Chamber Shearing

[BulletFactory]

I have been getting some shearing from the bullets as they enter the chamber to the point that the buildup will keep the gun from going into battery. The bore slugs at .4007 in two places, and .4011 in another. I measured one after it was sized in three places, and got .4032, .4034. and 4029. The shearing is not coming from the case mouth, its from the barrel, I checked this closely with a magnifying glass. I pulled a bullet from a loaded case and got measurements of .4005, .4007 and .4014. I know that the rounds are supposed to be loaded .002 over bore, but if I go bigger, I get this shearing buildup after only a half dozen rounds or so. I know that a bullet that is too small will lead. I've been having a LOT of leading. My BHN is at 8.7. I don't think this is hard enough, because the feed ramp is deforming the noses of the bullets. I have been using BAC from white label as a pan lube. The laeding starts an inch or so from where the rifling starts, and is hardest to remove closest to the rifling.

[BulletFactory]

The OAL is 1.120".

[KYCaster]

I'm not sure what you mean by "shearing". I ass-U-me you mean you're getting a build up of fouling in the chamber. Is that right? Does the fouling interfere with chambering? What kind of gun?

Since your pulled bullet is smaller than you're sizing to, it looks like case is sizing your boolit. Give us some information about your loading procedure. Brand of dies....how are you belling the case mouth....seat/crimp together or separately...Lee Factory Crimp Die?

Need a little more info...:popcorn:

Jerry

[leftiye]

Caliber? Gun?

[BulletFactory]

.40 sa xd

[BulletFactory]

There is a buildup of these little lead rings that keep the gun from going into battery after 5 or 6 shots. The bullet metal is being sheared off as they are chambered in the gun. I'm using Lee dies, with a custom expander in the FCD. I seat and crimp in seperate operations. I have removed the outer ring in the FCD because it was changing the diameter of the bullets.

There is another thread with information on this problem here :

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=108689

[thx997303]

JTknives had the same issue with cast boolits in his Glock 10mm.

His fix was to reduce the powder charge.

What powder charge are you using?

[BulletFactory]

Im using HS-6, but I haven't settled in on a charge yet. Still trying to get it in the ballpark. I blew up a barrel in this gun once already, so I'm pretty nervous about charges. I think I was looking at the wrong data a couple months ago, and although it held, I think that it eventually caught up with me cause it sheared off the tab that holds the gun to the frame. I was using a 185 grain round then, and now its only 167.5, and I'm supposed to put MORE powder behind it ? That makes me really really nervous.

Today I fired 25 loaded at 7.5 grains. The gun was loud, really loud, and had a bit more recoil than the PDX-1 Winchester JHP's that I carry. The JHPs are 165s.

[BulletFactory]

I posted this at 11:01pm, but on the post it shows 8:01pm?

[KYCaster]

I posted this at 11:01pm, but on the post it shows 8:01pm?



Go to the tool bar at the top of the page. Find "User CP" and set your time zone.

Jerry

[Gelandangan]

1 picture worth 1000000 words

[lwknight]

I get a feeling that the forcing cone is too sharp or non existant.
Polishing with a cleaning brush that has steel wool wrapped around it and jewelers rouge in a drill might help.

[chris in va]

Perhaps it's time for this...

http://www.storm-lake.com/products/barrel#top


I get a feeling that the forcing cone is too sharp or non existant.

He doesn't have a revolver, it's an XD 40.

[KYCaster]

There is a buildup of these little lead rings that keep the gun from going into battery after 5 or 6 shots. The bullet metal is being sheared off as they are chambered in the gun. I'm using Lee dies, with a custom expander in the FCD. I seat and crimp in seperate operations. I have removed the outer ring in the FCD because it was changing the diameter of the bullets.

There is another thread with information on this problem here :

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=108689



The lead ring in the chamber is usually due to lead scraped off the bullet by the case mouth.

Possible causes...not enough flare on the case mouth, improperly adjusted seat/crimp die (case mouth being crimped while bullet is being pushed into the case), crimp die ID smaller than bullet OD (die pushes bullet deeper into case while crimp is being applied).

I don't know what you mean by "custom expander in the FCD". Case mouth flare should be done either before or during powder drop.

Before you get too frustrated, take a break....go out on the back porch and relax for a little while..................and while you're out there throw that Lee FCD just as far as you can!!!

Now go back inside and order a Lyman M die (or powder-thru expander if you're using a progressive press) and an RCBS taper crimp die (Lee taper crimp will work but I prefer the angle of the RCBS crimp).

Start from square one and adjust all the dies in your press, paying particular attention to the case mouth flare (too much is better than not enough), bullet seating (crimp shoulder should just remove the case mouth flare when seating is complete) and crimp (remove the barrel from your gun and use it as a gauge...round should drop into chamber with no resistance.......no more, no less).

Sounds to me like you have too many things going wrong.

Jerry


BTW....lighter bullet needs more powder to reach same velocity as heavier bullet.

[Bulltipper]

I think you got it Jerry...

[BulletFactory]

Sounds to me like you have too many things going wrong.




Aint that the truth.

Anyways, I know that the case mouth isn't causing the shearing, I checked the rounds closely with a magnifying glass. The shearing into the lead is definitely from the front to rear. I had once had some issues with the case mouth shearing, so I check this carefully. I use a turret press, and flare, seat, powder, and crimp in different operations. The custom expander die I had made to replace the powder through expander from Lee worked well with water dropped bullets, but not with this softer alloy. With my old barrel, I had the leading just about beat when using softer lead, although it was at 11.5 BHN instead of the 8.7 that I have now. I'm trying to figure out how to get back up to 12 BHN now, but I'm not sure how. I'm in the process of making a chart of different hardnesses through heat treating at different temperatures. I've only been at that for 5 days, and the hardness is still increasing, so I'm not done with that yet.

[BulletFactory]

So far in my testing, at 300*F, and 325*F, the BHN stayed the same, but at 350*F, it went right past the 11.5 I was looking for, and is currently at 15.4.

If I water drop this stuff from the lead pot, it goes to 29.9 BHN. I'm starting at 8.7

[BulletFactory]

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/shear.jpg

[Bret4207]

Is you brass trimmed to a uniform length? If so, it appears to me the boolit design you have and chamber cut are not compatible at present. I'm no autoloader guru, in fact I don't know exactly what a XD is, but from the picture you posted it looks like slightly deeper seating might help- maybe.

[44man]

I hate to be a party pooper but that lead IS TOO SOFT FOR THE PRESSURE! It is turning into a putty ball before leaving the case.
How in the world do you start with 8.7 BHN and go to 29.9 with water dropping? Something is not right! :holysheep

[white eagle]

I am with Bret on this one
I have a design similar to that and f I get past the lead shoulder
the boolits chamber just fine
try seating them deeper and watch for a lead ring around the case mouth

[Calamity Jake]

Take it to a good GS and let him throat it, problem solved.

Or as bret said, seat a little deeper.

And yes you need a harder boolit, mixing WW at 75% to lino at 25% air cooled gets you about 15 bhn in a 10 day to 2 week wait after casting. Water dropping brings bhn up to 25-26

[BulletFactory]

This alloy is screwed up alright. I got it from a gunsmith who told me that its 80% shot with some other stuff in it. It won't fill out the mold unless its at around 825*F, I added tin which didn't really help. At those temps, I'm not surprised. It also likes to make air gaps in the bullets and there's a bunch of foreign matter in there that I can't get cleaned out. I have to pour 200 rounds if I want to keep 75, and then sit there with a pocket knife to cut the junk out of the bullets so it doesn't wind up back in the pot.

[Calamity Jake]

Being 80% shot it will have a lot of antimony(the foreign matter your seeing) in it, cut it
75-80% with WW then flux the fire out of it, see if that helps

[BulletFactory]

I have 50 pounds of this stuff, and only about 6 pounds of the WW. It will be quite some time before I can get hold of a bucket of wheel weights. I can get a 5 gal bucket for around 85 or 90$ if its still there.

