Buffalo Hunters casting bullets? Fact or fiction.

[Harry Eales]

Every now and then I come across an article in a book or magazine which states that the Buffalo (Bison) hunters of the 1880's used to sit around their campfire at night reloading their ammunition. Now that I can believe. BUT, when the article says they melted their lead in ladles in the campfire, I start to have my doubts.

Lead, as all who have cast their own bullets knows all to well, takes quite a bit of heat to melt it. So today we use gas burners or electric melting pots which we feed with small ingots, sprue's or various bits of lead we have lying around. Fine, no problem there.

However, I have to ask, how did the Buffalo Hunter do it? Well, not through using buffalo chips which I understand was just about the only fuel available on the open plains. Why? because I don't believe it could generate the necessary heat to melt the lead in sufficient volume to make casting a viable proposition..

Using a small ladle which might hold enough lead to cast two or three bullets of 350 - 500 grains, it may just be possible to melt that amount of lead after some considerable time. However, even pre-heated moulds need a number of bullets cast in them before coming up to operating temperature. So even with several ladels in the fire they would soon run out of molten lead. By the time more had been melted, the chances are the mould had cooled down again. To be frank, I don't think that producing bullets in this way can be done.

It is known that some hunters carried lead ingots with them. But I believe that these men would have gone into the nearest town, and had the lead melted and the bullets cast by using the local Blacksmiths forge. In a forge it would have been a simple process, as high temperatures could be obtained, and enough bullets could have been cast in a day to last them a month or more out on the plains.

Now I would like to experiment with Buffalo chips, but there haven't been any around my neck of the English Woods for some 10,000 years. It would be a very interesting experiment to have someone in say Montana, where these animals still exist, to collect a pile of chips and experiment with them. I don't think they'll have much success.

It is known that the Sharps Factory swaged such bullets by the thousand and they employed young women to paper patch them. So adept were these girls at their job, that some could patch upto 10,000 bullets a day.

Making that number wasn't done for fun, there must have been a large and constant demand for them. This couldn't simply have come from target shooters and I believe that a considerable part of the production would have gone to the professional Buffalo Hunter.

Sharps sold swaged and patched lead bullets for between $8.75 to $12.75 per thousand according to their 1874 catalogue, the price depending on calibre.

If a man had to reload say 100 cartridges in an evening using the relatively poor reloading equipment available in those years, he would have had little time for casting as well. Remember there were other duties, fleshing and staking out the skins, cooking ,guard duty in case of indians, etc.

In short, I genuinely believe that the casting of bullets around the campfire, using buffalo chips for fuel, is just another myth of the Old West.

The number of Sharps bullet moulds that survive is very small in comparison with the survival rate of the Sharps rifles. Admittedly, some will have been lost or separated from the weapon over time. But the very low survival rate does also tend to indicate, that not a great number of moulds were produced.

If someone can prove me wrong, by practical experiment using genuine Buffalo chips, I'll offer a full apology and I'll take my hat off to them.

Harry.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Harry, I accept your buffalo chip challenge, but it will take a few months to find some well-dried chips. No, not genuine buffalo, but there are plenty of Hereford and Aberdeen Angus chip producers in the neighborhood. Trouble is, it's the wrong time of the year to find good sun dried chips. Meanwhile, I'll start off with a campfire of wood in the unimproved area of my back yard. I remember the movie "The Patriot." Mel Gibson, as Francis Marion, "The Swamp Fox," was shown casting bullets over a campfire while plotting the demise of a thinly disguised Banastre Tarleton. Looks like a fun project, but if my wife sees what I'm doing, she'll say, "Oh, you're such a BOY."

[Leftoverdj]

Cow pies are close enough to buffalo chips to be a reasonable substitute if you feel minded to try the experiment. The needed temperature is less than 800 degrees F, and it should be no problem to reach that, especially with the use of a bellows. I'm quite certain that they did not just go into town since the nearest hamlet was likely to be two weeks travel.

It is my understanding that the shooter was the star of the crew, and that unless he was also the boss of the crew, his sole duty was was the care and feeding of his rifle.

[45nut]

I have a small lead pot that I have set ww's in and set on my woodstove,the ww's melted completely without even being in the bed of coals. There is no doubt in my mind it's a plausible endeavor.
NV,,,thats my favorite part of that movie............ :castmine:

[wills]

This does not answer the question but is interesting.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

[Junior1942]

>In short, I genuinely believe that the casting of bullets around the campfire, using buffalo chips for fuel, is just another myth of the Old West.

Wrong. See http://www.castbullet.com/hunting/bhunt.htm

I used mostly pine cones, but buffalo chips would probably give more heat. It was actually easy to do on a small fire.

[MT Gianni]

I was at a rondevoux where it was done in a small 4" cast iron pot. Ladle casting of round balls but it could just as easy of been conicals. There is also much more fuel on the prarie than chips. Gianni.

[KCSO]

Wrong, no myth.
I have cast a literal ton of bullets around the camp fire, both in hunting camp and in demonstrations. I have a casting pot and lead ladle from the 1880's and have used both. Chips will get the job done, but are not prefered. A wood fire works nicely. Set your lead pot on a spider and rake the hottest coals around the pot. For this work you will use a ladle or dipper with a long handle and will be holding your mould over a folded wool blanket. The blanket catches the bullets and the sprues and you reuse any that are not up to your specs. When I first started casting for civil war muskets my Grandfather showed me how to cast on a wood stove with a pot ring and the same Ideal pot I use today. The ring and pot belonged to his father and Grampa said that they had to cast outside sometimes because his mother didn't like the smell of the burnt wax they cleaned the lead with. This is also where I got the spider and dipper. If yo read the lod books carefully you wil see that several of the guys who were there mentioned casting bullets. The bullets were mostly paper patch so lubing was not a problem, although pan lube was used on occasion.

[kywoodwrkr]

Lead bullets are and can be moulded over a very small campfire.
Every year there is a histrical presentation/program at Cumberland Gap in Southeastern Ky. One of the sites in the historical arena involves some buckskin clad hunters melting lead in a laddle and moulding lead balls for their rifles. Can assure you they have some interested observers, of all ages. Everything is primitive and loyal to the time period.
FWIW
DaveP kywoodwrkr

[TCLouis]

All this time I have been smelting batches of lead, WWs or lino for ingots with limbs and scrap wood and now I find it won't get hot enough to melt lead and alloys.

I usually smelt in 200-400 pound batches and wood fire works fine. My melter is not pretty but for the price of FREE, meets my cheap quotient just fine. I do cover the melt with 2-3 inch blanket of sawdust to protect the tin. Batches this big are NOT for the faint of heart and one has to plan it as an all day project, preferably in the dead of winter and NO hint of rain in the forecast. FULL face shield and lots of clothes are my minimum safety consideration when dealing with batches of molten metal this big.
This also gives me a LOT of alloy of one type when I do cast ingots.

Made the mistake of putting an aluminium pan in the coals once and when I came back to cast the lead I had in it, I found most of the pan melted. This is a heavy quality pan too, not some flimsy wear.

If in doubt, plasce a piece of steel in coals and supply a bit of air flow (not a lot needed).

[waksupi]

Been there, done that. Not a problem to do the job. One of our club contests was to shoot into a block of wood, split the wood open, recover the bullet, start a fire with flint and steel, and when the bullet was remolded, fire at another chunk of wood. First one done, wins. I believe the winning time was around 23-25 minutes. And, it is hilarious watching someone trying to pick up and load a hot ball!

[Edward429451]

I have a "Modern Gunsmithing" book (circa 1900) that I was reading just the other night that was talking about if you're going to be hunting for a month or more and have no extra rifle, that you should put together a field kit for fixing rifles in the field. Including making new firearms parts from scrap iron found in the field. Heat treating and soldering were helped along by a 'field bellows' which was nothing more than a long brass tube with a length of rubber hose slipped over the end so you could blow the coals hot and such. Raised my eyebrows.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've never cast bullets on a campfire, but have melted lead down for ingots on a small brazier with charcoal briquettes. Took a while for the first lead to liquefy, but after that the little puddle ate into the solid pretty quickly.

Sharps molds may have not been as common as the rifles or some later bullet molds, but they are not really all that rare. They're quite pricey, for sure, but I've seen 20 for every Perfection or Maynard mold I've seen.

[floodgate]

Harry:

Back in the '50's, when I first got into this racket, I cast hundreds of round balls and bullets in a regular fireplace, over ordinary wood (oak), using a tuna can with a spout bent in it and held with a pair of water pump pliers. I used a couple of the original all-metal two-cavity (round ball and stubby pointed bullet) moulds that came with the old Colt and Remington cap-and-ball revolavers (I had, and shot, both models - at that time you could get a really serviceable original for less than an "el cheapo" replica today). The plumber's pig lead chunks chopped off with an axe melted quite rapidly and cast just fine; the main problem was that those stubby little moulds got HOT, even with heavy gloves which I had to keep wet and swap out every ten or so casts. I am sure the old boys could - and did - cast lots of them over an open campfire. In fact, it was common in the fur trade era to sell Black Powder in sealed, waterproof lead casks that - when empty! - could then be melted down to make bullets or balls. (I would prefer, though, not to have had the job of soldering them shut!)

floodgate

[Bullshop]

Pull up a chair and set a spell and I'll tell ya a story. Way back in my timber beast days early each spring, bout march I used ta leave my lovely home in the Bitterroots and head for the big timber and money in the Tongas. North via the scenic rout through Banf and up to Prince George then over to the coast and Prince Rupert.
From there a short ferry ride to Ketchikan, then one more hop to Prince of Whales Isl.
Once there I would just camp till the woods opend up and there was always more work than hands for it.
This one year there was a fella that wanted to go with and try his hand at cutting timber. He had some tools but no travel cash so I bankrolled him and held his Ron Paul built 69 cal ball gun. I didnt get it till we were headed out so the gun, ball mold, caps, and powder went with us.
When we finaly got to POW isl. the snow was still way too deep so we had to camp for nearly a month. We found a spot on the edg of an old clear cut and set up a nice camp. There was a big blow down spruce that fell across a stump and broke but pulled grain so that each growth ring was a huge slab kinda like plywood. We framed a little cabin with poles and coverd it with slab. Built up a stone firplace at one end and we was stinkin in tall cotton.
Then all we had to do was keep fed til work came. We ate a steady diet of fish and clams for about two weeks and I told Eric I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS, I GOTTA HAVE MEAT!!! There was plenty of black tails hangin arround the edges of the clear cut but we had no balls made up for the ball gun. We scouted a bit and foung some of them way big eqipment batteries in the brush so knocked the terminals off them. Then we found a rusty coffie can and that became our pot. I pinched one side of the can to a spout to pour from and we kindled up a little spruce fire. In just a short time the lead was ready to pour. Fished a pair if vice grips from my PU tool box and poured a double hand full of right perty 12 gauge round balls.
I says to Eric tonight we eat meat and headed out. Popped a cap or two through the nipple and dumped in 200gn Goex FG, I was serious! Got it all ready and not more than 150 yards from camp I spot a deer. I got close as I could maybe 50 60 yards and it starts to get fidgity and try's to sneak of without lookin at me like if it dont see me I wont see it. Well it started slippin through the old stumps and pikin up the pace so I leveled on it and swung just to the fron edg and touched off. After the shot I thought I prolly didnt need 200gn powder, OUCH! That lil deer was slapped down like he was struck by lightnin. I went back to camp to stash the gun and told Eric to light a fire cuz we was gona have some heart shortly.
Went back to the deer and found it was a buck so that was good. Gutted him out and all I found of the heart was about a double mouth full of just the bottom tip. That big ol round ball hit the heart dead center just when it musta been full with blood and just exploded it to nothingness.
So anyway we at liver just shortly after. Hung the rest on a pole and lasted till we went to work. Did loose a little to some dang fish hawks (eagles) till we coverd it with some spruce limbs.
So there ya go proof a couple dumd dumbs in the field with not too much for recources can dang sure get the job done if they is hungry enough.
BIC/BS

[nelsonted1]

I smelt WW in a cut off propane tank fired with wood. Works well. I do it visiting my brother in MN.

A customer drove in looking for an auto body estimate and saw me behind a cut off propane tank cooking and smoking up a storm. He was extremely nervous hiding behind the door of his car. He later told me: "Fire and smoke under a cutoff propane tank in the middle of the driveway equals METHLAB." I sure had a laugh at that one!

[Harry Eales]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for your various replies and the URL's, many of which made very interesting reading.

But if I discard those which mentioned the use of wood, stoves, pine cones, charcoal, there is little evidence of the succesfull of using Buffalo chips.

I would grant, that in an emergency, it may be possible to make the odd bullet in this way, but these Buffalo hunters needed an accurate bullet for long range shooting and that means consistancy in casting. It doesn't matter how good your rifle is, if your ammo is poor.

As to ammo costs being as expensive as the old Buffalo Hunter said, well, the Sharps Factory sold loaded ammo with bullets either patched or plain for between $35.00 and £50.00 a thousand. Thats 3.5 to 5 cents per round, shipping must have been awfully expensive.

Ref, The Patriot and Quigley, come on folks. That's Hollywood Hokum, it looks good on the silver screen or boob tube, but its far fetched. Tom Sellick for instance had to be shown how to use his Sharps rifle by Mike Venturino, as for the three consecutive shots taken offhand and hitting a bucket at several hundred yards, without sighting shots or consulting sight setting records and with a .45/120/550 cartridge, words fail me. That's Hollywood Hokum at its best. Even from crossed sticks or shooting from the prone position it's nigh on impossible.

It would be fantastic if a single painted lead soldier could be melted down and cast into a cold mould to produce a perfect unwrinkled bullet, did you notice Mel Gibson wasn't wearing gloves either when he used an iron mould with no wooden handles? Entertainment? Yes, factual? No.

To the gentleman who offered to actually try and melt lead on a Buffalo Chip fire. I wish you the very best of luck. I will be the first to applaud, if you can just make half a dozen 400-500 grain lead bullets by this method. It would also be interesting if you noted just how long it took you. I've never heard of bellows being carried by Buffalo hunters to blow air into their fires, but by all means try using them.

If nothing else this thread got a fair few replies. lol. I'm not yet convinced that bullets could be made this way. Surely it would have been much easier and convenient, to cast them in town before setting out to hunt?

