play when shooting heavy bullets. For every force there is a equal opposite force. With certain people it does not matter how much they spend to do anything in the shooting sports as they have what is called disposable income. I do not and choose to shoot bullets that fit the chore and nothing more. If a person wants to spend his money that way then that is his business. Most gun articles are turned in months ahead of time. Taffin said that his article for January 2011 American Handgunner was turned in in September 2010. I still buy Guns because of Mike's articles.

I hope the guy recovers too, but if I wanted to hear about someones health issues I'd just go to the drug store and talk to any senior citizen in sight. That's the hero worship thing again, the idea that any of that stuff requires more than a brief paragraph.

[cajun shooter]

Well Bret, You are so far off base that it stinks. I was only trying to give enough information to explain what every one else was wrong about. In true fact I have never liked John Taffin or his articles. I have plenty of heroes in my little book. They are men like Thomas Jefferson not some rag writer who puts money in his pocket so that a gun company may sell a bad product. I have no gun writers on my list PEROID!! Please do me a favor and send me a pm about any question you might have about my intent!! I am guilty of being long winded most of the time but nothing else. I have agreed with you on most all of your post since I came to this forum. This one naming me a hero mag person has my BP way above where it should be. I wish only that I was close enough for you to see. That's a bag of ****.

[LAH]

Whew, that must have been some article? Guess maybe I should start readin' some of the rags. I only get American Rifleman & Precision Shooting.

[Dale53]

I have read the John Taffin article. He makes good sense. He is NOT stating that light bullets are better. He just states that there is a point of diminishing returns (kind of like what 44man is stating). Debating an article without reading it sometimes has us (I'm not immune to this) going around in circles.

My personal take is that I have been happy with 250 Keith's in my .44 Magnum. It has a good balance of velocity, penetration (end for end through a large whitetail deer at 100 yard), accuracy, and acceptable recoil.

I must admit that the Lee C430-310-RF is more accurate in my guns, but since I am NOT shooting silhouette, playing card accuracy at 100 yards gives me all I need for the kind of hunting that I am apt to do. I can do with out the extra recoil for general use including hunting. On the other hand, if I were hunting the BIG bears, then I might want to use the heavier bullets. Understand, I am not particularly recoil sensitive but I find as I get older (and I am REALLY older:mrgreen:) I prefer more pleasant loads for fun shooting.

YMMV
Dale53

[bowfin]

I found this a while back from the Linebaugh site:

http://customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm

This reminds me of a conversation I once had with my brother while were driving back from a deer hunt where we always had had great success:

"You know what we need for rifles to hunt that place right?"

"Yep, I do. We need a couple of..."

"Remington 700V rifles in .308 with Leupold 4x12 scopes."

"What the frick are you talking about!?! What we need is a couple of Remington Model 7 Carbines in .35 Remington and Weaver K3W scopes!"

"How stupid is that!?! We need to be sitting up top of the canyon and pick them off when they cross the cornfield. That's why God invented Sierra boattails."

No, idiot. We need to be walking down the ridgebacks and jumping them deer up. You'd die with that rifle before you made it out of the canyon."

Two guys, same subject, two different opinions based on what they both saw and knew for a fact.

[Bret4207]

Well Bret, You are so far off base that it stinks. I was only trying to give enough information to explain what every one else was wrong about. In true fact I have never liked John Taffin or his articles. I have plenty of heroes in my little book. They are men like Thomas Jefferson not some rag writer who puts money in his pocket so that a gun company may sell a bad product. I have no gun writers on my list PEROID!! Please do me a favor and send me a pm about any question you might have about my intent!! I am guilty of being long winded most of the time but nothing else. I have agreed with you on most all of your post since I came to this forum. This one naming me a hero mag person has my BP way above where it should be. I wish only that I was close enough for you to see. That's a bag of ****.

WHOA PAL! What I was referring to was Taffins writing an article about his health issues and the magazine publishing it, sort of like a National Enquirer story on some movie star with HIV or plague or something. I was not saying YOU were hero worshipping Taffin at all. My comment was directed towards the cult status Taffin has. I personally like his writing to a degree, but his posts at other websites have turned me off completely.

I'm afraid you completely misinterpreted what I was writing.

[NHlever]

I have read many of Taffin's articles, and I was even suckered into one of his books. I wish him good health, and good shooting, but I think the friendships we have here are more important than what we think about him, or his self health article. I'm glad he came through his crisis, and happy that he has been able to test some smaller guns lately to keep the paychecks coming.

