Nice article by Duke BUT...

[Patrick L]

In the current issue of Handloader, Mike Venturino did a nice article on all of the pistol cartridges that have been US military issue since the evolution of cartridges, say about 140 years or so. It was well written and very informative, as are all of Duke's articles.

But I think he missed one. The .38 Special was also pressed into military service, wasn't it? It was my understanding that lots of aviators were issued .38 revolvers during WWII (S&W Victory Model,) and also various military law enforcement types were as well long after that. One of my most cherished old relics is my father's copy of the "Pistols and Revolvers" field manual he brought home from his Army service in the mid 50's, and there are chapters on the 1911/1911A1, the Model 1917 revolvers, and .38 Special revolvers. An early 70s era copy of the same manual I picked up at an Army Navy store dispensed with the 1917s but the .38s were in that one too.

Duke, was this an oversight or did you make a concious decision not to include this caliber? I'm not being critical, I still think you're one of the best writers out there. I'm just curious.

[Recluse]

The U.S. Air Force continued to issue .38 Special revolvers to their aircrews up to and beyond Vietnam. I remember our SPs (Security Police) carrying them in the 70's and 80's.

:coffee:

[waksupi]

Was the .38 Special developed by the military? Maybe that is the hitch.

[MtGun44]

My Dad was a Naval Aviator and was issued a Victory Model S&W .38 Spl in WW2.
They carried tracers, more for signalling than for self defense.

Bill

[Ilwil]

.38 special was the secondary issue pistol round from at least WWII until 1985 when the 9mm replaced it and .45 acp. I was an MP Investigator, later a CID agent; we carried 2" S&W Model 10s. Air crew, MP K-9 handlers, and women were among those who carried the .38.
Most of my .38 brass is military, with arsenal head stamps.

[beagle]

We had .38 Special revolvers in the Apache Battalion in the 101st up until 1989 when I retired. S&Ws, a few new Ruger DAs and a load of old parkerized Colts. I had an old Colt and it never failed me and was easier to keep from rusting under field conditions than were the S & Ws. The Rugers were the worst of the lot and had to be kept meticulously clean or dust would cause them to be completely inoperable.

The Coltsbnever failed./beagle

[redneckdan]

I read through the issue yesterday. I was kind of disappointed in one of the articles. The writer showed a lack of understanding of basic mechanical design principles.


It was kind of cool to see a 1911 love fest issue.

[cajun shooter]

I know for a fact as I secured some of that ball ammo for myself back in 1966. I was looking at it as a GI bonus check. The pilots carried the revolvers in shoulder rigs.

[longhorn]

Beagle--that's really interesting; the only Security Six I've owned was a stainless, but never hiccuped. Any idea why the Rugers weren't reliable? Not doubting, just wondering.

[runfiverun]

kind of cool about the 1911?
any gun mag over the last 5 years has been a 1911 love fest.
you probably missed the article, flipping past the 30 or so ar-15 articles.
ditto on getting the s&w, i was assigned one and qualified with it but rarely carried it.
i don't recall seeing a ruger, they were most likely after my time, i don't think the security six was being sold in big numbers [or even available ,thinking ] then either.

[405]

Beagle--that's really interesting; the only Security Six I've owned was a stainless, but never hiccuped. Any idea why the Rugers weren't reliable? Not doubting, just wondering.

Some of us were issued the Ruger Security Six SS revolvers during one "cost saving" low bid episode. Until then the SW 19 was standard. It took only one excursion into the low bid arena to convince the big cheese it probably wasn't the wisest move. After that relatively small bid lot of maybe 100-200 Rugers the bosses got religion and went with the SW 66 for the remainder of the DA revolver era. Over time the SW 19s and 66s were phased out in favor of the standard semi-auto- with most opting for the Glock. I think all the Rugers were phased out much sooner.

The problem with those Security Sixes was that the cylinder to forcing cone gap was way too tight and would jam the cylinder after a few rounds depending on the type of ammo. Ruger was notified and Ruger provided an armorer's workshop and tools necessary for all agencies that had that model. Our armorer took in all the issued Security Sixes in rotation and in about a year had them all re-gapped.

During that time early/mid 70s IIRC, the Security Six gained the nickname within the agency as the "Clawhammer".

[singleshot]

When I came into the military in 1988 I qualified with a 38 sp revolver. No longer used, but I'm just sayin'....

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I guess duke missed out on the ones that went to the Philippines in 1898...

