Cast in 458 Win Mag

[paborn]

I've enjoyed shooting various cast (300 to 405 grain) in a Marlin 1895 cowboy, and always wanted a big bore bollt gun to load with cast. Ran across a USRA classic 458 Win Mag Super Express (1998) new in the box that I thought would make a great big bore cast gun with reduced 350 to 500 grain loads. Bought the gun before I did my homework.
It is not a magnum mauser action, limiting the COL to 3.3 inches. It DOES have a standard SAAMI 458 Win Mag chamber that has 1.1 inch of freebore. To make matters worse, I didn't realize the SAMMI freebore is NOT close to groove diameter, but taper throated. It is impossible to size a bullet to fill the throat. Dropping a .460 sized cast into the chamber, it drops right down to the throat. Most of my molds, either by design or lapping drop at .460, and I lube and size to .460. The 300 and 350 grain are gas checked, the 400 is not. I'm looking to have made a 500 plus mold in order to seat to the longest OAL the magazine will hold. This m old will be .460 and have the longest .451 bore riding lenth I can design into it. Even with the longest nose exposed (estimated at 0.7 to 0.8) for the max OAL of 3.3, I'll still have a 0.3 inch jump to the throat.

I guess what I'm getting at is does anyone have experience with cast in the 458 Win Mag? Read some old posts where Buckshot suggested starch based packing peanuts to improve accuracy in dealing with the oversized freebore.

Any suggestions?

Paborn

[paborn]

Addition info is I normally cast with a Lyman #2 alloy, but have an ample supply of wheelweights, lino, lead, and tin so can make just about any mix. Velocity desired is in the 1600 to 2000 range. Applicable powders on hand are 2400, Unique, RL-7, 5744, and 3031.

I haven't loaded a round yet and am trying to develop a plan for my reloading. One of the advantages of the forum is that you can take advantage of the experience of other and don't have to re-invent the wheel.

Paborn

[LAH]

Not trying to be funny here but why don't you call one of the barrel companies & have one put on just like you want?

[LAH]

BTW here's one on this board, you could chamber it the way you want.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=109613

[paborn]

I really don't want to alter a nice New Haven Winchester 70. I like the controlled feed Winchester 70's, especially the New Haven production with the old trigger (not MOA). If I can get it to shoot I'd be a happy camper. If not, I'd sell it, take half the money and buy a zastava 458 Win Mag. That's a true magnum mauser action that allows an OAL of 3.6 which would allow heavy bullets to be seated out and be just short of the leade.

Trying to find out if anyone has made one of these shoot accurately with cast and how they dealt with the loooong funnel freebore.

[onondaga]

HI:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/coltsauer.jpg

My Colt Sauer .458 Win Mag. I shoot this rifle more than any other of my rifles and Hunt deer/bear with it. The bore slugs at .4570" groove to groove.

My bullet is the Lee .457-340-RN-F . With a WW:Lino alloy at 7:3 my bullets drop .459" and 329 grains at BHN14 hardness. I Shoot this bullet un-sized and lube with 45:45:10 tumble lube. My pet load chronographs at 1610 fps and groups less than 1 inch at 50 yd for myself or my grandson. This load kicks less than a 30-30 lever rifle in my 10 pound scoped Grand African rifle. This is a reduced load and I place BPI Original filler over the powder to 3/16" from the case mouth before seating the bullet.Do not substitute a different filler in this load. I get filler from:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=695248

Here is my pet hunting load:

Win Brass trimmed 2.495"
Lee 457-340-RN-F @ 329 gr/BHN14
53.3 gr. H4895 plus BPI Original filler to 3/16' from case mouth
Primer: CCI 200
LOA: 3.125"
Lee factory crimp die .003" crimp.

Ballistics charted for this load:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/458Bal.jpg

Note the bullet path is when sighted in 2 in high at 50 Yd and also 1/2 ton energy remaining at 200 yd.

I have used 2 other loads with the same bullet and filler method, These are slightly different in velocity and slightly less accurate:

37.1 grains Accurate 5744 + BPI - 1558Fps
52.7 grains Rel#7 + BPI - 1812 fps

WARNING! the Rel #7 load without filler will definitely detonate.



Gary

[swheeler]

"WARNING! the Rel #7 load without filler will definitely detonate."????
So you tried it and had a detonation? Glad you survived! I would have suspected hangfire, delayed ignition without a filler as a possibility, but detonation.

