What's the point of casting .38?

[t_dickinson]

Everything I read says that HBWC swaged boolits are the most accurate.

I have a S&W 52-2 and several .38's I want to cast for.

I can't find (Lee) a mold for the HBWC. Even if I do find the mold, I hear that swaged boolits are more accurate and if I cast HB it could tear the skirt and on and on. I would really like to stick to one brand of molds if I can and cast using pretty much all COWW's. I have some SOWW's I could add to soften the batch I think but I have yet to smelt my first batch.

This boolit was the main reason for me to cast and it seems the Lee DEWC has no purpose.

Can I get bullseye accuracy out of the DEWC that I cast or do I have to buy all my .38 and cast everything else.

This whole thing is getting very frustrating[smilie=b:

[Char-Gar]

Folks have been using store bought swaged HBWCs in the 38 Special for many years with complete satisfaction. Just remember to keep the velocity at low target velocities. Push those bullet much faster and it is easy to blow off a skirt and leave it in the barrel to be hit by he next round. Not good. Home cast HBWC and store bought are both prone to this if pushed too hard. On the other hand a solid base WC can be pushed without problems.

[t_dickinson]

But will the solid WC be as accurate?

Just saw a group buy for a Mihac HBWC mold. Sould I buy one and test my luck?

Tha whole point of this endeavour was to avoid buying boolits. I shoot 90% .38 so what's th point if I buy them and cast for the ther 10%

If I can get the accuracy from the DEWC then I'm fine with that.

If I can't, then I would try the group buy as long as it's safe.

I can't imagine ever loading more than 2.8 of bullseye under a 148gr WC.

[bowfin]

I believe there is a group buy going on for hollow based wadcutter moulds (HBWC) right below:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=99991

[fredj338]

But will the solid WC be as accurate?

Just saw a group buy for a Mihac HBWC mold. Sould I buy one and test my luck?

Tha whole point of this endeavour was to avoid buying boolits. I shoot 90% .38 so what's th point if I buy them and cast for the ther 10%

If I can get the accuracy from the DEWC then I'm fine with that.

If I can't, then I would try the group buy as long as it's safe.

I can't imagine ever loading more than 2.8 of bullseye under a 148gr WC.You have just as much of a chance getting the DEWC to shoot well as the HBWC. Cast them the same, your pistol would tell you what it likes. If you shoot a ton of 38HBCW, get a Lyman 4cav DEWC mold & send it to Erik for cup pointng the base. then you can cast 4 at a pop. Yes it will cost a lot more than a Lee, but 4x faster.

[HangFireW8]

Wow, a 38 caster that is not really doing .357. Not many left, it seems.

NRA tests found that linotype cast boolits were the most accurate cast. However it took a Ransom rest to find the difference. Same with factory, they were the standard but it took a Ransom rest to see just how accurate they were.

What is you exact goal? Purely cost? Independence? Absolute accuracy? Some combination?

Chances are you can find some non-hollow-base molds that will shoot better than you- and win matches. If they are all in the X ring it doesn't matter if they aren't a cloverleaf. And, you don't even need Linotype to keep them all in the X ring.

[fecmech]

I'll cost you about $40. to buy a 6 cav lee mold to try and if it doesn't work out for you sell it on the board for $20. Unless you are a Master class shooter I don't think the Lee bullet will cost you too many points. I have a S&W revolver that puts solid base wadcutters (H&G#50's) well inside the 10 ring on a 50 yd target and probably 8 out of the 10 will hold the X ring. I only wish I could!

Another option is just buy bulk HB wadcutters, if you buy 2K they're about $.06 each. Myself if I wanted the HB's I'd buy rather than cast tem.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=1601192625

[BLTsandwedge]

My S&W 64 (after-market 'smithed to be a wad gun) shoots better with plain base WCs. I actually get leading with pure lead HBWCs even when using very light loads- i.e. 2.4g Clays or 2.7g BE. H&G's #50 (plain base 148g WC) cast from WW+ drop of tin over 2.7g Clays does 785fps- I can't find anything more accurate. I've got an H&G 10-holer and a 6-holer.....I can empty a 20# pot pretty quick.......

