Trail Boss powder

[MikeS]

Hi All.

I'm kind of curious why it seems that most folks seem to relegate Trail Boss powder to plinking rounds only? I understand that you can't load a hot load using it, but does that mean that it's only good for plinking?

I've loaded some 30-30 with Lee C309-170-F boolits tumble lubed without GC's that weigh an average if 174gr as I've cast them with 10gr of Trail Boss. I haven't had a chance to get to the range and shoot these, but it's my understanding that this should be a nice shooting lighter load that should be under the speed that would require a gas check. Is there any problem with shooting a GC design without the GC?

Is there any way of attaching a GC without using a lube/sizer? Would a boolit sizing die for the Lyman 310 be able to crimp on a GC?

Wow, sorry for going off topic with all these questions! Back on topic, I kind of like the idea that Trail Boss is so light that it takes up a lot of space in the case without being a heavy load, I don't really like the idea of having a case 1/8th to 1/4 full, and either having the powder floating around loose, or requiring the use of a filler, and TB powder seems to solve that problem rather nicely. I've even seen loading data for the 45ACP using TB, something that surprised me. Am I correct that by using a powder that's as bulky as TB would make using a powder measure easier / more accurate than when using small sized loads (like the current 4.5gr load of 700X I'm loading in 45ACP now).

Once I shoot some 45's (I have no empty cases at the moment) I'm going to try loading some TB and see how it goes. I only load 45ACP & 30-30, and it would be nice if I could use the same powder in both (but I would only do that if the TB gives satisfactory loads in both).

[HARRYMPOPE]

GC bullet without GC is fine.i shoot 11g in 30-06 and it shoots great.


HMP

[onondaga]

A bullet with a bare shank for a gas check and no gas check is shootable but does set up some undesirable problems. The bare sharp base is less than bore diameter. Any tiny nick or imperfection can do several things including, being the path of least resistance for gas jetting to start or acting like a rudder when being hit with muzzle blast. Those problems can significantly effect accuracy and leading.

Many shooters claim no problems, but spectacular targets are pretty scarce from what I have seen.

Cutting the mold to give a regular plain base to the bullet is discussed frequently on this board as a solution to not using gas checks with low velocity/low pressure loads with a bullet like yours and I think this is a good idea because a full diameter bore riding plain base has a clear record of accuracy with light loads in many calibers and tradition.

Non gas check bullet molds in 30 caliber are pretty rare because of the low popularity and low demand for them. A reasonable solution is also to look at 32 cal. plain base pistol bullet molds. These make light weight bullets that can easily be sized down to a perfect fit for your bore for light recreational loads. The Lee 100 grain looks good to me:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=530255

I'd bet the as cast size, .311" of that bullet would be fine in your 30-30 or if not, could be easily sized with a Lee push through bullet sizing die as fast as you can pull the handle on your press.

Gary

[MikeS]

If I wanted to take my mould and make it into a plain base, can I just use a 5/16" reamer to slowly / carefully remove the GC? 5/16" translates to between .306 - .312 on my digital caliper (it has decimal, and fractional sizes on it). I figure that the Lee mould is cheap enough that I can experiment with it, and if I totally screw it up, I can always replace it fairly cheaply, same thing if I decide later on that I want to start using gas checks, this is a common mould, nothing rare about it (unless it's for sale on eBay, there everything is **RARE** [smilie=b: ) I don't think the amount of aluminium that would need to be removed is too much to just use a reamer on, and second worse case if I made the base too big, I would just have to size the boolits it drops, rather than using them as cast (worst case being totally destroying the mould, so I would have to replace it)

[math]

I have been using Trail boss in my ruger Bisley, 45 Colt with 255 grains lead bullets, and the combo of 4,5 grains TB and that bullet made a very easy shooting load, not one that i would recomend for use for serious bullseya shooting, for me that load groups 2.5" at 30meters offhand.

