Heat treat or water quench ?

[Goat]

I do not know if this is even the right place to ask. I have just purchased most of the stuff for me to start cating and as such am VERY new. Do water quenching and heat treating accomplish the same purpose with a cast bullet or are they done for different reasons? I think they are both done to harden the bullet but do not know. I will initially be casting for the 38/55 and the 32/20. Both are Marlins with the 38/55 being a JES rebore. I have molds for both gaschecked and plain based bullets now in my possesion. The more that I learn about casting the more I realize I do not know. I hope to develop hunting loads for the 38/55 by deer season this fall with my own bullets. I know it is not necessary but hope to get them in the 1600-1700fps range if I can do so without leading. I would be willing to slow down just a bit if I need to to get a bullet with expansion. I know with the large flat nose it may not be needed but I hunt thick stuff and if the deer doesn't fall right there I want LOTS of blood to follow. Please share with me what I need to know. Thanks
Goat

[giz189]

Hey Goat, just my thinking as this is what I do with my cast boolits that I use for hunting. I would start with air cooled wheel weight with a gas check and work up from there. You may need them a little tougher and you may not. Just where I started. Ricky

[excess650]

Quenching directly from the mold and using an oven to reheat and drop into water to quench accomplish the same purpose.

I have a Marlin 1894CL in 32-20 and have only shot plaibase from it. I think the twist is 1-20" so pretty kind to plainbase. My 38-55 is a rebore that was done 1-12". While I had specified 1-16" so as to be closer to the original 1-18" twist, the 1-12" works great with GC. 1600-1700fps will be easy with GC, and they won't need to be harder than aircooled WW.

I use the Lyman 375449 280gr with 26gr Reloader 7, 28-30gr AA2015, or 30-32gr AA2200. These are not hot loads, but not recomended for old, weak blackpowder actions.

[RobS]

Here is a great read for you as it pertains to alloys and even heat treating (towards the bottom).

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

I would start with an air cooled GC boolit and go from there. I say a GC design as it will make for easier load development however a plain base is definately something that can be done equally well with all your ducks in a row.

[quilbilly]

Just for fun you might try an experiment with your 32-20 and whatever lead you are using particularly if you plan to hunt with it. Get enough phone books for a stack 18" high, put them in a box and wet them down thoroughly. From 30-40 yards test a couple rounds of untreated and a couple rounds of water quenched. Look at the penetration and the effect on the bullet. Go forward from there.
My 32-20 with a gas checked CB at 1450 fps MV got 16" of penetration but I also put a piece of 1/8 inch veneer in the stack 3 inches in to simulate a bone. The almost pure soft lead with a little tin added mushroomed nicely. That 32-20 is now my "go-to" gun for varmints up to 100 pounds at less than 100 yards.

[frankenfab]

I have found that water quenching WW metal makes the boolits too hard for hunting.

But, if the boolit .512 inches in diameter, it cuts a big enough hole when placed in the right spot on an amimal that it doesn't matter what the boolit is made of.

And I'm just talking mild plaeasant loads...........

Call me the 2011 version of the .44 Special fanatic.:cbpour:

Down with the .500 Smith and Wesson! All hail the .500 Linebaugh!

[GabbyM]

38-55's are great cast shooters. Most will shoot a bullet of soft enough alloy to expand upon impact. Pictured bullet is air cooled IIRC about BHN #8 fired from a single shot with a 375 Win Load strength of 3031. I cast this one from Saeco 255 grain mould for our member LoneWolf. It went through a deer then into a tree where he dug it from. Deer dropped in it's tracks.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=32&pictureid=3597

[Bret4207]

Start with AC and see where it takes you. Do yourself and favor and concentrate on learning to cast good boolits first off, then work up your fit on the guns and make sure you write it all down.

[XWrench3]

i used to water drop all my boolits. now i know better. to me, i am not going to mess with heat treating (mostly because the only way i have of doing it is in the same oven we cook with, and i beleive this to be a vert strict no-no). if i want hard boolits, i will water drop them. which i do with some of my 1/2 linotype rifle loads. but for pistol shooting, and low speed plinkers from the rifles, i just air cool the w.w.'s i cast. they seem to work better than the hard ones. playing around with lubes is also very helpfull.

