Will my Marlin shoot cast boolits well ?

[tracker]

I am new to Cast Boolits. This looks like a nice place to hang my hat and make new friends. My question is this. I have a Marlin 336c in 30-30. I really like this rifle but I want to load cast bullets. I have read that Micro grove rifling is OK but needs to have a hard cast bullet and oversized a bit. Any insight would be helpful.


Tracker

[Poygan]

Tracker,

Give this a try: www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm. Useful info on loads for microgrooves.

[Buckshot]

.............Micro-Groove has proven to be very accurate with jacketed slugs and problematic with cast. Of course you have exceptions and one is the very fine performance of the MG design and the 22RF. Also, the author Paul Matthews has gotten extremely fine accuracy with a M95 in 45-70 and almost dead soft cast boolits. A board member (Jumptrap) has also gotten superb accuracy with the same.

Other then a Marlin 22RF bolt action I owned long ago, I've never had any personal experience with MG. However I 've read several articles dealing with the theory behind it (tube artillery and Naval cannon use a similar pattern) and also about those who have tried to get good cast bullet accuracy from it. Finally I have had a couple friends with Marlin 1894's. One in 41 Mag and the other in 44 mag. Both have said they'd never again in their whole life try cast boolits.

I also have a couple articles from a couple different magazines and I think 2 by the late Frank DeHass dealing specificly with cast in the MG Marlin barrels.To put a point to it, as I recall they call for very hardcast slugs and moderate velocities. You can't help but wonder why the soft 22RF slugs work and ditto very soft slugs in the 45-70 verisons do so well?

It would seem that something is going on though, as all the recent cowboy incarnations Marlin has come out with have had the Ballard type rifling. These are aimed at the cast lead crowd.

If I had a MG Marlin and I wanted to try cast in it I would first slug the throat to find out how big I could go in boolit diamater. I would then cast the slugs and either water drop them or oven heat treat (the later if any sizing were required). Since a hard fat slugs seems to have the concensous on how to do it.

..................Buckshot

[Maven]

Tracker, I don't accept the conventional wisdom of very hard, oversized CB's in Microgroove rifling at all. I have 3 such rifles, a .22RF, a .30-30 (with a rough patch ahead of the chamber yet!) and a .45-70. The .22 will shoot 5 into a dime @ 50 yds. all day with soft Pb bullets. The other two will easily shoot into 1" @ 50yds. with gas-checked (.30-30) and plain-based CBs (.45-70). Several months ago, a friend's bro. and I were shooting .45-70's, but his had Ballard rifling: There was NO difference in performance or leading. (There was none.) What you need to do is determine bore/throat diameter and then size your CB's .001" or .002" over that diameter. You also have to match your alloy to the pressure generated by your load so that you don't foul the bore with lead. E.g., I use WW + 1% Sn (air cooled, not heat-treated) for all my rifles + a good lube (Felix Lube, Lyman Super Moly, etc.) and get no leading at up to 1,900fps in all but the .45-70. In it, recoil with a 400gr. - 470gr. CB (plain based) is the limiting factor so I hold the vel. to ~1,300fps. In sum, use a good lube, match your alloy strength to load pressure (i.e., you don't need extra hard CB's) and try CB's .001" -.003" over groove dia. for accurate, lead-free performance. Btw, this is exactly what I do for non-Microgroove bbls.

[tracker]

I want to think you guys for the information. I don't have any casting equipment now but am getting ready to make my move and get into it. I have a few dollars coming in that I can use for a new rifle. I won’t get rid of the Marlin as it is so accurate with jacketed bullets. I am looking at the EMF Hartford 1892 Lever Action Rifle, Casehardened Frame, 24" Octagonal Blued Barrel, .44MAG rifle. I think I would have a much better time casting for this then my Marlin 30-30.

I want to use this rifle for hunting the thickly wooded areas for Deer and as a plunker with 44 Special loads. Any good ideas to start on a good out outfit for casting ? I was think about the Lee outfit sold on Midway and Lyman molds. I have 600.00 $ to play with for the rifle and casting outfit. The rifle is 462.00 $ dollars. That leaves me only 138.00 $ dollars for equipment. Maybe not enough, but at least a start.