I use a Hornady powder measure and have found that i have a greater variation when using TB ( some where betveen 0-1 grain upp and down). just my two cents
Math

[Longwood]

I have been using Trail boss in my ruger Bisley, 45 Colt with 255 grains lead bullets, and the combo of 4,5 grains TB and that bullet made a very easy shooting load, not one that i would recomend for use for serious bullseya shooting, for me that load groups 2.5" at 30meters offhand.

I use a Hornady powder measure and have found that i have a greater variation when using TB ( some where betveen 0-1 grain upp and down). just my two cents
Math
I decided to give Trail Boss a try and find that it does not like to flow very well and I get lots of variation with the drops from measures. It would not even flow through my funnel without some taping on the funnel. I had to take the automatic measure off of my Lee Loadmaster and am now using my RCBS measure with a reamed out drop tube in it's place. I solved the funnel problem by machining a aluminum funnel with a huge throat.

[btroj]

Trailboss was designed largely for the cowboy action crowd. It was designed to allow low charges in big cases with a reduced chance of a double charge. The overall use of TB has exploded in the past year or two. New data has given us an ability to determine a safe charge in almost any case. Many like the bulk as it reduces, or eliminates, the chance of a double charge.
I use it for plinking but that is most of my shooting too. I would say that outside of low pressure handgun rounds it is not likely to see much action in competitive shooting. Most people interested in small groups are looking for velocity at times that TB will give.
I view TB as a niche powder. It has a place in shooting but it is a somewhat limited place. It does fill that niche better than anything else but it is limited in scope.

Brad

[3006guns]

I like Trail Boss and use it in my milsurp rifles (10-12 grs) for nice, easy on the shoulder loads...but to answer your questions..

The Lyman 310 plunger style sizer will install gas checks, but it's going to take a healthy squeeze. If you have the aluminum handles they may break if the alloy is really hard.

The only way to see if a boolit will shoot well without a GC is to shoot it. Most do o.k. but some simply won't perform, so it's kind of an open ended question.

If you can find someone with a lathe, plain basing a mold is easy...too easy if you're not careful! I've done an 8mm Lyman mold by centering it in a 4 jaw chuck and using a small boring bar to remove the material. Caution: it comes out a lot faster than you realize, so measure measure measure! I'm not sure if a reamer would work unless it was held absolutely rigid and in alignment. A drill press, rotated by hand, might work.

I've tried every powder measure I own and they all show the same problem. The charge drops normal, then light, then heavy.....and this is at random times. Not good. I think the problem is twofold in that T.B. is so light and fluffy it doesn't have enough weight to keep even pressure in the powder hopper. On top of that it seems to "bridge" in the measure's funnel, so I've stayed with dippers. Really not a big deal as my rifle ammo is loaded in batches of 100, so it's not very tiring. For a handgun it could get tedious though. I'd strongly advise a scale if you insist on using a measure, just to be safe.

[Calamity Jake]

If I wanted to take my mould and make it into a plain base, can I just use a 5/16" reamer to slowly / carefully remove the GC? 5/16" translates to between .306 - .312 on my digital caliper (it has decimal, and fractional sizes on it). I figure that the Lee mould is cheap enough that I can experiment with it, and if I totally screw it up, I can always replace it fairly cheaply, same thing if I decide later on that I want to start using gas checks, this is a common mould, nothing rare about it (unless it's for sale on eBay, there everything is **RARE** [smilie=b: ) I don't think the amount of aluminium that would need to be removed is too much to just use a reamer on, and second worse case if I made the base too big, I would just have to size the boolits it drops, rather than using them as cast (worst case being totally destroying the mould, so I would have to replace it)


5/16 in decimal form is .3125 nothing smaller using it in your mold may make it .314Ø depending in how much runout your drill press/reamer has.

Even at .314 the boolit can be sized down with no problems.

[Irascible]

I made my 311291 mould into a plain base by fly cutting .125" off the top and then using a .060" washer under the sprue plate pivot screw. It worked great.

