How much Dacron filler to use?

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

First, I couldn't find a better place to post this. Sorry if this is an inappropriate location.

I've only just begun my experiments with fillers, and I'm feeling my way along. I know better than to leave any space in the case, but I don't know how tightly to pack the filler. In my brief experiments so far I've stuffed in enough to fill the space between the powder and bullet base, with a bit of compression when the bullet was seated. I'm loading 45-70 with 400 gr cast bullets, and will soon be loading 9.3x74R with 270 gr cast bullets.

Last night I read an old "Handloader" article by Ross Seyfried on the 450 Nitro Express. He said he uses 10 - 15 gr of Dacron. So, I weighed 15 gr of Dacron today, and it is A LOT!

So, my questions are:

1. When you load with Dacron as a filler, how tightly do you pack the filler?
2. How much filler, by weight, do you use?

Thanks, Tom

[Big Boomer]

While I've never loaded for the .45-70, I have previously used filler in loading for the .30-06. However, it seems to be the conventional wisdom of most who have weighed in on this subject that the use of filler is either unnecessary or a mistake. Some say if you need filler, you are using the wrong powder. I can't say that the use of filler helped in loading for my .30-06. When I used filler, I weighed 1/2 grain on a balance scale so that everything would be uniform, pushing it down on top of the powder charge. 1/2 grain of filler (kapok) is a pretty good volume. 'Tuck

[Larry Gibson]

Go to CB loads, Your Favorite Cartridge and read the top thread sticky titled "fillers".

Then ask any specific questions and several of us will be glad to help.

Larry Gibson

[GBertolet]

I too have never used dacron in a 45-70. But I use it regularly in my 375 H&H. I pull off just enough to bridge the diameter of the case, maybe pea sized while compressed in my fingers. I push down on the dacron, with the eraser end of a pencil to expand it and make a seal. My intent is to use just enough to hold the powder in place against the primer, during normal handling. For target shooting at the range, you don't need much to get by. However in hunting applications, where rougher handling is likely, a more generous amount of dacron may be needed. I keep reading about ringed chambers by shooters using dacron fillers. Probably from using generous amounts of dacron. I feel using minimal amounts of dacron, will eliminate this possibility. Small amounts of dacron are easily consumed in firing, while larger amounts can add to bore fouling.

[Tatume]

Well, before this goes any further, everything I have read for years indicates that too little filler causes ringed chambers, not too much. The practice of pushing a bit of filler down onto the powder charge and leaving an air space between the filler and bullet base seems to be universally condemed by people who claim knowledge in this area.

However, there's a lot of wiggle room between filling the available space and packing in 15 gr of Dacron. That's where I'm looking for information. I'm on my way now to read the sticky to which I was directed.

[35remington]

Any (mostly anecdotal) complaints about chamber ringing have been mostly claimed alongside reports of using such quantities of dacron filler that did not fill the available space, rather than too much.

Using "minimal" amounts of dacron is asking for some degree of trouble. I would not do it. The bad consequences resulting from too little dacron use are of greater magnitude than using too much.

The dacron must be of such volume that it is capable of doing what it is asked to do, which is hold the powder immobile regardless of what external forces may be present that try to dislodge it.

Shifting powder with a tuft of dacron skidding around and possibly mixing with said powder is a situation that you must avoid. Minimal is not good. "Enough" is better.

Dacron is long fibered and springy, and can hold powder in place that weighs considerably more than the dacron, but you must give it some help by:

1) Ensuring that the dacron fills the entirety of the available space, and
2) is of sufficient density to fill that space with enough resistant dacron that the powder cannot shift around.

I suggest inserting some dacron in a charged case, then removing it and comparing its volume to that of the space you want to fill. What you see is similar to its condition at repose in the case.

Further, once you add dacron, slam the case, mouth down, as hard as you can manage against the top of your loading bench. Toss it against the carpeted floor, then, to ease your mind, against a hardwood floor if you're the inquisitive sort.

See how this holds up and if it fully prevents the powder from position shifts.

It should be able to resist some pretty serious G's in terms of impact and ability to hold the powder in place.

Depending upon the size of the case and the space to be filled, amounts can range from a small fraction of a grain to a few grains or so.

It should not be "packed" in as in the sense of tamping it down hard. Just push it in the case until resistance is lightly felt, ensuring the available space is filled from powder to where the bullet's base will be. Ensure that the dacron, before seating the bullet, will be a bit above the final position of the bullet's base.

Now test it. Visibly, the dacron should be substantial enough, when viewed from the top, that the powder cannot be seen through it. It should look "filled in" but not solid. Start the inertia testing after this is verified.

After the inertia testing, carefully remove the dacron and examine it. There should be no substantial amount of powder contained within the dacron fibers, and powder should not come out of the case along with the dacron when it is removed. The dacron should still be resting above the powder as it is withdrawn with no intermixing of the two after the inertia tests.

[ubetcha]

I have some reduced loads for my 06 that I intend to use as cast bullet bench rest and I used a small pinch of dryer lint.Justenough to keep the powder against the primer.All cases are bullet up in the load boxes and will be genty loaded one at a time .Dryer lint is very plentiful and cheap

[35remington]

One caution to the "drier lint" adherents........

Drier lint is tiny bits of fibers that are not long threaded and springy as is a tuft of dacron. It has poor memory and once compressed, stays compressed.

I have doubts, through actual testing, that it is the equal of dacron. With dacron so cheap (practically no cost per shot), I regard drier lint as a decidedly poor substitute for dacron.

[mpmarty]

I solved the dacron filler problem years ago. I quit using it or any other filler.

[geargnasher]

If used properly, Dacron is an excellent and safe filler.

+1 on the sticky Larry mentioned, it has a terrific overview of the principles and applications of Dacron as a filler.

Ringed chambers are reported to be caused by using a wad or something that acts as one tamped down on the powder, holding the powder tight but leaving a significant air gap between wad and boolit base. That creates a jackhammer effect when the powder lights under compression and the burn takes off, forcing the wad against the boolit base at hundreds of miles per hour and then SLAM has to overcome the static inertia of the boolit to continue expanding. The impact of the pressure wave is directed outward from the boolit base at such force it can bulge the chamber in a ring.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Dacron filler problem....what dacron filler problem?

The dacron filler does not cause "ringing" The use of hard wads does. There is even a question as to whether a dacron wad will cause "ringing". I quit using dacron as a wad only because of powder migration around the loosened wad under recoil of rounds in the magazine. I have chronographed many thousands of loads with dacron fillers over the years and in the last 2 years have pressure tested many, many more loads of various cartridges with dacron fillers. Never, ever in 4035+ years of both have I found one single speck of evidence of a pressure spike or any other problem. What I have found almost universally is that with the right powders of certain loading densities that ignition consistency and accuracy are always better. Wouldn't it be better to rely on confirmed information before yelling the sky is falling, crying wolf or saying the emporor has no close on. I understand caution but this topic has been well covered numerous times. Anything can be done incorrectly and cause problems. I don't think we should condem something because someone misused it. Of course all are free to do as they wish. I shall continue to use a dacron filler in numerous different cartridges, I'll just do it correctly is all.

Larry Gibson

[BABore]

Dacron filler problem....what dacron filler problem?

The dacron filler does not cause "ringing" The use of hard wads does. There is even a question as to whether a dacron wad will cause "ringing". I quit using dacron as a wad only because of powder migration around the loosened wad under recoil of rounds in the magazine. I have chronographed many thousands of loads with dacron fillers over the years and in the last 2 years have pressure tested many, many more loads of various cartridges with dacron fillers. Never, ever in 4035+ years of both have I found one single speck of evidence of a pressure spike or any other problem. What I have found almost universally is that with the right powders of certain loading densities that ignition consistency and accuracy are always better. Wouldn't it be better to rely on confirmed information before yelling the sky is falling, crying wolf or saying the emporor has no close on. I understand caution but this topic has been well covered numerous times. Anything can be done incorrectly and cause problems. I don't think we should condem something because someone misused it. Of course all are free to do as they wish. I shall continue to use a dacron filler in numerous different cartridges, I'll just do it correctly is all.

Larry Gibson

Holy crappage but you are an old fart! You've been stuffing dacron into things that weren't even a thought for another 3,500 years. No way anybody can match your experience level.:kidding:

[Larry Gibson]

Holy crappage is right!!!! 4035+ years sure makes me old....amazing what a slip of the fingers can do for one:coffeecom Thanks for the catch, I corrected it:killingpc

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i think larry is 4035 years
nevernind :lol:
dryer lint can make a good filler in the right cases and circumstances.
it does not need to be packed in there and the same cautions need to be followed.also what the lint comes from makes a difference.
anyways using dacron from batting cut into squares is pretty easy and insures the same volumn from round to round.
my most accurate loads use a medium speed powder and a filler or a slow powder filling the case over 90%.

[Walter Laich]

I have some reduced load .45-70 loads and I use disks cut out of 1/2 inch foam backer rod
http://www.bestmaterials.com/images/backer_rod-large.jpghttp://www.bestmaterials.com/images/soft-backer-rod.jpg

I cut off a disk about 3/16, give or take and push it down over the powder charge.

I've have good luck with these loads

as always: YMMV

[Longwood]

How about using enough backer rod (Home Depot calls the small 1/2" stuff caulk saver) to completely fill to the base of the bullet? If it is compressed just a little in a case like the 45-70, it swells to the size of the case making certain the powder would stay in place.
I am trying to make up some fairly easy shooting loads for a 45-70 for the ladies and young boys.

Non related question.
Did they really need 50 badge wielding thugs to invade Charlies house?

[geargnasher]

I have some reduced load .45-70 loads and I use disks cut out of 1/2 inch foam backer rod
http://www.bestmaterials.com/images/backer_rod-large.jpghttp://www.bestmaterials.com/images/soft-backer-rod.jpg

I cut off a disk about 3/16, give or take and push it down over the powder charge.

I've have good luck with these loads

as always: YMMV

I think that's exactly the practice that is rumored to cause the ringing. Not saying you shouldn't keep doing it, but that your might be pushing the edge of safety. Now, if you used enough foam backer to slightly compress the powder when seating the boolit like Longwood mentioned, you should eliminate any chance of a secondary shockwave forming inside your cartridge case.

Gear

[35remington]

Given that dacron is darn near free in the quantities we use it, well proven and perfectly suited to the task, I wonder at all the other attempts to use other things as filler with various degrees of advisability and risk.

Practically free, easy to do and effective aren't persuasive enough?

[HammerMTB]

Practically free, easy to do and effective aren't persuasive enough?

We have a saying at work: If there's a way to complicate things, we WILL find it.
I do believe it may apply here as well.
I feel right at home! :veryconfu:kidding:

[pls1911]

The key simply do not PACK it on the powder.
In a 45-70, I use a VERY airy loose piece about 1" diameter' loosely inserted to just hold the powder and loosely fill the space, but not packed to create a "wad".

[Pirate69]

Well, after reading this, I am not sure if I am using too much or not. However, I am sure that I am not using too little. I am using dacron in a 30-06 Garand cast round. I am cutting a square, approx. 1"X1", and stuffing it over 34 grains of IMR 4895. It stuffs in the case and ends up with a fill to about 1/4"-3/16" below the case mouth. The cast boolit does a slight compression of the fill. Seeing just a little of the dacron "snow" as it fires.

[Larry Gibson]

Pirate69

That's probably a little more than is needed. The "snow" is a good indicator of that. Suggest you cut that square in half and try it (1"x 1/2").

Larry Gibson