[44man]

This alloy is screwed up alright. I got it from a gunsmith who told me that its 80% shot with some other stuff in it. It won't fill out the mold unless its at around 825*F, I added tin which didn't really help. At those temps, I'm not surprised. It also likes to make air gaps in the bullets and there's a bunch of foreign matter in there that I can't get cleaned out. I have to pour 200 rounds if I want to keep 75, and then sit there with a pocket knife to cut the junk out of the bullets so it doesn't wind up back in the pot.
You have no idea what shot it is. Hardened shot has a lot of antimony and some arsenic but little tin but soft shot can be just that.
The temps you need to cast still suggests a soft lead that has screwed up alloy. That stuff might be better for sinkers! :bigsmyl2:

[BulletFactory]

I found an old bullet while cleaning up today so I sized it, loaded it inert, and chambered it to see if it was the bullet design, but I got the same result.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/ScannedImage-1.jpg

[BulletFactory]

You're right, I don't know much about shot, only what the guy told me when I asked what it was. He told me that it had a lot of arsenic in it so that it will ball up when it falls in the shot towers. I'm just taking his word for it. The arsenic is likely why it goes from 8.7 to 29.9 BHN when its water dropped.

[lwknight]

Bulletfactory , I have the same problem with one of my 9mm pistols. It just will not accept a cast boolit that is .356 unless I seat the boolit really deep. It is a 5906 SW and conversely my Ruger P-95 takes anything I try to feed it.
Ruger cuts a deeper and more tapered forcing cone than Smith.

My Smith and Ruger barrels both slug the same .355 and a .355 boolit will chamber in the Smith but I need .356 to go and it won't happen. Its no problem for the Ruger to use full max length .356 boolits of any common design.
As more information comes out , I am more sure that my first guess about a sharp forcing cone was probably correct.

[BulletFactory]

I didn't realize that a semi had a forcing cone. I still have a lot of learning to do.

[AZ-Stew]

I think Bret and 44man are on the track. Harder alloy and seat the boolits deeper. It looks like the boolits (slightly oversized, but nothing wrong with that) are running into the end of the chamber and having some lead scraped off. Seat the boolit 20-30 thou (.020 - .030) deeper. Reduce powder charge accordingly, as you've lost some case volume by seating deeper. It won't be much, a half grain or so, but you do need to back off. If you harden the alloy without seating deeper, you may experience failures to completely chamber the round when the boolit stops against the end of the chamber.

Add some linotype to your alloy to harden it up a bit. You might also try water dropping or oven heat treating. Your alloy will need some antimony for this to work, but the linotype will supply it. See: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=42870 for a way to do the oven heat treating inexpensively.

Regards,

Stew

[BulletFactory]

The only thing that has me hesitating about seating them deeper, is that it will cause the bullet to have to travel farther to get to the lands and grooves. Wouldn't this just complicate the leading issue?

[BulletFactory]

What about a smaller diameter?

[HammerMTB]

I load and shoot a lot of .40S&W.
Quite a few .40's have no rifling leade, and yours apparently does not. As Stew said, you are scraping that ring of lead off right at the end of the chamber, and it will stay there when you fire the round, only to be packed in by the next round chambered.
The .40 is a high intensity cartridge. Having blown one up, you can attest to that. If your alloy is less than 11 BHN, it is too soft. Higher would probably be fine, but 8-9 is definitely too little.
So, fix the lead ring scraping by seating the boolit deeper, or by throating the chamber with some rifling leade. As was said above, reduce your powder charge a bit cause you're seating deeper. You really don't need much deeper. You also have a problem with the case sizing the boolit. That is magnified by the soft boolit.
I'd suggest you deal with the case sizing the boolit by getting a larger expander die.
You may also want to keep your loads on the soft side (reduce velocities) until you fix this stuff, so you don't blow another one up. If one of those manages to fire on an unlocked chamber, you'll tear another barrel pivot off.
There are several things to fix in all this. Take your time, don't get in a rush. Once you work out the recipe, you'll get to spend lots of time shooting.

[BulletFactory]

I fired 22 rounds today, at 7.3 gr, HS-6, Wheel Weights that tested 13.4BHN, and the bullets were set back in the cases far enough to eliminate the shearing from chambering the rounds. I'm using BAC lube in both lube grooves. The die I have for sizing isn't exactly round, it meadures .4028 at the bullet seam, and .4021 across @90*. I'm getting heavy leading still, enough where the lead made this little "wire" inside the barrel.

The other problem is, There was some lead buildup in the barrel where the casemouth contacts that lip that the round rests on. I'm afraid that after a decent amount of shooting, ( more than 22 rounds,) that this is going to be quite a problem, possibly a dangerous one. If I go up to my .403 die, which measures .4025 at the bullet seam, and .4032 90* across from the seam, that this problem is going to increase, or at least persist. I have a .401 die as well, but that leaded the barrel as well. I expected that, it's just slightly above the bore diameter.

[243winxb]

Link to photos http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76356&highlight=175grn+lee+boolit%2C5.5+grains+accurate. seat+fit+camber+1.089%22
I blew up a barrel in this gun once already, so I'm pretty nervous about charges. I think I was looking at the wrong data a couple months ago, and although it held, I think that it eventually caught up with me cause it sheared off the tab that holds the gun to the frame. Size bullets of the correct hardness (BHN 16) to no larger than .001" over groove diameter. (.401") :) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/40SW_2.jpg http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/40SW_1-1.jpg

[243winxb]

I was using a 185 grain round then, and now its only 167.5, and I'm supposed to put MORE powder behind it ? That makes me really really nervous.

Today I fired 25 loaded at 7.5 grains.(HS-6) Wrong powder for cast bullets IMO. Hodgdon Universal 5.1gr with 165gr boolits, Looks better to me. :) Hodgdon's Warning > This data is intended for use in firearms with barrels that fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms that do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case-head separation or other condition that may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter and/or bystanders.

[BulletFactory]

The XD does Fully Support the cartridge.

[thx997303]

243,

Explain to me exactly HOW an oversized boolit caused the damage to those barrels please.

I've seen damage like that attributed to cast boolits several times, and it looks more like a pressure issue or slide battering to me.

Also, what kind of gun did those barrels come out of?

[BulletFactory]

Is the leading something I have to live with until I can get a different gun?

[thx997303]

It's possible fire or hand lapping the throat could fix that problem.

[lwknight]

Is the leading something I have to live with until I can get a different gun?

You can beat the leading in most guns. Some are just more persnickety than others. Some just don't want to lead at all unless you shoot under sized bullets in them.
I bet that once you isolate the problem , the fix won't be all that difficult.

[BulletFactory]

This thing is really http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/cuss.gifing me off.

I've been trying to get the lead out since October. I have become really quite good at cleaning the barrel though. Should have picked "Edison" for my screen name.

[243winxb]

243,

Explain to me exactly HOW an oversized boolit caused the damage to those barrels please.

I've seen damage like that attributed to cast boolits several times, and it looks more like a pressure issue or slide battering to me.

Also, what kind of gun did those barrels come out of? Link to thread & photos > http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76356&highlight=175grn+lee+boolit%2C5.5+grains+accurate. seat+fit+camber+1.089%22 Over pressure is my guess. Shooting bullets that were very large in diameter, not sized. Do you think a lead bullet .008" larger than the groove will increase pressure? I do. :-)

[dla]

I hate to be a party pooper but that lead IS TOO SOFT FOR THE PRESSURE! It is turning into a putty ball before leaving the case.
How in the world do you start with 8.7 BHN and go to 29.9 with water dropping? Something is not right! :holysheep

Bingo! That is 1st problem. That is way soft for .40S&W. The 2nd problem looks either (a) you aren't flaring the casemouth enough or (b) your taper crimp die is set wrong (based on the picture).

[BulletFactory]

I am now at 13.4

The shearing isn't being caused by the case. The crimp is as such that it won't swage the bullets, but it gets hold of the bullet well enough that I can do a BHN test on a loaded round. That tells me that it can hold to at least the 60 pounds the BHN test requires.

[BulletFactory]

That's what happened to mine! Now, why did that happen?