[onondaga]

Drilling as you said and sizing if necessary is a good plan.

Gary

[NHlever]

Hi All.

I'm kind of curious why it seems that most folks seem to relegate Trail Boss powder to plinking rounds only? I understand that you can't load a hot load using it, but does that mean that it's only good for plinking?

I've loaded some 30-30 with Lee C309-170-F boolits tumble lubed without GC's that weigh an average if 174gr as I've cast them with 10gr of Trail Boss. I haven't had a chance to get to the range and shoot these, but it's my understanding that this should be a nice shooting lighter load that should be under the speed that would require a gas check. Is there any problem with shooting a GC design without the GC?

Is there any way of attaching a GC without using a lube/sizer? Would a boolit sizing die for the Lyman 310 be able to crimp on a GC?



Wow, sorry for going off topic with all these questions! Back on topic, I kind of like the idea that Trail Boss is so light that it takes up a lot of space in the case without being a heavy load, I don't really like the idea of having a case 1/8th to 1/4 full, and either having the powder floating around loose, or requiring the use of a filler, and TB powder seems to solve that problem rather nicely. I've even seen loading data for the 45ACP using TB, something that surprised me. Am I correct that by using a powder that's as bulky as TB would make using a powder measure easier / more accurate than when using small sized loads (like the current 4.5gr load of 700X I'm loading in 45ACP now).

Once I shoot some 45's (I have no empty cases at the moment) I'm going to try loading some TB and see how it goes. I only load 45ACP & 30-30, and it would be nice if I could use the same powder in both (but I would only do that if the TB gives satisfactory loads in both).

I have not used Trail Boss, and really see no reason to try it for the loads I use. I use small charges of pistol powder, and get more velocity, and less pressure with the same loads. I never owned a loading block, and have always seated a bullet on the case immediately after charging it so I have never had a double charge. The danger of double charging a case, and raising the pressures of squib loads the cowboy shooters use high enough to seal the case are the main reasons for it's existance. I might reconsider if I were using a really large case like the .458 Lott, or something. Unique, Red Dot, etc. will work just fine in both the .45 ACP, and the 30-30 for less money. I guess I agree with others that say it's a niche powder.
The other day I shot some Lee C-309-170-F over 7.5 grains of Unique. I had half loaded with gas checks, and half without, and there was no difference in grouping worth mention. If anything the ones without the checks shot a bit better. I was using Red Rooster lube, and left it intact on the gas check portion of the shank. I guess one either leaves it all on, or takes it all off, but accuracy suffers if you mix loads that have it with loads that don't. I was shooting them in a 30-30 which has a long neck to cover the shank too, and I'm sure that helps.

[Centaur 1]

10 grains of Trail Boss in a 30-30 is a full grain over the listed maximum with a 160 grain lead bullet. Even though this is a bulky powder, it's burn rate is faster than Unique. Here's the load data from the IMR website.

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

[quilbilly]

My experience with Trail Boss is that your maximum velocity with a full load is about 60% of the maximum velocity of a similar sized jacketed bullet with any powder. Recently I did a "wet phone book" terminal ballistics test on a 30/30 with a muzzle velocity of 1550 fps using a Lee 160 gr GC boolit. At 50 yards the boolit penetrated 17 inches of soaked phone books plus a sheet of 1/8 inch veneer which simulated clipping a rib. In my opinion that is adequate for hunting deer out to 100 yards.

[BCB]

10 grains of Trail Boss in a 30-30 is a full grain over the listed maximum with a 160 grain lead bullet. Even though this is a bulky powder, it's burn rate is faster than Unique. Here's the load data from the IMR website.

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php

I use the 70% formula exclusively and the 10.0 grains for the 170 grainer is maximum for the method of calculating charges using the 70% formula...

I shot 10 grains, but settled on 8 grains as it was the most accurate...

The 70% formula: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

There is controversy between IMR/Hodgdon data and the IMR 70% formula...

