Long ramrod

[Reg]

A good friend in Wyoming and I have been going back and forth on a question and decided to pose it here hoping we could get a final answer.
In the target shooting scene of Alvin York, the movie, almost all of the shooters have their ramrods sticking beyond the barrel by at least three to four inches, some more. Many pictures shown in various books also show this. Now the ramrod dosn't seem to be in the barrel itself but rather under in its proper place as it should be so I think we can rule out the fact it would be in a loaded barrel. Besides, this is a real unsafe ( dumb) way to carry your ramrod.
Anyone got any ideas on this.
Thanks
Reg

:|

[northmn]

You will see one sticking out in photos also. About the only thing unhandy about it would be carrying it in places where it could catch on something and break off or catch on things? It would give the user something to grip when seating a ball or cleaning. Most back then did not have screw in jags. We tend to keep them even with the muzzle as a matter of neatness or looks today. I have a 4" extender that screws into the tip with a Jag on it I keep in my hunting bag. Many shooters today almost consider the rifle rod a decoration as they use a field rod and hardly ever carry one in the field. I like to pay a little more attention to them as they are really a needed part of the rifle.

DP

DP

[mooman76]

I was thinking like Northmn. A rod cut to barrel length works fine for loading since the load keeps it from going in all the way but if you try to clean your ML with your ramrod, it leaves you little to grab to pull it back out. I don't usually use my ramrod anymore. I carry a rod that I never bothered to cut to length so it's easier.

[stubshaft]

All of my flintlocks have ramrods extended out from the barrel by a couple of inches. The only shortcoming I've found is that the muzzle blast will darken the rod but other than that I don't have any problems with it.

[Reg]

stubshaft, but why do you do it?

Thanks
Reg

[DIRT Farmer]

I also have my hunting ram rods sticking past the barrel an inch or so. Even with the 1.5 inch jag screwed on it is not much to hold to wipe the barrel.

[Lead Fred]

Besides, this is a real unsafe ( dumb) way to carry your ramrod.
:|

Not unsafe, just gets messy. In 30 years of rondies, Ive never seen any sort of mishap from them long ones.
I have seen lots of ramrods shot downrange. That is unsafe, and messy. (for the rod)

BTW they are longer rods made that way, not a flush one stuck out of its holder.
That us just butt stupid

[Geraldo]

Reg,

I used to shoot a .36. Loaded with just 40gr fffg and the tiny RB, a barrel length rod and jag didn't leave me much real estate when loading, and less when swabbing the bore. If you've ever had to pull a ball or gotten the rod stuck with a cleaning patch, you should understand the advantages to cutting ramrods a little long. Not Sgt. York long, but a couple inches.

On another note, if you have a DVR, watch the prone turkey shoot scene in York a few times and see what they're shooting.

[Reg]

I think I now see the reason for the longer ramrod. Makes sense. More gripping area especially with the smaller calibers.

Geraldo : No, I don't have the movie but will add it to the collection as soon as possible. I must not have paid much attention at the turkey shoot. I just assumed they were shooting the smoke poles they were walking around with. What did they do ? Sneak in trapdoors like they did in North West Passage?
Did enjoy the scene of Ward Bond casting balls at the shoot.

:-)

[Hanshi]

I normally refit my guns rods longer than what comes with the gun. They usually extend an inch or two beyond the muzzle and work fine for me.

As a humorous aside, I've noticed in magazine cartoons, etc., that HillBillys are usually portrayed with ramrods sticking way beyond their guns muzzles and bent at weird angles.

[Geraldo]

I think I now see the reason for the longer ramrod. Makes sense. More gripping area especially with the smaller calibers.

Geraldo : No, I don't have the movie but will add it to the collection as soon as possible. I must not have paid much attention at the turkey shoot. I just assumed they were shooting the smoke poles they were walking around with. What did they do ? Sneak in trapdoors like they did in North West Passage?
Did enjoy the scene of Ward Bond casting balls at the shoot.

:-)

I remembered that youtube has a lot of stuff, so here's the scene. Just forward to about 4:00 in the video and ignore the weird subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JButKQI4d7I

York's rifle has what looks like a Springfield lock as do others, but there are a good number of civilian ML locks from the mid-to late 1800s, and I didn't notice any Trapdoors. You can also see why Noah Beery, Jr lost the match, he's got a wicked flinch ;)

[Shooter]

Most of the old mountain rifles had a ramrod longer than the barrel to grip when cleaning.

[barefooter175]

I just ordered the movie from amazon. I meant to do so for over a year. This discussion helped me to decide to do it now.

James

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Rifle makers have a problem with the rod channel. The rod has to be at least barrel length so the shooter still has a bit to hang on to when loading. So in order for that barrel length rod to be complety inserted muzzle flush the chanel has to be bored into the lock area. If this is for a wood rod that channel is going to take out alot of wood in a high stress area where there are already 3 large screws and other assorted pin or screw holes.
Far better to short bore the channel and hae a ramrod sticking out a bit. Plus when you need to rapid reload running down a path it is far easier to remove a long rod just by feel than trying to get a short one out that is muzzle flush.
Mike in Peru

[northmn]

Most rifles are made with the hole drilled to the breech, but many originals had a tapered rod such that the part in the rifle may have been closer to 1/4 inch diameter. May also make the rod handier to be a little longer than the barrel as the smaller diameter would be easier to seat a ball with if more of a grip is offered. Back then ramrods were split out with a froe and rounded to fit, not made on a doweling machine that can cross grain them so much as today.

