223 reduced load filler required

[meteorology]

I have been casting many .225 boolits with my Lee 'Bator' mold. Went to the range today to see what speed I was getting on the 25 yrd range. Using my Bruno .223 bolt action rifle, got the following.
1401 ft/sec from 3gr of Red Dot, 1588 ft/sec from 4gr Red Dot. I think I will go for the 4gr version. So I will have about 25 gr of empty space, which is why I got a few silly results like 400 ft/sec.
For black powder to avoid ringfire I have used a breakfast cereal for years.

Is it OK to fill a 223 case to the rim with cereal to hold the charge over the primer, as I have a lot of empty space.

All the best guys

[JIMinPHX]

I've read that a lot of guys use Dacron to fill the empty space in a bottle neck case with smokeless powder. I've also known people to use cream of wheat or grits over small black powder loads in STRAIGHT WALL CASES, but NOT in bottle neck cases like a .223. In bottle neck cases there is the fear of the filler packing up tight & causing a blockage when the powder ignites.

As for me, If I am just using small charges of fast powders for plinkers, I don't bother with filler. If I want spectacular results, I use a powder that better suits the caliber & doesn't leave so much space.

Your charge sounds lite. I don't have data for a .223 with Red dot under a 55-grain boolit, but my Lyman book shows 2.8-4.7 grains of Red Dot under a 225415 in a .218 Bee, which has a fair amount less case capacity. Is there a reason that you want to load to such a low velocity? I've seen that boolit perform well in the 2,000-2,400fps range in a .223 with powders like Unique & 2400.

Edit:

Actually, I do have Lyman data for Red Dot under a 54grain 225462 boolit in the .223. 5.4-8.6 grains for 1675-2100fps. The top load is listed as generating 40.7kcup.

With the 225415, it lists 5.6-9 grains for 1795-2280fps with the same top pressure.

Max pressure in a .223 is 52kcup according to Speer #13.

[meteorology]

Hi Jim,

Yes, there is a good reason for the reduced load. I am in UK and on a State pension of about $800 a month, so cannot afford lots of powder. My red dot gives me 1400 shots per 7000Gr, I am shooting on a 25 yard range, so don't need a very fast boolit.

I don't know if we have Kapok in UK as a product, we have it as a finished product. Any other suggestions?

All the best

[JIMinPHX]

If you really want to get frugal with a Bator in a .223, you might want to follow the thread that I am about to start which will cover my results with modified versions of the Bator in a .223. One modification will be a plain based Bator that I made by reaming out the gas check shank in one cavity of my mold with a .228" reamer. Going without the gas check should bring the price per shot down a fair amount. At your velocity, you should not need a gas check.

[Larry Gibson]

There is no need for a filler or wad of any sort with such a fast burning powder. For frugal loads and excellent performance below 1600 fps in the .223 you might try Bullseye powder. 4 gr runs 1550 fps with a 225415 out of my 12" twist M700V giving excellent accuracy and is deadly on ground squirels. Your red Dot loads should be close to the same and need no filler or wad.

larry Gibson

[NHlever]

I've been working with the .223 off, and on for the past couple of years. I haven't used any fillers in the light loads, and have had good luck with Unique, Red Dot, and TiteGroup for those lighter loads. Aliant 2400 will get you well into .22 Hornet full power equivalant loads. Good luck!

[runfiverun]

he's got the red dot and i doubt it's like here where you just go get another lb of powder after work.
if it seems you are having bad velocity variations you need to change something.
either tilting the bbl before each shot, trying another primer [a small pistol primer would do well here]
or some quilting batting.
now, if you try the batting, be aware the velocity will go up.
as you are in effect making a smaller chamber.
so you need to start at a lower load and come back up.
if your 223 has a faster twist bbl [1-9] the no gas check at 1200 would mimic a heavy 22 long rifle round, which should do well at the short distance you are using it at.

[megafatcat]

I have heard of drilling the flash holes a little larger with light loads. Will the sages here advise if this would help or hurt in this case?

[felix]

Helps only when primer backs out of case. ... felix

[HARRYMPOPE]

i agree with Larry.No fillers and the fast powder.I shoot the 225438 tumble lubed no GC in 22-250's with 4g of BE, Red Dot or Win ST and its great squirrel load.I use it mostly at 15-30 yards out the cabin window at the rodents pooping in my woodpiles.I get 1300 fps or so and 1" 'ish at 50 yards i wouldn't bore out flash-holes.

HMP

[NSP64]

Meteorology, I was thinking of getting a six cavity bator mold, how do you like yours?Are you shooting with or without GC? In my reduced .308 win loads I just tilt the barrel up first, and I use a large pistol primer insted of a LR primer.