[onondaga]

I took 3 shots with that load and no filler. First shot was a hang fire, second shot seemed OK , third shot detonated with a 20 foot fireball muzzle flash and extreme report. That was a first for me. The range master immediately came over and advised me to disassemble the rest of the rounds with that load. I did. I had little experience with selecting powders for reduced loads at that time and underestimated the need for fillers with loads below listed minimum recommendations from powder companies. I also had a 60 gr load with Rel #7 and no filler that squibbed and left the bullet mid-bore.

Rel #7 likes pressure during ignition, and filler with crimped bullets will give that powder what it likes to fire well with cast bullets. Rel #7 is much more forgiving with jacketed bullets and higher pressures in the .458 Win Mag

It was a bunch of years ago when I first got the Colt Sauer Grand African. The barter came with the rifle, hard case and 100 factory loads of Browning Safari ammo with 510 gr bullets. The third shot with those hot factory loads dislocated and broke my second finger behind the trigger guard. So I started experimenting with reduced loads after my hand healed. I have had 100% ignition and no problems for over 4000 rounds since that detonation and squibb. I studied up and learned.

Gary

[swheeler]

"third shot detonated with a 20 foot fireball muzzle flash and extreme report."

I think terminology is being misused. 20 foot muzzle flash sounds like fuel still burning outside the barrel. Every time someone has a hangfire it's called detonation or SEE anymore, the gun didn't detonate/explode, you're still shooting it!

[onondaga]

Correct, the powder detonated as it exited the muzzle. There was partial ignition that drove the remainder of powder out of the muzzle where it discontinued burning and detonated in the air. There is more than one kind of detonation. This was definitely a detonation and not merely a flash. The report was well beyond normal gunfire in loudness and the shock wave was profound to bystanders and the range-master that was knocked out of his chair from the blast. Not all muzzle flashes detonate, but some do. This is what happened to me. Certainly an in-chamber detonation would have been much more serious and destructive, this was an external detonation.

The term detonation refers to the high speed shock wave typical of high explosives, however, propellants can and do detonate under certain circumstances. The term detonation has no requirement that gun parts be involved at all. There have been wheat flour detonations at a mill in my area. No firearms were involved.

There was no damage to my rifle.

The round that squibbed on a different occasion was more of a problem. Upon shell extraction, the powder charge went into the receiver and trigger assembly requiring extensive cleaning and the lodged bullet had to be rammed out of the barrel.

My terminology is fine. I hope your understanding is expanded.

Gary

[stubshaft]

I've had a couple of similar episodes with old WW factory loads using the 510 SP. The difference was that the charge was so tightly compressed that it would stick in the barrel (leaving a hardened clump of powder) or exit and sound more like a hollow boom than the crack of a high power rifle. I ended up pulling the bullets and couldn't even dig the powder out of the cases (looked like 3031). Luckily I only had one box of 20, since I wasn't too keen on blue tips at the time.

[onondaga]

Rel #7 is a Double Base propellant, that means that in addition to the Nitrocellulose particles themselves, the particles are coated with Nitroglycerin. I have learned to believe that Double Base powders are slightly more prone to detonation in reduced loads than Single Base propellants due to airspace in reduced loads. I don't recommend Rel #7 in reduced loads unless you have a thorough knowledge of ballistic fillers and use them correctly. Alliant Powder Co. doesn't recommend reduced loads below their recommended starting loads at all with Rel #7 in any caliber for this specific reason.

In general, the weight of a ballistic filler is added to the weight of the bullet for a total projectile weight when calculating powder charge, pressure safety, recoil and velocity because the filler is part of the projectile being fired.

This is why I said do not substitute a different filler in my pet load. Corn meal weighs about 4X as much as BPI Original, Precision Reloaders PRPSB filler weighs about 2X as much as BPI Original. Dacron fiber batting weighs considerably less than BPI original. I find less consistency in velocities with Dacron fillers and none of the other fillers provide a quasi-gas check effect to improve accuracy like BPI Original Filler has demonstrated to me. BPI Original is fine ground high-heat plastic particulate filler that is fluffy and can be easily compressed and it easily and consistently meters from my Lyman #55 powder measure or Lee scoops.

Gary

[swheeler]

My terminology is fine. I hope your understanding is expanded.

Gary
Dai Sensei you should just get rid of that rifle, it's too powerful for you, it hurt your finger. You should have been using a filler anyway, I do.