[Suo Gan]

I have seen and sometimes participated in the the heavy for caliber argument. Frankly, I cannot remember the tide ever turning in favor of the 'normal' for caliber boolit weights, usually everyone is cheering the use of heavy boolits.

That being said, let me preface what I am about to say with, if something works for you, and you like the way it is working, far be it for me or anyone else to tell you what to do with your time and your guns.

I have not had any luck slinging heavy bullets downrange. For some reason when I first started casting that was my quest. Not sure why now. The 'normal' weight boolits usually performed better for me, but I still persisted in finding a heavy boolit for each caliber. But even my hard head finally gave up the ghost on it, and its fine for me because 'normal' weights perform great for me.

I like that I am saving some lead too, and a little cartilage, a little less wear on the iron. Heavies do have applications though, usually they are made for a particular rifle that chambered and rifled for them. It was an experiment that I failed, I moved on. John makes some good points in the article its worth a read, even if you have your mind made up, and things are working like you want them to.

Your mileage may vary!

[shdwlkr]

I haven't read the article but from what has been written here I have to say that yes you can get to heavy a bullet for a given caliber.
Me I use 160-180 grain lead in my 38 special and 357 mag and not I don't hot load. I use a heavy 255 grain lead in my 44 special and have to try a 350 grain in my 375 winchester and have the mold for a 300 grain in that caliber. Some might say it is to heavy but you have to step back and look at the distance I am shooting those heavy bullets and how fast and the firearm I am using.
As to gun writers they all have something useful to tell you, sometimes you have to read more carefully to find it but it is there all the same.
I want to build a 256 win mag and will use 65,75, 88 grain bullets in it and never hot load it but I know the range I will use it for with each bullet and even how fast I want it fly.
I load my 45-70 with 425 grain bullets and don't hot load so I can shoot more of them.
I think you have to understand the caliber, firearm, bullet and what you expect it to do for you and what it can do for you within safety limits.
I personally can't shoot a magnum rifle worth a darn so I don't own any and stick to standard calibers and in calibers that interest me and that is what excites me. I pay attention to pressure limits and shoulder limits and that is the only things I pay attention to when selecting a bullet in a given caliber and given firearm.

[NHlever]

The circle goes round, and round. Many of us have lived through the "Wonder9" stage, now it's AR's, and heavy boolits. Once you have fully penetrated the game sought with a given diameter boolit, you have done all that caliber is going to do for you. I read once that a 158 SWC out of a .357 revolver at 1100 fps will do all that caliber will do, and I think that author had a point. I did try the Lee 300 grain .45 caliber boolit, and was impressed by it, but I couldn't get it to fly very well past 50 yards out of my handgun. I thought stability was more important than weight so I haven't used that mold for a few years now. Of course now I can't see much beyond 50 yards so it may become useful again at some point. :D :D

[44man]

All of my revolvers today are for hunting so the heavier boolits give me more penetration at the proper velocities for internal damage.
When I shot IHMSA with the .357 Max, I went heavy to knock rams down, a 50# hunk of steel can stand and laugh with a light bullet.
All of my .44 loads used 240 gr and they were deadly accurate.
It depends on what the rifling twist will support and heavy needs a certain velocity. If you get carried away like some that shoot 700 gr boolits with a .500, velocity for stability will never be reached.
I bought some LBT 335 gr boolits from Cast Performance for my .45 Vaquero and also the 325 gr Lyman mold. That Lyman drops boolits at 347 gr. Both have done 1" at 75 yards and I have dropped deer to a little over 100. That with the funny sights from Creedmore position, I can NOT shoot open sights from sand bags because I need a few more feet on my arms! :drinks:
I like the 320 gr LBT and the Lee 310 for the .44 Ruger. I made a mold for the LBT style and changed the nose to match my forcing cone, the darn thing came out 330 gr. It turns out to be deadly and Bioman gets 1/2" groups at 50 yards with his new SBH Hunter and an Ultra Dot. It NEEDS 21 gr of 296. I don't know the velocity but it is near 1300 to 1320 fps.
I know this is a tired old picture but I wanted to see the drop at 200 using my 75 yard setting. I shot just 3 and got a 1-5/16" group.
As long as you have stability with the twist, heavy is no problem, just don't go too heavy or you can't spin up the boolit.
And do not expect to shoot these at 800 fps, ain't going to happen!
I have no problems shooting beer cans and empty spray paint cans at 200 yards with the WLN and WFN boolits. I can miss, the boolits won't! :mrgreen:
Is there anything wrong with lighter boolits? NO, but you will have accuracy problems if you go real light too. I will never go under 240 for the .44.