My regards to you all.

Harry

[Larry Gibson]

Harry

As others have pointed out, bullets can and are still being moulded using a campfire. For historical reference read the journals of Lewis and Clark (copies of the real journal, not Ambrose's story). There you will find they took extra powder in sheet lead containers to mould for bullets. There is also a couple references to actually doing it. No mention at all of taking the Lyman or RCBS furnace and plugging into a current bush though. Just kidding on the current bush but buffalo hunters did in fact mould bullets over campfires, there's a few references to it in their writings also.

Larry Gibson

[KCSO]

All right I will dig out my photo's of campfire casting. I have cast and written an article for the Shootist about casting 45-110 Sharps loads over a campfire. The bullets so cast and loaded with original style tools shot groups just 1/2" larger than the best loads made on a modern press. It just takes more time and different techniques. As to using buffalo chips, there really would be no need as even in the most desolate prarie you can come up with enough wood to melt a pot of lead. I am sure if they could get them pre cast bullets were prefered, but some prefered to or had to cast their own, and did it quite nicely.

[Harry O]

There is a Museum everyone here should stop and look at if you get anywhere near it. It is in Chadron, Nebraska (the northwestern part of the state). It is called the Museum of the Fur Trade This is not a little roadside tourist trap. It was put together by a former State of Nebraska Museum curator.

I know that the fur traders were a little bit before the buffalo hunters, but the time period between them was so small, I would doubt there would be that much change in procedures. There is plenty of original BP cans, flints, caps, repair tools, moulds, melting pans, and LEAD BARS displayed there. There was some cartridge rifles and equipment towards the end of the fur period, but most was muzzleloading. It is pretty obvious that the fur traders were making their own. With the soft lead they used (both ball and slug), I doubt that they would have retained their shape if purchased in advance and lugged around for months.

Anyway, in addition to what I mentioned above they also have a couple of hundred fur trader and trade rifles -- all of them very well documented. It is quite a learning experience. My guess is that the buffalo hunters started out loading their own, but probably eventually started using more and more "store bought" ammo (at least until the price of buffalo robes dropped towards the end). Entirely a guess, though.

[Doughty]

However, I have to ask, how did the Buffalo Hunter do it? Well, not through using buffalo chips which I understand was just about the only fuel available on the open plains.

Harry,

I believe that the problem may, in part, be with your "understanding" of the "open plains" and perhaps in the distinction between "just about the only fuel" and "the only fuel" available.

I would also refer you to the "Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters and Skinners" by Gilbert, Remiger, and Cunningham. There are numerous references to reloading of ammunition, reloading "outfits," and molds. Also numerous lists of provisions procurred by the hunters, most of which included "lead" usually in 100 pound weights.

Also, just for fun, I would refer you to "The Champion Buffalo Hunter" by Victor (Old Vic) Grant Smith.

There are others, but if you are interested, these will get you started.

[JDL]

Harry, The buff hunters also used swages to perfect their cast boolits. Read the book, "Getting a Stand" for insights on the buff runners. -JDL

[Harry Eales]

Harry,

I believe that the problem may, in part, be with your "understanding" of the "open plains" and perhaps in the distinction between "just about the only fuel" and "the only fuel" available.

I would also refer you to the "Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters and Skinners" by Gilbert, Remiger, and Cunningham. There are numerous references to reloading of ammunition, reloading "outfits," and molds. Also numerous lists of provisions procurred by the hunters, most of which included "lead" usually in 100 pound weights.

Also, just for fun, I would refer you to "The Champion Buffalo Hunter" by Victor (Old Vic) Grant Smith.

There are others, but if you are interested, these will get you started.

Hello Vic,
All I have in my library in relation to this subject is The North American Buffalo by Roe. I'll try and get my local library to get those you suggested. For the next few months I'm saving to buying a mill and tooling to help me build my Borchardt Rifle. I have it part made, but cannot finish it without more tools.

Harry

[Harry Eales]

Harry, The buff hunters also used swages to perfect their cast boolits. Read the book, "Getting a Stand" for insights on the buff runners. -JDL

Hello JDL,

It depends on what they meant by 'swage'. It could also mean 'sizing'.

Whilst Sharps may have swaged bullets to shape from lead, at their factory it does take a lot of pressure. I can remember the first bullet swaging machines coming onto the reloading market back in the 1960's. I don't think they had portable bullet swages back in the 1880's.

I'll read the book if I get half a chance.

Harry

[JDL]

Harry, It wasn't a machine but, a hand held swage die with punch that was hit with a mallet . This produced the proper size and eliminated any voids in the poured slug. -JDL

[Doughty]

Harry,

Tools are like money and bullets; you can never have too many.

If you like making Borchardts, you might want to get in touch with Argus Barker of Monarch Tool Co. in Stevensville, Montana. I don't have his contact info, but I think you could find it if you google him.

[Bullshop Junior]

My bud Leo Remiger sent me a couple extra coppies of the encyclopedia. If anyone is interested let me know.
BIC/BS

[Harry Eales]

Harry, It wasn't a machine but, a hand held swage die with punch that was hit with a mallet . This produced the proper size and eliminated any voids in the poured slug. -JDL

Hello JDL,

If there's an air bubble inside a bullet, there's no way your going to eliminate it. you may compress it down by using such a swage, but it will still be there, and it won't shoot well.

Harry

[Harry Eales]

Harry,

Tools are like money and bullets; you can never have too many.

If you like making Borchardts, you might want to get in touch with Argus Barker of Monarch Tool Co. in Stevensville, Montana. I don't have his contact info, but I think you could find it if you google him.

Hello Vic,
Thanks, I already have Argus Barker's contact address. He teaches gunsmithing these days. I'm attaching a picture to show how far I've got on. I'll be starting on the breech block and the tang vernier sight as soon as it warms up. There's no heat in the workshop I'm using. I've got more done than the picture actually shows, including a few parts of the rear vernier sight. I've made at least two of everything except the receiver, so if I make a machining error I have something to fall back on, without making it from scratch.

Harry

[Bigjohn]

Harry; Welcome and good work on your rifle project.

The book; 'Getting a Stand' by Miles Gilbert; published by Pioneer Press, P. O. Box 684, UNION CITY, Tn 38261. ISBN 1-877704-14-8. This book is an anthology of the writtings of the Buffalo Hunters.

Harry, I think in this situation you must take into consideration that the people we are talking about came from a different time period. In the era we are discussing; People knew how to solve a problem. The store accounts of the hunters show what they purchased in some detail and in most cases you would see lead listed as opposed to Bullets/projectiles.

In that era, the logistics involved in getting a product from and eastern factory to the west were horrendus. Hence the 'shooter' or team captain could not rely on the store for commercially produced projectiles. Bulk powders, metal (lead) and primers were available and each rifle had it's own kit for casting and reloading.

In the terms of the team; if the shooter was not able to down the buffalo then the skinners had no work and no pay at the end of the season.

As I stated at the start of this posting, people from this era were self-reliant; if they had a problem they fixed it as best they could with what they had. IF you check in with Ray Mears or Ron Woods; they can show you how to construct a simple bellows from what is available. Buffalo chips were not the ONLY firemaking material available on the plains; wood was available but you may have to travel around to collect enough; a dangerous task in those days; a small group, wagon and horses, with little protection, a opportunity for the local native Americans.

Basically, what I am saying is; these people had the skills to be self-sufficient, make what they needed and endure the hardships placed before them, so casting a lead boolit over a fire, that was capable of bring down a buffalo from three to four hundred yards or more; very possible.

:coffee:

John.

[TCLouis]

I was talking to and older farmer (in his 60s-70s) near Spring Hill TN and he told of finding a pile of boolits and a big piece of solidified lead on the family farm when he was a kid. They were Minie balls so he figured they had been cast somewhere around the time of the Battle of Franklin. He also guessed that they were told to saddle up/ get ready and had just dumped what lead the RCBS pot still had in it and were too busy to cart off the Minies and lead when they left.

I use 1/2 of a 10 gallon water heater tank and engulf the entire thing in a small bonfire. Come back in 1/2-1 hour and a bunch of molten lead under the sawdust/carbon bed and a bed of coals to keep it molten even though that much mass keeps its heat for a while. It is a cold weather project.

I was gonna use a propane tank but all the "Meth Labs" in the area had them in use!!

[Bullshop]

Bigjohn
There are also a couple referances in that book about using the softest lead they could find so as not to shoot through. Said they would find the expanded ball on the off side just under the hide and reuse it.
I like the part of the jernals that records #of shots fired to animals killed. Nothing came close to the 50/90. And Jim White with his 50/90 had a couple stands that were nearly 1 for 1.
BIC/BS

[hydraulic]

When Columbus arrived there were about 60 million buffalo in what would become the United States. By the end of the Civil War, the only place left on the continent where there were buffalo was on the great plains. They were extinct west of the Rockies and east of the Missouri. There were about 5 million left in the country when the Sharps shooters started hide hunting in the l870's. What happened to the buffalo? The Indians killed the cows for food and hides for the fur trade. Francis Parkman, (The Oregon Trail) l846, says that bulls greatly outnumberd cows. Try putting several herford bulls in with a like number of cows. No cows will get bred. The bulls spend all their time fighting. The last large herd of buffalo were killed north of Dakota's Black Hills in 1888. Spotted Tail of the Brules got a pass from his agent to take his tribe hunting (government ammunition) and they killed every last one of them, something over a thousand.

[MT Chambers]

I have read numerous accounts of the days of the Buffalo and in most accounts they make mention of the provisions that they needed to take on before leaving town for the hunt. Powder, primers, lead bars, etc were all part of the gear. One also reads of how they worked hard to recover the bullet from downed Buffalo, so it could be reused, as lead was hard to come by. Don't know what they used for fuel but it worked for them judging by the toll on Buffalos.

[Bigjohn]

Bullshop; Yes it's a couple of years since I last read the book but it is here in my library still. There is some interesting information in the book for sure. Must read it again.

I believe that all the hunters of that period or earlier tried to recover the spent boolit for just that purpose; re-casting. Why waste a resource that is hard to come by?

John.

[Harry Eales]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for all your input, comments, suggestions on which books to read, the ingenuity of the 'Old Timers', and your own methodology in doing things. It's been very interesting and in part a fairly steep learning curve, on how things were done in the old days.

I'm no stranger to reloading and casting lead myself and in the 45 years I've been shooting, I've seldom bought factory made ammunition, reloading has been the only way I could have afforded to shoot the volume of ammunition I've used in handguns and rifles. I've reloaded using everything from a Lyman 'Tong Tool' to an automatic Camdex reloading machine which kicked out over 2000 rounds per hour.

I've never had a problem melting lead, using gas or electricity, but it intrigued me reading about 'Buffalo Chips' being used to melt lead, hence my original 'Post'.

Having cut up many 200 pound lead ingots by hand, over the years, I know just how tough that alone can be, using nothing but simple hand tools i.e. Axe, hammer and chisel or saws.

Now I'm well along the descent side of the hill of life, I'm having to slow down a little. In my remaining years I want to compete in Long Range BPCR competition and intend to do so, as soon as I've built my rifle. It will be chambered for one of the Old Buffalo Rifle cartridges.

The professional Buffalo Hunter may be a thing of the past, but their rifles and ammunition remain, and long may they do so.

Harry

[andrew375]

I remember the movie "The Patriot." Mel Gibson, as Francis Marion, "The Swamp Fox," was shown casting bullets over a campfire while plotting the demise of a thinly disguised Banastre Tarleton. "

Also demonstrated by James Stewart in The Last Buffalo.

:castmine:

[chunkum]

If only the old tools could somehow tell their stories. Not sure of the history on this one but it's got to be old. Maybe it experienced the campfire ritual, somewhere, sometime?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/45-70IdealToolnDie2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/45-70IdealToolnDie.jpg

It can still mould a pretty good bullet but has been retired our of respect for its service and age.

Best Regards,
Chunkum

[7br]

>In short, I genuinely believe that the casting of bullets around the campfire, using buffalo chips for fuel, is just another myth of the Old West.

Wrong. See http://www.castbullet.com/hunting/bhunt.htm

I used mostly pine cones, but buffalo chips would probably give more heat. It was actually easy to do on a small fire.

Great article. Too often, I think of the past as black and white photographs. I need to remember that a thousand years ago, a venison backstrap cooked over coals tasted as good as it does now.

One of the great things about having kids is the opportunity to do cool things with them that you didn't get to do as a kid. I have done a lot more in Boy Scouts with my son than I ever did as a kid.

[ron brooks]

Two things to remember in this discussion.

(1) Remember that one of the things that made it finically<sp?> feasible for the The hunting of the buffalo was that the railroad could transport the hides back East. Goods were going both ways.

(2) The hunters would have wanted to set up their camp by a soucrce of water, at least close to one. Both they and their stock would require water, and a horse or mule goes through a LOT in a day. On the Plains wherre their is water there is trees, and that means wood.

Ron

[Dale53]

I can add little to what has been said. However, to re-enforce some of the other comments: it is no great trick to cast bullets using a wood fire. As many here have said, wood fired heat (I haven't used "buffalo chips") is more than adequate. My local club has an indoor range. I have often helped clean the range of lead. We smelted it in a very large iron pot suspended over a fifty gallon barrel full of burning wood. This worked as well as my modern propane fired turkey cooker (it was larger, tho' by far). We only clean the range when is about to collapse the floor and we are talking hundreds of pounds of lead.

I grew up on a farm where a wood fired range was still in use in the kitchen. I have cast bullets on the range using a Lyman iron pot and fire ring to suspend the pot over the fire. It is pretty easy to regulate the fire in an old range - we often used corn cobs for fuel and the number of cobs were easily translated to the numbers on your modern range heat control knob...

Probably the most "businesslike" individual on the original Buffalo range was Frank Mayer. Here is an excerpt from his book, Buffalo Harvest...

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

Frank kept meticulous records, records that the yet to be invented IRS would have been proud of. I don't know if he mentions it in this account, but I have his book and he ordered bullets, swaged and paper patched, from Sharps. As I remember, he used 16-1 lead-tin for his bullets (he left a very detailed account of all things involved in his ten years chasing Buffalo). What is more, he was a real "rifle crank" and continued to be interested in serious rifles until old age. He lived until the 1950's, I believe. I would have liked to have known him.