[BulletFactory]

Why would they NOT have replaced the recoil spring assembly though?

I loaded up 25 today with 7.3 gr, sized to .403 or so, and lubed with LLA only. Still had leading, but it seemed to be concentrated towards the muzzle more. Still at 13.4 BHN, should I try to go harder?

Tomorrow, I'll loas another set at 7.3, 13.4 BHN, and try the BAC lube and a coat of LLA, while sizing to .403.

I'm still having a noticable buildup of lead on the chamber area where the cartridge mouth headspaces from after only the 25 rounds I shot today.

[462]

BulletFactory,
When experimenting, make only one change per session. If you change both the lube and boolit's size, and get the result you are looking for, which of the two produced the result?

Muzzle leading is an indication of a poor lube for the job.

[truckboss]

bullet fac.,are shooting rounds like the one you have pictured?if so you do not have your cases expanded enough.i can see alot of lead at the case mouth.this should be very clean,you should be able to,with barrel out of gun,put the round in the chamber and have a little wiggle room.also try reducing your load,seat the bullet bout .020 or less out of the case, and like someone said before try one thing at a time.what others have said about bullet hardness i would have to agree on.good luck,let us know how it works.

[BulletFactory]

No, I'm shooting these now.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/My40s.jpg

[243winxb]

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/40%20SandW.pdf If you look at the chamber drawing, you will notice the minimum throat diameter is .401" Your cast/sized bullet at .403" is to fat. Causing shearing of lead as the round chambers.To fix the shearing, seat the bullets deeper, shorter COL, Or size them to .401" Your 2nd problem-BHN is to low, you need at least 16 or more, with tin if air cooled. Your 3th problem is lube. Fill the grease grooves of the bullet. :coffeecom

[thx997303]

Link to thread & photos > http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76356&highlight=175grn+lee+boolit%2C5.5+grains+accurate. seat+fit+camber+1.089%22 Over pressure is my guess. Shooting bullets that were very large in diameter, not sized. Do you think a lead bullet .008" larger than the groove will increase pressure? I do. :-)

Re-read that thread, you will notice that I posted in it.

Also note that the general consensus was that the owner of the pistol hadn't changed his recoil spring often enough.

Will oversized lead boolits break a barrel? Not if the load is worked up properly.

[243winxb]

Re-read that thread, you will notice that I posted in it.

Also note that the general consensus was that the owner of the pistol hadn't changed his recoil spring often enough.

Will oversized lead boolits break a barrel? Not if the load is worked up properly.

I think he used Berry"s plated bullet for 2 years without a problem. When he started casting, he broke 2 barrels. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. The 40 is a high pressure round, may not take much to push it over its limits?? :) This guy, bullet factory, also has broken a barrel.

[BulletFactory]

I'm sure that I had gone over limits though, I was reading the wrong chart.

However,

The breakage happened several hundred rounds AFTER I had identified the overcharging mistake.

[thx997303]

I think he used Berry"s plated bullet for 2 years without a problem. When he started casting, he broke 2 barrels. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. The 40 is a high pressure round, may not take much to push it over its limits?? :) This guy, bullet factory, also has broken a barrel.

Battering due to a weak recoil spring. Very simple.

Aside, overpressure rounds don't break off a locking lug unless shot frequently, overpowering the recoil spring, causing battering.

I don't believe for a second it's due to cast boolits.

[BulletFactory]

I didnt think it was the lead, but the loader.

[BulletFactory]

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/40%20SandW.pdf If you look at the chamber drawing, you will notice the minimum throat diameter is .401" Your cast/sized bullet at .403" is to fat. Causing shearing of lead as the round chambers.To fix the shearing, seat the bullets deeper, shorter COL, Or size them to .401" Your 2nd problem-BHN is to low, you need at least 16 or more, with tin if air cooled. Your 3th problem is lube. Fill the grease grooves of the bullet. :coffeecom

I thought I was supposed to size +.002. When I sized them at .401, I got really heavy leading throughout the length of the barrel.

I thought BAC lube from white label lubes was supposed to work in a .40.

[lwknight]

Generally speaking , I think that SWC style bullets are not exactly ideal for autoloaders anyway. I do well with hard bullets ( 15bnh or better ) in my 9mm and I think that the 40 should be about the same.
Revolvers are just so much more forgiving when everything is right.

[BulletFactory]

I know, but I don't like to carry outdated weaponry with inadequate capacity. http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/Stainless1911/hide.gif

[Bret4207]

I know, but I don't like to carry outdated weaponry with inadequate capacity. http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/Stainless1911/hide.gif

Yeah, I understand a lot of Mall Ninjas and arm chair commandos feel that way.:coffeecom


Look, after reading this whole thread I'm of the opinion that you have a combination of issues. I think the alloy you are using is suspect first off. Your Bhn readings alone sound like something unsuited to beginner cast shooting. I'd hunt around a bit and see what I could find. The big issue is that you have a barrel cut in a very cast unfriendly way. It sounds like you have a very abrupt leade that's shearing some of the boolit off on firing. Short of re-throating the barrel to obtain a gentler leade I'm not sure you'll find joy. A chamber cast would hep verify or dispute this.

[Moonie]

I know, but I don't like to carry outdated weaponry with inadequate capacity. http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/Stainless1911/hide.gif

Wow, just wow, really?

Isn't a handgun just so you can fight your way back to your TOW missile equipped golf cart anyway?

:kidding:

[462]

Hmmm... seems that not only are my guns outdated and of insuffieient capacity, but so is my way of thinking. That's okay, I ain't changing.

[BulletFactory]

Baaahahahahaha, I knew I was gonna start something with that. Heh heh heh.

[Harter66]

Bullet, I have this method that let's me shoot all sorts of bullet weights, shapes and alloys in my 9mm and has delivered decent servicable loads I'm 2 40s ,a smith and a glock.

Make a dummy with your desired boolit that will freely chamber as big as will chamber.
Start with a minimum suggested and work to the max in such increments as to allow at least 5 loads I like 10,more shooting.
Load 5 of each ,generally the 1st 1 will allow you to do dud drills and the 2nd often stove pipes(w 10 loads),by the 3rd load you should get function .
Now start shooting for groups and tune the load. In the 9s where you have a load window of 2gr that's .2gr steps around the 5th or 6th load the groups close up. Done unless you "need"to empty the brass .

That has I think saved me hours of headaches. I shoot sorted range scrap and wheel weights in everything I shoot , from a 38 to 06',9s ,357s,44 CB,45 Colts/acp and a friends 40.

+1 for some throat too.

I like my dino-like single action,bolt gun and O/U,but I had to get a Ruger Mk2,sks,HP-9,1100 to get the step kids intrested.

[BulletFactory]

I lubed a batch with BAC, then sized, that I also tumble lubed in LLA, and the leading was better, still there, but better. Still towards the muzzle end. So I ran the test again without cleaning the bore, for a total of 50 rounds. I still had quite a bit of lead buildup on the place where the case mouth meets the lip in the barrel. I was at only 10.4 BHN, I think I still need to go harder, I only cast them yesterday, so they didn't have time to age. It was wheel weights.

Curious thing I haver noticed though, the leading seems to be heavier on the top side of the barrel. Any ideas on this one?

[BulletFactory]

Accuracy was better too. Not what it should be, but I want to solve the leading first, and then try different charges for accuracy.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/scan0003.jpg

[243winxb]

I still had quite a bit of lead buildup on the place where the case mouth meets the lip in the barrel. Your going to have this if the throat is .401" and the bullet is sized to .403" Seating the bullet deeper as you have will only let the round chamber fully. At this point in time, i would worry only about accuracy. If the accuray degrades/gets very poor as you fire many rounds, then you have real leading. Real leading would cause about 50% of shots to not even contact your target at 50 feet. A BHN 16 would be good for around the pressures your loading at, with air cooled boolits. A harder bullet would let you size to .401" But may or may not stop leading. Keep testing. :-) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_1.jpg http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/LeeChart.jpg

[BulletFactory]

I thought that shooting for accuracy before getting the leading to stop would be pointless.