[JIMinPHX]

As I understand it, the hollow base is there so that a low pressure powder charge will be able to upset the skirt & form a complete gas seal in a barrel that has a groove diameter that is slightly mismatched to the boolit. If you cast your own flat base wadcutter & size it to match your barrel correctly, you should be able to get excellent accuracy. Store bought boolits are one size fits all. Home cast can be custom fit which is often better.

[Bret4207]

Everything I read says that HBWC swaged boolits are the most accurate.I

I have a S&W 52-2 and several .38's I want to cast for.

I can't find (Lee) a mold for the HBWC. Even if I do find the mold, I hear that swaged boolits are more accurate and if I cast HB it could tear the skirt and on and on. I would really like to stick to one brand of molds if I can and cast using pretty much all COWW's. I have some SOWW's I could add to soften the batch I think but I have yet to smelt my first batch.

This boolit was the main reason for me to cast and it seems the Lee DEWC has no purpose.

Can I get bullseye accuracy out of the DEWC that I cast or do I have to buy all my .38 and cast everything else.

This whole thing is getting very frustrating[smilie=b:

Well, first off calm down and don't get frustrated over this. DEWC can be jsut as accurate as HBWC if you put the time into figuring out what your gun wants, learn to cast really good boolits and put the time into ensuring you are producing the best possible loads for your guns. If you aren't willing to put some R+D time and time learning to cast really good boolits then this might not be for you. OTH, if you see this a logical extension of reloading an shooting and are willing to invest some time and energy you might find yourself out shooting the guys using store bought.

It's up to you. I wouldn't recommend sinking a mess of money into a high dollar mould till you find out if casting even appeals to you at all. Start with a simple Lee 2 cavity, a lot and ladle. See if you love it or hate it , then decide.

[ipopum]

My mold is a 2 cavity lyman & i have cast & shot a lot of wadcutters. Mine is not double end style. When first learning to shoot a center fire pistol i shot arround 1000 loads per year. When i improved i learned that i could hit a clay pigeon at 100 yards about every 4 or 5 shots.
Not free hand but resting the but & my hand on a sandbag. My best load for my Dan Wessen 357 is 4.0 of bullseye in a 38 special case. My wadcutter is a 141 grain slug. My lyman loading book lists a starting load of 3.1gr, 778fps up to 4.1gr,973fps.

[t_dickinson]

Wow, this group really circles the wagons when a guy needs help. I read all the responses twice and not one smart-a** remark. Only sage advice from many perspectives that gave me the whole picture.

I was getting overloaded by reading too much archive stuff for fear someone would post the "USE THE SEARCH" comment and blow me off. I'm really glad I asked and very thankful for all those who stepped up with the very detailed replies.

The people on this site are really incredible and you all just prevented me from throwing in the towel before the fight started.

I will take the advice and calm down. I will try the more economical Lee mold before sinking too much money into this and ruining the enjoyment by sweating the price of the custom mold.

My goals are to save money while doing something that suits me to a T.

I love nothing more than to dissect ordinary tasks into "experiments". To me, the thought of slugging bores and taking fine measurements then recording data and refining loads and boolits is the best part. I love to get lost in the details.

I asked another question earlier today and got great advice on the proper mix of bread dough and you all just gave me a BIG head start on mold selection.

I will try the Lee DEWC with a 50/50 mix of COWW and SOWW. I will go slow and concentrate on good boolits and let the speed come naturally.

Did I miss anything? Certainly you guys did not and I am truly greatful and profoundly impressed.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

[NHlever]

For me, casting wadcutters has always been a matter of how much raw material I have on hand. If I'm low on lead, wheel weights, etc. I usually buy the bulk HBWC, but if I have plenty of reserve material, I enjoy casting them. Both shoot better than I can by quite a bit these days.

[runfiverun]

just an fyi.
the federal match target cases are different than regular cases, in that they have a more square profile to the case.
so the boolit doesn't get deformed when seating into the thicker based case.
so using a swc seated out of the case could actually be more accurate in most cases.

