I just ate some humble pie with a tiny bit of icecream. .308 shot results.

[toddx]

Hello Professors.
I got a chance to get away for a quick shoot.
This is my SECOND attempt at shooting DIY Cast Boolits.

I first shot the NON GC rounds.
178gr actual made from a Lee 185 gr mould #90371
24 gr 3031
2.710 col

They were all over the place. 18 or more inches ctc.
.309
1529 1614 1557 1602 1581 1588 1564 1543 1581
.311
1654 1602 1648 1658 1660 1656
I suspect they were shot too fast to be accurate. Notice the fps difference with same powder but different sizing.

After being humbled by such poor results I shot the gas checked rounds.
.309 Gas checked.
28gr 3031
2.710
1834 1804 1857 1880 1844
These shots made the 5/8 oto group at 48 yards. ( see pic) I shot basically a 5/8 hole in the board.
next I shot the
.311 Gas checked
28 gr 3031
2.710
1875 1929 1862 1891 1864
This group was 2.75 in ctc.

I went back to the .309 gc and shot ( after a decent cleaning)
1883 1877 1883 1854 1859
1 1/8 ctc. 4 out of 5 were 3/4 see pic.

I cleaned the barrel a little and then went back to the .311 gc
1915 1910 1972 1915 1910
These shots gave me 1 1/8 at 48 yards.

As you can see the gas checked ammo shot pretty good and the 10 .309 shots out performed the .311. I want to clean the barrel on a more exact interval when shooting so the next set of bullets has the same chances of accuracy.
I just as soon load with the .309 so the case mouth thing is less of an issue but will try one more test with .309 and .311.

The .311 ammo definetley had me working harder to close the bolt. A fair amount of friction. I guess I got to figure the bullet being another .001 thicker with the ALox on them possibly more?
Also ---What do gas checks do when fired? Do they stay on or fly off? Curious.
Appreciate any thoughts on how to improve my game?

[skeet1]

toddx,
The gas check will normally stay on the bullet. What I believe is the key to a gas checks success is they protect the base of the bullet and they make a better seal keeping hot gases from going past the bullet.

Ken

[Echo]

Well - maybe Assistant, non-tenured.

Last first - GC's were originally figured to fall off after firing, I think, but some find they stay on, some find they fall off, and I have never found them falling off the few times I have checked. YMMV...

But those are some pretty good groups - I would opine that .309 is the go-to load. Do you have a 310 sizer? And did you mike the boolits after sizing, and after seating (just to ensure they haven't been swaged down by the seating process).

I'm sure others will have more eloquent observations. There are some tenured guys here, and I bow to their opinions.

[Maven]

toddx, If you'd like to try those non-GC'ed CB's again, try a pistol/shotgun powder. 7.0 - 8.5gr. Alliant Unique or 8.5 - 9.5gr. Alliant Blue Dot would be my recommendations. I think the results will please you.

[toddx]

toddx, If you'd like to try those non-GC'ed CB's again, try a pistol/shotgun powder. 7.0 - 8.5gr. Alliant Unique or 8.5 - 9.5gr. Alliant Blue Dot would be my recommendations. I think the results will please you.

I used some Trail Boss on my first try but had better groups with 5744 that time. I am about out of 5744 and TB is expensive. I have heard about the red green blue dots but have not tried them.
Thanks
t

[405]

toddx,
I'll take your results at face value because what you showed is what I've found time and again and again. Thanks for posting those results! The simplest answer is usually the right answer. At times on this forum it's almost blasphemy to suggest that gas checks actually can make a huge difference. The other is that in most modern chambers and bores there may be nothing to gain by sizing more than about .001" larger than groove diameter and in your case you showed that it can be very counter-productive.

Gas checks, if properly seated, should stay on- period. Coming off after leaving the muzzle can lead to nothing but poorer accuracy.

If they're loose and prone to coming off, particularly in a revolver shooting light loads, the result can be.... leaving a gas check in the bore with one shot then shooting it out with the next shot. Lovely!

Another problem with loose gas checks is that in those cartridges where the bullet base is seated below the junction of the shoulder and neck the gas check can come off inside the case.... Another lovely thought. And yet another problem associated with a loose gas check is that it can kill a chronograph.

[runfiverun]

why are you cleaning the bbl?

if you are changing lube and trying a new one then i'd clean and shoot fouling shots to get the new lube down the bbl.
but cleaning from one group to the next can be actually skewing your results, from accuracy to velocity.
i find it takes from 7 to 11 shots to get lube to the end of a bbl in a uniform manner.
if there is leading you need to clean out, then something is wrong and needs to be addressed.