Dale53

[Doughty]

Harry,

Looks like your well on the way to getting your rifle built. I'm envious. Is this the rifle you are planning on shooting in BPCR?

[Harry Eales]

Harry,

Looks like your well on the way to getting your rifle built. I'm envious. Is this the rifle you are planning on shooting in BPCR?

Hello Vic,

Yes it is, I dreamt about owning a Borchardt for at least forty years, but they're very rare in Europe, and I've never seen one single specimen. So the only way to get one, or a replica, was to build it myself. I am aware they are being produced in the USA, but import duty, etc would push the price up considerably over list.

I'll be buying a barrel, possibly a 32-34" Lilja, Krieger or Badger, but all the rest of the work will by me, including stocking, colour case hardening and blueing. I'm just taking my time, but I hope to have it finished and belching smoke and lead by next summer.

Building a rifle isn't for the faint hearted, but I did spend some years working as an engineer in a tool room, so I have the metalworking experience. The receiver is 0.300" thicker than normal size, I'll reduce it to finished size once all the milling work is finished. It is made from a 'Mild Steel' (low carbon) and is easily marked or 'dinged' until hardened.

I'll probably chamber it for 45/90 which appears to be a decent BP round for 1,000 yard work. The recoil should be quite mild compared to some of the rifles I've owned in the past.

Harry

[Doughty]

Harry,

You might want to check the BPCR rules. I've heard that the Borchardts aren't allowed because the hammer isn't exposed.

[floodgate]

chunkum:

That's a nice old Ideal "No. 6 Special" tool with the "single-adjustable" chamber (djustable for crimp only, not for bullet seating); boolit looks like the #457124 405-grainer (and mould should be so marked; the die should have a small stamping "89 - 124"). With the set-screw for the sprueplate pivot screw and the mould alignment peg, it is post 1901; if Marlin-marked, it dates from 1910-1915; if not, pre-1910. You are VERY lucky to have the original drop-in decapper/crimp flarer with an un-bent or -broken decap pin. These go in the $150 - 250 range currently to collectors (drool!).

floodgate

[chunkum]

floodgate,
Thanks for the information on the old mould/tool combo. I'll print that and put it in the box with the mould.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[montana_charlie]

Probably the most "businesslike" individual on the original Buffalo range was Frank Mayer. Here is an excerpt from his book, Buffalo Harvest...

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

Dale,
I have never had much more that a passing interest in the elimination of the buffalo. I knew it happened...came to wish that it hadn't...and was never very anxious to find out how it took place.

It is the capabilities of the rifles used that intrigues me.

However, I read that excerpt you posted a link for. Thanks for doing that. It pretty well answers any lingering questions I may have had.

As for the original topic of the thread...about whether bullet casting over a campfire is possible...everyone from buffalo runners back to soldiers in Napoleonic armies knew that it is.
And, I've done it myself.
CM

[Harry Eales]

Harry,

You might want to check the BPCR rules. I've heard that the Borchardts aren't allowed because the hammer isn't exposed.

Hot Damn Vic,

I thought that they would have settled that rule by now. It's ridiculous not allowing Borchardts, it also cuts out all the hammerless Martini's as well. Both are well within the age range and both were produced in far greater numbers than some of the other guns they do let shoot.

Funny, they let modern hammer guns in though.

What are they worried about? Maybe they're afraid Borchardts will sweep the board. Heh, heh.

Stlll, I believe Borchards are allowed in Long Range Competitions. That'll do me.

Harry

[waksupi]

Harry, can you give us a run down on your method for color case hardening?

As far as the elimination of the buffalo, it wasn't all the Sharps rifle that was the cause. The Indians were great hide gatherers, and were the mainstay hide in such places as Ft. Union. This trade started many years before the commercial hunters hit the plains. Transport was by way of the Missouri River, and the tributaries. Read" Thirty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri", for some insight into the trade. The Whiskey Trail, and Ft. Whoop-up in Canada also caused the demise of many buffalo, to trade for firewater. (Read the book, "Firewater". Gives some interesting insight into the early days of the democratic party, and the birth of the RCMP)
And, they were nearly as wasteful as the more modern hide hunters were.
One researcher made claims, that the main thing that killed off the buffalo, was tick fever, brought north by Texas cattle. Very possible, as the northern herd wouldn't have any resistance to a "foriegn" disease.
Mair Sandoz book, "The Buffalo Hunters", also makes an interesting read, as does Walter Coopers, " A Most Desperate Situation", a highly romanisized account of his days during the big hunt period. Cooper eventually settled in Bozeman, Montana, and was a supplier of rifles and goods to hunters. His rifles are very collectable, as are the Fruend, Gemmer, and Slaughterbotham(SP) variations.

[Harry Eales]

Hello Waksupi,
Thanks for your post.

Re colour case hardening. My efforts in the past were fairly primative in that I used a Blacksmiths Forge as the heating source.

As a hardening medium I used a mixture of 50% Oak charcoal, 30% charred bone meal and 20% charred leather.

The charcoal I got from a local charcoal burner (they still make it in my local woods) The bone meal was from a horticultural supplies firm and the leather was scraps from several Cobblers Shops (Shoe repairers).

The charcoal was crushed into very small size lumps. The bone meal and leather were charred in an old cast iron pan until they blackened (A slow and tedious process) and then all three components were well mixed together.

As a crucible I used a piece of 2" dia pipe screwed at both ends and two pipe caps.
One cap was screwed into place and the pipe partially loaded with the mixture. The parts after degreasing and then washing clean in boiling water were allowed to dry, and these were placed between layers of the mixture until the pipe was full.

The end cap was then screwed on and the pipe put into the forge. The fuel used was 'Coke'. (a fuel made from coal) Temperature was judged by eyeing the red colour the pipe took on. (Not a recommended method, but I had no other way of measuring the temperature) I never took it over a 'dull cherry colour' and controlled the temperature by using an air blower or fan which pumped air into the forge base.

The quench tank was an old wooden barrel filled with water with an iron wire basket hung inside near the bottom. After about two - three hours in the forge the pipe was removed, the end cap removed over the quench tank and everything but the pipe was dropped into the tank.

Sometimes I got colours, sometimes they didn't appear, although the items were hardened. It's a very hit or miss method. I tried bubbling oxygen into the water once, for about an hour before quenching but the bubbler stopped working before the quench, as the oxygen cylinder ran out.

Today I have access, through the kindness of a local heat treatment company of using one of their electronically controlled furnaces, which will make the heating side of the work much simpler. I've yet to try and colour case harden anything as large as a Borchardt receiver.

Getting the cap of the pipe when it is red hot is a problem and can be difficult. I found it easier to machine away most of the internal thread on the cap leaving only 2-3 turns of thread. You do need Blacksmiths tools to handle the pipe, the longer they are the better. I do need a better of design of crucible than the pipe, and I'm working on that idea.

My method was very crude, almost 'Backwoods style'. Getting the colours is not easy, and I don't know of a method that is reliable 100% of the time. If colour does not appear, the hardened parts can be brushed with a 3 thou wire wheel and this produces the French Grey colour which is not displeasing, or the part can be blued.

It's been 10 or more years since I last tried to 'colour case harden' and I will be better prepared this time. The company that is letting me hire the use of their furnace had never heard of colour case hardening and I think they're only letting me do it on their premises to see how it is done. lol. I've used them before for stress relieving metal before machining it, and they've always done a good job at reasonable rates.

I had considered buying a ceramic 'potters' furnace, but then I found out the cost. It's better and much cheaper to hire the use of proper equipment.

I don't know of any commercial company in the U/K that does colour case work, so it a case (pardon the pun) of having to try and do it myself.

Harry

[Wayne Smith]

About goods available to the Westerners - there's an article in, I think, the current Smithsonian about the discovery and excavation of a sunken riverboat along an old Mississippi channel, just post Civil War. The variety and volume of goods being transported is apparently opening the eyes of some historians of the period.

[Junior1942]

>The variety and volume of goods being transported is apparently opening the eyes of some historians of the period.

I helped in an archaeological dig on a circa 1810 plantation site along the Tensas River in north Louisiana. Those 1810 people ate a lot of fresh oysters, to my amazement. Those oysters came iced-down via steamboat up the Mississippi River from New Orleans, then up various other rivers to the plantation, which was remote even in 1810.

[7br]

About goods available to the Westerners - there's an article in, I think, the current Smithsonian about the discovery and excavation of a sunken riverboat along an old Mississippi channel, just post Civil War. The variety and volume of goods being transported is apparently opening the eyes of some historians of the period.

Wayne,
You might check out this link. This is the steamship arabia museum located in Kansas City. Sunk in 1856 and excavated in the 1990's. One of these days, we are planning a trip to the Great Wolf Lodge in KC, an afternoon in the Arabia museum, and then road trip up to Hannibal MO to visit the Mark Twain stuff there. We will watch a Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn dvd on the way up.

http://www.1856.com/

[Txredraider]

Finally a topic I can add something to the discussion about in this forum: DUNG!

I enjoyed reading all the replies to this point, but thought that I might be able to help our distinguished friend from across the pond understand just how the buffalo chips might be able to perform in a manner similar to wood as a fuel source.

Buffalo are essentially ruminants, fairly similar to cattle in their digestive mechanisms. Something to remember about ruminants and pseudo-ruminants, such as deer, elk, and moose, is that the feed they consume isn’t to feed themselves; instead it is to feed the microbial population in their fermentation chamber (usually the rumen). The bacteria and fungi in that live symbiotically inside these animals are primarily fiber digesters that produce energy rich compounds which the animals can utilize directly in their own metabolic activities. In return, the host animal provides warmth, food, and moisture for the microbes. It is a very elegant system that is still not fully understood even after several hundred years of study.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the primary sugar polymer that is contained in grasses, such as those found on the tall grass prairies, is cellulose. Unfortunately, there isn’t an animal that I’m aware of that can directly digest cellulose. Even termites utilize a symbiotic relationship with bacteria like that outlined above to derive energy from wood. Speaking of wood, guess what the primary structural carbohydrate in wood is: cellulose. What is the difference between wood and grass, on a cellulose basis? Another compound called lignin that ties the bundles of cellulose together, making them less flexible and also less digestible to animals. That is why we can’t feed wood chips to cattle, for more than a few days anyway! By the way, the real way that ethanol might actually be a viable fuel source for us here in the U.S. on any kind of large scale is through the fermentation of highly lignified material, such as wood waste or biomass. In my opinion the only real economic difference we’ll see from corn-based ethanol schemes is higher corn prices, which leads to higher feed prices. It is pretty easy to see where higher corn prices lead in the food chain from there.

Another quick Clint Claven-style factoid: the main difference between the starches we can directly digest (potatoes, corn, etc) and cellulose (wood, paper, grass) is the conformation of the bonds between the glucose molecules. (Who knew that biochemistry would actually come in handy in the shooting sports?)

Now dung is, by definition, the material that was not digested by either the microbes or the animal that have passed through the digestive tract. Mostly, dung is whatever it was before it was consumed. In the case of the buffalo (and don’t give me any of that “bison” crap) that means grass and water. If the lignified cellulose is difficult to digest and the chip is allowed to dry in the semi-arid environment of the plains, what is left in the chip? Basically a less dense version of wood that is aromatic in a whole different way than cedar! The energy given off per pound of material burned is not going to approach that of an oak or charcoal fire, but with enough chips that energy can be harnessed to produce enough heat to melt lead.

As I look out my office window this morning at the 30 mph North wind and the snow it is blowing around, I wouldn’t want to be out there trying to do anything in that weather. Our ancestors were cut from a much tougher cloth!

Sorry about the dissertation there, gentlemen, but I can get a little carried away with feces sometimes! Seriously, I’m glad to be able to finally add something to a discussion here and hope it shows some of my appreciation for this forum and its members.

Tx

[felix]

Well, TxRedRaider, I for one really enjoyed your post. Rose growers typically search high and wide for elephant poop for the reasons you indirectly mentioned. It would have the best retained heat value by default. As far as gun stuff goes, you need to mention Nobel and DuPont who really cared about the poop, animal fabricated or otherwise rendered. The type of cellulose is what makes the european powders seemingly cleaner burning, and easier to combine individual lots into much larger ones as one lot. ... felix

[Doughty]

This is all starting to sound like a lot of BS.

[sundog]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundog

[woody1]

Finally a topic I can add something to the discussion about in this forum: DUNG!
The energy given off per pound of material burned is not going to approach that of an oak or charcoal fire, but with enough chips that energy can be harnessed to produce enough heat to melt lead.

Tx
Buffalo chips vs. wood - Actually, on a BTU per pound basis I think you'll find the energy content to be more similar than one would think. Regards, Woody

[felix]

Yeah, Sundog! Do you think they "steamed" it down from the Artic, using wood chips, dung, or whatever, for insulation? ... felix

[Junior1942]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundogCut from frozen northern lakes in the winter and shipped south packed in sawdust.

[floodgate]

Sundog:

From what I've read, they cut ice in winter in the northern states and provinces or up in the higher mountains and shipped it, packed in sawdust, by wagon or by water - and later by rail - to the points of use, where it was stored in insulated cribs until needed.

floodgate

[carpetman]

Can you imagine the rig BruceB would have had he been a buffalo hunter? Now Der Schutzenwagen is pretty sophisticated indeed,but would pale to his buffalo rig. This self contained buffalo shooting rig would have it all. To start off it would be drawn by a buffalo. The buffalo would be able to locate the other buffalo---the forerunner to the GPS.(It is not known how they locate other buffalo--Some Canadian Scientists think it is a pee splatter method) For sure if they couldn't locate other buffalo they would be extinct,so we know they can do it. The buffalo would have a poop shute attachment so that the poop goes directly into a metobolic activity increaser---a super charger if you will. This would increase the poop output. The buffalo would run on ex-lax enhanced cellulose which would be mixed in a lingin remover chamber---like a refinery. This lingin removal would make it possible to use wood chips. Some of you might not be familar with this process,but apparently you could take a course at Texas Tech and know all about it(Don't know if Texas A&M offers such or not---they arent generally known to know their $hit). But if you don't want to take a course--don't worry about it---it's a moot point as there weren't any wood chips available anyways---read the post that started this thread. Now with all this poop enhancement fuel and a super charged buffalo we are knee deep in poop. So it goes to the plains simulator. The plains simulator is really a dryer where it simulates laying on the plains. From the simulator it has to be fed---make that scooped (don't say fed when talking about poop except when discussing mushrooms)into the melting pot burner. Here's where Maven comes in. With extensive training and a couple of night classes,he has learned how to scoop coal on a locomotive. With more training and more classes,he would probably learn to scoop poop. The smelting step is omitted---wheelweights back in buffalo days didnt have clips as there were no automobiles. So BruceB would be doing the BruceB and casting a big pile of bullets as they were enroute to the buffalo. Now this all sounds rosey. But it wasn't--but it would be if it were elephant drawn.