Rich

[MtGun44]

IIRC the 1898 Phillipines guns were Colts in .38 Colt, not .38 Spl.

Bill

[Bret4207]

kind of cool about the 1911?
any gun mag over the last 5 years has been a 1911 love fest.
you probably missed the article, flipping past the 30 or so ar-15 articles.


HAR!!! Ain't that the truth! :D:D:D

[Bret4207]

Hey guys, FWIW, Julian Hatcher, O'Connor, Page, even the Sainted Elmer and Townsend Whelen missed the boat a time or two. Don't be too hard on ol' Mikey, at least he's not afraid to mingle with the unwashed masses. That'd be us BTW!

[Patrick L]

I want to make it perfectly clear that the intent of my post was NOT to be hard on Mike, just to inquire as to why he left that one out.

Ihaho Sharpshooter, he DID mention the one that went to the Philippines, that was the .38 Long Colt.

[Hurricane]

I read the Handloader article and it was clear to me that Mike was talking about reloading for military pistols, as in semi-auto pistols. Things he was talking about such as picking a round nose bullet in order to feed correctly and a hard bullet to feed better do not apply to revolvers that can easily use any nose profile and any hardness for the bullet. Revolvers were not in the scope of his article.

[Mike Venturino]

I Left it out because it wasn't actually "standard" as in standard issue to U.S. Army infantry crew served weapons teams or cavalrymen. In WW2 it was issued to naval aviators. But the article was only about U.S. Army. I also didn't cover .32 ACP and .380 Auto as issued to general officers upon getting their first star.

Also that was a column and you're limited to about 1000 words so you have to pick a topic and be specific.

Idaho Sharpshooter: .38 Special wasn't introduced until 1899.

Morning all, off to a gun show so I hope I either find something great or bring all my money home again.

Mike V.

[Mike Venturino]

Hurricane: you're talking about a feature in a previous issue. These guys are discussing a column in the brand new issue.

Thanks
MLV

[Dan Cash]

I read through the issue yesterday. I was kind of disappointed in one of the articles. The writer showed a lack of understanding of basic mechanical design principles.


It was kind of cool to see a 1911 love fest issue.

I resigned from the readership some years ago fro the same reason. I wrote the editor to point out the errors and the hazzard presented by the misinformation. The response I got was that I was just an "armchair amature," while they were professionals.

[Patrick L]

Mike,

That's good enough for me!

Keep up the good work! I also liked the Casting Basics article in the same issue. Even though I've been a caster for over 20+ years, I always like to see how other people do things to see if there's anything I could do differently that would make it easier, faster, safer, etc.

[sundog]

I was in Army Aviation - retired in 94. Our air crews were issued .38 Spl. In our battalion we had Ruger and either Colt or S&W (don't remember). We kept these until they were traded out for the M9. The first time we did range qualification on the M9 we had to go out on the local economy for 9mm ammo, as there was none available in the inventory. I've been reusing the brass for all this time!

[markinalpine]

Helicopter pilots I served with in the 70's told me they used revolvers because they didn't want the possibility of shells ejected from semi-auto pistols jamming up any of the linkages in their aircraft.
Mark [smilie=s:

[Rocky Raab]

Hey guys, Mike did title the piece "U.S. Army Metallic Handgun Cartridges" not "Military Handgun Cartridges."

Even I, who wore a S&W .38 Special while saving the pink young butts of Army grunts, don't feel slighted by the omission. (We carried them loaded with six tracers. We considered them to be "signal flare launchers" more than defensive handguns.)

Mike, maybe an article on aircrew guns and cartridges for the future?

[Bad Water Bill]

Mike Can you actually remember when the last time you went to a gun show and came home with the same amount you left with? I know I can not but I am sure I don't make as many shows as you.:wink:

[Mike Venturino]

That fellow was right. I didn't make it home from the show with the same money taken. I found a really nice 1911 Boyt holster dated '42, a Weaver 330 scope in fine shape, a box of LC 62 national match '06, a box of German military 8mm dated in the '30s (can't remember exact date right now) and a couple of good books.

Rocky: I think that article idea is a good one but I have none of the handguns. I think that one would be a good idea for YOU and you have the experience to back it up. That's one I'd like to read myself.

Nite all,
Mike V.

[Larry Gibson]

Mike

If you are planning on shooting (assuming it is in good condition) any of the '30ish German 8mm you picked up I would really like to pressure test 5 rounds of it with the M43 Oehler?