[44man]

With the smaller calibers I would not water drop for hunting but it is fine for target work. Air cooled WW's would be a start but still might get too hard with time.
The best place to start for hunting would be 50-50 WW and pure and WATER DROP them to make them tough enough for accuracy but the best will have a gas check. These will still expand. I feel this mix is too soft for a PB and will lose accuracy.
If you get fliers, reduce the pure lead but continue to water drop until you get close to straight WW metal. You need to find a balance of expansion with penetration.
This is where it gets sticky, nobody knows what is in their WW's! :roll:
I have some WW boolits here that REFUSE to harden even after an hour in the oven at 430*, then quenched. I think they were recycled with too many stick on weights. That can cause all WW information to fly out the window! [smilie=1: You really need a BHN tester and the LBT is the easiest to use. Good WW metal will water drop and age harden to 22 BHN.
Those softer boolits I have would be perfect for deer but require a gas check.
This is what a GC boolit that is too soft will do at 50 yards. 3 in one hole and 2 fliers. If I could get them harder, I could punch one hole. This is not bad for hunting but it will reduce range.
You can see why a simple question is so hard to answer.

[btroj]

I am with Bret. Learn to cast good bullets first, then worry the small stuff. See what your gun like or doesn't like. Every gun has a different opinion of "right".
Learn to cast and load your bullets. Start with lighter loads, see how they do, and then work up. Observe what does or does not work. This is how you learn.

Brad

[1Shirt]

Yep, casting, and loading and shooting is a learning game. Been at it for over 50 years and still learning. All rifles and handguns have personalities!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[44man]

I am with Bret. Learn to cast good bullets first, then worry the small stuff. See what your gun like or doesn't like. Every gun has a different opinion of "right".
Learn to cast and load your bullets. Start with lighter loads, see how they do, and then work up. Observe what does or does not work. This is how you learn.

Brad
I have to agree with you and Bret but making good boolits and finding accuracy is the easy part. [smilie=l: Well some might not think so but I will leave that alone! :bigsmyl2:
Getting results on game is really where the work starts. All the different metals, calibers, distances and velocities is what the shooter has to work out for himself by seeing what happens with every animal and every location of the boolit placement.
I never have a rest with my revolvers and shots to 100 yards can vary placement because no matter how good I make the shot---well, you guys know! [smilie=s:
I try to make the point that a shot behind the shoulder for double lungs is different then a shoulder shot that breaks the deer down. It will always be best to have a boolit that will work with any hit.
Too many say placement is the key but I bet they have a rest or the animals are close. Many of mine are shot off hand when walking at unknown distances or at running deer. Others are shot at all kinds of angles from a tree stand, even behind me.
With about 400 deer kills, I have never mastered that secret of perfect placement so I will never tell anyone that. Maybe 3 of those deer were shot from some kind of rest.
What I have learned and am still learning, is what a boolit does in the animal. I want complete penetration, low meat loss, internal destruction, accuracy and results from both shoulder and lung shots.
That is a big order and when everything else about the gun used changes, so does what you need to change with the boolit.
The only guns that never, ever need any work are my round ball muzzle loaders.

[felix]

Yep, Jim, you got that right! Muzzle/breech loaders don't half the number of point failures that repeaters (of any form) have. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Well, 44 and i agree on the subject of shots on game. That's a whole 'nuther game beyond getting accuracy and otherwise good performance. No matter how fast or slow you shoot a boolit at game expansion is an iffy thing as far as I'm concerned. I've seen zero expansion where I thought I would have had plenty and lots where I thought the alloy was too hard to expand and speed too low to initiate it. So I tend to favor a FN, SWC or very blunt RN of adequate weight and velocity to carry it well into the vitals and preferably through and through. 2 holes bleed more than one hole and I can use all the tracking help I can get.

That being said, I still see a tendency to over power our deer. Really, a 150-200 gr FN/SWC boolit at at least 11-1200 fps will very often give complete penetration on broadside shots on deer up to 150-170 lbs live weight. A 120 gr fn boolit at 1500 fps in straight WW will go through a 60 lbs coyote on a broadside and to the diaphragm at least on a frontal shot. An 8mmx250gr boolit at 1600-1650 fps will travel the length of a 1 ton horse carcass if no bone is hit. So with observations like those (and qualifying that with the knowledge anything can go wrong) I wonder at the people who feel they need "magnum" type cast loads, especially in rifles. I equate it to the guys who feel they have to have a 300 or 338 magnum to shoot deer at 100 yards. I can see a magnum for those that take the Hail Mary 250-400+ yard shots across a field, but otherwise I wonder if some of it isn't machismo or faith in a false belief creeping in.

[44man]

Bret, that was said very well! :drinks:

[btroj]

What Bret? Ego? Amongst hunters? You think that is why so many use a 300 win mag on deer? I always thought it was to penetrate the 6 inch thick hide, 12 inches of tough muscle, and then attempt to damage even slightly the armor plated heart and lungs!