[ron brooks]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundog


I'm pretty sure in 1810 they made ice the same way we do today, by getting water to a temperature below 32 degrees F. :-)

Ron

[KCSO]

The first Sheriff i worked for had a job cutting ice on the Missouri River in the 1930's . They stored the ice in blocks in sawdust and that is what all the saloons in the country used to cool the beer throuout the summer. I got the ice saw he used and the first gas motor they used on their boat, a Johnson with a knob on the flywheel for a starter. He got into the work as his father and grandfasther had done that and his grandfather was a wood hawk for the steamboats.

[wills]

Refrigeration came into being later.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/RR/dqr1.html

[BruceB]

In the summer of 1963 I worked a summer job with Canadian National Railways in Edmonton, Alberta.

The passenger trains in those days were airconditioned via the simplest method imaginable....a fan pulling air across ice blocks in a bin under the floor. Part of my crew's job was servicing the trains during the short period they stopped in Edmonton. There was a BIG icehouse right at the depot, several hundred feet deep and four stories high, and blocks were piled twenty tiers or more high, along with their sawdust insulation.

We had a set of portable steel rails mostly in six- foot sections, which we'd string together as needed from the upper reaches of the ice stacks....maybe a couple hundred feet sometimes. A block would be placed on the rails, and abandoned to gravity....WHOOSH! It would tear down the tracks, around bends and whatever, and smash into a little gravity-operated "elevator" which would promptly descend under its weight.

A man with an icecart would pull the block out into the cart with his tongs (elevator slammed to a halt at just the right level) and the counterweight would immediately pull the elevator back up for another loading. NO motor, NO operator, just gravity doing its job. The carts would hold six or eight blocks, and a train of eight or ten icecarts would travel the length of the passenger train and refill the icebins on each car. The meltwater would just drip out of the icebins onto the roadbed as the train travelled.

Not only did this task provide some entertainment in watching the blocks go screaming down to the elevator, but on a hot summer day it was very pleasant work. Complete trainloads of iceblocks were cut in Northern Alberta in the winter time and unloaded in Edmonton while it was still cold. I didn't do that part of the job. For all I know, they may still be doing this! Eco-friendly, no disposal problems, and it worked quite well.

I have cut ice from frozen lakes to fill local icehouses. It can be quite a job, but not too bad if the right tools and techniques are used. It's adviseable not to fall in the hole....the water temp is on the "brisk" side.

Memories....

[sundog]

Ron, yorn logic is overwhelming! Thank you. And I got a good chuckle, too!

I lived in Maine in the early 60s and, maybe even now, it was big 'sport' to get out and cut ice and fill the ice houses. The ice lasted well into the summer. So, I don't see why it would be unreasonable to ship it as any other commodity. sundog

[Junior1942]

Back in sailboat days a guy even came up with a scheme to tow an iceberg down the Atlantic coast to the south.

[felix]

Shouldn't be a problem anymore, selecting one or more being the correct size to pull down because of the "global" warming busting the larger ones up. ... felix

[waksupi]

Finally a topic I can add something to the discussion about in this forum: DUNG!

I enjoyed reading all the replies to this point, but thought that I might be able to help our distinguished friend from across the pond understand just how the buffalo chips might be able to perform in a manner similar to wood as a fuel source.

Buffalo are essentially ruminants, fairly similar to cattle in their digestive mechanisms. Something to remember about ruminants and pseudo-ruminants, such as deer, elk, and moose, is that the feed they consume isn’t to feed themselves; instead it is to feed the microbial population in their fermentation chamber (usually the rumen). The bacteria and fungi in that live symbiotically inside these animals are primarily fiber digesters that produce energy rich compounds which the animals can utilize directly in their own metabolic activities. In return, the host animal provides warmth, food, and moisture for the microbes. It is a very elegant system that is still not fully understood even after several hundred years of study.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the primary sugar polymer that is contained in grasses, such as those found on the tall grass prairies, is cellulose. Unfortunately, there isn’t an animal that I’m aware of that can directly digest cellulose. Even termites utilize a symbiotic relationship with bacteria like that outlined above to derive energy from wood. Speaking of wood, guess what the primary structural carbohydrate in wood is: cellulose. What is the difference between wood and grass, on a cellulose basis? Another compound called lignin that ties the bundles of cellulose together, making them less flexible and also less digestible to animals. That is why we can’t feed wood chips to cattle, for more than a few days anyway! By the way, the real way that ethanol might actually be a viable fuel source for us here in the U.S. on any kind of large scale is through the fermentation of highly lignified material, such as wood waste or biomass. In my opinion the only real economic difference we’ll see from corn-based ethanol schemes is higher corn prices, which leads to higher feed prices. It is pretty easy to see where higher corn prices lead in the food chain from there.

Another quick Clint Claven-style factoid: the main difference between the starches we can directly digest (potatoes, corn, etc) and cellulose (wood, paper, grass) is the conformation of the bonds between the glucose molecules. (Who knew that biochemistry would actually come in handy in the shooting sports?)

Now dung is, by definition, the material that was not digested by either the microbes or the animal that have passed through the digestive tract. Mostly, dung is whatever it was before it was consumed. In the case of the buffalo (and don’t give me any of that “bison” crap) that means grass and water. If the lignified cellulose is difficult to digest and the chip is allowed to dry in the semi-arid environment of the plains, what is left in the chip? Basically a less dense version of wood that is aromatic in a whole different way than cedar! The energy given off per pound of material burned is not going to approach that of an oak or charcoal fire, but with enough chips that energy can be harnessed to produce enough heat to melt lead.

As I look out my office window this morning at the 30 mph North wind and the snow it is blowing around, I wouldn’t want to be out there trying to do anything in that weather. Our ancestors were cut from a much tougher cloth!

Sorry about the dissertation there, gentlemen, but I can get a little carried away with feces sometimes! Seriously, I’m glad to be able to finally add something to a discussion here and hope it shows some of my appreciation for this forum and its members.

Tx

Tex, I must say, you really know your...

dung!

[Harry Eales]

Harry Eales---You mentioned wanting more oxygen for the color case hardening. I have no clue,but wondered if using peroxide for quenching might work? Peroxide is H2O2---basically water with an extra oygen jobber do. Do a google search on peroxide and read about it.

Hello Carpetman,

H2O2 is only available in a very mild solution in the UK, it's main use is an antiseptic and for turning brunettes into blondes.

To fill a 35 gallon quench tank would cost me about two months pension. lol.

I'll stick to the Oxygen bubbler I think. Thanks for the tip anyway.

Harry

[carpetman]

My dad had some ice skates up in the garage attic long before I came along. He and his father in law would ice skate on Lake Wichita,there in Wichita Falls. Apparently it froze most if not all winters back then. To my knowledge,the lake never froze where you could walk on it during my time. There was a drainage ditch behind our field that had some ponds on it. One time it froze and my older brother skated on it. It never froze to where I had a chance to use those skates. I think this is all due to global warming. It could be that with all the impurities in water nowdays it is harder to freeze it solid???? This has nothing to do with making ice in 1810. It is my understanding that many places had ice cellars for storing ice.

[Txredraider]

That's a first for me. I've never been accused of knowing anything before. In fact I've been told quite specifically that I don't know.....dung.

[Leftoverdj]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundog


At least as far south as Virginia, ice was made by diverting a stream onto shallow shaded ponds. By adding an inch or two of water on the existing ice each day or two, a thick layer could be built up most years.

[flhroy]

Sundog ice was cut from the frozen lakes and ponds up nort in winter with horse drawn implements.It was then stored in ice houses untill needed.

[Leftoverdj]

Laura Ingalls Wilder tells us that in the absence of other fuel, tightly braided grass works as a wood substitute.

[carpetman]

Txredraider---What town would that be South of scenic Lubbock? Perhaps Tahoka? BTW which part of Lubbock is the scenic part---I missed it?

[floodgate]

UH-OH --- Cat-PET-man's off his meds again!

[TCLouis]

Cut from frozen northern lakes in the winter and shipped south packed in sawdust.


This is likely why ice used to come in 150 pound blocks from the ice company (heck that was in my time) with afreas where one could pull the ice pick out of the scabbard usuall in the wall and break pieces off in 25 or 50 pound blocks for sale. The local gas station had an ice house and one bought ice in 25 or 50 pound blocks. It very likely copied the size of the ice cut from lakes during the winter and stored underground in ice houses packed in sawdust or rice hulls for later use. Look for ice saw and see what one finds on the net. Picture should look like a cross-cut saw with handle on only one end and funny looking teeth.
I guess the term, "ice box turned" into frididaire and then rerefrigerator in common use during my lifetime.
Dadgum, does this all mean I'm gettin old?

[felix]

Just call the gadgets as ice boxes and be done with it. If somebody raises a flag, just say it's an electric ice box in return. ... felix

[TCLouis]

That's a first for me. I've never been accused of knowing anything before. In fact I've been told quite specifically that I don't know.....dung.

Is that Jack or his cousin beetle

[floodgate]

Felix:

PUHLEEZEE!! Stop using the term "global" warming! I don't care about the warming part - it may even be true - but that "global" just promotes the "Round Earth" myth!!!

floodgate

"IT ISN'T ROUND; IT'S FLAT!"

[C A Plater]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundog
It wasn't made as much as harvested from lakes and rivers. Stored for later use in ice houses insulated with sawdust and straw.

[felix]

Yeah, you're right. It's gotta' be flat so ice can grow on rivers and lakes. Sorry, my error! ... felix

[carpetman]

TCLouis---All that stuff in your lifetime----does that mean you are getting old? NO. You have already arrived. Recently my son in law and daughter and I were in a country type cafe. On the wall was a pair of ice hooks. Neither one of them knew what they were.

[carpetman]

Floodgate Doug---You are correct--all that stuff about the earth being round was promoted by a guy that takes credit for discovering an inhabited place. Have you ever known one person that takes credit for discovering an inhabited place that could be trusted?

[wills]

TCLouis---All that stuff in your lifetime----does that mean you are getting old? NO. You have already arrived. Recently my son in law and daughter and I were in a country type cafe. On the wall was a pair of ice hooks. Neither one of them knew what they were.

Probably neither of them ever lived far enough north to go ice fishing.

[carpetman]

Wills--Ice fishing??? I was speaking of the hooks used to carry a block of ice.

[Txredraider]

Txredraider---What town would that be South of scenic Lubbock? Perhaps Tahoka? BTW which part of Lubbock is the scenic part---I missed it?


Not quite Tahoka, but close. We live in bustling Wilson, TX. We're moving soon because the population density is getting too high. The last I heard Lynn County (6500 people total) was up to 7.2 people per square mile, although that's skewed a bit by the big cities like Tahoka with its 2300 souls.

All of Lubbock is the scenic part, and you can scenic every bit of it without doing anything other than turning 360 degrees. If someone sneaks up on you out here, it is your own fault. I often wonder how many frontier suicides were written off as indian attacks instead of their true cause: wind insanity.

[carpetman]

Txredraider---Moving from Wilson--where to? Are you involved with the feeding or erradication of bo weevils?

[Txredraider]

I'm changing jobs and we're moving back to our home town in east Texas, about 70 miles southeast of Dallas. The only interaction I have ever had with the boll weevil is hoping that they would make a comeback and run the sodbusters out of business so that we could have grass back on the south plains again. I even considered raising them for a time in a crop rotation with tumble weeds and goat heads!



Txredraider---Moving from Wilson--where to? Are you involved with the feeding or erradication of bo weevils?

[Freightman]

I live in Amarillo and know some folks who are waiting on a calm day to sight in there rifles, they have missed the last five hunting seasons.

[44man]

Been reading this with a lot of chuckles. Don't know how it got from lead to ice but you guys are great. You all need to write a book of jokes! Thank you for the fun.

[Abert Rim]

Tex: Appreciate your post on the biochemistry of cellulose. I am sorry to hear you have goathead in Texas, as it is an invader here in Oregon along with G.D. star thistle.
As to using buffalo chips to melt lead, I would bet on it without a second thought. Plenty of heat in a glowing bed of chip coals, and the pottery traditions among the Indians of New Mexico include firing their works in dung based fires for both heat and a smothering, reduction atmosphere.
If it weren't so dang wet here in Oregon, I'd gather up a mess o' cow chips, lay a fire and take pictures of the molten lead in the old Ideal pot.

[montana_charlie]

Been reading this with a lot of chuckles. Don't know how it got from lead to ice but you guys are great. You all need to write a book of jokes! Thank you for the fun.
I'm just reading along when somebody mentions Lubbock. Well, as a boy (growin' up around Potter County) I did have occasion to get south of Swisher County, and therefore out of the Panhandle. That always occurred on trips to visit Lubbock. Why we wanted to visit Lubbock was somethin' Daddy never let on about.

But, I was content to continue reading until somebody mentioned the wind in Amarillo. Now, that's even closer to home. I don't think the Potter County Hospital still exists because Amarillo probably grew out enough to swallow it up. But, even though it was outside the city limits, my birth certificate says I was born in Amarillo...and most of my fundamental character development took place in and around that area.

'Course, that isn't really material to the discussion...but then 44man comes out with a suggestion that stuff like this outta get wrote down.
Well...I have. And here is one of 'em...

If you are a native of the Lone Star State, you are fully aware that most babies in Texas are born fully clothed. Well...as it happened, I was the only premature baby ever born in Potter County Hospital.