[toddx]

why are you cleaning the bbl?

if you are changing lube and trying a new one then i'd clean and shoot fouling shots to get the new lube down the bbl.
but cleaning from one group to the next can be actually skewing your results, from accuracy to velocity.
i find it takes from 7 to 11 shots to get lube to the end of a bbl in a uniform manner.
if there is leading you need to clean out, then something is wrong and needs to be addressed.

I thought cleaning it would help things. The groups after a clean were the best..maybe by chance. I don't know man, I see through a glass darkly on all this but it sure is fun.
So you think it OK to shoot a rifle with CB's 30-40 times without a cleaning? I have talked to many who do not clean. ?

[toddx]

i shot 700 rds through the krag this fall. if its not leading why clean the bore is the way i look at it.

I guess my problem is knowing if I have definitive leading?

[toddx]

you should be able to see it if your leading much if any.

I can not see anything in my barrel. When I ran a swab today I saw a couple salt grain sized shiny dots that seemed like lead.
Last time I shot a had dozens of these salt and pepper sized lead particles on my swabs.
Is this a concern?

[HangFireW8]

I always find a few lead flakes when I clean after shooting cast boolits. The real questions are, are there rough spots in the bore, does patch after patch come out looking like pencil lead, or more obviously, can I see streaks of lead in an otherwise clean bore?

Since you can't see anything, if the patches come through smoothly, you're good.

[toddx]

I always find a few lead flakes when I clean after shooting cast boolits. The real questions are, are there rough spots in the bore, does patch after patch come out looking like pencil lead, or more obviously, can I see streaks of lead in an otherwise clean bore?

Since you can't see anything, if the patches come through smoothly, you're good.

Hang, Thanks for those guidelines. A respected shooting friend of mine said you need special equipment to see the leading etc.
I am quite sure I don't have leading. I am quite sure this is a great site. I am quite sure I am thankful for your response.

[454PB]

shooting gas checked boolits through a leaded barrel will remove the leading.

[jhalcott]

The OLD Lyman checks were designed to "slip on" and the Hornady checks are designed to "crimp on". The "slip" works both ways, on and off! I have shot cast bullets into (and thru!) 5 gallon buckets of sand and recovered them with the GC's intact. Same thing with bundles of phone books. I shot thru a gallon jug of water into 25 inches of wet paper/phone book bundles. Penetration, depending on boolit weight and caliber, could exceed 19" and the GC's were STILL on them. I have some Lyman.45 cal slip on checks that I use on 45-70 boolits. THEY are rarely on the bullets I recover.

[garandsrus]

Toddx,

If you are not getting leading, you can shoot hundreds of rounds without cleaning the barrel. If your groups don't open up over time, you are not getting leading.

Leading will commonly show up as groups that are not as good as they should be on the target. I am talking about 2 to 3 times what the good group is.

John

[Buckshot]

............I shot my 1903A1 quite often (went to the range EVERY Tuesday) and it never leaded. I shot pretty much the same load all the time, 311284 sized .310" over 24.0grs H4198 and dacron. The boolits were schwozzled around in muchly thinned LA. When dry they'd be put up in sealed containers. To be loaded they were lube-sized and the lube in the grooves was Javalina.

The only time I really cleaned a rifle's barrel was if I knew I wasn't going to be shooting it for some time, or after some experimental loads checking for leading. So that Springfield probably had maybe 600 rounds through it since the last cleaning. A whole lot, anyway. So one Tuesday it began to throw shots, and ones that looked good when they left flew wide. At home I put it in the cleaning cradle, pulled the bolt and started with a bristle brush.

I was holding the stock in one hand while kind of mindlessly pushing and pulling the rod back and forth, and a couple times I thought I felt something odd. Not anything in the barrel, but a clunk. More sensed then anything else. Hmmm, everything looked good. Didn't see anything untoward, so dipped the brush again and more back and forth. There it was again. I stopped and got to really checking. Come to find out the action screws were loose enough to sometimes pull the barreled action back with a clunk in the stock. Once fully back it'd take 3-4 pushes forward to have it finaly clunk forward! The thing didn't need cleaning but simply some bit of intelligent checking of things once in awile :groner:

.................Buckshot

[Doc Highwall]

toddx, I would suggest as Echo about trying a .310" die. I am sizing my bullets .310" and my go to powder is AA5744.

[runfiverun]

lead will show up readily on red.
a rag at the end of the bbl ,or cut patches out that are red.
a dry patch to push out powder fouling once in a while is bout all i use.
you'll know if you get leading, and the cleaning is a pain.