Larry Gibson

[Mike Venturino]

Larry: That would be fine. This might be better and save you some effort. My friend is ballistician at Hornady and he's already pressure tested some WW2 8mm loads for me. I have that data around here if I can remember to post it. (Also did British, Russian, and US stuff too.)

Mike

[NoDakJak]

I spent ten years in Naval Aviation beginning in 1957. During that time our pilots carried the Victory Model S&W. Before 1960 can't recall seeing an enlisted man other than the Gangway Watch carrying a handgun. I transferred to NAS Mirimar in 1960 and the Flight Line Guards carried the 1911 until about September. At that time a Lt. that was standing Officer of the Watch thought that he was a bad ass decided that he would catch a guard unawares and make an example of him. Unhappily for him he went up against a real ******. The guard saw him coming and laid in wait behind the Lineshack. When the Lt. stuck his head around the corner he found the muzzle of that 1911 against his temple. That was when Joe released the slide and ordered him to spreadeagle on the ground. The next day we were disarmed. Joe was exonorated and the Lt. was transferred out of the Squadron a few hours later. After that the only people carring weapons was the Officer of the Watch and the Petty Officer of the Watch. I carried a Victory model off and on for the next seven years. Our ammo was 130 grain tracer. Some of the cases had crimped primer pockets At one time I had six or seven hundred of the cases. Most of the brass was average and is long ago worn out but the cases that was stamped RA-62 is excellent and I am still loading a couple hundred of them.
When I switched to the Air Force in 1967 I was surprised to see the pilots an Air Police were carrying the S&W Model 15. In 1969 they were getting to close down Itazuke AFB and I went on temporary duty to the small arms section as assistant instructor and small arms repairman. My buddy and I overhauled every M1 and M2 carbine on the island and brought them up to serviceable standards. Then the head unstructor unlocked another chest and lo and behold, there was 100 Victort Model S&Ws that were held in war reserve. We managed to get most of them into serviceable condition. It was just about this time that we recieved our first shipment of M-16s. Several weeks later we were ordered to send all the carbines and Victory Models to the base welding shop where they were torched into several pieces and dumped into the ocean. Sheer Stupidity!!!! Neil

[Larry Gibson]

Larry: That would be fine. This might be better and save you some effort. My friend is ballistician at Hornady and he's already pressure tested some WW2 8mm loads for me. I have that data around here if I can remember to post it. (Also did British, Russian, and US stuff too.)

Mike

Mike

I'd sure like that information when you find it. Might have to make a run to Montana one of these days.......

Larry Gibson

[AZ-Stew]

Interesting thread. Enjoyable read.

I had always thought that some pilots carried model 12 (aluminum frame model 10, for all intents and purposes) Smiths. I guess not, as no one has mentioned them. I have some GI .38 Spl brass, as well, but don't remember where I got it. I don't think any of it was loaded when I got it.

I'd like to spend a summer going to Montana gun shows. I read so many things about the wonderful firearms people have found at those shows. In AZ, we're lucky to see anything out of the ordinary. The older military rifles are usually beaters. I've gotten some nice modern firearms from our local shows, but no 1800s lever guns or handguns. I did see a couple of revolvers that appeared to be genuine, original Colt Walkers at a show a couple of years ago, but they weren't for sale.

I'm a bit behind in my reading. I have a magazine stack that I read on a first in, first out basis. The latest issue of Handloader is in the queue behind the reminder of an American Rifleman, a Wisconsin Wildlife and a Midway ad. I'll get to it in a few days. I'm looking forward to it.

By the way, if any of you get America's First Freedom as your NRA magazine, look on the last page of the March issue. In the middle of the left column is a short piece I wrote on my memories of some NRA Annual Meetings. I hope it brings a smile.

Regards,

Stew

[NoDakJak]

Memory may be serving me wrong but I seem to remember reading an article in the American Rifleman may years ago that talked about an aluminum frame 38 that was made for the Air Force. I think that it also said that they did not work out and were take out of service and destroyed. Another rare 38 Spcl revolver that was produced for the military was the Colt Commando. I don't know if these were ever actually issued to the troops or not. The only one that I have seen is now in my collection and it doesn't have any military markings. Maybe the OSS/CIA sucked up most of them. I read somewhere that some were issued to Civilian Guards for Plant and Factory Security. My specimen had certainly seen extensive use and was fairly well worn out when I purchased it. Hope this info helps. Neil

[NoDakJak]