Now I don't mean to say that I was overanxious to say 'Howdy' to folks. Mamma carried me ever bit as long as the book says she should. It's just that I was born bare nekid…except for boots and a hat!

That don't mean I weren't fully formed, 'cause everything I would need in life was present and I was normal sized...just shy of fifty-nine inches tall. But when the doctors saw what they had delivered, they just naturally assumed that this was one of those 'premature infants' they had read about in the medical books. So they decided to try and keep me alive, to see if they could make a real Texan out of what they had available.

Since it was late February and calvin' season was in full swing, no one in the area had a calf warmer they could spare. So they sent up north...way up north...plumb to Oklahoma City for one of those little electric boxes that somebody had invented to 'cook' a preemie in 'til he was done.

Now Daddy didn't care if I had come early, late, or inside out...he was hankerin' to show off his first kid, and tickled that I had turned out as a boy. He had invited all his pals over to the hospital to have a gander and there was a big box of pretty good cigars layin' beside me for those that were so inclined. I don't remember feelin' crowded, but that hotbox was built for Yankee kids and them cigars took up a fair amount of territory. Anyhow the doctors said that Daddy's gang would have to move on so they could close the lid and plug me in somewhere. And that 'somewhere' turned to be the only extra electric outlet in Potter County Hospital.

The day after I signed on was George Washington's birthday and they pretty well shut down everything in the hospital to go into Amarillo and celebrate. Now, residents of the Panhandle remember 1946 as one of the coldest winters on record and February was a real pipe buster. To stay in a celebratin' mood everybody in the county was runnin' the heaters at full bore and before long the local electric co-op just gave up the ghost. But by that time George Washington and Daddy had been toasted so many times that nobody really cared a hoot, so they built some bonfires over on Polk Street and danced 'til sunup.

The next mornin’ it was a sorry-lookin' bunch of sore-headed folks that came to open up the hospital. They found a mess almost as bad as the main ballroom on the Titanic after it smacked in to the big ice cube. Pipes had froze and busted and there was water enough to irrigate Arizona. It was a hung-over nurse lookin' for a mop that opened the janitorial closet where my little cookin’ box had got plugged in. Bein' tucked away like that, they had plumb forgot that I might need some lookin' after. Natcherly, she slammed outta there like a ropin' calf at a rodeo to fetch a doctor…so he could decide if there was anything in the box worth sendin' home. As it happened, I was a might hungry 'cause the round steak they had given me for a pacifier was just a memory...and I was a little chilly.

That doctor called Daddy in and told him the whole story without tryin' to blame it on nobody but his self. (You wouldn't expect anything else from a born Texan.) When Daddy asked him how come it was that I didn't freeze that doctor said, "The way I see it, that youngun woulda been froze hard as stone if it weren't for him smokin' that whole box of cigars...one after another."

Now you would've thought that all that tobacco might've stunted my growth. And it was probably so, 'cause those clothes I was missin' never did grow in. It's always been my contention that a 'hard start' was responsible for the fact that I'm not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree...which gave my little brother Patrick a chance to shine. But, of course, that's another story.

Charlie Maxwell

[highwallbo]

You still like dem ceeeeegars?

[montana_charlie]

I'd rather smoke buffalo chips...

[Txredraider]

I'd rather smoke buffalo chips...

Well, like a lot of threads that I've read on here and Shooters over the years, this one has finally come full circle. Now we just have to separate the fact from the fiction.

The story about all the pipes freezing in the hospital makes me think of my favorite Ace Reid "Cowpokes" cartoon. Two cowboys are saddling their horses in snow that is chest deep and you can tell the wind is blowing to beat hell. One looks at the other and says "Man, I'll bet its cold in Amarillo!".

The other story that makes me think of is about one pen rider in a feedyard riding up to another. "Hey, do me a favor and pull the hood of my jacket up over my head", he says to his cohort. "Its already there", his friend replies. "Damn, I was afraid of that", says the first pen rider.

If you can stay out of the wind in this country, the cold isn't too bad. I've been out when it was 6 degrees and it really wasn't that bad. However, when I stepped out into the wind it was so cold that it made me want to scream. I drew in to let out a good yell, and it was so cold that I couldn't.

That should get the pump primed with this crew to get some good windies going about how cold it was when they walked to school uphill both ways 5 miles in the snow, just so they could meet up with their friends to band together so the wolves didn't eat them so they could finish the hard part of the journey.

[MT Gianni]

My favorite Ace Reid cartoon is the TV repairman at the ranch house saying "The real reason you folk's ain't getting a good picture is you done bought yourselves a microwave oven". Gianni.

[montana_charlie]

"...you done bought yourselves a microwave oven".
That one cracked me up...I'll remember it.

...snow that is chest deep...

...about one pen rider in a feedyard...

...it was so cold that it made me want to scream...
I think I have a tale or two (in my Panhandle folder) on each of those subjects. Any preferences...?
CM

[waksupi]

Well, like a lot of threads that I've read on here and Shooters over the years, this one has finally come full circle. Now we just have to separate the fact from the fiction.

The story about all the pipes freezing in the hospital makes me think of my favorite Ace Reid "Cowpokes" cartoon. Two cowboys are saddling their horses in snow that is chest deep and you can tell the wind is blowing to beat hell. One looks at the other and says "Man, I'll bet its cold in Amarillo!".

The other story that makes me think of is about one pen rider in a feedyard riding up to another. "Hey, do me a favor and pull the hood of my jacket up over my head", he says to his cohort. "Its already there", his friend replies. "Damn, I was afraid of that", says the first pen rider.

If you can stay out of the wind in this country, the cold isn't too bad. I've been out when it was 6 degrees and it really wasn't that bad. However, when I stepped out into the wind it was so cold that it made me want to scream. I drew in to let out a good yell, and it was so cold that I couldn't.

That should get the pump primed with this crew to get some good windies going about how cold it was when they walked to school uphill both ways 5 miles in the snow, just so they could meet up with their friends to band together so the wolves didn't eat them so they could finish the hard part of the journey.

Good start there, Tex.
I figured out years ago, there was something seriously wrong with me. For some reason, as miserable as it was, I enjoyed feeding cattle out on the plains in the winter. It could be minus 35 F, wind blowing like there was nothing to stop it. The cold was cutting through a person like an icy knife, and if you didn't have a scarf over your mouth, you couldn't breath, or if you did , you would have frost bit lungs in a few minutes. But I did like it. I think the reason was, I knew I, that hay, and what fresh water I could keep broken loose for them for an hour or so, was the only thing that was keeping them alive. Some times you would see one with ears, or a tail frozen off. Some times an udder.
Winter can be tough. Those who haven't been out keeping things alive in it, don't realise it's full danger. I'm glad my intelligence level raised a couple points, and I don't cowboy anymore.
But, I do miss it.

[Txredraider]

Good start there, Tex.
Some times you would see one with ears, or a tail frozen off. Some times an udder.
Winter can be tough. Those who haven't been out keeping things alive in it, don't realise it's full danger. I'm glad my intelligence level raised a couple points, and I don't cowboy anymore.
But, I do miss it.

Waksupi,

I'm pretty sure that when entire pieces freeze off of your domesticated animals that the man upstairs is trying to tell you that folks ain't supposed to live that far north!

I went to North Dakota in mid spring one year and was given a tour of the ND State University Beef facility. As we drove around (too damn cold for this Texas boy to be out in that weather), I watched someone with a front end loader scattering a nice looking round bale of hay to hell and gone. All I could think of was the beating my daddy would have given me for such an action. My guide must have seen the look on my face and he was kind enough to explain to me that if they didn't do that fairly regularly to allow the animals somewhere to "nest", the cattle wouldn't be able to keep from freezing to death.

I've never been up to that Wyoming/Montana/Idaho country, but would love to see it some day. However, rest assured that it will be during the balmy days of summer before you have to worry about an infestation of Texans. Heck, if you had milder weather like Colorado, you'd probably hate Texans as much as they do!

There is something about caring for and raising animals that is difficult to describe to those who haven't done it. It isn't the glamor, that wears pretty thin during triple or single digit heat, hailstorms, and Brahman cattle. It is something about the balance between you and the animals. Looking at a 1200 pound cow, you'd never think she needed your help for anything, but when she needs it, she needs it badly. However, don't mistake need for gratitude, as animals have very little of that to give you. I've seen a lot of folks that didn't grow up in that lifestyle think that once they pulled a calf or lanced an edema that the animal would appreciate them. That's always good for a chuckle, from a safe distance of course. The real reward comes from inside yourself, the glow of a difficult piece of work done well.

What I just wrote was tough talk from a man who hasn't had any animals to take care of in about 5 years, but with the move we're making I'll remedy that somehow in the not-too-distant future, but on a very limited scale.

[BerdanIII]

You Texas boys should know about Ft. Griffin out near Albany; the fort was founded primarily to keep the hide hunters out of trouble while they shot out the Southern Herd. Trees are all over the place down there, especially along the bottoms. No need for burning buffler poop.

[montana_charlie]

if they didn't do that fairly regularly to allow the animals somewhere to "nest", the cattle wouldn't be able to keep from freezing to death.
We moved to Montana back in '76, and over the years have learned much about existence in a cold climate. One of those things is that...once our ground freezes, it never thaws out until around late April.

It was about 15 years ago that we started keeping cattle. Our closest neighbor (Paul) is a native, and was raised on the place he now runs. And, it is from his herd of fancy-quality Polled Herefords that we buy our cows.
When we bought our first set of heifers from him he had his doubts that this 'Air Force retiree', this 'guy from town', this 'transplanted Texan' could keep them alive long enough to make a calf crop the following summer...especially with a Montana winter to get through, first.
I was gambling that the 10 years of experience I had picked up from working (off and on - a few days at a time) at a large ranch to the east would be enough to get me going.

One day during our fourth or fifth year in cattle, Paul and I were out in the field, just chatting. The weather had just recently warmed up from a viciously cold spell. The chinook had been blowing hard for a few days, so all the snow was gone, and the temperature was up near 30, so (in the sunshine and all) it was pretty pleasant.

Paul was looking at my biggest Angus bull when he asked if I had bulls fertility checked every spring. I was surprised by the question, as I had never felt the need for that test. When I said so, and asked why he mentioned it, he said, "Well, I notice that you don't keep straw spread in the field for him, and he's laying out there now on frozen ground. If his nuts are froze, he won't make many calves next summer..."

As it happened, the animal had free access to a barn...which was kept bedded...and was laying outside because he wanted to, not because he had nowhere else to lay. But, I had never considered the fact that Paul had so subtly just taught me during that conversation.

I have learned that when Paul asks a question that seems to come from left field, I should never blow it off as 'just conversation'. Most usually he has an important tip for me...and he's too much of a gentleman to just come out and tell me where I'm going wrong. On the other hand, if he sees me following a program he is not familiar with, he's willing to learn a new trick...even if it comes from someone less experienced than himself.

Good neighbors are a treasure in any environment, but doubly valuable in a place where the weather can kill you (and your animals) if you are bothered by forgetfulness...or ignorance.
CM

[carpetman]

Montana Charlie--A texas fellow retired from the Air Force and moved to Montana to enjoy the easy life. He was gonna raise cows. No more setting the alarm clock,just sleep in and let the money roll in. He bought a small spread and 20 cows to start. He told his neighbor of his plan. His neighbor inquired where was his bull? Well he had forgotten about that small detail. His neighbor said well bring em to my place about 4AM tomorrow and you can use my bull. Well he reluctantly got up the next morning at 3:00 and loaded em up and went over---just getting up that one time wouldnt be so bad. When finished he asked his neighbor how would he know that it worked. Neighbor said if at 3AM tomorrow any that are standing up will need to come back and if they are laying down,it took. Well he got up at 3AM and all 20 were standing,so he loaded up and took em back to the neighbors bull. The neighbor gave him same instructions---check em at 3:00 in the morning. Next morning the guy hated to look out,so he asked his wife to look out and see if they were standing or laying down. She said you have 2 standing in the back of your pickup,17 standing in the trailer and one honking your pickup horn.

[montana_charlie]

...and the springs on my pickup have sagged ever since that day. I'm just glad it wasn't a full-growed Texas jackrabbit standing in the bed.

That thought comes to mind because it was just this mornin' that I saw old Whitey for the first time this year.
I was heading' down our driveway to carry some hay to the cows. Lookin' ahead, I seen ol' Whitey settin' in the gravel and wonderin' if I was gonna run him over.

Whitey is a varying hare (a close cousin of the jackrabbit) which turns white in the winter...whether there's any snow, or not.
He took up residence, four or five years back, in a little ten inch culvert that runs under our drive...that drains a low spot in our south pasture. Bein' as we've been havin' a drought for five years, I don't reckon ol' Whitey has ever had a problem with wet feet.
I only see him around in the wintertime, 'cause the lack of snow makes him stick out like a muskmelon in a basket of peaches.

Anyhow, I was in somethin' of a hurry to get my feedin' done, and I figgered Whitey would just hop off to one side and let me by. Well durned if he didn't take off straight down the drive like the Devil was shoppin' for rabbit stew.
I was some concerned he might get tangled up in the cattle guard where the drive meets the county road, but he sailed over it like his first name was Evel and his last name was too far back in the dust to matter.
Seein' him take off like that reminded me of a time when I was a boy, growin' up in the Texas Panhandle.

That was the year when Daddy was helpin' a young feller from Topeka who wanted to open a new feed and seed store in Childress. His name was Hinderager, and he had inherited a store of the same kind from his Pappy...when the old man got burned up by some frozen fire over near Muleshoe. I guess business had been good, so he wanted to expand into Texas.

He told Daddy he had done a 'marketing study' by taking out a two-dollar ad in the classified section of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram which read, "I'd purely love to open a new feed and seed store in Texas. Which community would like to have the extra business?"
Daddy thought it was right neighborly of him to give folks a choice without just bargin' in, and the town council in Childress was the only bunch that wrote back.
So, to help him out, Daddy agreed to rent a truck and carry a set of scales from the train depot in Amarillo on over to Childress...and he asked if I wanted to go along!

Now, that had the makins' of a real trip! We would have to drive plumb across the Panhandle to where the eastern border hit the Red River. It was so dang far away, I wondered if we needed passports to make the trip. Daddy said no, but we prob'ly oughta pack along a lunch.