[Bret4207]

There's leading and then there's LEADING. You can have a highly accurate gun that shows a lead "wash". It will remain consistent over 25 or 50 or 100 rounds, won't really build up to anything more than the lead wash. Then you can have LEADING. Anything from a slight wash that builds and builds over 25 or 50 or 100 rounds till the bore is blocked entirely. Or you might get heavy leading that obscures the rifling in a mag full, or just one shot might leave gobs of lead alloy smeared all over the inside of the barrel.

This is part of our ongoing problem with cast, a lack of clear definition in terms. A lead wash might be fine, true leading is another thing. But with out pictures we don't know exactly what YOU mean when you say "I've got leading".

[BulletFactory]

The leading I'm referring to happens within 25 rounds, and is thick. Sometimes causing these pieces of lead to curl away from the rifling inside the barrel. I have actually missed an 8 1/2x11" paper target from 35 feet away.

[Moonie]

I've heard that high antimony alloys can cause leading issues. You might try some straight WW alloy, even if you have to purchase some from some of the vendors here, or even isotope containers, either should make decent alloy for your 40. Just to try something other than what you know isn't working.

[BulletFactory]

Yeah, right now I'm http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/banghead.gif

[45r]

Ya might want to quit wasting your time on that gun and get a Kimber 45acp.Mine shoots cast into a ragged hole at 17 yards.You might want to shoot at 50 yards,that will show how good your gun really is.

[thx997303]

Ya might want to quit wasting your time on that gun and get a Kimber 45acp.Mine shoots cast into a ragged hole at 17 yards.You might want to shoot at 50 yards,that will show how good your gun really is.

How very unhelpful.

BulletFactory, check your pm inbox.

[BulletFactory]

The Kimber Custom Eclipse 2 is my dream gun, but I'm exactly $1,044.95 + tax short of that goal. Right now I'm taking back popcans for primers, and I'm stuck with alloy that doesn't work.

thx, I'll try that as soon as I can get some pure lead, thank you.

[BulletFactory]

If the bore slugs at .401, .4008, and .4005, depending on which of the 3 grooves measured on the slug, then what diameter do the bullets need to come out of the sizer at?

[243winxb]

If the bore slugs at .401, .4008, and .4005, depending on which of the 3 grooves measured on the slug, then what diameter do the bullets need to come out of the sizer at? Sized bullets should measure .401" to .4015" http://www.missouribullet.com/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=0&category=5&secondary=11 :smile:

[BulletFactory]

What happened to the .002+bore dia. that I'm always hearing about?

[462]

Throat dimension plus .001" to .002", with your gun being the final authority.

Experiment.

[pjh421]

I'm with the throating crowd. Simple fix. You're using good lube. With a proper throat and alloy appropriately hard for the psi your load is generating there should be little to no leading. Remember, SA doesn't expect you to use cast boolits. Most of their customers undoubtedly shoot jacketed, factory ammunition. If they built a bullseye gun, that would be a different story. Your throat is dimensioned for the use of jacketed ammo. Without polishing, the throat would probably show gilding metal fouling too. Intriguing thread, though. Thanks.

Paul

[BulletFactory]

How do I measure the throat dimension?

[bhn22]

How do I measure the throat dimension?

Slug the throat. Drive an oiled, oversized pure lead slug into your CLEAN barrel from the chamber end & tap it down until you're positive it is at the chamber/throat junction. Then drive it back out the way it went in. Use a micrometer, not calipers to measure your slug.

[BulletFactory]

That's the area between where the cartridge seats, and where the rifling starts?

[pjh421]

Yes it is. I have a 1/2 pound ingot of Cerro-Safe alloy from Midway. It melts at ~170*F. You use it to make a chamber/throat casting, tap it out from from muzzle to chamber, wait a hour and measure. I think it cost $20. Bhn22's method works well too. I'm just not thrilled with the deep-seat/reduce the powder charge fix. You should be able to shoot full powered cast loads through this gun with little to no leading. I don't know what you can afford to do with this but if it was mine, I'd either have your barrel inspected/adjusted as necessary by a qualified gunsmith or start looking for a cast-friendly replacement barrel.

Paul

[BulletFactory]

I'm flat Broke. If I can't make what I have work, Its not going to work. The barrel is brand new, less than 500 rounds. Only a dozen jacketed ones.

[blackthorn]

Just a word on Cerrosafe---if you use it you must measure the casting as close to exactly one hour after it was cast due to the changing diameter over time! If you wait beyond one hour, there is a formula that must be used. I dont have quick access to my stored notes just now but if you want I will look it up when I get time. Chamber casts can be made using sulfor with about 10 to 25% graphite and those casts do not expand or shrink over time. Have a great day.

[243winxb]

That's the area between where the cartridge seats, and where the rifling starts? The throat starts where the chamber ends @ .862" max. length. Then the throat is .125" to .140" long and .401" to .405" in diameter. Then the leade starts, this is a bevel on the lands to allow the bullet to take the rifling smoothly. Groove diameter is .4005" Basic bore is .395" See SAAMI drawing here > http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/40%20SandW.pdf [smilie=s:

[45r]

The Kimber Custom Eclipse 2 is my dream gun, but I'm exactly $1,044.95 + tax short of that goal. Right now I'm taking back popcans for primers, and I'm stuck with alloy that doesn't work.

thx, I'll try that as soon as I can get some pure lead, thank you.

Sorry if I sounded disrespectfull.I think that you may need to size .401 and heat treat your boolits or get hardball alloy.Sizing larger makes the shearing worse I'd think.Your shearing problem might be fixed by using some lapping compound.Make a tight fitting balled up looking patch on smaller old worn out 22 brush and put compound on patch and put in a drill and spin back and forth in the throat area just enough to smooth that area out.Repolish again with flitz.Then maybe when your boolit chambers it will seat into a smooth throat and not shear.Your dream gun is a great choice for a good cast boolit shooter,I hope someday your dream comes true.I had a 40 but it just didn't shoot boolits near as well as a 45acp so it got traded in.I like all big bore handguns but the 45 is my favorite calibur,it just plain works.That is why I advised getting one.

[BulletFactory]

Thanks. I was just frustrated with the .40 at the time. No worries.

The sizing issue is a bit confusing though, If I slug the bore, and it comes out to .400 whatever, (it depends on where you measure), I thought I was supposed to size to .403, because that's the .002+ that everyone talks about. When I look at the shearing, and the SAAMI page that was posted, I can see why Im getting shearing. If I size to .401, and go with a hard alloy, how can the bullet obturate, sealing the bore from gas cutting? I thought smaller bullets cause leading.

[BulletFactory]

The throat starts where the chamber ends @ .862" max. length. Then the throat is .125" to .140" long and .401" to .405" in diameter. Then the leade starts, this is a bevel on the lands to allow the bullet to take the rifling smoothly. Groove diameter is .4005" Basic bore is .395" See SAAMI drawing here > http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/40%20SandW.pdf [smilie=s:

I oiled and drove a slug into the barrel, but not far enough to engage the rifling, and here are the measurements. They vary. .4024 .4018, .4021, .4018, .4027, .4016 I measured, and then rotated the slug a bit, then measured, and rotated it again, and got different readings. I'm using a non digital Lyman vernier mic, and am using the ratchet to set the measurement. With these variations, I'm not sure what diameter to size to, I thought barrels were supposed to be round.

[Harter66]

Bullet,

I use my work up method and as cast boolits for proficiency "bedroom" training and fun shooting. I dedicate more effort to loads intended for clean terminal proformance and long range lil-bitty groups. For the hunt (I'm required to have 1.280+ min case length)a load has to shoot 2" at 50yd for all 6 holes off the bags. The ol'bedroom gun paper plate at 25 is more than adaquite.

I saw your other post bad alloy maybe the leading cause. I think if you will slow them down to relible cycling it will help atleast untill you can dilute/use up the stuff you have now.

[HangFireW8]

I'm flat Broke. If I can't make what I have work, Its not going to work. The barrel is brand new, less than 500 rounds. Only a dozen jacketed ones.

If it is brand new, it should be under warranty. Call the manufacturer and see what they say. If it is not throated properly, they should fix it. Since it's a self-loader you should be able to send back just the barrel, and avoid the hassle of paperwork.

I would avoid mentioning cast boolits. If it isn't throated properly, as has been said here, it will foul with copper jackets as well, and still needs to be fixed.

-HF

[BulletFactory]

loaded up 20 at 7.3 gr. sized to .401, and tried a mix of my alloy 50/50 wheel weights, water dropped. BHN after 18 hours was 20.4, and lubed with BAC. Still had leading. sigh . I'll try a batch air cooled and get back with you. They did cast a little better, not much, but a little better.

No real buildup in the chamber.

[mpmarty]

This is strange indeed. I cast load and shoot the 10mm which is for all intents and purposes a 40 with a longer case working at even higher pressures. My ACWW lubed with a 50/50 lla jpw mix work fine with no leading in any of my four pistols in this caliber. My cast boolits measure .403 to .4025 and I don't size them at all. 170gr LEE truncated cone tumble lube design over five grains of Red Dot functions and is accurate enough. My "other" load is a 200gr condom bullet over 14 gr of AA-9 for around 1200 fps.

[BulletFactory]

what's a condom bullet?

Does that go with what we as gun owners are said to be compensating for?

BTW, when accused of compensating for something, the response should be,"Yes, actually I am compensating for something, I left my rifle at home". Hahaha

[BulletFactory]

Loaded and shot 25, same powder etc., only change was the 50/50 alloy. sized with an unmodified Lee .401 sizer.

Still leading the bore, still lead buildup on that lip in the chamber.

$#!+ !!!

Should I just wait until I can buy some predictable alloy? I was thinking about something from rotometals. Any product suggestions?

[thx997303]

Guy, make your boolits bigger.

.401" in your bore is likely to lead.

Was your 50/50 alloy air cooled or water dropped?

[BulletFactory]

I tried it AC then cleaned the bore, then WD, and got about the same.

I have a bigger die, but it makes the shearing worse. Builds up really bad where the case should headspace on

[mroliver77]

Is this the only powder you have? I have a .38 Astra that was giving me fits with leading. I went harder, softer, bigger and smaller with no joy. After much head scratching and being mad I tried a load of Blue Dot and PRESTO! it was clean as a whistle. After I shot this gun thousands of rounds it smoothed up and will take about any good .38 cast load now. I also would try backing off the powder charge some.
You seem to be stuck on the +.002 over groove rule. This is a general guideline. You have probably seen people say "Let DR gun tell you whats best." or something similar. Some guns don't play by the "rules" well.
I would suggest you read all you can find about barrels, throats constrictions, proper lead friendly chambers etc.You are getting some conflicting advice and this can be very confusing to sort through. There is also more than one way to skin a cat.
If it were me and I was was broke I would try to fire lap the lead/throat area into a smoother transition. I would prefer to ream a lead friendly chamber-throat but we sometimes have to punt. Don't take my word for it though. Read up on it. Keep asking. Keep notes.
I would bet that there is a combination that will work in this gun as is but it is going to take some work.
One last thing. Are you tumble lubing with the BAC? I would make sure the grooves are filled full of lube. If you have to pan lube to accomplish, go to it.
I have some alloy that does not like to fill out molds well. I have to run it pretty hot and flux with a wax often. I flood the top of the melt with the wax and stir/scrape vigorously with a wooden stick.. It does self ignite sometimes but I am used to it and rarely throw the stick anymore. ;) After 20 - 50 pours I must again flux well or this alloy just sucks. I do preheat my molds on a 1/2" aluminum plate set on top of a Walmart hot plate. I am sold on the preheat. If I take a break or refill pot etc, mould stays on hotplate until I am ready to cast again. The top of the pot never worked well enough for this for me.
Jay

[nanuk]

See SAAMI drawing here http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/40%20SandW.pdf


Am I seeing this right? the "Shoulder" at the end of the chamber, that establishes headspace, is 90 degrees?

I can see how the .40S&W could be persnicketty

[Bret4207]

What happened to the .002+bore dia. that I'm always hearing about?

That depends. I don't agree with a lot of 243s recommendations despite the handy links he always gives. This case is not exception, and I mean no disrespect to 243. Lead alloys are very malleable compared to jacketed. You can go at groove diameter up to about +.003 in many, not all, guns with moderate loads with no problem. In the great majority of guns +.002 will give good results. BUT- it all depends on how close we're capable of measuring, what our sizers actually produce, what happens to the boolit on ignition and what that particular alloy with that particular charge in that particular case with that particular design with that particular gun/lube/temp/etc. does. Some guns are really finicky, some aren't. Some guns/loads/alloys/boolit designs like to be right at groove diameter, others want +.003. This is the hard and frustrating part with a gun that doens't much care for cast.

Look, each barrel, each load, each batch of brass is different to one degree or another. What you have is a strange alloy and a gun with cast unfriendly attributes. I think your chamber is cut in a manner the promotes your problems. Throating might help. You need to try and identify just where the lead shavings are coming from. If the build up as fast as you say then I imagine your jacketed stuff is getting cut too.

[BulletFactory]

I do have some Winchester WST, gave up on that months ago when people suggested that my powder was too fast.

Why back off on the HS-^? I'm at minimum right now.?.

Im pan lubing with BAC, I tried to tumble on LLA on top of the BAC once, but if I can avoid that I will.

What's really bugging me is this lead buildup in the chamber. This will eventually keep the slide from going all the way into battery, and there is a chance that the gun will fire out of battery, blowing it up. If that happens, I'm done.

[BulletFactory]

Im waiting for the lube to heat , but I'll be loading 30, sized with the .401 die, but with a heat treated alloy that tested 15.4 today. I'll be loading just over minimum, at 7.5, the OAL will be 1.100.

[geargnasher]

The .40 can be a real beeeaaatch, Bulletfactory, as you're discovering.

It looks like most of your problems are related to the gun having no "leade" or "ball seat", or a 90 degree one instead of a taper. This abrupt transtion is, from what I can see in your pictures, causing the boolits to be shaved off as they enter the bore.

The boolits may be starting out the right size, and exiting the case the right size, but by the time they get into the barrel they may be right AT groove dimension and that might not make it tight enough.

Something not often mentioned or realized is that our lead/antimony/tin alloys have a considerable springback, and a .001"-oversized slug will compress like it's made of rubber when entering a tapered leade, and hold tension against the bore the whole way out of the gun, maintaining the seal (obturation) and preventing the leading caused by gas leaks/gas cutting. If your boolits are getting shaved, they won't have that extra metal to compress and aid the seal. Fast powders like Bullseye, Titegroup, and Clays can put enough pressure on the base quickly enough to "bump it up" or swell the base to seal, but that's an iffy proposition, especially with the .40.

Also with regard to springback, I didn't read your other thread, but if you're slugging the bore with anything other than dead-soft pure lead the slugs will emerge slightly larger than the hole through which they were squeezed, so your groove diameter is likely more like .4000". I'd recheck it with a fishing sinker or case a couple of boolits with pure lead solder and use those.

The advice to firelap has been given, and I think that might not be a bad idea, but a better idea would be to first make a lap and cut a bevel on the end of the chamber. If you haven't done this before, do some serious reading first, you can easily damage the front end of the chamber (case mouth area) if the lap doesn't fit right. You want to just break the sharp edge where the bore meets the chamber so it will funnel the boolit into the barrel without scraping off the lead in a ring.

I'll say this, you've done most things right as far as I can tell, it's the gun you seem to be fighting. HS6 is a superb medium-to-high-end powder for the .40, Blue Dot is excellent but only for top-end loads WITH VERY HARD BOOLITS or with gas-checked boolits. BAC should be plenty good for lube all the way to max loads. Just remember that this is a MAGNUM LEVEL CARTRIDGE, and you won't get away with boolits softer than about 15 bhn unless you're loading in the 16-18K CUP range, and using a medium to fast powder like Unique or faster. Either load it exactly like you'd load the .45 ACP, meaning medium powder, 10-12 bhn boolits, and pressure under 15K CUP (basically half-power loads for the .40), or load it like it was meant to be using 18-24 bhn boolits, high-performance lube, and very slow pistol powder.

Good luck,

Gear

[BulletFactory]

I did slug the bore with pure lead, I had saved some of those 7 gram square tape wheel weights, and the BHN couldnt be checked, the dent from the ball was too big.

I shot 25 rounds today, loaded at 7.5 gr HS-6, OAL was 1.100, the BHN was 15.4, sized with a .401 die, and got lead curling out of the rifling after only 1 magazine. The accuracy was something similar to what one would expect from a bottle rocket. At 40 feet, I kept seeing hits in the grass behind the target.

the leading starts less than half way down the bore, getting continually thicker as it goes.

[243winxb]

What bullet Mould , number is this > http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/My40s.jpg This Lee bullet looks like a better fit for a 40 S&W http://leeprecision.com/xcart/images/P/p-45.jpg http://leeprecision.com/xcart/MOLD-DC-401-175-TC.html :coffee:

[BulletFactory]

Accurate molds # 40-160B

[243winxb]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/catalogue/40-160B.png Your bullet seems different to me then there drawing. Your cast one looks like a semi wad cutter. The ogive does not flow in to the body of the bullet. :confused: Could be the photo i guess.

[BulletFactory]

there is a slight step between the nose and the bearing surface.

The mold I used to have was a lyman, it looked like the lee one that was pictured. I had found a couple of the old bullets, but they didn't chamber any better, and they still leaded the barrel.

Could the two groove design be a problem? I don't see how, rifle bullets have many grooves, and are driven faster, also, the tumble lube designes have many grooves that are much smaller.

[243winxb]

The 2 lube grooves don't matter. I was just thinking that if the nose flowed into the body without that step, you would not shave lead in the chamber as easy. Plus the rounds COL could be longer, helping to align the bullet nose in the chamber.

[BulletFactory]

I was thinking that too, but the old design sheared on a test fit, I'm glad in a way, I'd hate to have spent a hundred bucks on an unuseable mold.

Those accurate molds are just awesome.

[BulletFactory]

Is fire lapping where you would shoot some abrasive bullets to sand the barrel? I've heard of this for rifles, but where would I get some for a .40?

[geargnasher]

I did slug the bore with pure lead, I had saved some of those 7 gram square tape wheel weights, and the BHN couldnt be checked, the dent from the ball was too big.

I shot 25 rounds today, loaded at 7.5 gr HS-6, OAL was 1.100, the BHN was 15.4, sized with a .401 die, and got lead curling out of the rifling after only 1 magazine. The accuracy was something similar to what one would expect from a bottle rocket. At 40 feet, I kept seeing hits in the grass behind the target.

the leading starts less than half way down the bore, getting continually thicker as it goes.

Your gun has to be the problem.

I've fired hundreds of trouble-free rounds through an M&P .40 using 7.8 grains of HS6, 175grain Lee TC, lubed with Felix lube or 50/50 White Lable BAC and Carnauba Red. Boolits were water quenched wheel weights at 22 bhn, sized .4015" (.0015" over groove) groups were under three inches at 25 yards from bags for as long as you wanted to keep shooting. The trick was balancing pressure, launch, lube, alloy, same trick with any cast load in any caliber, but much more picky here. If your gun doesn't have a ball seat you're :takinWiz: in the wind.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

What's a ball seat?

And fire lapping, will these help? http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=220502

[BulletFactory]

I figured it must be the gun, cast bullets work, or this forum wouldnt have so much traffic. I've tried so many different combinations with the ammo, hard, soft, 3 different sizer diameters, 2 powders, different lubes, different OAL, you name it. What people have suggested, I have tried faithfully.

[geargnasher]

A "ball seat" is another term for "leade". It's the part of the barrel between the mouth of the throat and the fully rifled part of the barrel. It goes "chamber", "throat", "leade", and "bore", "muzzle" in order (or something like that depending on the terms you accept). "Ball seat" is one term for the transitional area between the case mouth and the bore that supports the nose of the boolit when fired. Your gun seems to have an abrupt transition between chamber and bore that is shaving off lead instead of swaging the boolit into the rifling. NO TAPER. Tring to get a boolit through your gun is like trying to split firewood with a sledgehammer instead of a maul or axe.

From MidwayUSA's guntec dictionary: "Definition for "leade" : A short distance of unrifled bore area immediately in front of the chamber. Also called 'freebore'. "

Gear

[geargnasher]

http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=714fbee85e74b3e6f28934a3c9b5d3 dc&action=dlattach;topic=3747855.0;attach=865568;imag e

Here's something I pilfered from the AR forum, hope they forgive me. Spclark posted it as an example of freebore. The white part is what your pistol doesn't seem to have, it skips from the front ledge of the chamber to the rifling without any transition. I can tell by the way the lead is being peeled back on chambered rounds you have photographed, particularly the one in post #18. The Accurate boolit you tried is seated deep enough for the front driving band to not be sheared upon chambering, but surely it will be on firing, leaving the little rings behind that are causing your battery issues, and the boolit might be getting sized by the first part of the barrel just a hair too small to seal, causing gas cutting, lube to be blown out of the muzzle, and leading.

You've done everything I could offer you to try, I don't think there's anything you can do to shoot lead in this gun without modifying the barrel. I don't think firelapping will do what you need it to do before wearing the rest of the barrel out, and if you were to firelap it, I'd strongly suggest using a boolit with a smooth transition from nose to body, no step like the two designs you already have. The rest of your barrel probably doesn't need the wear lapping will cause, just a chamfer of the breech end of the pipe would probably be sufficient. Interestingly, I've heard of the XD 45 having the same issue, practically no throat or leade which at best makes boolit selection and seating depth critical, and at worst causes the problems you're having.

However, you need to determine this FOR SURE by making a chamber cast or, a cheaper and IMO better solution is to make an impact slug. Search here for "impact slug" and you'll get hits on threads describing how to do it in rifles, same principle for automatic pistols, just easier.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

I got 25 pages when I entered impact slug, where do I begin?

[BulletFactory]

If I can get this fixed, I think that the BHN should be around 20? and that I should be sizing to .002 above bore, using HS-6, seating to 1.135 according to the books, and using BAC for lube. Is this correct?

This is how I set the crimp, tell me if you think this is a good method. The outer ring of the FCD has been removed entirely. I start with a sized, flared case, no bullet. I try to insert the case into the barrel out of the gun. It wont go but half way in. I turn the screw on the crimp die in a bit, then try to insert the empty case into the barrel, it goes a little farther. I repeat this until the case goes all the way into the chamber easily. I turn the screw down just a little bit more. This method seems to set the crimp in such a way as to not swage down the bullets at all, yet allows the bullets to chamber easily in the gun.

[Bret4207]

For goodness sake- FORGET BHN!!!!

[243winxb]

Am I seeing this right? the "Shoulder" at the end of the chamber, that establishes headspace, is 90 degrees?

I can see how the .40S&W could be persnicketty Not a gunsmith, so not sure??. When i look at drawings for 45acp & 9mm luger, they do not have this.
* Dimensions are to intersection on lines

[truckboss]

hey bullet,i think your crimp method is fine.boy i'm almost lost for things for you to try,but.have you tried sizing you boolits down to groove size .400 or what ever it is?i hate to give you some advice where you have to spend more money and the same results.maybe go to the boolit exchange and see if some one has any boolits that are groove size.just a thought.

[BulletFactory]

Bret, I was just trying to give myself a good start for whenever I can get the funds to repair this barrel. Just trying to establish a baseline here. I have a feeling that I'm going to have to either repair the barrel or get a new gun. that is likely to take until this fall unless I run into something good.

[geargnasher]

OK, HERE.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Determining_Case_Lengths_Chamber_Casts_and_Impact_ Impression.html

Read the whole thing, but the impact slug article is at the end.

Before you ask, yes you do need to shorten the brass a little bit, unless you already have a ton of room between the mouth of the case and the end of the chamber, which you should not since this thing headspaces on the case mouth.

The truth of the matter is that if you knew what you were looking for you could tell right off what the problem is by taking the barrel out of the frame, shining a bore light into the muzzle and peering into the chamber end. If it looks like the rifled portion of the barrel is just sawed off square and has the chamber stuck on the end of it, then you have a problem. Look for slight bevels on the chamber end of the lands, at least. Try to imagine a cone-shaped transition between the end of the chamber (not accounting for the slight ledge that the case mouth headspaces on) and the bore, like the forcing cone on a revolver barrel but not as exaggerated. If there is no transition machined into the end of the bore, then you likely will have to fix that before you can get it to shoot.

Remember, like most modern, plastic automatics, this gun was never intended to shoot cast boolits, and the manufacturer most likely made the thing to engrave the bullet as soon as possible to promote an early seal, it probably has sealed the bore with the bullet before the base exits the case. This promotes accuracy and maximum velocity with jacketed bullets. Unfortunately, there are different dynamics involved with successful cast boolit shooting, and the gun needs to be dimensioned a little differently sometimes. The good news is that your problem is likely very easily fixed.

Gear

[mroliver77]

Gear has explained everything much better than I can. I would be kind of leery to do an impact slug on a pistol. I have had lever guns almost refuse to open after pounding a slug. There is a point where overdoing the pound will hold lots of pressure on the action keeping it from moving. If not enough pressure the lead will not flow well enough to fill all the corners and crannies that need filled. The pistol has no leverage to help open it if one is a bit overzealous with upsetting the slug.
You might be able to take the barrel off. Clean it very well. Use some Pam or other release in the chamber and first couple inches of the barrel. Push a patch or tissue into barrel to plug it an inch after the chamber. Fill chamber/ barrel with melted wax. Let it setup fully and then push out from the muzzle. This will not give you exact measurements but will allow you to see how the throat is set up. If you were not so poor I would say buy some cerrosafe to use.
Basically a throat is a funnel from the groove size to the bore size of your barrel. There are different configurations but they all accomplish the same thing.
Jacketed bullets can take much rougher treatment than lead alloy boolits can. Like gear I almost bet if you aggressively chamber jacketed and the eject it there will be evidence of the sharp transition.
I am not saying you should do this but I still believe that firelapping with jacketed
RN or TC would smooth/taper the leade/throat area without taking too much away from the rest of the barrel. Bear in mind that firelapping is a compromise way of fixing a problem that should never happen.
Jay

[mroliver77]

Dang it gear, you posted while I was (slowly) typing. :) I could have passed.
Jay

[geargnasher]

Hey, good idea! He doesn't need exact measurements, just a cast of the shape. I've slugged all my automatics and a plastic deadblow hammer and brass rod are very helpful to get the thing open again, and it is possible to break the extractor. I do most of my impact slugs with the barrel out, just place the chamber end on a block of hardwood with the prepared "slug" cartridge fully chambered (flush with barrel hood) and pound away.

But I like the wax/pam idea even better.

Gear

[mroliver77]

DO IT WITH THE BARREL OUT OF THE GUN, JAY!! Sometimes I really wonder about me.;)
J

[BulletFactory]

How bout hot glue? seems more durable than wax, and easier than lead.

[BulletFactory]

no hot glue, that was a REALLY REALLY BAD IDEA

[BulletFactory]

Managed to scratch the inside of the barrel trying to get it out.

[243winxb]

BulletFactory. You already slugged your bore and throat. with this information you need to size bullets no larger the .402" Next you need an air cooled alloy with a BHN of at least 16. This alloy need 2% tin in it. Your lube should be fine if bullet grooves are filled. For powder use a starting load. Alliant Unique -5.0gr with your 165gr bullet should be a good starting load. Or buy some bullet here to test with to see if it is a gun problem. http://www.missouribullet.com/ Good Luck :smile: correction 5.0gr of Unique to start. http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=79&category=5&secondary=11&keywords= http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/misc/MissouriBulletCo.jpg

[BulletFactory]

Thanks. I guess I'll give these a shot when I get a chance. Since I scratched the bore I'll try those fire lapping bullets and see if that doesnt help this problem too. Seems I have a short shopping list. Alloy, lapping bullets, those in the picture, and probably a gunsmithing bill.

[Harter66]

There are dozens of threads on lapping here , including fire lapping ,and very detailed instructions of every step . I've done 1 ,getting set up to do another.

[geargnasher]

BulletFactory. You already slugged your bore and throat. with this information you need to size bullets no larger the .402" Next you need an air cooled alloy with a BHN of at least 16. This alloy need 2% tin in it. Your lube should be fine if bullet grooves are filled. For powder use a starting load. Alliant Unique -5.0gr with your 165gr bullet should be a good starting load. Or buy some bullet here to test with to see if it is a gun problem. Good Luck

I agree about switching to a mild load of Unique and medium-hardness boolits, but I'm still puzzled why none of the numerous "good" combinations he tried worked if there isn't something with the gun making it unsuited to cast. I doubt getting away from the front driving band step will help that much. I also missed where the throat dimensions were determined.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

I think its the gun too, Ill try to get a chamber cast, and have the gunsmith look at it. He's been out sick for a week.

[Bret4207]

I think at this point you ought to just set the gun down, let it be for a few days and do some research. You have no funds, you have little experience. I've been there, still am in some respects. This is the point (after the glue in the barrel episode) where it's best to follow the old adage of "Don't just DO something- SIT THERE!". Research the issues you're having. Computer time is cheap compared to barrels, moulds, even sizer dies.

BTW, I understand you want to get off to a good start, but I'm telling you, at the point you are at worrying Bhn of XX hardness with X% tin and X% antimony at exactly .0XX size is wasted time. If you want to do something, find some wheel weights, old ones if you can, and some enrichment metals like 90% tin solder or linotype. Start stock piling that.

Do you have another gun by any chance? You need some positive results to give you experience and lift your spirits. A 38 or 30-30 maybe?

[243winxb]

I agree about switching to a mild load of Unique and medium-hardness boolits, but I'm still puzzled why none of the numerous "good" combinations he tried worked if there isn't something with the gun making it unsuited to cast. I doubt getting away from the front driving band step will help that much. I also missed where the throat dimensions were determined.

Gear Throat-
They vary. .4024 .4018, .4021, .4018, .4027, .4016 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1194819&postcount=91

[243winxb]

Plus, there is an old XD and the newer XDm. The new XDm is said to have a tigher target chamber. Or minimum SAAMI dimensions. BulletFactory, what model do you own?

[thx997303]

It doesn't look like the "chamber slug" was done properly 243.

[BulletFactory]

I have an old XD, but the barrel was just replaced.

I only have one other gun, a socom 16, but between the trouble I've had reloading the .40, and breaking a barrel in it, there is no way a homemade round is ever getting within shooting range of that gun. I'll keep reloading for the .40, but the socom was 1800$!.

The only reason that I have a gun like that, is because Ive never had credit, and needed to get some established, so I charged it on a co sign. As it is, It will take me several years to pay it off. After the Arizona shooting, with threats of the assault weapons ban floating around, I didnt want to miss my chance.

[BulletFactory]

One other thing Ive noticed, don't know if its related though. I've been having some failure to eject issues, it always leaves a little chunk torn off the rim from the extractor. Are the casings wearing out? Im full length sizing, and the extractor looks fine.

[HangFireW8]

One other thing Ive noticed, don't know if its related though. I've been having some failure to eject issues, it always leaves a little chunk torn off the rim from the extractor. Are the casings wearing out? Im full length sizing, and the extractor looks fine.

Well, the cases might be overly hard (too much use), or the extractor may be overly sharp, but generally chunks torn off indicate that the brass case is still sticking to the chamber when extraction begins.

This can be caused by several things:
1. Too high pressure a load. (which has many causes itself)
2. Dirty chamber.
3. Tight chamber.
4. Oversized case.
5. Timing issues with the gun
6. Other stuff I can't think of right now.

With .40 it is very easy to go over pressure. Very slight increases in boolit seating depth will do it.

Note, the case should stick to the chamber wall, albeit very briefly. That is why we keep our chambers clean and free of oil.

-HF

[BulletFactory]

Well, Im running minimum charges, the cases are sized properly, the barrel is new, and I keep it clean, but Im using part range brass, and theres no way I know of to tell how many times they have been fired. Regardless, Im behind the 8 ball here, Im completely out of ideas and cash. Ive tried every different possible combination you could try with the ammo, and my gunsmith told me that it would be around a hundred to work on the barrel, so for now, Im sunk. Ill try fire lapping, but as of now, I need too many things to make this work. The abrasive rounds at 35$, jacketed rounds 25$, creosafe at 20$, some of those missourri bullets at 35$, replacement alloy for a hundred, and a gunsmith bill of a hunderd. All for a maybe it wont lead? Im on food stamps for petes sake.

[btroj]

Buy a 1911 in 45 ACP and all your troubles will disappear.
I know this is not the answer you want but you are shooting cast in a gun that obviously doesn't like it and in a caliber that is not real well known for being cast friendly.

Good luck.

Brad

[BulletFactory]

I know. Someday.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/eclipsecustomii.png

[462]

BulletFactory,
I fully understand your situations -- financial and leading -- as I've endured them both, and I will not make light of them. Also, you seem to have an abundance of patience.

Now, this may be difficult to take, and btoj beat me to it, but you may want to consider selling the gun and getting one that is inherently more boolit friendly. Or, if there is a gunsmith nearby, perhaps work out a trade for a used revolver in .357 Magnum or auto-loader in .45 ACP.

It's commendable that you want to get this gun to work as you would like, but sometimes it becomes necessary to persue less difficult options.

Whatever you decide, I wish you success.

Edit to add: I'm a slow composer and your picture beat me by a mile.

[rockrat]

If you seat, then crimp, it almost looks like you have a non-existant throat in your barrel. Possibly, when a round is chambered, it is seating the boolit a bit more, and shearing a ring of lead off of the front band.
Maybe trying to seat your boolits a bit deeper, will stop this.
Take a 3/8" wood dowel, drop a boolit in the chamber and put a little pressure on the base. Run the 3/8" dowel down the bore from the muzzle, mark it at the end of the barrel, then remove boolit, close action, and put dowel down bore again to breech face, mark again. Distance between marks is you max overall cartridge length with the boolit snug against the rifling. I then seat my boolits to allow for a miniscule amount of boolit jump before it hits the rifling.
Sometimes , if I have too heavy a crimp, when seating a boolit, and the casemouth is rolled a bit inward towards the boolit, any more movement to seat the boolit deeper will cut a small ring of lead off of the front driving band. Since you are seating and crimping in seperate operations, the additional seating might be happening when the round is chambered.

[BulletFactory]

Thanks. I am patient, discouraged, sure, but once I set my mind to something, its hard to get me to quit. By the traffic on this great forum, its obvious that cast bullets work, so, its me or the gun. Ive followed directions, tried this a thousand different ways, so, its the gun. I wanted that Kimber since the day I first got a sight picture on one, and I know they shoot cast very well. When I can get one, the dies and a mold, I'll be all set, at least Ive got a general idea of whats going on when I start with that one. Ive gotten a great start, tooling, and Ive learned a lot, so its going to happen, its just a question of money and a few details. This .40 was my first handgun so for sentimental reasons, I have to keep it, guns to me are like animals, they stay with me until they die. Besides, its so beat up from carrying it, its only worth a hundred anyhow. One things for sure, Im not giving up. The .40 maybe, but casting and reloading, I dont see me leaving that. Ive put this together piece by piece for over a year, I'll git er done.

[BulletFactory]

Rock, I'll look into that. AS it is now, I have checked the OAL, loaded it down one in the mag, then fired, so the measured round was chambered at operating pressures, removed it, and re measured the OAL. There was no change, there was enough force to dent the nose against the feed ramp, but no setback.

[Bret4207]

"The abrasive rounds at 35$, jacketed rounds 25$, creosafe at 20$, some of those missourri bullets at 35$, replacement alloy for a hundred, and a gunsmith bill of a hunderd. All for a maybe it wont lead? Im on food stamps for petes sake. "

Okay, plain old fine valve grinding compound will work for lapping, you don't need Missouri boolits and I can't believe you can't locate some free WW and scrap. Settle down and do some creative scrounging. Does your gunsmith have any work he needs done you can do? Mowing, raking, gutters cleaned, painting? Are there any smaller out of the way garages in your area? Start asking around, there is stuff out there, you just need to find it.

[243winxb]

Reasons NOT to fire lap:

> http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_Fire_lapping.htm

[HangFireW8]

I corresponded with Gale McMillan on fire lapping. He first ran into it when a customer returned one of his bench rifles that wouldn't shoot well. He observed the uneven wear and the funnel shaped bore (muzzle end larger) and asked what happened- owner fire lapped it first thing on receiving it. Prior to shipment he had tested it to shoot groups good enough to win the Super Shoot.

The first thing he said was that he'd void the warranty of anyone who did that to one of his barrels.

The second was that quality barrels are already properly lapped to the correct grit, and don't need fire lapping.

The third is that due to increasing velocity, wear is greater near the muzzle, which is the opposite of the geometry desired.

Unfortunately I can't afford to put hand-lapped barrels with zero geometry problems on all my guns. However I still see fire lapping as a last-ditch effort to fix a barrel before throwing it in the trash.

If the problem is a new gun, it should be returned for warranty work. If they refuse, at least they know that it is not acceptable to some customers, and you know about them as well.

If the problem child is an old military rifle, often there are a few inches at the end of the barrel that can be sacrificed. Therefore conventional lead lap and rod lapping can be done and then the end of the barrel cut off when finished to get rid of the place where the rod was reversed. The rod reverses near the breech, of course, but it is OK if this is slightly funnel shaped.

-HF

[BulletFactory]

I was concerned that if I sent it back, they might catch on to the fact that Im reloading, which voids the warranty. Im trying to stay under the radar.

My gunsmith checked with a bore scope, and it does have an angle on the throat, but not much. The bore slugged at .4014, when I drove a slug in just before the rifling, I got .4022 He suggested opening up the throat another thousanth.

As far as fire lapping, this barrel is ready for the trash.

[BulletFactory]

I mixed the mystery alloy with 75% WW, water quenched them, and switched to Winchester WST that I had leftover. BHN is 22 to 24. Im getting less leading than before, but thats probably because I haven't gotten the throat opened up yet. I loaded them to 4.5 grains initially, and got less leading, so I raised it to 4.8 grains WST, and it seemed a little better. I was able to keep 40 rounds on a sheet of paper at 50 feet.

[shootinxd]

I thought I would chime in since that broken lug barrel pic was from my gun.If you had followed my post the loads were not the problem.POOR quality Fire dragon barrels.I now have been shooting a Storm lake barrel(same loads) with limited success on leading.My experience with the XD is the lead just before the rifling is causing most of the issue Bullet is having.My loads that work best are very low charges of fast powders to keep skidding to a minimum.I shot several thousnds of reloads thru the factory barrel(well under max loads)and finally just wore out the lug.I did try fire lapping the barrel that SA replaced at NO charge and it did help to some extent.Ill keep working to find a CB thats works.

[popper]

If I had some of the MBC 180's left I's send you some to try but I've loaded up the last of the 2nd box of 500. Shot them out of my XD .40 (factory bbl). Only minor leading that cleaned out easily and didn't affect accuracy. Check your COL, make sure they are not too short forcing the extractor to do HS. This will allow lead to build up in the chamber and cause your problem. The lead will look like a ring cause it got hammered.

[BulletFactory]

When I size them smaller, the lead ring goes away.

I cant do much with the OAL due to the design of the bullet. Doesnt give you much room to move. When I can get the money, I'll get a LEE TC mold to experiment with.

The hardest part of the lead to remove, is right close to the rifling. The rest comes out pretty easily, but that stuff just hangs on.

I just hope I have better luck with the M&P.