DP

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Hollywood and the lore & legend of Muzzleloading BP makes some rods overlong. You can still prowl the thick places with a inch or so extra sticking out, but it does take more alertness.

Now if you look at Currier & Ives prints from the 1850s & 1860s you can occasionally see a WIPING STICK much longer than a ramrod that was commonly carried both in hand by hunters afoot and on horseback by hunters then and earlier. There are historical references to such. C & I had not yet romanticized/fantasized muzzleloading as it was still current and would have made them look stupid because people knew different.

Hollywood was different with their license to ENTERTAIN the public, as was Walt Disney 25 - 30 years after the 1939 YORK movie. Muzzleloading was largely forgotten by the 30's. With historians and skilled folks inputting info you didn't see such fantasy long rods in " Last of the Mohicans" much more recently.

Sorry Mike, but a short bored rod channel is the sorriest of long rifle workmanship that would not have got an apprentice's work past his master's eye. And Lehman's factory would not have passed it either.

For running down a path? Sure Lewis Wetzel was renowned for the trick, but the author Allan Eckert indicates that few could do it and even one of "Death Winds" (Wetzel's) Indian fighting brothers could not master the technique.

BvT

[FL-Flinter]

a short bored rod channel is the sorriest of long rifle workmanship
BvT

I have to agree with the Baron not only asthetics but also on function. Anything sticking past the muzzle has the potential to cause problems, not just getting hooked on brush but also reducing accuracy. When the projectile clears the muzzle, anything within proximity of the muzzle blast zone produces a cause and effect relationship. Depending on how the blast of high pressure gas interacts with whatever is sticking beyond the muzzle depends on how much effect it will cause on the projectile flight. Does one not find it interesting and informative that a rifle throwing a "flier" every few shots suddenly stops doing so when shot w/o the RR in it? Why? Answer is simple, RR sticking past the muzzle causes the muzzle blast flowing over & around the RR to deflect the projectile from its nominal flight path. I have had numerous clients bring guns in complaining about barrel related accuracy problems only to find out it was nothing more than the RR causing the problems.

Good design and workmanship is paramount, the amount of material removed from the breech area should not be a concern if the breech is properly fitted as the recoil force is parallel to the bore. Obviously the style of gun will play a roll in the design of said breech area as some designs lend themselves well to allowing sufficient room for the RR, others do not and that may be a matter of poor engineering, lack of foresight or lack of acceptable parts. One cannot effectively armchair analyze any particular period gun without knowing all the details of the circumstances but one can point to plenty of examples of originals displaying all the characteristics of foresight, engineering and workmanship.

If such is a matter of function as opposed to historical correctness (HC), it's not out of the realm of reason to have more than one RR for a gun. For those concerned with HC, I supply my clients with one RR for display purposes and another dual-ended one for field use, simple enough to screw an extension/handle in if needed for wiping, if not it stays in the bag out of the way. Consider also, how many times do you need to wipe all the way to the breech in a hunting situation? If you're answer is "a lot" then you need to either work on the fouling problems you have or tell me where you're getting all that shooting in so I know where the hunting is that good. If the load and gun are right, you shouldn't be getting fouling issues below the carbon ring area so even if a wipe is needed in a field situation, it shouldn't require more than what the integral RR is capable of doing. Remember also that our modern times have brought about the "button jag" as opposed to the considerably longer lengths of the HC jags & tow worms - one utilizing a 2-3" long attachment no longer requires having a 2-3" longer RR to reach the breech face.

Here's some originals

Mathew Gillespi
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Original%20guns/MathewGillespi.jpg

Joseph Bogle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Original%20guns/Josephbogle.jpg

George Foltz
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Original%20guns/GeorgeFoltz.jpg

Wiley Higgins
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Original%20guns/WileyHigginsgamecock.jpg

[waksupi]

I can't think of any originals I have looked at, having the ramrod sticking out past the muzzle. Hollywood failed again.
When you find a ramrod with a thinly tapered end, that generally means the front lock bolt interfered, and the ramrod was tapered to clear the screw. Sometimes this is accompanied by a notch being filed in the lock bolt to make more clearance in the web.

[mooman76]

I have an old original one or at least it was at one time. It has signs of work, repair and/or modification over the years which could be expected if it get much use. It's probably 150 years old. The ramrod does not stick out passed the barrel. Don't know if it's original or not but I can say it very old and I believe made of hickory. It had the nipple missing and a bolt that holds the lock in too. I need to get a better replacement bolt and nipple as I just put in what I could find so I could fire it. I usually carry a long rod anymore when I shoot but I just stick it in the barrel and keep it removed once I start loading and shooting.

[northmn]

There is a chance that where one sees those sticking out that they may ahve been replacements that hit the forward lock screw and were not tapered to go farther. Ram rods were a very common replacement part of the gun. It was said that the mountain men commonly carried their spare in the bore of the gun when traveling as some ares of the west did not provide any material to replace one. Time spent making one would be a problem also.

DP

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Full Length = the infamous "Wiping Sticks" you read about.

Rich

[Shooter]

I have seen original M/L rifles with ramrod with saw marks where the ramrd was cut flush with the muzzle.
They looked better over the fire place.

[northmn]

I have seen original M/L rifles with ramrod with saw marks where the ramrd was cut flush with the muzzle.
They looked better over the fire place.

I was kind of thinking that myself. I do not disagree about the accuracy thing and use ramrods that are pretty flush with the muzzle, but what was used back when can vary about as much ast he number of users. I do like the 4" screw in extension for out in the brush. I do not leave the screw in jag on the end of the ramrod. I also drill the holes slightly deeper at the breech.

DP