The reloader chooses! I only use the 70% formula...

Good-luck...BCB

[Centaur 1]

I use the 70% formula exclusively and the 10.0 grains for the 170 grainer is maximum for the method of calculating charges using the 70% formula...

I shot 10 grains, but settled on 8 grains as it was the most accurate...

The 70% formula: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

There is controversy between IMR/Hodgdon data and the IMR 70% formula...

The reloader chooses! I only use the 70% formula...

Good-luck...BCB

I understand the 70% formula, but it's only a guideline. I like to err on the side of caution so I just checked my Lyman cast bullet handbook. They don't show that exact bullet, but they have data using the Lyman #311041 bullet. It weighs 173grains. They show a starting load of 8.0 grains Trail Boss, giving 1054 fps and 31,300 C.U.P., and a max load of 8.5 grains TB, which gives 1102 fps and 37,400 C.U.P. That 1/2 grain of powder only gives an additional 48 fps, but chamber pressure rises 6,100 c.u.p.. Cartridge specifications for the 30-30 is a maximum chamber pressure of 38,000 c.u.p., so that 8.5 grain load is very close to maximum. I think that sometimes we forget that Trail Boss has a burning rate that falls between Bullseye and Unique. With a powder this fast there's a point where things can go bad real quick. I worry that we get complacent because of Trail Boss's reputation as a light load powder and the 70% guideline. I'd like to think that if I mistakenly loaded my first rounds 1 1/2 grains over listed max with a fast powder, that someone here would catch the mistake before I pulled the trigger.

MikeS, I think that you should reconsider your loads before you go to the range. If I were you, I'd pull those bullets and reload with only 8 grains of Trail Boss. If you want more speed than this load gives it would be wise to change powder to something slower.

[405]

First, I use Trailboss a lot for light loads in high expansion ratio applications. Make no mistake- it is a fast burning powder. I think a bunch of folks don't fully understand the difference between the bulky, low density physical characteristics of some powders and the burn rate or progressive nature of those powders. Forget the notion that because it is bulky that it is somehow a slow powder suited for high velocity applications in bottleneck, overbore, low expansion ratio applications. It is a fast powder. I treat it like a bulky Bullseye or 700X type powder...... not a Unique or 2400 type powder. To answer the question (in the OP) of why it shouldn't be used for higher velocity loadings for most cartridges... the same reason something like Bullseye shouldn't be used for that purpose.

Second, I've found that it measures extremely accurately out of my measure... probably simply because it is so bulky. Additonally, when the drum rotates... it easily cuts the few granules that are on the edge.... so there is no herky jerky cutting or the snapping forward of the drum as it cuts. Some coarse extruded powders don't measure accurately through my measure probably because of the herky jerky grinding and snapping forward as individual granules are cut. Unlike most cast bullet groupies, I don't like Unique.... if for no other reason than my measure will not throw accurate charges of Unique and the extremely thin flakes jam up the works. The thicker flakes of Trailboss don't jam up the works in my measure. There are other powders that do what I need done in the burn rate range of Unique. So, I relegate it to fire forming cases in those rare instances that I fireform anything.

The only thing I can think of that may cause problems with certain measures not throwing accurate charges of Traiboss is that those measures are likely better suited for fine textured powders... like some of the ball pistol powders.

[BCB]

I understand the 70% formula, but it's only a guideline. I like to err on the side of caution so I just checked my Lyman cast bullet handbook. They don't show that exact bullet, but they have data using the Lyman #311041 bullet. It weighs 173grains. They show a starting load of 8.0 grains Trail Boss, giving 1054 fps and 31,300 C.U.P., and a max load of 8.5 grains TB, which gives 1102 fps and 37,400 C.U.P. That 1/2 grain of powder only gives an additional 48 fps, but chamber pressure rises 6,100 c.u.p.. Cartridge specifications for the 30-30 is a maximum chamber pressure of 38,000 c.u.p., so that 8.5 grain load is very close to maximum. I think that sometimes we forget that Trail Boss has a burning rate that falls between Bullseye and Unique. With a powder this fast there's a point where things can go bad real quick. I worry that we get complacent because of Trail Boss's reputation as a light load powder and the 70% guideline. I'd like to think that if I mistakenly loaded my first rounds 1 1/2 grains over listed max with a fast powder, that someone here would catch the mistake before I pulled the trigger.