JIMinPHX....Did you start the thread? I looked and didn't find it. I was going to get a 6c bator mold and take the GC out of 3 cavities. I await your results.

[JIMinPHX]

NSP64, I didn't start that thread yet. I need to take some pictures first. I plan to try many different options & document my results, but it will take some time, as I'm a little busy right now. The very beginnings of that project are posted at the end of this thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1187577#post1187577 I'm starting to get pretty far off topic from what that thread started out as, so I'm going to start a new one. When I do, I'll post a link to the new thread on that old one.

meteorology, as others have suggested, you might try pointing the muzzle of the gun straight up & then gently coming down from that position to your horizontal shooting position. Sometimes, with a small charge in a big case, that will bring the powder to the back of the case, next to the primer & prevent the kind of partial ignition that may have been the cause of your 400fps squib. I've seen that work in a Lugar that was giving erratic velocities with target loads.

[dualsport]

With this kind of load I go with the powder orienting method. Seems to help consistency. If I can't or don't want to tip up the muzzle I very carefully place each cartridge the same way on the follower and then roll it a bit. Seems to place the powder in a more or less consistent position. There's reams of stuff here written about using fillers or not, or when.

[Larry Gibson]

I have heard of drilling the flash holes a little larger with light loads. Will the sages here advise if this would help or hurt in this case?

Necessary for use with LR primers and this type of low end reduced load in rimless cases to prevent the case shoulder from getting set back after multiple firings. Also helps ignition in some loads in rimmed cases by getting the flash into the case better. I have not found it necessary with this type load in the .222, .223 and 7.62x39 with SR primers.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

I agree with Larry G on no need for any kind of filler with Red Dot, or any very fast powder. Just be careful of double charging!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[ubetcha]

Ed Harris has stated many times that to get good ignition with reduced charge,try winchester primers. I guess they produce a shower of sparks more than others

[meteorology]

Thanks to everyone who replied, I will stick with 5gr of red dot and not bother with any filler. I use 6gr of HP38 in my magnum 44 Long Barrel Revolver and have never had any problems.
Shall be glad when it warms up a bit at the range, they have another 10 inches of snow forecast today for Scotland.

All the best.

[475BH]

Thanks to everyone who replied, I will stick with 5gr of red dot and not bother with any filler. I use 6gr of HP38 in my magnum 44 Long Barrel Revolver and have never had any problems.
Shall be glad when it warms up a bit at the range, they have another 10 inches of snow forecast today for Scotland.

All the best.
What kind of groups are you getting w/ that rifle?
W/ reduced loads I don't even check velocity, I just go for the best accuracy.
I feel there is no reason for it if i'm only shootin 50 yds. or so anyway.
I don't know what bullet you shoot out of your .44, but I have used as little as 3.5 gr. of w-231 w/ a 200 gr. WC in mine and get 1" or better groups @ 25 w/ good light.[smilie=w:

[meteorology]

$75BH Hi,

Well to start with I got 1 inch groups with the 223 with a much faster load, now I'm just interested in the chrono speed, as soon as I am happy with the powder/load I will go for grouping.

With the LBR magnum 44 I get about a five inch group at 25 mtrs, I am quite happy with the 6gr of HP38 and the speed seems reasonably consistent. I am using a Lee 240gr mold and then I put the cast through a lathe made swaging plate that was copied from a FMJ bullet, so my cast is an exact size. Before doing this I got some ammo that was too big to load, but not anymore.

Mind you, I need to be a bit careful, as I have .223, .44, 7.62 molds and the Police have warned me that if I don't buy ammunition I am not showing due usage of my guns and could lose them. These days I cast all my calibres including my muzzleloaders.

All the best for now.

[runfiverun]

they make you buy ammunition??
here they try to price you out of being able to buy it.
i can barely buy primers brass and lead, nevermind powder.
i can't imagine paying more than double what i do now to shoot.

[seppos]

$75BH Hi,



Mind you, I need to be a bit careful, as I have .223, .44, 7.62 molds and the Police have warned me that if I don't buy ammunition I am not showing due usage of my guns and could lose them. These days I cast all my calibres including my muzzleloaders.

All the best for now.

I think that it should be enough to keep a range record of some kind.. And maybe your shooting range have also some kind of recording system of its users..
Copys of those should be sufficient enough..

S

[JIMinPHX]

Another discussion on small charges of fast powders in the .223 -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1194518#post1194518

[JIMinPHX]

JIMinPHX....Did you start the thread? I looked and didn't find it. I was going to get a 6c bator mold and take the GC out of 3 cavities. I await your results.

I started it - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1199576#post1199576