[LAH]

All of my revolvers today are for hunting so the heavier boolits give me more penetration at the proper velocities for internal damage.
When I shot IHMSA with the .357 Max, I went heavy to knock rams down, a 50# hunk of steel can stand and laugh with a light bullet.
All of my .44 loads used 240 gr and they were deadly accurate.
It depends on what the rifling twist will support and heavy needs a certain velocity. If you get carried away like some that shoot 700 gr boolits with a .500, velocity for stability will never be reached.
I bought some LBT 335 gr boolits from Cast Performance for my .45 Vaquero and also the 325 gr Lyman mold. That Lyman drops boolits at 347 gr. Both have done 1" at 75 yards and I have dropped deer to a little over 100. That with the funny sights from Creedmore position, I can NOT shoot open sights from sand bags because I need a few more feet on my arms! :drinks:
I like the 320 gr LBT and the Lee 310 for the .44 Ruger. I made a mold for the LBT style and changed the nose to match my forcing cone, the darn thing came out 330 gr. It turns out to be deadly and Bioman gets 1/2" groups at 50 yards with his new SBH Hunter and an Ultra Dot. It NEEDS 21 gr of 296. I don't know the velocity but it is near 1300 to 1320 fps.
I know this is a tired old picture but I wanted to see the drop at 200 using my 75 yard setting. I shot just 3 and got a 1-5/16" group.
As long as you have stability with the twist, heavy is no problem, just don't go too heavy or you can't spin up the boolit.
And do not expect to shoot these at 800 fps, ain't going to happen!
I have no problems shooting beer cans and empty spray paint cans at 200 yards with the WLN and WFN boolits. I can miss, the boolits won't! :mrgreen:
Is there anything wrong with lighter boolits? NO, but you will have accuracy problems if you go real light too. I will never go under 240 for the .44.

And how much drop did you get?

[44man]

The circle goes round, and round. Many of us have lived through the "Wonder9" stage, now it's AR's, and heavy boolits. Once you have fully penetrated the game sought with a given diameter boolit, you have done all that caliber is going to do for you. I read once that a 158 SWC out of a .357 revolver at 1100 fps will do all that caliber will do, and I think that author had a point. I did try the Lee 300 grain .45 caliber boolit, and was impressed by it, but I couldn't get it to fly very well past 50 yards out of my handgun. I thought stability was more important than weight so I haven't used that mold for a few years now. Of course now I can't see much beyond 50 yards so it may become useful again at some point. :D :D
I have another tired old picture shot with my .45 Vaquero at 50 yards. Someone here said the heavy FN boolits go to pot at 50 yards. I grabbed 5 loads and went down to my range and shot these from Creedmore. Sort of an instant response to a post.
This was with the 347 gr Lyman boolit (Supposed to be 325.)
Yep, unlike some others, if you say something, I will go right down and shoot what you claim works or does not work.
I have actually shot some better groups then this at 75 yards but I did not have a camera. I wish I would have saved the targets.
The next target is with the Lee 300 gr boolit at 50 yards.

[44man]

And how much drop did you get?
Kind of hard to figure because of the amount the red dot covers. My best guess was 35".
The boolit is not very low at 100 but then starts to drop fast. It is easy to shoot deer at 100.
My .475 drops around 18" and the 45-70 is about 16".
Whitworth was out and after sighting his .500 JRH I set a beer can at 100. He shot and the can did not fall so I took the next shot and the can fell. This is what we found from a 440 gr WFN that I made the mold for.
Then we did the exact same thing with my .475 and my 420 gr WFN. And finally a can I shot twice with the .475 at 100.
Hey, don't shoot those WFN boolits, they suck, you need a Keith! :veryconfu:veryconfu

[44man]

And how much drop did you get?
Yes, I get revolvers to shoot as good as a rifle clear to 500 meters but notice the BASHING, BASHING I get!
When I started to show what a revolver can do and explain how, I was kicked off the Single Action site because Taffin and his bunch were hurt.
We have a few here but I really do like them, they are nice guys, unlike on the other sites. We will forever have little disputes and that is fine.
Never get caught up or get angry, just test and do the work.
If we lived close together, do know what a great BBQ we could have? :drinks:

[bowfin]

Yep, unlike some others, if you say something, I will go right down and shoot what you claim works or does not work.