[pdawg_shooter]

I built my .458 on P14 action with a 1 in 22 twist Douglas barrel. Before I installed the barrel I run a throating reamer in to to cut the length of throat I wanted and a 11* taper into the rifling. This rifle has never seen a jacketed bullet and probably never will. A Lyman 451114 patched up to .460 with 16# paper over 80gr of H335 does everything I need to get done.

[onondaga]

The Colt Sauer is a darling to shoot. My ignorant incident was over 20 years ago. I am wiser now. It was my first big bore. The Colt Sauer Grand African has been referred to in literature as the finest production rifle ever made. I don't know about that but she is a beauty with a couple of features that really surprised me when I read the owners manual for the first time.

There is a loaded chamber indicator that protrudes from the receiver when a round is chambered. The bolt locks on safety, but there is a bolt lock release so the bolt can be opened without selecting the safety off. The African Bubinga Wood stock is the same wood the old Buck Knife handle scales are made of and the Rosewood forend and grip cap with ivory Colt Mustang inlay is adorable. My rifle came with 3 magazines, those magazines alone are more costly than some rifles I own and they work flawlessly. The rifle really shoots accurately for me and is a joy to field. The bore has the finest finish internal shine I have ever seen. The external metal finish is better and You can literally see your face in the shine.

Recoil with my deer/bear loads is comfortable for my 14 year old 118 pound grandson. I have learned to properly shoulder and fire the rifle with full power loads over the years but very rarely do so. I originally acquired the rifle as a backup for an Alaskan Musk Ox bow-hunting trip as insurance against Polar Bears that will stalk hunters. The guide service required a heavy rifle for protection.

Gary

[swheeler]

I built my .458 on P14 action with a 1 in 22 twist Douglas barrel. Before I installed the barrel I run a throating reamer in to to cut the length of throat I wanted and a 11* taper into the rifling. This rifle has never seen a jacketed bullet and probably never will. A Lyman 451114 patched up to .460 with 16# paper over 80gr of H335 does everything I need to get done.

PDS: Very smart way to get-r-done, eliminate that SAAMI throat, better alignment, help eliminate the bullet moving before powder has started to burn fully. My first was built on an FN military with a Wilson pre-fit 1:14 in 1988. Second has a pre-fit 16.5" barrel 1 in 14 on 98, and third is in works with A&B short chambered barrel, so they all have SAAMI throats. I do and have shot 500 gr Hornadys, FMC and soft points, RP 405 and lots of cast 450 and 500 gr. The 16.5 inch carbine is invigorating with 500 gr fmc and full load of 4895, but not unmanageable. One of my daughters shoots it regularly with cast bullets and loves it, the other won't touch it.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/Picture086.jpg

[swheeler]

You can tell Katie is a little apprehensive doing penetration testing on cottonwood stumps with 455 gr cast Gc at about 1850 fps. She weighs about 120 pounds and fired 20 rounds that day IIRC, a whole lot of 1400 fps loads get shot through it too, my 100 pound wife likes them better.

[Larry Gibson]

paborn

I don't have a .458 Win mag but have worked with cast bullet in several that belong to friends (yes, I have a couple:-D ) who have Win M70s such as yours. They were interested in close to full throttle practice loads so I cast up some Lyman 457483 and Lee C457-500-Fs. I cast them of WWs + 2% tin and WQ'd them. They were sized at .459 with Hornady GCs and Javelina lube. When loaded with the case mouth crimped in the crimp groove the rounds fit the magazines perfectly with a tudge to spare. My old notes say the aol was 3.145" for the dummy rounds I loaded. I don't know their loads as they all were very happy with the bullets I cast and now have the Lee mould casting their own. They report velocities of 2000 - 2150 fps with their loads and accuracy equal to jacketed loads. Two of them use their M70 .458s as "pole patch" rifles for elk with that bullet cast softer and pushing 1900 fps with H4895 if I recall correctly.

My point is; the throats of those rifles were never measured prior to load development and they shot fine. We just used what we had. I suggest you try the Lee C458-500-F, if you want a bullet that heavy, WQ the bullets out of the mould and size and lube to "as cast" diameter. You might be pleasantly pleased with you M70.

Larry Gibson

BTW; if you want a real "plinker" or small game bullet try the Rapine 460210HB. Mine drop at .464 and loaded over 6-7 gr Bullesye they should run 800 - 1000 fps and be a whole lot of fun. You could just TL with a light coat of LLA and shoot as cast, I do that in my original trapdoor.