Tracker

[sundog]

Maven, Im with you. I have a 35 Rem, MG, 336CS, and it does just fine with the RCBS 200 grainer thru a .360 die (essentially as cast), checked and Felix lubed. Can shoot'em all day long, accurate, and no loeading.

Tracker, be sure to check the load data on castpics, as there is some good stuff there, all put together by fellers on this board. sundog

http://www.castpics.net/RandD/load_data/load_data.htm

[Jumptrap]

As my illustrious friend Buckshot and his pal The Duke has mentioned, I have had great success with dead soft/pure lead bullets in my Marlin 45-70. HOWEVER, my Marlin has Ballard rifling. I chose pure lead for hunting purposes. I had my doubts before starting but the large diameter bore allows you to get by with things a smaller .30-.35 bore won't. Gotta love that 45-70!

I have a MG 30-30 and I'm not so impressed with cast accuracy YET. It appears more reluctant to perform than standard Ballard rifling does......but your mileage may vary......as brother Maven has found very happy results with his.

As for artillary barrels....I'll never forget looking down the bore of a 90 mm gun once.....full of fine grooves. I suspect this is because the iron projectiles use a soft bronze or brass driving band that is groove diameter to spin the projectile...as the iron proj. rides the bore only. It theoretically would be easier to force the band into finel grooves than into 8 or 10 wide ones.


.............Micro-Groove has proven to be very accurate with jacketed slugs and problematic with cast. Of course you have exceptions and one is the very fine performance of the MG design and the 22RF. Also, the author Paul Matthews has gotten extremely fine accuracy with a M95 in 45-70 and almost dead soft cast boolits. A board member (Jumptrap) has also gotten superb accuracy with the same.

Other then a Marlin 22RF bolt action I owned long ago, I've never had any personal experience with MG. However I 've read several articles dealing with the theory behind it (tube artillery and Naval cannon use a similar pattern) and also about those who have tried to get good cast bullet accuracy from it. Finally I have had a couple friends with Marlin 1894's. One in 41 Mag and the other in 44 mag. Both have said they'd never again in their whole life try cast boolits.

I also have a couple articles from a couple different magazines and I think 2 by the late Frank DeHass dealing specificly with cast in the MG Marlin barrels.To put a point to it, as I recall they call for very hardcast slugs and moderate velocities. You can't help but wonder why the soft 22RF slugs work and ditto very soft slugs in the 45-70 verisons do so well?

It would seem that something is going on though, as all the recent cowboy incarnations Marlin has come out with have had the Ballard type rifling. These are aimed at the cast lead crowd.

If I had a MG Marlin and I wanted to try cast in it I would first slug the throat to find out how big I could go in boolit diamater. I would then cast the slugs and either water drop them or oven heat treat (the later if any sizing were required). Since a hard fat slugs seems to have the concensous on how to do it.

..................Buckshot

[tracker]

Hi Marvin
I didn't see you post tell after I posted. I am lost. I have been reloading for over 30 years but never cast. It is a whole new world for me on this. I don't know some of the terminologies you are talking about. I have never slugged a barrel but I am sure I could. I don’t follow you about “You also have to match your alloy to the pressure generated by your load.” What is a good book to get so that I can learn all the basics ? I was thinking about the Lyman book I saw at the sporting goods section at our Mart store. Maybe I could just learn by asking question on this board , but a good reference book would be nice also.

Tracker

[JDL]

I got a 1977 Marlin 336A last year and wanted to try cast boolits in it to test the micro-groove discussion. First, I cleaned the barrel of any jacket fouling and made a slug of the throat and barrel, to check their dimentions. I found the bore was slightly smaller than my other .30 calibers, running about .3075", and the throat, what little there was, measured .309".
I found, right off, a couple of loads that went approximately 2" at 100 yards, with velocity 1800-1900 fps, using air-cooled wheelweights. One was with RCBS 30-180 FN, which drops from the mold .309", and I run through a lubrisizer die of .311" to apply gas check and lube. The load that appears to have the most accuracy potential utilizes Lyman 311466 sized to .3083", which is the one I used for the "Aloha" match seen in the Competitions section. I have some more of those loaded for a more comprehensive test. So, to sum it up, I personally haven't had any trouble with a micro-groove barrel and cast.-JDL