I'm just curious as to how many of the 311041's you have fired using Trail Boss in the 30-30 Wichester cartridge?...

We can all quote numbers from some book. SAAMI specs for the 30-30 are 42000 psi. Maybe 38000 c.u.p. is equivent to the psi number, I don't know...

I have shot probably no less than 500 of the 311041's from my Contender and my Model 94's. Not one problem what so ever. I have fired the 10-grain maximum charge as calculated using the 70% formula with NO problems at all. The cases literally "fell" from the chambers, or at least with no more effort than a dyed-in-the-wool starting load of any powder from a published manual. I settled on the 8 grain charge because it was the most accurate in my Contender, not for any signs of pressure. And, the 311041 weighs in at 181 grains, not the 173, as indicated. This is even more weight and still no sign of pressure...

So from most of the posts against the 70% formula, they are quoted data, not proven by the shooter or any of his/her handguns/rifles...

These types of warnings, although in good notions and intentions, they may be giving false information to a reloading who wishes to take the most advantage from Trail Boss powder...

I have read and reread the IMR 70% sheet as posted and there is no where I see it listed as a "guideline".

I don't know why the published data/70% formula don't compare, especially for the maximum charge...

I have presently used Trail Boss in 9 cartridges, handgun and rifle cases and I have never looked at one piece of published data as a reloading reference. I used the 70% formula exclusively and here I am typing this with all my fingers and both thumbs...

And so it goes...

Good-luck...BCB

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=MikeS;1198193]Hi All.

I'm kind of curious why it seems that most folks seem to relegate Trail Boss powder to plinking rounds only? I understand that you can't load a hot load using it, but does that mean that it's only good for plinking?

Is there any way of attaching a GC without using a lube/sizer? Would a boolit sizing die for the Lyman 310 be able to crimp on a GC?

First I'd say that for 'plinking', it's usually, (in my case anyway) done in rifles using the IMR reduced load formula. I do it in my milsurps as I don't use them to hunt, just for fun. It was developed I believe for the Cowboy Action Shooting crowd and S.A.S.S. . They shoot soft lead only in period style firearms. Because those are spectator type events, it adds a margin of safety.
If I want to seat a check without lubing, I use a Lee die and just put some vaseline on it to push it through. And yes, up to a point, obviously, you can get away without a G/C. Pressure being the variable. A collet type bullet puller like the Hornady cam-loc has been used to put on checks but getting it sized right would be a c#@p shoot. They have been used to swage G/C shanks to boolits too.
On an added note, SR-4759 is a low density powder too, that gives moderate recoil (a little more than TB will) and good case fill, CCI 200 primers are recommended by the Lyman manual. SR-4759 is a little 'chunky' and may not meter well with all dispensers.

[1Shirt]

For whatever it is worth, I have tried Trial boss in all of the rifle ctgs that I shoot. Have not had bad results with any of them. As to plain base or non checked with TB, try it, you might like it, and if it doesn't work, you will at least learned something. I shot 20 rds of 375H&H with 250 Lee Plain base (bev base by the way)over I think 20 gr. of TB. It chronoed on average 1500 fps. Recoil very mild, good accuracy to 50 yds. You could call it a plinker for the cal, however, think it would make a decent deer load to 100yds. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[lyktohunt]

I will comment on your question regarding gas checks. I have hand pressed gas checks on that very same bullet as i do not have a sizer for it.They are old Lyman checks, they shot very well with 14.5 gr IMR4227.