[HangFireW8]

Detonation or S.E.E is when a propellant in deflagration transitions to a higher order of magnitude rate of decomposition. I have recorded and charted the data from multiple events from my own handloads in custom pressure barrels fitted with multiple pressure gauges. Basically pressure waves run up and down the chamber and sometimes collide, causing the peaks in pressure that can force the propellant at that point into detonation. These were my own handloads but not my own recipes, a little larger stuff than puny little 458WinMag- 105mm and 120mm. Uncle Sugar was footing the bill, of course.

You should see the crimping tool for the 105mm! Some of the guys used duct tape to hold their 120mm's together, but I took pride in my work.

Anyway, we also had our share of bad burns and other events. The end result of a detonation is somewhat sub-par velocities and an immediately retired barrel. The barrels would hold- we're talking the very finest of steel, here- but lost their elasticity and safety margin. But unlike a bad burn, there was no powder in the barrel, ready to drop into the breech and be a nuisance. (Not really a "powder" at that scale of things, but you know what I mean).

Anyway, a fireball outside of the barrel would very likely be the result of a partial burn, detonations usually consume all powder fairly efficiently.

[curator]

LBT's 460-420LFN-GC loaded over 65 grains (measure) of Triple 7 FFg lubed with SPG is awesome! 1870 fps. From my M70 .458 Win Mag. Plenty of recoil but good accuracy. I fired 50 of these until my shoulder wore out. No leading or fouling issues. 2 to 2 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards. LBT designs and moulds are the cat's meow for accuracy at "J" word velocities.

[swheeler]

"Anyway, a fireball outside of the barrel would very likely be the result of a partial burn, detonations usually consume all powder fairly efficiently." Sounds right to me

[ricksplace]

"Anyway, a fireball outside of the barrel would very likely be the result of a partial burn, detonations usually consume all powder fairly efficiently." Sounds right to me

sounds right to me too.

[Rafe Covington]

I shoot a 490 gr bullet in my Ruger 458 Win, getting about 1650 fps and very accurate using 5744. Theres not enough recoil to matter, fun to shoot.

Rafe:drinks:

[remy3424]

The third shot with those hot factory loads dislocated and broke my second finger behind the trigger guard. So I started experimenting with reduced loads after my hand healed.
Gary


I am not quite sure way I am reading this thread, but keep up the good work Gary. That above was worth reading this, I guess I maybe don't need a 458.

[HangFireW8]

I don't need one either. But, I want one.

[pdawg_shooter]

I am not quite sure way I am reading this thread, but keep up the good work Gary. That above was worth reading this, I guess I maybe don't need a 458.

Just what does "need" have to do with anything? If I went for need I would own a 12ga, a 22rf, and a 30-06. That would cover my need. Not the 36 firearms I now have. And there are still a number of others I "want."

[1Shirt]

Not knocking a 458, but with cast, I am very happy with my Ruger #1. Even with condoms it will approach the bottom level of 458.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Just Duke]

You guys have my attention.

[bigted]

kinda dissapointed in the loading data that i had hoped would be here. very good information tho on the process of filler and its need in big airy cases. nobody needs or wants any kind of education in the flesh with these results that threaten to ruin a gun or make a bad day for a shooter.

hoping that more cast loads would come from this but maybe not very many folks want or desire a 458WM cast shooter. personally i like the thought of a bolt 45-90 and scoped with modern glass to boot.

anybody??

[offshore44]

(snip)
hoping that more cast loads would come from this but maybe not very many folks want or desire a 458WM cast shooter. personally i like the thought of a bolt 45-90 and scoped with modern glass to boot.

anybody??

That is exactly why I bought my big CZ. After messing about with various cast loads using 350, 420 and 465 grn cast with various powders from Trail Boss to Varget, I started paper patching for the rifle. I don't use fillers, or wads. I might start to use milk jug wads if I can "create" a usable punch for milk jugs though. A shooter here has had great success with them. Wife and daughter loads with Gas Checked 350 grn bullets and Trail Boss are the cat's meow for plinking and very reduced recoil. Low end loads of 5744 and the 350 and 465 grain Gas Checked are just fine for reduced loads used for general purposes. 350, 420 and 465 grn paper patched bullets using H4895 loading data for J-word are the schnizzle for accuracy and all around utility. All of my load data comes from the powder manufacturers, or out of available load books. Velocity ranges from a low end of around 1,100 fps to a high end of 2,400 fps depending on bullet weight and powder. Don't even bother to try and dig a bullet out of the berm to see how they expand, you'll be there awhile digging. Penetration is more than adequate to say the least...I think that some loads will come close to going through a buffalo end for end.