That's called "unlimited free time" and yes, unlike some of us others, you must have it and a lot of us don't.

A peeing contest with you might come to the forefront after I get the wood duck boxes up (which will be after I fell the cedar trees for the posts), grass carp and koi stocked for vegetation control, my chapel service ready for the homeless shelter, watch two track meets, send a boy off on a musical tour to Branson, run the coonhound, clean the local club cabin, make targets for the Youth BB gun league, clean up the trap range and well, you know, just life outside of this forum. Oh, and a job is worked in there as well.

So, if I don't post dozens of pictures of targets shot with freshly cast bullets loaded tomorrow morning (Keith, heavy, light, whatever you don't shoot), don't think it is because I am a keyboard shooter dodging your challenges and worthy nothing more than to be a target of your snide remarks. It's just that you are awful far down on the list right now.

I can pencil in any of your challenges somewhere between looking at colleges and getting a new trigger in the Mannlicher Schoenauer, which won't be this week...or next...late June looks fairly promising, if I can get the Savage 99 sighted in and the ammo shoots okay beforehand.

I know I am a relative newcomer and you aren't, but I don't need to make 9,000 posts to recognize when someone is copping an attitude with me and others. Lose that smug attitude and the "BASHING, BASHING" you get might subside somewhat.

My apologies to those who suffered through this post and to the moderators. I'll avoid any more unpleasantness with 44man and he can have the last word.

[cajun shooter]

Bret 4207 sent me a PM and after I read it and also saw his posting explaining what he meant to convey when he posted it. I am here in front of this forum to extend a apology to Bret. We had been on good terms for a few years and I misunderstood his meaning. Sometimes when you don't hear the words spoken they may take on a different meaning. I extend my right hand and say let us have a new beginning. I have never cared for Taffin although I wish him well in his illness. I am sincere with this posting. Later David

[epj]

I'm too frugal to cast heavy for caliber. In addition, I'm not what I would call recoil sensitive, never have been. As I get older and my joints get worse, I appreciate a lighter boolit and in some cases a little less powder too!

[Bret4207]

Thanks Dave, and I'm sorry I wasn't as clear as needed.

[44man]

That's called "unlimited free time" and yes, unlike some of us others, you must have it and a lot of us don't.

A peeing contest with you might come to the forefront after I get the wood duck boxes up (which will be after I fell the cedar trees for the posts), grass carp and koi stocked for vegetation control, my chapel service ready for the homeless shelter, watch two track meets, send a boy off on a musical tour to Branson, run the coonhound, clean the local club cabin, make targets for the Youth BB gun league, clean up the trap range and well, you know, just life outside of this forum. Oh, and a job is worked in there as well.

So, if I don't post dozens of pictures of targets shot with freshly cast bullets loaded tomorrow morning (Keith, heavy, light, whatever you don't shoot), don't think it is because I am a keyboard shooter dodging your challenges and worthy nothing more than to be a target of your snide remarks. It's just that you are awful far down on the list right now.

I can pencil in any of your challenges somewhere between looking at colleges and getting a new trigger in the Mannlicher Schoenauer, which won't be this week...or next...late June looks fairly promising, if I can get the Savage 99 sighted in and the ammo shoots okay beforehand.

I know I am a relative newcomer and you aren't, but I don't need to make 9,000 posts to recognize when someone is copping an attitude with me and others. Lose that smug attitude and the "BASHING, BASHING" you get might subside somewhat.