[9.3X62AL]

Tracker--

My Microgroove experience is limited, but positive. I have a Marlin Model 62 "Levermatic" in 30 U.S. Carbine with the MG pattern. It is throated at .3095", and I size Lee Soup Cans (30 caliber 113 grain flat nose gas check) to .310" and the little rifle shoots better with these than with jacketed bullets. My alloy is middle-hardness, 92/6/2 lead/antimony/tin (Taracorp alloy). No magic to it, just half/half pure lead/linotype. Note that I de-coppered the bore before trying cast boolits in the rifle, and it was fouled with that red stuff that turns green pretty extensively.

Little sister is no slouch as a revolver shot, and her Davis-modified PPC revolver (S&W K-frame M&P) has a heavy-profile barrel with Microgroove-pattern bore. It will stay inside the X-ring of a B-27 silhouette target at 50 yards all day long, using swaged wadcutters.

My thoughts are that MG will do well with cast boolits, but different and probably more critical conditions are required to obtain accuracy--closer adherence to dimesional integrity and pressure/alloy restrictions, perhaps some velocity restrictions as well.

Pressure/alloy relationships--Brinell Hardness (BHn) reading of your boolit metal X 1,422 PSI is the formula, and this result is deemed the maximum pressure that the boolit's alloy can generally withstand. While neither the formula or the real-time results are hard and fast, it's a good guideline to follow.

Pure lead--BHn = 5

Wheelweights--BHn = 9

Taracorp alloy--BHn = 15

Linotype--BHn = 22

My opinion--dimensional integrity between boolit and throat is the single most important factor in the variables equation, followed by alloy composition, then lube integrity. This applies until the velocity reaches about 1800 FPS, at which time all three factors equalize. I keep my shooting life less complicated by seldom exceeding 1600 FPS with my cast rifle loads. If a caliber has more potential for energy downrange at that point--I raise boolit weight rather than velocity to exploit that performance gap.

[tracker]

Well, I really appreciate all the information. I just ordered the Lyman Cast Handload book Third edition form the link below. What the author says is the way I feel right now. " I began to think that the people who cast bullets are members of a secret society or guild, passing technical information from one generation to the next, or possibly a life time members of The Cast Bullet Association."

http://www.realguns.com/books/review37.htm



When some of you respond to my questions I feel like I am walking into the New York Stock Exchange floor and trying to buy stocks. NOT! I need to get some basics down first.

Thanks for all the information though. This is a great place to learn from.

Tracker

[Maven]

tracker, The Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" is an excellent place to start. It even explains how to slug a bore/bbl. and what diameter to size CB's to pending those results. The rest of the esoterica has been gleaned from experience, forums such as this one and from the Cast Bullet Assoc. (some of us) via its journal, "Fouling Shot." As for reloading CB's, understand that x no. of grains of a propellant, e.g., IMR 4198, and a CB of say 150gr. develops a certain amount of chamber pressure. This is what pushes the bullet out of the cartridge and ultimately out of the muzzle. The rifling also imparts rotational forces to said bullet. The alloy you use for CB's must be strong enough to withstand the "push" of chamber pressure and as well as the "twisting" imparted by the rifling. If the alloy isn't strong (hard, as in Brinell Hardness/BHN), the CB may skid through the bbl. without gripping the rifling, giving poor accuracy and a leaded bbl. Btw, You may want to visit the CBA website and see if you can locate Steve Hurst's article, "Still More on Chamber Pressure and Brinell Hardness," Fouling Shot #131-10.

[tracker]

Thanks Maven.
I have learned much these last few days. When most folks reload jacketed bullets, they don’t think of such things about slugging a barrel and matching the bullet to the bore. One exception I can think of would be loading for the 303 British. I think cast bullet folks are much more into the science of what happens during the firing of a round then most run of the mill jacketed bullet reloaders. Another exception would be the 1000 yard military rifle folks. They are on par as equals IMHO in knowledge of their craft, different aspects, but both very rewarding in satisfaction.

Tracker

[9.3X62AL]

Cool deal, Tracker. We'll try not to drown you in details.