[DIRT Farmer]

When I could see, I started with HBWC for match and DEWC for practice. When I went to the Lyman ( I( just looked in the Midway catalog and they don't list it anymore) plain base WC I could not tell any differance in the scores. I then bought a 4 cavity mould. I try to keep at least 2 large coffee cans full ready to load, but it takes more than a year to shoot them up anymore. The only place I use HBWC now is in my muzzle loading match pistol.

[KYCaster]

As I understand it, the hollow base is there so that a low pressure powder charge will be able to upset the skirt & form a complete gas seal in a barrel that has a groove diameter that is slightly mismatched to the boolit. If you case your own flat base wadcutter & size it to match your barrel correctly, you should be able to get excellent accuracy. Store bought boolits are one size fits all. Home cast can be custom fit which is often better.

Exactly what I was thinking.


just an fyi.
the federal match target cases are different than regular cases, in that they have a more square profile to the case.
so the boolit doesn't get deformed when seating into the thicker based case.
so using a swc seated out of the case could actually be more accurate in most cases.

As I understand it, any case with two cannaleurs on it was originally loaded with a wadcutter and doesn't have the internal taper, regardless of head stamp. I've always found that to be true.


Wow, this group really circles the wagons when a guy needs help. I read all the responses twice and not one smart-a** remark. Only sage advice from many perspectives that gave me the whole picture.

I was getting overloaded by reading too much archive stuff for fear someone would post the "USE THE SEARCH" comment and blow me off. I'm really glad I asked and very thankful for all those who stepped up with the very detailed replies.

The people on this site are really incredible and you all just prevented me from throwing in the towel before the fight started.

I will take the advice and calm down. I will try the more economical Lee mold before sinking too much money into this and ruining the enjoyment by sweating the price of the custom mold.

My goals are to save money while doing something that suits me to a T.

I love nothing more than to dissect ordinary tasks into "experiments". To me, the thought of slugging bores and taking fine measurements then recording data and refining loads and boolits is the best part. I love to get lost in the details.

I asked another question earlier today and got great advice on the proper mix of bread dough and you all just gave me a BIG head start on mold selection.

I will try the Lee DEWC with a 50/50 mix of COWW and SOWW. I will go slow and concentrate on good boolits and let the speed come naturally.

Did I miss anything? Certainly you guys did not and I am truly greatful and profoundly impressed.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Be sure to take a close at your WW. Lots of Zinc and steel showing up in the current crop....clip on's AND stick on's. A pair of lineman's pliers or a drop of muriatic acid will tell you what's what.

And, yes, you'll find a bunch of helpful people here.

Welcome aboard
Jerry

[deltaenterprizes]

Weight consistency is a big part of match quality, sorting your boolits by weight will help help with tight groups.

[MT Gianni]

Remember that everything you read and hear only applies to their guns. You may get only 1/8" difference from a solid based WC for 1/8th the cost or less. I can't shoot that well.

[lwknight]

Very interesting about the brass.
I would never have known about the double cannalure brass being for HBWC because I never bought any factory 38s in my life. I just scavaged up range brass by the 1000s over the years.

[runfiverun]

i don't know about rem or any others.
the fed i was sure of, and was pretty sure of the wins but don't have any around to check.
but if jerry says so, i'll go with it.

[Gunsmoke4570]

I use Speer HBWC in my model 52, but am on the group buy for the Mihec mold. I've never tried the DEWC in the 52, but they always provided slightly less accurate in my revolvers. Also keep in mind the 52 was designed for LIGHT loads, don't try to hot rod it. The 52 is also finickey about how much crimp to apply as well, not enough and it jams, too much hurts accuracy.

[Larry Gibson]

years ago when i was shooting PPC/TRC most of the shooters used RP factory WCs for big matches and their own reloads with DEWCs for practice and some matches. Most used commercial bullets from makers such as Zero. I asked how much better their scores were with the RP factory but most of them could not give a definative answer. Most just 'thought" they did better with the factory loads.

The LEO agency I worked for had a practically unused Lyman 4 cavity 358495 WC mould. I also had access to a well benched Ransom Rest to test loads in my M15 Power PPC revolver. I found those 358495s when cast of 40-1 lead-tin alloy, sized .359, lubed with Javelina loaded over 2.7 gr Bullseye in RP factory WC cases with a light taper crimp shot every bit as well at 50 yards as any factory WC load.

The key to success was not quanity of reloads but quality of the reloads. I was careful in casting to produce uniform bullets, did a visual inspection of each bullet before sizing/lubing, and taking the same care with the cases. I also tracked the number of times each case was fired and kept them segregated by the number of times fired. I found accuracy remained the same though 10 - 12 firings but then would get flyers (from X ring in B27 target out into the 10 ring) after that so I quit using the cases for matches after 10 firings. That probably will vary with case make, perhaps case lot and the load used. I found that with practice, even with a single stage press, I was still able to cast and load enough for my 500 - 800 rounds a month needs for practice and competition.

I guess my point here is like the other posters, with some dilligent casting and loading you can load WC ammo every bit as good as factory HBWCs so don't get discouraged, keep at it and you'll get what you want.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Al Miller did a couple of good articles in Handloader back in the 70's and 80's regarding WC's and accuracy. I don't have the articles handy but IIRC he compared match ammo and home cast using a Ransom Rest. He pretty much proved 2 things- Factory match ammo was good stuff and you can build home loaded, home cast ammo that's just as good or better, but it takes attention to detail and time. A swaged boolit has a better chance of be free of voids and completely uniform than a cast boolit UNLESS you take the time to make the effort to produce best quality castings.

[mroliver77]

I am pretty sure I have a single cavity Lyman DEWC mold. I started with it and then bought a 4 cavity. You are welcome to borrow it for a few months if'n you pay the shipping on it both ways.
Jay

[JIMinPHX]

If I'm going to load full wadcutters flush with the mouth of the brass, like for a Bullseye gun, I always use brass that was originally factory loaded with flush full wad cutters. The profile of the inside of the brass does seem to be different.

[StrawHat]

Like other who have responded, I shot PPC for years. And like some of them, I used HBWCs for matches and cast DEWCs for practice. Actually, I used to buy loaded ammo for practice until I reloaded some HBWCs and found my match scores were the same. Then came the day the light bulb went on over my head. I realized my practice scores were as good as my match scores! After that, when I had time I cast and loaded DEWCs. When I did not have the time I used HBWCs. A six cavity mold drops them fairly quick and once you get used to using one, you can cast some very good boolits. Start with the 2 cavity and see how your scores are.

I was buying from NBC and since they went out of business all my WCs are cast. I do not compete anymore but still manage to shoot a lot of WCs.

[StrawHat]

HangFireW8 ...Wow, a 38 caster that is not really doing .357...

I just realized that I am in this group! I can not remember the last time I fired a 357 Magnum round. Or a 357 revovler as most of my 38s are shot from a S&W M15. So why I am keeping the 686s and 27s?

[casterofboolits]

My first pistol reloads were wadcutters for 38 Special. Being a poor boy raising a family, I maybe got out to shoot once a month. My personal allowance was five bucks, if I had the five to spare. But I could buy a hundred 148 grain wadutters for $1.49, primers were $.49/100 and a pound of Uniqe or Bullseye was $2.98.

One of the gun rags ($.50!) had an article on reloading wadutters and showed a set of wadcutter reloading dies (RCBS?) that had a longer expander plug for wadcutters which the author touted for getting the best accuracy out of the wadcutters. I couldn't afford another set of 38 dies. I worked for a company making stamping die tooling and made a new expander plug out of A2 tool steel with the help of a shooting buddy in the tool room. I didn't see any real improvement in accuracy in my shooting, but did reduce the buldge in the case. Of course my well used, $25.00 S&W 4" Mod. 10 could have not been the best test bed. I had tons of fun with this combo and was able to pop a few rabbits and ground hogs with the lt.