I got burned this year on deer by poor penetration. hollow point that was too hard and too fast. Never again. I will stick with a nice, flat nosed, heavy bullet at moderate velocity. Plenty of wound and it will always get thru.

Brad

[1Shirt]

Yep, agree with you 44 Man on what Bret wrote. I have for a long time said, that Weatherbyitis screwed up the minds of many many shooters. There may be a place for the Weatherby syndrom, but durned if I can see it for deer. :coffee:

Game was being shot dead in its tracks long before Roy Weatherby and his ilk showed up! Never had much use for Roy Weatherby by the way in case you didn't know.
1Shirt!:brokenima

[44man]

Yep, agree with you 44 Man on what Bret wrote. I have for a long time said, that Weatherbyitis screwed up the minds of many many shooters. There may be a place for the Weatherby syndrom, but durned if I can see it for deer. :coffee:

Game was being shot dead in its tracks long before Roy Weatherby and his ilk showed up! Never had much use for Roy Weatherby by the way in case you didn't know.
1Shirt!:brokenima
I have nothing against Roy because his calibers had a different use. Flat shooting, ultra long range hunting. They are great calibers when used properly. Every single caliber has a use but it is where you fit it that is the problem.
Around here, a rifle hunter will do everything with a 30-30 yet we have hunters shooting deer at 20 to 50 yards with a 7mm mag or .300 mag!!!!!:holysheep They lose a ton of deer every season. Those they find are destroyed.
The very worst thing I see is when a yo-yo uses a very powerful rifle and shoots at a deer and it runs off. He figures a deer should drop at the shot so he lets it run off without looking for it. I found 12 dead deer on one property alone.
All of us here are the very top as far as hunting. If you take a shot at an animal, all hunting stops until you are sure 100% that it was a miss and we all will never give up until we are sure the animal can't be found.
I can not be against the developments in guns, only those that use them wrong.

[badbob454]

Water quenched ww's and a wide met-plate, flatt-point hard to go through tough game and bone . Wide flatt-point to tear em up , and will hold up to accuracy up to 1600-1700 fps with a plain base ............good shooting , ps seconds on testing with phone book a good idea to test them

[grouch]

It seems to me that at the velocities under discussion(1600 - 1800) you might do better with 18:1 to 20:1 for expansion and very likely for accuracy too.
Grouch

[Char-Gar]

The whole notion of tempering with heat wheel weight metal came about as a means for rifle shooters to use a hard alloy, like Linotype without the expensve. It was a cost cutting measure and nothing more.

As you noted there are two ways of doing this;

1. Oven heating and quenching
2. Droping the hot bullet directly from the mold into water.

Of the two methodis, oven heating and quenching will produce a more even temper and for high performance loads will give better accuracy. We are talking rifles here.

The real question is when and if, we need superhard alloys like linotype of tempered WW? It is at this point that recent casters have pretty much gone to seed on water droppd ww bullets.

Such water dropped bullet first made a commercial appearance IIRC in the smash em dead 45-70 loads by Garrett. He used water dropped bullets instead of Linotype, because it was much cheaper and the bullets were heavier, than if cast of Linotype. In his theory, he wanted the heavest possible weight combined with hardness for penetration, for deep bone breaking penetration on large and/or dangerous game animals.

When it came to handgun bullets Elmer Keith thoughts bullets for the 44 Magnum should be hard cast. This was to prevent the pressure from causing the bullet to accordian and to give deep penetration on Elk, Moose, and big Bear. His notion of "hard" was the binary alloy of 1-16 (tin to lead) by todays standards this is butter soft. Most sixgun bullets were cast from 1-30 or even 1-40, so that made 1-16 seem hard indeed.

When Ray Tompson developed his gas check bullet for the 44 Magnum, he shot and recovered bullets over snow and came to almost the same conclusion as Keith. To prevent the bullets from compressing he found an alloy of 1-20 (again tin to lead) to be the minimum hardness.

Fast forward to present days and shooters read the term "hard cast" and thought that meant, really really hard and commerical casters were glad to pander to that notion by selling "hard cast", of the old Taracorp magnum alloy.

Home casters being every the frugal sort (that is one of the reasons we cast, right?) decided they could get really hard bullets by water dropping. Thus was born the frenzy to water drop everyting that could be melted and cast in a bullet mold. Although it needs to be said, that to temper at all, an alloy needs a farily high antimony content.

As time marches on, many, through experience, found that that really, really hard bullets often cause more problem than they solve. Others have yet to break the code on that. Very hard bullets do have a place, but that place is much smaller than most think.