The old flatbed truck was a '49 Ford with one of those tiny little cabs and a sunvisor stickin' out over top of the windshield. The radiator leaked some, so I had a milkpail of water between my feet to top it up every fifty miles or so.
The scales were set right over the rear axle, and we had pumped in an extra ten pounds into each tire to carry the weight. It wasn't long before we had left town behind us and were rollin' high, wide, and handsome though some country this boy had never seen.

Daddy was commentin' on the looks of livestock we passed, and pointin' out wildflowers that were new to me when he stopped so sudden...I thought he'd swallered his chaw. Lookin' off to his left, and in a voice that was almost reverent, he allowed, real calm-like, "Son, that might the biggest jackrabbit in Texas."

Now, even a tenderfoot from Baltimore would know that the biggest jackrabbit in Texas would jest nacherly be the biggest jackrabbit in the world, so I was strainin' hard to git a look.
Daddy, bein' a big man, had the side window pretty well covered up, so I couldn't hardly peek past him. Then he said, "It looks like that skimmer is gonna jump the road right in front of us!' I was trying so hard to scrunch down to see out from under that danged sunvisor that I kicked over the bucket of radiator water just as Daddy said, "Look out the back winder...he'll pass right over us!"

Well, the little ol' rear window in those old trucks was about the size of a license plate, so all I did was nearly bust my nose. I can't say I ever saw one hair of that rabbit 'cause he cleared the ditch and lit in a heavy stand of mesquite jest as my eyes started to water. I was sure disappointed...but real excited about being able to claim that we (Daddy and me) seen the biggest jackrabbit in Texas!

That was when Daddy stuck a pin in my bubble. He said that since I hadn't actually seen that bunny, I wasn't to go tellin' folks that I did. He reminded me, for the eleven hundreth time, never to brag just to make other folks feel small, and never to claim somethin' which wasn't actual fact.

Well, I was certainly 'shamed of myself for forgettin' what Daddy had been teachin' Patrick and me since we got borned. I explained, real simple-like, what it was that I could see out of that back window, and asked Daddy if it was OK to tell folks about that little bit. He reckoned that it might be worth tellin'...so I'll pass it on to y'all.

While it's true that I never saw the biggest jackrabbit in Texas, which also had to be the biggest jackrabbit in the world, there is one thing you can believe.

When that hopper passed over our old truck, on his way to the Devils stewpot (I hope), his shadow fell across those scales we were haulin'...and IT weighed forty-two pounds!

Charlie Maxwell

[wills]

Wills--Ice fishing??? I was speaking of the hooks used to carry a block of ice.

Ray, I figured you meant hooks for people fishing for ice. Now if you’re referring to those thingamabobs people used to use to carry ice around

http://www.museum.state.il.us/RiverWeb/harvesting/archives/images/roll4/Icetongs_400.jpg

I would have called those ice tongs.

Perhaps it has to do with the fact you live on the Middle Concho, and only the North Concho gets cold enough that you can catch ice.

[waksupi]

Where did I leave my goldurned hip boots?....

[wills]

Where did I leave my goldurned hip boots?....

Been raining up there?

[carpetman]

Wills---I think ice tongs are those little jobber doo's you use to pluck an ice cube--one hand operation. I always heard the things you showed called ice hooks. Now a hook for fishing for ice,what would you use for bait?

[Txredraider]

Wills---I think ice tongs are those little jobber doo's you use to pluck an ice cube--one hand operation. I always heard the things you showed called ice hooks. Now a hook for fishing for ice,what would you use for bait?

Well, if you wanted to catch a big'un, you could use Hillary Clinton's heart. I'd advise heavy tackle for that particular bait.

[wills]

Wills---I think ice tongs are those little jobber doo's you use to pluck an ice cube--one hand operation. I always heard the things you showed called ice hooks. Now a hook for fishing for ice,what would you use for bait?

Ice worms
http://www.nichols.edu/departments/glacier/iceworm.htm

[carpetman]

Harry Eales---You started this mess---look how many posts. I hate to say it,but I think you were confused. It wasn't you can't cast bullets with buffalo dung,it was you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd. Close but no cigar---well I take that back there was one got into the thread.

[wills]

Harry Eales---You started this mess---look how many posts. I hate to say it,but I think you were confused. It wasn't you can't cast bullets with buffalo dung,it was you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd. Close but no cigar---well I take that back there was one got into the thread.

No,the cigar was in
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10720&highlight=turrent

There used to be a Harry Earls in San angelo though.

[waksupi]

The Ballad of the Ice-Worm Cocktail
by Robert W. Service


To Dawson Town came Percy Brown from London on the Thames.
A pane of glass was in his eye, and stockings on his sterns.
Upon the shoulder of his coat a leather pad he wore,
To rest his deadly rifle when it wasn't seeking gore;
The which it must have often been, for Major Percy Brown,
According to his story was a hunter of renown,
Who in the Murrumbidgee wilds had stalked the kangaroo
And killed the cassowary on the plains of Timbuctoo.
And now the Arctic fox he meant to follow to its lair,
And it was also his intent to beard the Artic hare...
Which facts concerning Major Brown I merely tell because
I fain would have you know him for the Nimrod that he was.

Now Skipper Grey and Deacon White were sitting in the shack,
And sampling of the whisky that pertained to Sheriff Black.
Said Skipper Grey: "I want to say a word about this Brown:
The piker's sticking out his chest as if he owned the town."
Said Sheriff Black: "he has no lack of frigorated cheek;
He called himself a Sourdough when he'd just been here a week."
Said Deacon White: "Methinks you're right, and so I have a plan
By which I hope to prove to-night the mettle of the man.
Just meet me where the hooch-bird sings, and though our ways be rude
We'll make a proper Sourdough of this Piccadilly dude."

Within the Malamute Saloon were gathered all the gang;
The fun was fast and furious, and the loud hooch-bird sang.
In fact the night's hilarity had almost reached its crown,
When into its storm-centre breezed the gallant Major Brown.
And at the apparation, whith its glass eye and plus-fours,
From fifty alcoholic throats responded fifty roars.
With shouts of stark amazement and with whoops of sheer delight,
They surged around the stranger, but the first was Deacon White.
"We welcome you," he cried aloud, "to this the Great White Land.
The Artic Brotherhood is proud to grip you by the hand.
Yea, sportsman of the bull-dog breed, from trails of far away,
To Yukoners this is indeed a memorable day.
Our jubilation to express, vocabularies fail...
Boys, hail the Great Cheechako!" And the boys responded: "Hail!"

"And now," continued Deacon White to blushing Major Brown,
"Behold assembled the eelight and cream of Dawson Town,
And one ambition fills their hearts and makes their bosoms glow -
They want to make you, honoured sir, a bony feed Sourdough.
The same, some say, is one who's seen the Yukon ice go out,
But most profound authorities the definition doubt,
And to the genial notion of this meeting, Major Brown,
A Sourdough is a guy who drinks ... an ice-worm cocktail down."

"By Gad!" responded Major Brown, "that's ripping, don't you know.
I've always felt I'd like to be a certified Sourdough.
And though I haven't any doubt your Winter's awf'ly nice,
Mayfair, I fear, may miss me ere the break-up of your ice.
Yet (pray excuse my ignorance of matters such as these)
A cocktail I can understand - but what's an ice-worm, please?"
Said Deacon White: "It is not strange that you should fail to know,
Since ice-worms are peculiar to the Mountain of Blue Snow.
Within the Polar rim it rears, a solitary peak,
And in the smoke of early Spring (a spectacle unique)
Like flame it leaps upon the sight and thrills you through and through,
For though its cone is piercing white, its base is blazing blue.
Yet all is clear as you draw near - for coyley peering out
Are hosts and hosts of tiny worms, each indigo of snout.
And as no nourishment they find, to keep themselves alive
They masticate each other's tails, till just the Tough survive.
Yet on this stern and Spartan fare so-rapidly they grow,
That some attain six inches by the melting of the snow.
Then when the tundra glows to green and ****** heads appear,
They burrow down and are not seen until another year."

"A toughish yarn," laughed Major Brown, "as well you may admit.
I'd like to see this little beast before I swallow it."
"'Tis easy done," said Deacon White, "Ho! Barman, haste and bring
Us forth some pickled ice-worms of the vintage of last Spring."
But sadly still was Barman Bill, then sighed as one bereft:
"There's been a run on cocktails, Boss; there ain't an ice-worm left.
Yet wait . . . By gosh! it seems to me that some of extra size
Were picked and put away to show the scientific guys."
Then deeply in a drawer he sought, and there he found a jar,
The which with due and proper pride he put upon the bar;
And in it, wreathed in queasy rings, or rolled into a ball,
A score of grey and greasy things, were drowned in alcohol.
Their bellies were a bilious blue, their eyes a bulbous red;
Their back were grey, and gross were they, and hideous of head.
And when with gusto and a fork the barman speared one out,
It must have gone four inches from its tail-tip to its snout.
Cried Deacon White with deep delight: "Say, isn't that a beaut?"
"I think it is," sniffed Major Brown, "a most disgustin' brute.
Its very sight gives me the pip. I'll bet my bally hat,
You're only spoofin' me, old chap. You'll never swallow that."
"The hell I won't!" said Deacon White. "Hey! Bill, that fellows fine.
Fix up four ice-worm cocktails, and just put that wop in mine."

[waksupi]

So Barman Bill got busy, and with sacerdotal air
His art's supreme achievement he proceeded to prepare.
His silver cups, like sickle moon, went waving to and fro,
And four celestial cocktails soon were shining in a row.
And in the starry depths of each, artistically piled,
A fat and juicy ice-worm raised its mottled mug and smiled.
Then closer pressed the peering crown, suspended was the fun,
As Skipper Grey in courteous way said: "Stranger, please take one."
But with a gesture of disgust the Major shook his head.
"You can't bluff me. You'll never drink that gastly thing," he said.
"You'll see all right," said Deacon White, and held his cocktail high,
Till its ice-worm seemed to wiggle, and to wink a wicked eye.
Then Skipper Grey and Sheriff Black each lifted up a glass,
While through the tense and quiet crown a tremor seemed to pass.
"Drink, Stranger, drink," boomed Deacon White. "proclaim you're of the best,
A doughty Sourdough who has passed the Ice-worm Cocktail Test."
And at these words, with all eyes fixed on gaping Major Brown,
Like a libation to the gods, each dashed his cocktail down.
The Major gasped with horror as the trio smacked their lips.
He twiddled at his eye-glass with unsteady finger-tips.
Into his starry cocktail with a look of woe he peered,
And its ice-worm, to his thinking, mosy incontinently leered.
Yet on him were a hundred eyes, though no one spoke aloud,
For hushed with expectation was the waiting, watching crowd.
The Major's fumbling hand went forth - the gang prepared to cheer;
The Major's falt'ring hand went back, the mob prepared to jeer,
The Major gripped his gleaming galss and laid it to his lips,
And as despairfully he took some nauseated sips,
From out its coil of crapulence the ice-worm raised its head,
Its muzzle was a murky blue, its eyes a ruby red.
And then a roughneck bellowed fourth: "This stiff comes here and struts,
As if he bought the blasted North - jest let him show his guts."
And with a roar the mob proclaimed: "Cheechako, Major Brown,
Reveal that you're of Sourdough stuff, and drink your cocktail down."

The Major took another look, then quickly closed his eyes,
For even as he raised his glass he felt his gorge arise.
Aye, even though his sight was sealed, in fancy he could see
That grey and greasy thing that reared and sneered in mockery.
Yet roung him ringed the callous crowd - and how they seemed to gloat!
It must be done . . . He swallowed hard . . . The brute was at his throat.
He choked. . . he gulped . . . Thank God! at last he'd got the horror down.
The from the crown went up a roar: "Hooray for Sourdough Brown!"
With shouts they raised him shoulder high, and gave a rousing cheer,
But though they praised him to the sky the Major did not hear.
Amid their demonstrative glee delight he seemed to lack;
Indeed it almost seemed that he - was "keeping something back."
A clammy sweat was on his brow, and pallid as a sheet:
"I feel I must be going now," he'd plaintively repeat.
Aye, though with drinks and smokes galore, they tempted him to stay,
With sudden bolt he gained the door, and made his get-away.

And ere next night his story was the talk of Dawson Town,
But gone and reft of glory was the wrathful Major Brown;
For that ice-worm (so they told him) of such formidable size
Was - a stick of stained spaghetti with two red ink spots for eyes.

[Harry Eales]

Harry Eales---You started this mess---look how many posts. I hate to say it,but I think you were confused. It wasn't you can't cast bullets with buffalo dung,it was you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd. Close but no cigar---well I take that back there was one got into the thread.

Hey Carpetman,

All I asked was if it was possible to melt lead using just Buffalo Chips. Not having them available in England, I couldn't experiment to find out myself.

I didn't realise it would turn into a discourse of how folks would preserve winter ice for their summer evening Martini drinks back in the 1800's, cattle breeding or the weather in various States of the Union. Lol.

However, it has been fun reading all the 'posts'

Harry

[ron brooks]

Y'all ever wonder why there ain't no rocks on the South Plains or the Pandhandle? The wind done blown them all away.

You have to be careful of chrono rounds out here too. If you shoot into or against the wind you have to add or subtract the WVF (Wind Velocity Factor) other wise your data is skewed and of no practical use.

Ron

[sundog]

Ron, yea, and published wind drift tables are of little use. They all seem to stop at about 30 mph... sundog

[carpetman]

I was driving along this morning and suddenly found myself in a big state of confusion. A few days ago I wouldn't have been confused but in view of recent education,I realized I was confused. Seems as though an animal had crossed in front of me and now,I don't know if it was a rabbit,a hare or a bunny---was pretty sure it wasn't a buffalo or would that be a bison? I did wonder if it was born helpless or able to take care of itself. I also wondered if it lived in a burrow or above ground.(I really didn't think a burrow as it didn't seem to be from New York). I didnt have a clue about any of these things as I have no hare raising experience. But unbeknownst to me at the time,that was all about to change. I decided being as how I had my shotgun,I'd go make dinner out of whatever it might be. So I got out of my pickup,got my shotgun and began my stalk. Got right out in the middle of a big field and I heard a noise. Looked around and here was a great big ol gentleman cow a taking a bead at me. What to do? I looked around and this being plains country,no trees,exceptin one. There stood a lone tihsllub tree. I didn't have time to climb it,that gentleman cow was getting closer and had a full head of steam. This tihsllub tree had one branch about 12 foot high. So I ran and jumped for it and ofcourse missed it. But I lucked out and caught it on the way back down. Here I was in the tree and the gentleman cow was a pawing and bellering and stomping the ground. Just as I thought I was comfortable,I looked around and there was a huge wildcat---in the same tree. What to do? I had already quit worrying about whether my quarry was a hare,rabbit or whatever. Didn't matter,he was long gone. To compound my complicated situation,I only had one hull for my shotgun. So I pondered things over a might in my head. Here I was up a tree with a wildcat,mad raging gentleman cow on the ground and I only had one hull. So I raised up and shot the wildcat right between the eyes. I figured I'd shoot the bull when I posted this.