Bullet set back on the rounds in the magazine are an issue with loads that develop more than very moderate recoil. Controlling neck tension and crimping are an absolute must unless you single load your cartridges.

Shooting cast from my 458 Win Mag CZ is quickly becoming my favorite rifle shooting hobby. I don't think there is a more flexible cartridge out there.

[LAH]

I've only fired a few rounds of 458 cast from a friends No.1 & his M77. He used IMR 4895 if memory serves. If I had a 458 I would start with 5744 powder simply because it works great in the 45/70.

[XWrench3]

this may be a way to simplistic of an idea. but my first thought was, what about paper patching? the paper wrapping might keep the base from being gas cut. just a thought.

[Echo]

Correct, the powder detonated as it exited the muzzle. There was partial ignition that drove the remainder of powder out of the muzzle where it discontinued burning and detonated in the air. There is more than one kind of detonation. This was definitely a detonation and not merely a flash. The report was well beyond normal gunfire in loudness and the shock wave was profound to bystanders and the range-master that was knocked out of his chair from the blast. Not all muzzle flashes detonate, but some do. This is what happened to me. Certainly an in-chamber detonation would have been much more serious and destructive, this was an external detonation.

The term detonation refers to the high speed shock wave typical of high explosives, however, propellants can and do detonate under certain circumstances. The term detonation has no requirement that gun parts be involved at all. There have been wheat flour detonations at a mill in my area. No firearms were involved.

There was no damage to my rifle.

The round that squibbed on a different occasion was more of a problem. Upon shell extraction, the powder charge went into the receiver and trigger assembly requiring extensive cleaning and the lodged bullet had to be rammed out of the barrel.

My terminology is fine. I hope your understanding is expanded.

Gary

Well, that expanded MY understanding! Thanks, Gary.

[offshore44]

this may be a way to simplistic of an idea. but my first thought was, what about paper patching? the paper wrapping might keep the base from being gas cut. just a thought.

Yup, you are on to something there!

Toodle on down to the Smokeless Paper Patching area and do a search. LOTS of good info on the 458 Win Mag and putting cast down range wrapped in paper. There are several very knowledgeable shooters here with tons of experience in that area.

The 458 Win Mag has some guidelines for successful loading / shooting paper patched that violate the normal rules of paper patching though. I found success very easy to obtain by following those that came before me in this area. Right out of the gate I was getting 2 - 3" groups at 100 yards, no leading and no flyers. My groups are steadily shrinking as I discover the details of what my rifle likes and doesn't like.

I have also found that for normal shooting, the 458 Win Mag is not all that particular on what you feed it. I can get plinking / hunting accuracy out of it pretty much with any alloy, any lube, any usable powder and any paper that I have on hand. The loads come straight out of the reloading manuals for J-word bullets. Getting TARGET accuracy out of it is a different story though. That takes a little more time and effort. Still working on that.

The bottom line is: I got better accuracy shooting cast in various flavors than what the factory target showed right out of the gate. Shooting cast, in all its variations, is a lot cheaper than factory ammunition as well.

[offshore44]

I've only fired a few rounds of 458 cast from a friends No.1 & his M77. He used IMR 4895 if memory serves. If I had a 458 I would start with 5744 powder simply because it works great in the 45/70.

Send an e-mail off to Accurate with your bullet weights and they will be happy to provide load data for 5744. It took about three days to get a response from them in my case. The load data differed very little from what the books show for the 45-90 and 5744. Accuracy and recoil with the loads provided were acceptable with grease groove / gas checked cast or the GG plain base, but not as good as what the paper patched and j-word loads gave.

As an aside, the Trail Boss loads that I tried didn't generate enough pressure to consistently seal the case in the chamber. The lower end 5744 loads with the light (350 grn GCGG) bullets displayed the same issue but not to the extent of Trail Boss.

[shotstring]

In Ken Water's Pet Loads, they recommend IMR-4198 and IMR-3031 with cast for the 458 win mag.

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook likes a host of powders for the 458 including Unique, 2400, IMR-4227, IMR-4198, IMR-3031 and IMR-4064. Those were for bullets ranging from 385 gr all the way up to 552 gr using #2 alloy.

I haven't got around to playing with my Ruger #1 in 458 with cast, but its on my short list.