In my experience air cooled WW makes dandy hangun bullets and with a gas check make great rifles bullets up to about 2K fps or so. For super dooper magnum handgun loads and or rifles loads above 2K fps, I have found that old Lyman No. 2 is perfect. I have a butt load of linotype, but I use it to mix No. 2.

PS: I started deer hunting in the late 50s with the then new 243 Winchester and had very good sucess. But all of the gun rags extoled the greatness of the 300 Weatherby. So I had to sell the .243 and buy a 300 Weatherby. In 1961, I shot a Texas Hill Country Whitetail with the 300 Weatherby. It only took me one dead deer to realized just how stupid I was. I sold the Weatherby and bought a another Winchester 70 ,again in .243 Winchester, which was my deer rifle for the next 20 years and still rests in my gun safe.

[44man]

I have to agree with much of this. Once fliers go away for group shooting, a harder boolit is not the answer. I will put up with fliers for hunting if the alloy is right.
Tin has such a little hardening affect that any lead-tin alloy should be considered dead soft as far as rifling grip is concerned. Shot right, it is great for any game but smokeless powder has too much initial punch.
I have tried many of the store bought hard boolits and they suck.
We must work somewhere in between and that changes for every gun and caliber.
It is so very hard to reach maximum accuracy and still have the desired results on all sizes of animals that it boggles the mind.
I have learned a lot but it is a drop in the bucket in the end.
I only know what to do with each of my guns and where they start to fail and where they work best. This is what everyone needs to do and you will not find it in a book.
Those that can't do the work or shoot enough animals because they just don't have the time are better served with jacketed bullets or factory loads. Making cast work is not easy, it takes devotion and experience.
Shooting nothing but elk or bear is different then shooting deer too, so what you use is going to be different.
Change velocity and you better look for a boolit change. If you think the same boolit will work from 800 to 2400 fps, you must be good at cracking jokes.

[Char-Gar]

Much of this stuff is relative to what one's notion of an "accurate load" is. When it comes to rifles, I expect all of the accuracy the rifle has to give. I have no trouble putting together ammo that will give MOA groups if the rifle has that to give. In one rifle .75 MOA is easy to come by.

When it comes to handguns, my standards are much less. I grew up in the day when hunters who used a handgun as a primary weapon, were as rare as eyebrows on eggs. Those who carried handguns, did so as a backup to the rifle and used them at relative short ranges. I have killed a number of deer and a truck load of smaller critters with a handgun, but nothing over 50 yards. Therefore, I am happy as a clam at high tide with a load that will produce consistant round 3" groups at 50 yards. Even in my salad days I could not shoot a magnum sixgun better than that. I don't shoot hanguns off a rest. I sight in and shoot from a good field position.

I thought I would say the above, in the spirit of honesty, as often times folks talk on this board and they are talking about different things. This is what accuracy means to me. Most certainly it means something different to others.

[44man]

Much of this stuff is relative to what one's notion of an "accurate load" is. When it comes to rifles, I expect all of the accuracy the rifle has to give. I have no trouble putting together ammo that will give MOA groups if the rifle has that to give. In one rifle .75 MOA is easy to come by.

When it comes to handguns, my standards are much less. I grew up in the day when hunters who used a handgun as a primary weapon, were as rare as eyebrows on eggs. Those who carried handguns, did so as a backup to the rifle and used them at relative short ranges. I have killed a number of deer and a truck load of smaller critters with a handgun, but nothing over 50 yards. Therefore, I am happy as a clam at high tide with a load that will produce consistant round 3" groups at 50 yards. Even in my salad days I could not shoot a magnum sixgun better than that. I don't shoot hanguns off a rest. I sight in and shoot from a good field position.

I thought I would say the above, in the spirit of honesty, as often times folks talk on this board and they are talking about different things. This is what accuracy means to me. Most certainly it means something different to others.
Accuracy is a tainted word like hardness! :drinks: Everyone has needs that differ. My revolvers are my primary hunting guns so what I want is different again.
However I still want accuracy out to 500 meters even though I limit hunting to around 100 yards max.
But you have to know a boolit does different things at 100 yards then it does at 20 yards if the alloy is the same.
The hard part is to make a boolit work at these ranges and still maintain accuracy.
I am the first to say it is a tall order! :Fire:
Those that want under 1" at 100 with a rifle even though most deer are shot closer, yet don't care about the revolver is baffling to me.
It is even more important with a gun that can not be held still then it is with a rifle.
Revolver accuracy must include all the jiggles and shaking we do.