[45nut]

:)): Good tale there! I would like to complement all parties in this thread for the information parlayed as well as the historical,,and yes hysterical tales .

[felix]

Great one, Ray! ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Seems as though an animal had crossed in front of me and now,I don't know if it was a rabbit,a hare or a bunny---was pretty sure it wasn't a buffalo or would that be a bison? I also wondered if it lived in a burrow or above ground.

Ray,

You lost me right here. Regardless if it was a buffalo or a bison, never in my life have I seen one burrow into the ground.

[felix]

Nah, John, you not lost, yet! NYC folks live underground by definition. They call their individual towns as such. ... felix

[Scrounger]

I was driving along this morning and suddenly found myself in a big state of confusion. A few days ago I wouldn't have been confused but in view of recent education,I realized I was confused. Seems as though an animal had crossed in front of me and now,I don't know if it was a rabbit,a hare or a bunny---was pretty sure it wasn't a buffalo or would that be a bison? I did wonder if it was born helpless or able to take care of itself. I also wondered if it lived in a burrow or above ground.(I really didn't think a burrow as it didn't seem to be from New York). I didnt have a clue about any of these things as I have no hare raising experience. But unbeknownst to me at the time,that was all about to change. I decided being as how I had my shotgun,I'd go make dinner out of whatever it might be. So I got out of my pickup,got my shotgun and began my stalk. Got right out in the middle of a big field and I heard a noise. Looked around and here was a great big ol gentleman cow a taking a bead at me. What to do? I looked around and this being plains country,no trees,exceptin one. There stood a lone tihsllub tree. I didn't have time to climb it,that gentleman cow was getting closer and had a full head of steam. This tihsllub tree had one branch about 12 foot high. So I ran and jumped for it and ofcourse missed it. But I lucked out and caught it on the way back down. Here I was in the tree and the gentleman cow was a pawing and bellering and stomping the ground. Just as I thought I was comfortable,I looked around and there was a huge wildcat---in the same tree. What to do? I had already quit worrying about whether my quarry was a hare,rabbit or whatever. Didn't matter,he was long gone. To compound my complicated situation,I only had one hull for my shotgun. So I pondered things over a might in my head. Here I was up a tree with a wildcat,mad raging gentleman cow on the ground and I only had one hull. So I raised up and shot the wildcat right between the eyes. I figured I'd shoot the bull when I posted this.


Where was your sheep during all this?

[montana_charlie]

Regardless if it was a buffalo or a bison, never in my life have I seen one burrow into the ground.
I have seen depressions in the ground (out here) which are said to be the remains of old buffalo wallows. Some are deep enough that a bull standing in the bottom might not be visible from a hundreds yards away.
Some years ago, while helping a rancher move his bulls to their winter pasture, I rode a horse into one of those holes when it was drifted full of snow.
Both of us had trouble extracting ourselves from 'the pit'.
CM

[carpetman]

Bass Ackwards---You dont know if it was buffalo or bison. That confirms that their burrowing works. People dont know anything about them. Burrowing is for concealment---you are not suppossed to see them. This burrowing evolved slowly. It started out that they just dug holes to bury their dung. They did this so that bullet casters wouldnt have any fuel to cast bullets. This worked well. But the plains which had been void of grass and trees was now being fertilized and vegetation started growing. This made folks in Montana happy as they could now have sheep. The buffalo hunters were now getting a supply of sawdust that they could use for fuel. The sawdust was used to insulate the ice that was brought in. They could no longer just bury their dung and be safe. They had to bury(burrows)themselves. The wallow that Montana Charlie was an upstairs balcony for their burrow. Now you may not accept this as you haven't seen it. Next time you describe whatever happens inside a gun barrel remember I haven't been in a gun barrel to see it.

[felix]

Some of us are just flat out clowns, and have ridges and a rump to prove it. ... felix

[wills]

Hey Carpetman,

All I asked was if it was possible to melt lead using just Buffalo Chips. Not having them available in England, I couldn't experiment to find out myself.

I didn't realise it would turn into a discourse of how folks would preserve winter ice for their summer evening Martini drinks back in the 1800's, cattle breeding or the weather in various States of the Union. Lol.

However, it has been fun reading all the 'posts'

Harry

Perhaps you could simulate the chips using the products of Bos taurus which may be available at your locale.

[montana_charlie]

Carpetman,
Are you sure you don't have the buffalo confused with the prairie dog?
I'm guessing you haven't seen either one, so maybe...Naw! that can't be it.
CM

[flinchnjerk]

I don't think that you guys should be taking ice fishing so lightly...it can be very dangerous. I had a couple of buddies who went ice fishing. They caught about 900 pounds. When they brought it home and fried it up, they both drowned.

[Harry Eales]

Perhaps you could simulate the chips using the products of Bos taurus which may be available at your locale.

Hello Wills,

Chips of British domestic cattle are legion, however you forget the traditional British weather. It is seldom indeed when their 'Pats' or 'Chips' ever dry out. Most of them get washed away by the rain.

Admittedly 2006 was exceptionally hot, and it may have been possible to find a few, but there are a mass of insects from flies to beetles that use this dung to breed in, and then birds come along and break up the 'chips' to get at the larvae.

If I tried to collect it, it wouldn't be long before the gentlemen in white coats would come along to insist I try on one of their special jackets, those with the long ties on the sleeves and the fastenings on the back. lol.

Harry

[jb12k]

Wills---I think ice tongs are those little jobber doo's you use to pluck an ice cube--one hand operation. I always heard the things you showed called ice hooks. Now a hook for fishing for ice,what would you use for bait?

BOURBON !!

[montana_charlie]

I don't think that you guys should be taking ice fishing so lightly...it can be very dangerous.
Doubly dangerous if you consider the possibility of becoming a victim of the dreaded ice snake.

I adopted a method of ice fishing which prevents that kind of attack, but frankly...I'm too tired to fish after chopping a hole in the ice big enough for my boat...
CM

[rugerman1]

Doubly dangerous if you consider the possibility of becoming a victim of the dreaded ice snake.

I adopted a method of ice fishing which prevents that kind of attack, but frankly...I'm too tired to fish after chopping a hole in the ice big enough for my boat...
CM

:mrgreen: [smilie=l: :groner:

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

I do believe the "chip throwers" hev took over the chip thread!!!!!!!!! Keep it coming guys , makes me feel normal?!!!!!!!!!!
nick

[OLPDon]

To all you contemplating Buffalo Chips I have a safty precaution please click on Link:
www.workingnet.com/thunderbear/243.html
Have a nice Day!!!!!!!!!
Don.....................

[wills]

Hello Wills,

Chips of British domestic cattle are legion, however you forget the traditional British weather. It is seldom indeed when their 'Pats' or 'Chips' ever dry out. Most of them get washed away by the rain.

Admittedly 2006 was exceptionally hot, and it may have been possible to find a few, but there are a mass of insects from flies to beetles that use this dung to breed in, and then birds come along and break up the 'chips' to get at the larvae.

If I tried to collect it, it wouldn't be long before the gentlemen in white coats would come along to insist I try on one of their special jackets, those with the long ties on the sleeves and the fastenings on the back. lol.

Harry
Ah, yes, rain, I have read about rain. I aspire to actually witness rain someday!

[montana_charlie]

To all you contemplating Buffalo Chips I have a safty precaution...
A timely tidbit, that.
Obviously, instead of Westinghouse, one should turn to Ron Popiel for the necessary equipment. I am sure he makes a slicer which would work well to produce those evenly matched wafers that do best in his multi-level dehydrator.

The only remaining question is what to do with the 'wiggly things'. I recommend they be carefully collected and kept (in a small tub of sawdust) in the refrigerator, for use as bait during your next ice fishing trip. Experienced ice fishermen know where to store them, while actively fishing, to keep them from freezing...even though that means foregoing the pleasures of tobacco products such as Copenhagen and Skoal.

One should keep in mind, however, that method of storage makes one more susceptible to a visit from the ice snake.
CM

[Ross]

Do not pine for the lack of buffalo chips. They are readily available sterilized, compressed and dehydrated as Presto Logs. One simply chops off hockey-puck chips from the end of the log sausage.
Available in supermarkets everywhere.

[joseywales76]

LMAO,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,funny, i think i would pay money to see that,

[joseywales76]

Been there, done that. Not a problem to do the job. One of our club contests was to shoot into a block of wood, split the wood open, recover the bullet, start a fire with flint and steel, and when the bullet was remolded, fire at another chunk of wood. First one done, wins. I believe the winning time was around 23-25 minutes. And, it is hilarious watching someone trying to pick up and load a hot ball!

lmao,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Just Duke]

Cool!

[madcaster]

This is a great thread,more for us smokepole guys maybe,but STILL relavent to all of us.It CAN be done,sometimes it may be best in the year after hunting season and in the Spring.:coffee:

[Just Duke]

This is a great thread,more for us smokepole guys maybe,but STILL relavent to all of us.It CAN be done,sometimes it may be best in the year after hunting season and in the Spring.:coffee:
Oh yea!
I think it should be in the BP section though. :-D

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I have a book written by one of the most successful buffalo runners and points out on page 56 that he used bullets made to his specs.1 part tin to 16 lead.He said factory ammo cost 25 cents and they could reload for half that. He never mentions anyone casting while hunting.Some people must have done their own casting however or there wouldn't be bullet molds around.I saw one on the antique road show that the appraiser valued at 44,ooo bucks.I think it was a 4 cavity.He said it was worth more than the Sharpes rifle the man had with him. Personally I think thats a croc. The book is called the The Buffalo Runners by Frank H. Mayer .It is a good read if you can find a copy. He writes in his book that he paid $ 237.60 for his Sharpes rifle and after the buff were gone you could buy them in Denver gun shops fo $25.00. He started hunting buffalo in 1872 and stayed at it untill the end.He also states that there really wasn't a lot of money in it. He was told by many that he was the most successful of them all.He said if I was I think the others must have been pretty poor. As I recall he died in 1950 at the age of 105.

[PatMarlin]

Gopher Slayer please check you PM's.

[Bullshop]

Some of the ledgers kept by the merchants show hunters comming in and buying pig lead. I dont think they were hammering on them buflers with them pigs.
That reminds me I have a few copies of the encyclopedia of buffaol hunters by my good friend Leo Remiger and his friend Miles Gilbert. I think I will soon be putting them on the swapping and selling forum.
BIC/BS

[wills]

I have a book written by one of the most successful buffalo runners and points out on page 56 that he used bullets made to his specs.1 part tin to 16 lead.He said factory ammo cost 25 cents and they could reload for half that. He never mentions anyone casting while hunting.Some people must have done their own casting however or there wouldn't be bullet molds around.I saw one on the antique road show that the appraiser valued at 44,ooo bucks.I think it was a 4 cavity.He said it was worth more than the Sharpes rifle the man had with him. Personally I think thats a croc. The book is called the The Buffalo Runners by Frank H. Mayer .It is a good read if you can find a copy. He writes in his book that he paid $ 237.60 for his Sharpes rifle and after the buff were gone you could buy them in Denver gun shops fo $25.00. He started hunting buffalo in 1872 and stayed at it untill the end.He also states that there really wasn't a lot of money in it. He was told by many that he was the most successful of them all.He said if I was I think the others must have been pretty poor. As I recall he died in 1950 at the age of 105.

some of it is online
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

Looks like I already said that.

However he wrote
"These Sharps used paper-patched bullets, made to my specifications, one part tin to sixteen parts lead; none of this hard-nose, steel-covered foolishness you have today. The sixteen-to-one formula gave us just enough hardness to penetrate and enough lead softness to mushroom. We didn't have much paper on the buffalo ranges, so we had to find a substitute for our patches. I used antelope buckskin, pulled and stretched real thin. It worked fine. I loaded my own cartridges, not because I liked to, because loading was a tedious job after a day in the hot sun on the range: I did it because it was cheaper. Factory ammunition cost 25 cents a round, but we could hand-load for half that, so we handloaded."

[waksupi]

The thread still lives!

I question the statement, that a round of ammunition cost 25 cents at that time.

[georgeky]

I have read every reply to this thread tonight and have to say, without a doubt, this is one of the very best piles of buffler dung I have ever read on the net.

Absolutely great!

[Bullshop]

Waksupi
That may depend on who, when, and where you buy from.
If you are standing 300 yards from a large heard and have everything accept ammo and I am selling ammo in close proxcimity to your hunt location, maybe!
Think about this, we pay about twice as much to buy small items in Delta Junction as we do in Fairbanks. Fairbanks is 130 miles away. When the price differance is brought to the merchants attention thier responce is usualy "go to Fairbanks". With the price of gas now driving my PU a round trip to fairbanks is about $100.00 in gas. Wut ya gona do?!?
I guess knowing the enterprising spirit of even early merchants the same situation was present on the prairy. Ya think? At least some of the newby's would buy until they learned better.
BTW we went to Fairbanks yesterday for supplies. Total spent was $2500.00. We have learned when you make the trip make the most of it.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[waksupi]

Bullshop, maybeso. I do know, those folks who think gold is a good investment, and the SHTF, if I have a loaf of bread, and they are hungry, the bread will cost an ounce of gold!

[wills]

The thread still lives!

I question the statement, that a round of ammunition cost 25 cents at that time.