My apologies to those who suffered through this post and to the moderators. I'll avoid any more unpleasantness with 44man and he can have the last word.
No one understands! It is NEVER a challenge I ask for, just proof about a certain boolit. I have explained a thousand times that I don't care how anyone shoots, just make those comparisons. I don't care if you put the gun in a vise or use a Ransom Rest.
Boolits against boolits but it is hard to read just words and see what actually was shot.
I bought molds and made some that the boolits suck and I can't do a thing with them. I show those that DO work and it is a waste of time and lead for me to fool with a bad boolit. That mold gets tossed to the back of the drawer. I have blocks that I removed everything from until I figure how to cut a larger boolit and make use of the aluminum. I have many failures and I refuse to tell anyone I can make them shoot. I CAN'T!
I am not being smug, I show what has worked best. I send boolits that work to a few to have molds made but on SS postage hurts. I promised more to others but money is tight, I lost another $648 this year after losing $6600 a year, earlier. The PBGC took over my retirement shortly after I retired.
It is not a game, it is to find what works, all the time for anyone. If I told you I could shoot 1" groups from every gun at 100 yards using a Keith, you better believe I am lying about it. To shoot dead soft lead at 1400 fps from a revolver would be another lie.
Are you game to test just boolits or do you think I am "challenging" your shooting? Forget that junk!
I have worked awful hard to make a revolver shoot and thought I could pass on everything.
Just what else would I have to do to show a revolver is great if you feed it right? Maybe I should never post another picture--- too disturbing.
Nobody has commented that both Whitworth and Bioman do the same as I do and understand that accuracy is first.
If you can't shoot groups like we do, ARE YOU LOADING IT WRONG OR USING THE WRONG BOOLIT? Just prove your boolit works.
I like the one where a guy will not buy a camera and here I am with almost no money and a cheap Kodak to show you stuff. Oh my, what an excuse!
Sorry moderators, I do my best to help so tell me what to do. Should I become a "lurker."

[45 2.1]

I like the one where a guy will not buy a camera and here I am with almost no money and a cheap Kodak to show you stuff. Oh my, what an excuse!
Sorry moderators, I do my best to help so tell me what to do. Should I become a "lurker."

From the guy with no digital camera................. what would really help is an attitude adjustment. Yours ain't the only way..........deal with it.

[44man]

From the guy with no digital camera................. what would really help is an attitude adjustment. Yours ain't the only way..........deal with it.
No excuse, they are dirt cheap today. Go buy one.

[45 2.1]

No excuse, they are dirt cheap today. Go buy one.


No Thanks............ I've already experienced what happens to people here that post unbelievable things. It's not worth the effort.

:coffeecom:coffeecom:coffeecom:coffeecom:mrgreen:

[44man]

No Thanks............ I've already experienced what happens to people here that post unbelievable things. It's not worth the effort.

:coffeecom:coffeecom:coffeecom:coffeecom:mrgreen:
True, I will leave you off the hook. Nobody believes what we do anyway. I mentioned Whitworth and Bioman but neglected Frank, all the way in Kalifornia that is shooting some fine groups.
I would feel bad if you got bashed for posting tiny groups. [smilie=s:
Not that you can't shoot, but because you use the wrong stuff of course. Anyone can learn to shoot but nobody can shoot poor stuff.
If your loads shoot 3" at 50 yards, no one on earth can better that with your gun. Only luck can better it and I don't want luck pictures.
I have had women here that never shot a gun at all. My .22 pistol will poke almost one hole at 25 yards. I show them safety and shooting techniques and they are fantastic. Smiles all around and you will not believe how they will go through ammo. None of them would be afraid to post group pictures!
Is it the shooter or the gun? The shooter would do nothing if the gun shot 5" groups at 25.
Sorry, accuracy first. You deny my shooting because your guns can not do it--or is it what you load? Are you REALLY telling me and my friends that we lie?
Just how low can you stoop?

[Bret4207]

Not so low that I'd expect people to buy my line about hitting a woodchuck on a dead run off hand at 550 yards with an open sighted revolver. You got Elmer and O'Connor both beat by a mile, or at least 550 yards...

[Suo Gan]

And so goes the heavy vs. normal argument.

You need to have larger shoulders than a 35 rem to stand the fire...which was not that hot to begin with. You're doing fine. Keep posting pictures and commenting with your experiences, I think all of us want that sort of good thing around here.

[44man]

Not so low that I'd expect people to buy my line about hitting a woodchuck on a dead run off hand at 550 yards with an open sighted revolver. You got Elmer and O'Connor both beat by a mile, or at least 550 yards...
Well see, you believe nothing. It did happen and I had two witnesses that paced the distance with me and I take a 3' pace. I took hair off of it because it was all we found.
Pure luck? darn tootin it was!
If you would have said you did it, would I believe you? Yes I would, why would I call you a liar?
I would say there are a lot of guys here that made some real silly shots yet are afraid to post about it because they would be called bad things forever.
I stated a fact and never would claim I that do it all the time, it was a one time luck shot. Throw a cocked gun on the bench enough times and a boolit will eventually hit something! :bigsmyl2:
That's my story and I stick with it.