This thred intrigued me enough that I used the yahoo search for some info. Found some very interesting information.
Premiere Firearms Auction listed a S&W M-13 Aircrewman for sale. Value $2,500 to $3,000
2" Barrel Round Butt
Description:Pre Model 12 Airweight revolver produced on govt contract for the U.S. Air Force who {Who designated it the Model 13 Aircrewman} and requested that the revolvers be stamped M13. The revolvers were intended for use by flight crews as survival weapons in the event ov=f an emergency. The Model was rjected in 1960 because of problems with the aluminu cylinder and most were destroyed by the government. Top of the frame is marked
"Revlver, Lightweight, M13".Backstrap markings are "Property of U.S.Air Force> Produced from 1953 to 1954 with aluminum cylinderAnother article stated that the aluminum cylinder had a tendency to turn into a grenade when fired. They were produced from 1954 thru 1957 with a steel cylinder but I think that these were for the civilian market. Some specimens are valued up to $5,000 and another article stated that there are more fakes on the market than genuine articles. Hmmm!! Methinks that a Airweight, 2" 38 Special is certainly a very odd choice for an Aircrew Survival Weapon. Thaat was probably "Blarney" and was a coverup for a weapon that was for issue to security agencies.
Colt Commando
Charles W. Pate has proven to be an excellent reasearcher and has written a book titled: U.S. Handguns of WW II: The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers:. I am not sure but believe it is available through the NRA Bookstore. He also wrote an excellent article in the March/April copy of "Man at Arms" that is titled "The WWII Colt Commando". He states that 48,611 were purchased by the government during WWII. As I surmised, most of the went to the" Defense Supply Corporation". He states that the DSC provided arms for defense guards, Police Departments and various Government agencies. He states that military use of this model was not extensive.
Another article states that a little more than 16,000 were issued to the military with 3,000 of these having two inch barrels and called the Commando Junior. A further article states that most of the Commandos went through a rebuild program at the end of the war and were then issued to the Army. Another several thousand of them of them came out of rebuild with two inch barrels. I seem to recall some of these in the surplus firearms ads in the late fifties or early sixties.
The Commando was a cheapened version of the "Official Police" model just as the Victory Model was a cheapened version of the "Military and Police" model that became the Model 10.
Neil.

[NoDakJak]

Throughout WWII Harrington & Richardson produced their large frame revolver chambered for 38 S&W. Somewhere I have one of their ads stating that thousands of these were produced for use by plant guards. These were named the "Defender" and were made up to at least the early fifties. A similar model was produced in 32 S&W for the London Police during the war and were named the Bobby" Model.
I don't believe that I would want to carry a Defender asa full time duty gun but it would probably be excellent for a security guard. Most were probably never fired during their life time.
Neil

[9.3X62AL]

ND Jak--

My little sister owns a Colt Commando Model 4" in 38 Special. It was issued to our grandmother for her work as a civilian guard at Norton Air Materiel Depot during WWII, later a MAC base during Viet Nam and known as Norton AFB. Location was San Bernardino, CA. The revolver is in NRA VG condition, and Kris shoots it with wadcutters a couple times per year. It is mechanically perfect.

[nanuk]

Mike, when did you pick up the nickname "Duke"?

[Recluse]

Another rare 38 Spcl revolver that was produced for the military was the Colt Commando. I don't know if these were ever actually issued to the troops or not. The only one that I have seen is now in my collection and it doesn't have any military markings. Maybe the OSS/CIA sucked up most of them. I read somewhere that some were issued to Civilian Guards for Plant and Factory Security. Neil


ND Jak--

My little sister owns a Colt Commando Model 4" in 38 Special. It was issued to our grandmother for her work as a civilian guard at Norton Air Materiel Depot during WWII, later a MAC base during Viet Nam and known as Norton AFB. Location was San Bernardino, CA. The revolver is in NRA VG condition, and Kris shoots it with wadcutters a couple times per year. It is mechanically perfect.

I saw my first and only Colt Commando courtesy of a security guard who worked at the Pantex plant outside of Amarillo, Texas. Those guards were all civilian, but I'd put them up against just about any military SP/MP force or civilian police agency I ever dealt with.

Of course, when your business (Pantex) was the assembly (and later, disassembly) of nuclear warheads, you'd expect security to be somewhat tight. :)

Those boys could flat shoot, and they were in remarkable physical shape. Serious, serious private security contract guys.

Here's a little bit about Pantex-- http://www.pantex.com/

:coffee: