Casting .25 cal. rifle for Roberts

[Ben]

I have a couple of super accuracte rifles in 25 cal. One is a 257 Roberts and the other is a 250 / 3000 , both have 1 -14 twist barrels. Both shoot their best groups with the " light weights ". Neither rifle will shoot a 120 gr. bullet very well.

So, I decided to acquire a .25 cal. bullet mold that would go with the 1-14 twist of both rifles.

It is a single cav., 80 gr. spire point, gas check design. Falling from the mold at 78.6 grs. , OD 260.5

My only sizing die is .257, I'm thinking of opening up my sizing die to .258 or .2585 to insure a good snug fit in both rifles.

Tell me what you think ? ? Anyone offer me some good starting loads for the 2 cartridges that might get me off to a good start.

Ben in
Alabama

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2-3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/1-4.jpg

[felix]

What powders are on the shelf? ... felix

[Ben]

SR 4759, IMR 4198, 2400, Unique, AA 5744, IMR 4227, RL - 7, WW 231, R - Dot, IMR 3031, IMR 4895 and probably about 30 others..........

Thanks,

Ben

[felix]

OK, lets start with the 250-3000 because the case is smaller. Shuz has had more experience than I with this caliber, but lately he seldom shows up. The objective with a known accurate gun is obtain close to 40K cup at 2400 fps, assuming the boolit stays centered throughout the barrel (pointed boolits present a real challenge). Here goes your first scenario: circa 15 grains 2400. Find the most accurate load using a non-magnum primer, and then try to fine tune with a primer change. Keep notes so you can inform me of what happened when. ... felix

PS. Should be around 1800-2100 fps; I'm a little worried about that point giving out, but you will have to tell me how the target reacts. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Tell me what you think ? ? Anyone offer me some good starting loads for the 2 cartridges that might get me off to a good start.

Ben in
Alabama



Ben,

Start at 36 grains in the 250 and 40 in the Roberts of 7828 or RL22 with a magnum pistol primer.

[Ben]

I'll try some of your loads and keep you informed, thanks for the quick responses.

What about sizing dia. of the bullet ?

Is .257 dia. in a .257 bore a good idea ? I was leaning in the direction of .2585 or so ??

Ben

[felix]

Slow powders might prove out good with that boolit! Size the largest that you can fit into the gun giving about 0.002 max total clearance at the case neck. ... felix

[Ben]

Will there be any hopes for good accuracy with the faster shotgun type powders ( Unique, etc ) vs. the slower rifle powders ?

[Bass Ackward]

Will there be any hopes for good accuracy with the faster shotgun type powders ( Unique, etc ) vs. the slower rifle powders ?


Ben,

Sure. But at much lower velocities.

Seat out to engrave with the loads I listed. Those are only about 24,000 psi, but will have you around 2400 fps.

[tanstafl10]

I am a newbie. but I have been lurking about for a couple years. I hope I am not being ignorant by posting a reply. I am not sure about the etiquet (sp) of jumping in with a question. Sorry in advance if i am doing wrong. just let me know.

HOWEVER..... You got my interest with this post on .25 cast!! I have been working on a load in a 257 Rob using LYMAN'S 257464 mold.

It is not a one-holer (..yet), but does well at 100 yards with BL-c2 or WC 846. Just what can be expected of cast boolits in terms of accurracy? Also, is there that much accuracy difference in a cast spire point vs. a cast round nose?? One reply here indicated as much.

BTW, THANKS to all, I have learned a lot from this site just lurking around. Very informative.

[Maxthompson]

Newbie,

Never worry about jumping in, most of us here are kind of thick skinned and it takes someone a lot less polite than you to get something headed the wrong way.

Welcome,

Now for the important stuff. What kind of beer do you drink?

Mike

[Bass Ackward]

Just what can be expected of cast boolits in terms of accurracy?

Also, is there that much accuracy difference in a cast spire point vs. a cast round nose?? One reply here indicated as much.



Tans,

I have always had at least the same accuracy success and sometimes better with cast. (If you slow fire.) The smoother the internal bore finish and the better the dimensions, the higher velocity potential you can go. And you MUST be able to fit and size a bullet to THAT gun to achieve good success at HV. And your bullet must be designed to do what you want it to do.

Bullet design for lead is different than jacketed because the metal is weaker. You need more bearing area and less unsupported nose weight with lead than with copper. Especially if you want to go fast. Round noses tend to be better than spitzers in factory configurations. But with that being said, you can design a poor round nose that won't stabilize and you can design a good spitzer that will. All you need, is to understand how at what you are trying to achieve.

In general though, people tend to have harder times with the spitzers. Mostly from bullet fit, to not seating in the lands for guidance, and trying to use too fast of powders. I like the range you are operating in for slower stuff.

And welcome to the board.

[Bret4207]

That booilt looks like a 258388. The older Lyman manuals from the 40's,50's,60's have load listed for this design in the 250 (what a nice cartridge!) and 257 R. The big issue with the spire point type designs seems to be ballance vs. bearing area as BA said. I'd make sure my barrel was spotlessly clean of fouling, both powder and copper, and since the booilt has a short bearing length I'd check for run out on the loaded round. Also make sure that your sizing die doesn't leave the neck so tight as to mangle the booilt. Since that long unsupported nose is hanging way out there ready to cause all sorts of problems, I would be merciless in inspection of the boolits. I might even weigh a few after visual inspection to eliminate any potential issues. Find out if the mould is performing for you or sneaking some voids in. Listen to Felix on the pressure vs speed issue. He's got the dope figured on that issue.

FWIW- If the design doesn't work out, you might consider hollow pointing the mould. It's only a theory of mine, not endorsed by anyone else I kow of, but considering the large number of "pointed" designs out there that have a reputation for not shooting and the large number of reports of hollow pointed designs that do shoot good I think it might be worth a try on a mould that should perform, but won't. HPing move the center of gravity back towards the supported area of the boolit. Thats the reason for trying it, not for "super explosive" performance. A Forster hollow pointer would work for experimental work (make sure boolit runout is at a minimum) and if it works Buckshot offers a HPing service. Just a thought.

[shooter2]

Well... I've had pretty good luck with my Ruger #1 in .257 Roberts. Using the RCBS 257/120/SP and 14.0 Grains of SR4759 I get under 2" and the best at just over 1.3" at 100 yards for five shots. Same bullet and 18.0 grains of 4198 will do the same. These are sized .258" and lubed with LBT blue. I seat these just into the lands. FWIW...

[tanstafl10]

Thanks for the welcome!!

MAXTHOMPSON,
Sorry--- It's Jack and Ginger for me!! But I'll still tip one with you in the "spirit" of things.


BASS ACKWARD,
Your 2nd paragraph is interesting. never had it put that way. Considering that-- spitzer/roundnose, one just has to play to find out if it works. And to me, it is all about the playing. Thanks for the info.


My 257464 is a Loverin design, but I was thinking of getting a spire point (Lyman 257418) and so was interested in the discussion here.

BEN,
My best groups were with IMR 4198 with cast in the 257 R. I could get 1" @ 100 yds, but like TRP BRET said, I had to keep the barrel clean during shooting. I also cleaned heavy to get rid of copper at the start. After a few fouling shots it settled down to decent groups. I was using 23 gr of the IMR 4198 and the boolits are linotypeand sized .258 seated just short of lands.

BTW, this is a summary of today's shooting-- this thread just made me want to run right out and shoot the 257 R today, thanks for thr excuse!!

[Ben]

Thanks to all of you for your comments. You've helped me save time, money and components with your good experience with .25 cal. cast bullets in the 257 Roberts and my 250 / 3000. Now I'm headed to the basement to the loading bench and see how much I've actually learned.

Thanks,

Ben in
Alabama

[Ben]

I said in one of the earlier post that i planned to open up my .257 sizing die. Today, I did just that. My goal was to land between .258 and 2585

I'm there.....I hope this will be a good dia. for my Roberts and 250 / 3000.

BTW.....the sized bullet is very concentric with a reading of .2583 on all points.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/1-5.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

Ben--your photography is EXCELLENT.

In my Savage 99 in 250 Savage, I can't discern a difference in accuracy between boolits sized at .258" and .260". The boolit I mean here is the NEI 100 grain bore rider/spire point that looks like a 30 caliber RG-4 that shrunk in the wash. Like your 250/3000, my rifle has the 1-14" twist, and does poorly with boolits/bullets weighing 115-120 grains. My go-to load is 12.0 grains of 2400, which is mild (about 1600 FPS or so, estimated) but gives a good seal without "burn-back" on case mouth or shoulder. I also have Lymans #257312 and #257420, but haven't done very much with either boolit in this rifle.

Check for PM, sir.

Allen Paine

[Ben]

I think 12.0 grs. of 2400 with my .2583 dia. gas checked 78 gr. cast spire point will be the first load tried. Sounds like a good place to start. Thanks for the guidance Allen.

Best to you and your family in this Chirstmas Season,

Ben

[9.3X62AL]

And to you and yours, Ben!

I tried out the Savage 99 in 250 again today at the Burrito Shoot--the loads and rifle did fine from the bags, but once I stood up on my hind legs to fire--the Burrito Rapscallions deftly detached me from my $1 entry fee/purse contribution. As usual.

Next week--no more Mr. Nice Guy.