Well he died in 1954, so we missed our chance to cross examine him on that. But here is something else.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ouhYP06JObQC&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=Frank+H.+Mayer&source=web&ots=NY5M0CMoFc&sig=05etcyfMbI9zNgLEeVfNpea9dZo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA261,M1

[wills]

Bullshop, maybeso. I do know, those folks who think gold is a good investment, and the SHTF, if I have a loaf of bread, and they are hungry, the bread will cost an ounce of gold!

Known in economics as the diamond - water paradox.

[jhalcott]

I believe those guys went out as a small company, taking every thing they needed. I read that they had a small forge in their wagons. A "sail" tuned by a handle would supply forced air to the fire. This was a neccessity for reshoeing the horses.

[yondering]

I'm surprised I don't see more comments here about making fires from cow chips. Having grown up on tales of the old west, I've made a few campfires from cow chips. As long as you are careful to select the dry ones, it works fine. No exceptional odor, it just smells like burning grass. We cooked hot dogs and hamburgers over it, and they were just as good as from any other campfire I've had. The cow chip fires definitely got hot enough to melt lead. No question at all in my mind that it was possible.
It does burn differently than wood. I've found it similar to the dried out newspaper pulp that remains after testing bullets in wet newspaper in the summertime. Tends to burn a little smoky until you get it going well.

[waksupi]

I believe those guys went out as a small company, taking every thing they needed. I read that they had a small forge in their wagons. A "sail" tuned by a handle would supply forced air to the fire. This was a neccessity for reshoeing the horses.

Hold on that one. I was a farrier for quite a few years, until my intelligence increased enough to stop. Even back then, "keg" shoes were available, that were cold fit, with no need for a forge. Some sort of small anvil and a good 4# hammer would be about all you needed, and you could get by with even less than that, assuming a couple rocks were available. I've did that several times back in the Bob Marshall. Pounded the nails with rocks too, along with doing the clenches. Kinda reminds a guy to take the proper tools next time.
It always amuses me to see on tv, a blacksmith bending on a shoe, and then quenching it, before studying it. What da heck is he looking at? And why did he quench it? I never quenched a shoe I can remember. Do the forge work, and throw the first one on the ground, and go on to the next one. Let them cool, and be as soft as they will be. Quenching them hardens them, and gives less grip on stone.
The only ones that needed forging were from bar stock for horses like saddlebreds, and those that would need a Memphis bar, skid plate, or something else out of the ordinary.

[MtGun44]

If I ever learned anything from TV, it was that anything you learned
from TV is total BS. Waksupi's comment once again verifies the
lesson, in an area where I have zero expertise from personal
experience. I am a pretty decent horse rider, but never had to work
on one. :-D

If you learned to shoot from TV, you learned to drop an Indian on a
fast horse at 300 yds with a 4 5/8" 45 Peacemaker takes a quick
fanned hipshot. You learned to always keep your finger on the
trigger of a gun. You learned to keep the hammer down on a 1911
and cock it with your thumb just before you need to shoot. You
learned that 6 guys in a small bar with M16s and thompsons on
full auto can shoot about 5-6 mags at each other and nobody will
get hit. You learned a 2" pine table will stop a .44-40 and .45 Colt.
You learned to hold a Glock sideways for best accuracy and control.

Lotsa good stuff there. [smilie=1:

Bill

[PatMarlin]

LOL... :mrgreen:

[Bret4207]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundog

Same way a lot of folks, Amish anyways, still do it up here. Hit the lake in January/February, saw the blocks, sink them in the ice house. Simple, hard work. Gotta love it.

[Bret4207]

We moved to Montana back in '76, and over the years have learned much about existence in a cold climate. One of those things is that...once our ground freezes, it never thaws out until around late April.

It was about 15 years ago that we started keeping cattle. Our closest neighbor (Paul) is a native, and was raised on the place he now runs. And, it is from his herd of fancy-quality Polled Herefords that we buy our cows.
When we bought our first set of heifers from him he had his doubts that this 'Air Force retiree', this 'guy from town', this 'transplanted Texan' could keep them alive long enough to make a calf crop the following summer...especially with a Montana winter to get through, first.
I was gambling that the 10 years of experience I had picked up from working (off and on - a few days at a time) at a large ranch to the east would be enough to get me going.

One day during our fourth or fifth year in cattle, Paul and I were out in the field, just chatting. The weather had just recently warmed up from a viciously cold spell. The chinook had been blowing hard for a few days, so all the snow was gone, and the temperature was up near 30, so (in the sunshine and all) it was pretty pleasant.

Paul was looking at my biggest Angus bull when he asked if I had bulls fertility checked every spring. I was surprised by the question, as I had never felt the need for that test. When I said so, and asked why he mentioned it, he said, "Well, I notice that you don't keep straw spread in the field for him, and he's laying out there now on frozen ground. If his nuts are froze, he won't make many calves next summer..."

As it happened, the animal had free access to a barn...which was kept bedded...and was laying outside because he wanted to, not because he had nowhere else to lay. But, I had never considered the fact that Paul had so subtly just taught me during that conversation.

I have learned that when Paul asks a question that seems to come from left field, I should never blow it off as 'just conversation'. Most usually he has an important tip for me...and he's too much of a gentleman to just come out and tell me where I'm going wrong. On the other hand, if he sees me following a program he is not familiar with, he's willing to learn a new trick...even if it comes from someone less experienced than himself.

Good neighbors are a treasure in any environment, but doubly valuable in a place where the weather can kill you (and your animals) if you are bothered by forgetfulness...or ignorance.
CM

Huh. Our cattle spend the whole winter outside and it gets down to -30 on a regular basis here. Never had a bull, stud, ram, buck or dog suffer from frozen....parts.

[Bret4207]

Hold on that one. I was a farrier for quite a few years, until my intelligence increased enough to stop. Even back then, "keg" shoes were available, that were cold fit, with no need for a forge. Some sort of small anvil and a good 4# hammer would be about all you needed, and you could get by with even less than that, assuming a couple rocks were available. I've did that several times back in the Bob Marshall. Pounded the nails with rocks too, along with doing the clenches. Kinda reminds a guy to take the proper tools next time.
It always amuses me to see on tv, a blacksmith bending on a shoe, and then quenching it, before studying it. What da heck is he looking at? And why did he quench it? I never quenched a shoe I can remember. Do the forge work, and throw the first one on the ground, and go on to the next one. Let them cool, and be as soft as they will be. Quenching them hardens them, and gives less grip on stone.
The only ones that needed forging were from bar stock for horses like saddlebreds, and those that would need a Memphis bar, skid plate, or something else out of the ordinary.

Ric- Gotta question on horses footies. What in your opinion is the best cure for split hooves? My Percherons tend to all run vertical splits, not big wide ones, but enough to shove a fingernail in. Tried the burn at the top, cut wit a file at the top, etc. I figure it's a nutritional thing. They run bare foot year round on ground from mud to ledge rock.

I guess our threads do wander a bit, eh?

[waksupi]

I can sure remember cattle with part of thier ears froze off. Shoulda wore thier muffs.

[missionary5155]

This may already have been mentioned... But Buff hunters had access to WOOD. Down in the creek bottoms there STILL grows TREES. All ya need to do is gather up some dead fall, place it in your wagon and cast as needed. Buff hunters opperated out of personal camps that followed the GREAT herds. Buff hunters may sit on the same spot for a week or two. When moving they KNEW what they needed and planned their routes accordinly. The molds never got cold. It sits on the edge of the fire and does NOT get cold. Ever wonder why the old molds were all metal ??? No wood handles to catch fire.
Does anyone read history ??? I am in Peru and have 5 old reprints about the Buff hunters... Use the library !

[montana_charlie]

Buff hunters had access to WOOD. Down in the creek bottoms there STILL grows TREES.
Buff hunters opperated out of personal camps that followed the GREAT herds.
And...even if the hunting party was so ignorant that they didn't know where the cricks were...they only had to follow the (thirsty) herd.
CM

[xoxoTA]

This is a great thread.
I wonder if silver can be melted and cast over a campfire ? Did the southwestern Indian silver smiths do it that way ? Copper I suppose would be possible, too ?

[Fixxah]

This does not answer the question but is interesting.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm


What a great read. Thanks for posting.

[NSP64]

Use the library !

I did a search on line at home, didn't find much. took your advice and went to the library. searched on line with their computers, still didn't find much.:kidding:

[rhead]

Copper and silver can be melted with charcoal and forced air although they are becomong reactive at those temps and need to be protected from the air. A wood fire would be very marginal. I have never tried it but have found evidence that both became liquid in house fires.

Silver 960.6 deg C 1761 deg F
Copper 1083 deg C 1981.4 deg F

Obtaianable but not practiclal
Jewelers and smiths started doing it to end the stone age without advanced technology.

[357tex]

Boys
I enjoyed the thread.Cow chips do burn good.Never cast any boolits over it but think you could.:-D

[runnin lead]

Chips don't burn on the other side of the pond because they are soggy wet with malt vineger

[PatMarlin]

Yuk Yuk

[natty bumpo]

>In short, I genuinely believe that the casting of bullets around the campfire, using buffalo chips for fuel, is just another myth of the Old West.

Wrong. See http://www.castbullet.com/hunting/bhunt.htm

I used mostly pine cones, but buffalo chips would probably give more heat. It was actually easy to do on a small fire.

I'm with you JR. Smelting lead over a fire , just about any kind of fire, would be a piece of cake in my opinion. With some well seasoned oak it will be quite easy and I have every intention of doing just that as soon as I can make it back up to the cabin. Within the week.

[Guesser]

Wow!!!! Raising the dead........from 2008; even!!

[44man]

Yes, it was true. But molds were a *****. HOT handles.

[Larry Gibson]

Even before the buff hunters Lewis and Clark had the black powder they took with them in lead "kegs" carefully calculated to cast the amount of ball needed for the powder contained there in. They also had arsenal supplied moulds for the arsenal supplied pre Model 1803 rifles. They cast the ball needed along the way. Many accounts of mountain men and buff hunters doing the same. I once cast, at a rendezvous in Bend, Oregon some 45 cal ball for my rifle in a Lyman cast iron pot on hot coal fire made with oak. Worked fine.

Larry Gibson

[blackthorn]

Wow!!!! Raising the dead........from 2008; even!!

Yes but it shows people are reading the old posts and that is a good thing.

[GhostHawk]

I have to admit I had not seen this one.

I also have to say that I have melted lead hot enough to cast boolits with a variety of woods, scrub, shrubs.

To use just chips you might need a bit of breeze or a bellows/blow tube.

Put the lead on to melt when you start eating supper. Time your done you can start pouring.

I used to prefer to smelt down wheel weights outside. For one my trailer was small, LP gas was not cheap, and firewood was everywhere plentiful and free for the picking up. Second it left the oil stick outside. Third I did not have to worry where the hot clips landed. If they landed in the fire so be it. They got cleaned up along with the ashes before the next one.

Don't need oak neither. Pine, cedar, hell poplar will do it if you have a good bed of coals.
That is the only thing reallly needed. A good bed of coals and a little patience. A nice cold beer does not hurt anything either.

[Three Steps]

This may already have been mentioned... But Buff hunters had access to WOOD. Down in the creek bottoms there STILL grows TREES. All ya need to do is gather up some dead fall, place it in your wagon and cast as needed. Buff hunters opperated out of personal camps that followed the GREAT herds. Buff hunters may sit on the same spot for a week or two. When moving they KNEW what they needed and planned their routes accordinly. The molds never got cold. It sits on the edge of the fire and does NOT get cold. Ever wonder why the old molds were all metal ??? No wood handles to catch fire.
Does anyone read history ??? I am in Peru and have 5 old reprints about the Buff hunters... Use the library !

I'm just reading this post 10 years late but you are right about the trees. I live 60 miles west of Amarillo right in the heart of the southern hunts. I have metal detected a buffalo hunter's camp that is a half mile from my house right by a small canyon with a spring. The canyon is full of cotton wood, walnut, willow, and other trees. I don't know how thick they were in the 1870's but the journals mention them. Mesquite bushes and trees are all over the flats. North of here it gets pretty flat with fewer canyons and springs but they are scattered throughout the Panhandle. The second largest canyon in the U.S. is just south of Amarillo. Anyway the artifacts included (8) 45 caliber paper patched fired slugs, several pistol bullets, 80 some Berdan primers (with a sewing needle that was used to clean flash holes?), 3/4 pound of spilled lead near the primers with indentions of wood where it was spilled in the fire on the larger pieces, and small square nails from packing crates. I have cast many a round ball on camp fires and now I will need to cast some Sharps bullets over cow chips for fun. It was 28 degrees today with 40 mile per hour wind. Will put that project off until green up.

[M-Tecs]

The larger hunting parties had a blacksmith wagon in addition to the cook wagons. Both wagons had coal bins on them if needed.

[quack1]

I recently read on another site that the original poster, Harry Eales, passed away late last year. His thread outlived him.

[indian joe]

just stumbled onto this topic - I started messing with lead boolits 50 years ago and cast several thousand 32/20 pills using one of those tiny metho burners - a large bean can for a lead pot and a ladle I made from a ketchup bottle lid - that metho burner was as good as most small gas rings - it all worked so long as i stayed out of the wind.

[GhostHawk]

I grew up in the Red River Valley of Northern Minnesota and North Dakota.

At the time the pioneers moved into this country there were NO trees except once in 30 - 40 sections of land you'd see a single big cottonwood tree.

Except in the river, stream and broken bottoms. Those were all full of trees. And still are today.

Oak, ash, elm 2 to 3 feet across 20 feet in the air. I mean MASSIVE trees. 40 acre patches of Wild Plum and chokecherry. Hackberry trees, here and there a little cluster of aspen or poplar where seeds washed down from the hills.

Like many other resources wood was not always scarce, just had to be planned for in advance.
When you found a good supply you'd fill the wagons against the days when you don't.

You people think that those hunters did not eat? If you can boil a pot of soup you can melt lead.
Just a question of time and patience.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The simple fact that these guys ere shooting hundreds of Buffs in one day made it so they had to reload and in order to reload they had to make boolits too.

I can't believe people haven't thrown a Glass bottle in a campfire? The melt easily and are fun to watch turn into a glob of glass. Glass requires much more heat than lead does.

Randy

[toallmy]

I enjoyed reading this post very much .