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View Full Version : What is this muzzleloader?



cavalrymedic
03-02-2011, 01:09 AM
I bought this baby a few months ago from an antique store locally. I know that it's a Thompson and that it's 45 cal. It looks a lot like the Hawken; however, it has some additional brass on the furniture and the barrel does not say Hawken anywhere on it. It has a low 4 digit serial number, It's cap style and it is a pure pleasure to shoot. I just want to know what it really is.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_148054d6dd09d3c540.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=73)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_148054d6dd0b464bd8.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=74)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_148054d6dd0c8813d0.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=75)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_148054d6dd0faced15.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=76)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_148054d6dd1125bf3c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=77)

Mumblypeg
03-02-2011, 01:16 AM
Looks like a Seneca. Is it 13/16" across the flats? They also made it in 36cal.

DIRT Farmer
03-02-2011, 01:26 AM
I would agree on a Seneca. a great handling gun and a good shooter.

405
03-02-2011, 01:36 AM
Yep, if it's 13/16 across the flats it's a Seneca. The blued pipes, angular cheek and trigger guard are Seneca. The "extra" brass looks like added embellishments by a previous owner. :veryconfu

cavalrymedic
03-02-2011, 02:16 AM
Uhh....I'm kinda new to muzzleloaders. What do you mean when you ask "across the flats?"

cavalrymedic
03-02-2011, 02:19 AM
OHHH.....silly me...it measures .812 at the muzzle, on the "flat" parts, and if my math is any good, that's 13/16ths of an inch. So, it is a Seneca. Did I do well to pick it up for $200?

gnoahhh
03-02-2011, 11:20 AM
Not a steal, but not bad.

(By the way, the brass is the "furniture". The wood is, well, a stock. Many people use the term incorrectly.)

cavalrymedic
03-02-2011, 12:56 PM
Ahhh. I get it now. Thanks for the schooling, I always thought that since real furniture is made of wood, then the stock must be the furniture. Who ever thought of sitting on a brass sofa? Well, the more I know, the dumber I become. Things were so much simpler when I was an idiot who thought he knew everything.

cavalrymedic
03-02-2011, 12:58 PM
So you guys think that the brass "Starburst" on the cheek side is an aftermarket add on? But it seems so natural and professional. It looks great. Well, that explains why I haven't found any pictures exactly the same.

LUCKYDAWG13
03-02-2011, 01:45 PM
that looks sweet $200. good deal how does it shoot

northmn
03-02-2011, 07:12 PM
The Seneca is a very nice little rifle and should offer you a lot of enjoyment. It is not as strong as the Hawken and I would top a maximum charge at 65 grains of 3f and a round ball. Maxis might best be left to the Hawken shooters or at least loaded at a reasonable level. 13/16 45's are very nice light rifles but do not leave as much wall thickness (outside of the bore to outside of the barrel). When I started shooting ML's a lot of rifles were built on the 13/16 45 barrel.

DP

cavalrymedic
03-02-2011, 08:56 PM
Thanks for all the info guys. She shoots very well. All if shot so far have been Hornaday sabots. The Sabots are really just 357 hollow points with the plastic cup, but they seem to shoot fine. I am just starting to think about casting for this gun but I really have no idea how to do that yet. That's why I'm perusing the forum. I plan on taking her Deer hunting come Muzzleloader season. I just need to do a little more shooting to get proficient with a ML.

405
03-02-2011, 09:41 PM
The "starburst" is an add-on as are the brass pins or tacks. The angular cheekpiece in the stock is a Seneca trait and is correct. The brass parts of a T/C Seneca are: butt plate, trigger guard, patch box, wedge escutcheons, forend cap and forend ramrod entry. Any other brass is added by a previous owner. The factory steel parts on the Seneca are the lock/trigger, barrel/tang, and ram rod pipes. One thing I noticed in the photos is that the edges of the cheekpiece and the edges around the lock are a little washed out or rounded. That indicates the re-finish sanding after the brass "extras" were added.

T/C used to make a small version of their tang mounted aperture sight. That coupled with a medium thickness blade front provided about the best sight picture possible and therefore the best accuracy potential for these guns short of going to a glass sight. I know that the tang mounted aperture is still available for the T/C Hawken but not sure about it's smaller cousin designed for the Seneca.

Yes, the Seneca is a nice, sleek, easy to handle T/C muzzleloader. :)

DIRT Farmer
03-02-2011, 11:34 PM
Cav Medic, the T/C senecas I used for teaching 4-H shooting sports were very good shooting rifles and easy handling. The 45 may be a bit heavy for small game but 30 to 35 grns of fffg will not damage meat bad. step up to 60 grns of ffg and a round ball and it is a deer rifle, just be sure of your shot placement. You can buy swaged round balls in .440 and .445, get some of each and find what works best.

PatMarlin
03-03-2011, 01:59 AM
Darn nice rifle. I would like to have one. I just did a trade on a TC Patriot in 45cal.

northmn
03-03-2011, 10:27 AM
Cav Medic, the T/C senecas I used for teaching 4-H shooting sports were very good shooting rifles and easy handling. The 45 may be a bit heavy for small game but 30 to 35 grns of fffg will not damage meat bad. step up to 60 grns of ffg and a round ball and it is a deer rifle, just be sure of your shot placement. You can buy swaged round balls in .440 and .445, get some of each and find what works best.

I basically concur with this recommendation and cannot add to it. You can also buy the patches for the roundball. I shot a lot of small game with a 45. Generally the standard staarting laod for your Seneca is a 440 ball and 015 patch.

Sources for ML supplies are Dixie Gun Works, The Log Cabin Shop and Track of the Wolf. Places like Midway and Grafs also handle some and are better if you want to include modern stuff in your order.

DP

cavalrymedic
03-03-2011, 01:36 PM
Excellent. Does anyone have any experience shooting sabot rounds in 45 cal for deer? Is this practical?

Saint
03-10-2011, 07:57 AM
My research tells me that the barrel has a 1:48 twist which is a little slow to stabilize a sabot round. That is a twist rate more suited to roundball or conical. Generally a barrel designed for a sabot will have a twist rate around 1:27. This is more a guideline than a rule however so shoot what works. I know my Hawken will keyhole sabots at that same twist.

Geraldo
03-10-2011, 09:14 AM
So you guys think that the brass "Starburst" on the cheek side is an aftermarket add on? But it seems so natural and professional. It looks great. Well, that explains why I haven't found any pictures exactly the same.

I believe it's called a hunter's star, and you see them on a fair number of long rifle cheekpieces. Always been one of my favorite inlays. At $200, I'd say you did very well.

cavalrymedic
03-10-2011, 11:30 PM
A "Hunter's Star" thanks for the info! You guys have taught me so much!

lead-1
03-11-2011, 04:49 AM
Looks like a nice rifle you got. When I was looking for a muzzleloader for my youngest I was wanting a Seneca for him but in this area they are like hens teeth as far as for sale goes. Plenty of them around but once bought nobody want to get rid of them so in my opinion you got a deal and a half.

Longwood
03-11-2011, 05:40 AM
I tried sabots in three different rifles and a Patriot pistol but found the round ball and patch to be the most accurate except for in a Thompson Hawken which liked the slugs or factory bullets with sabots better but it had a faster rifling (rotation in inches) twist in the barrel for using elongated bullets. You can check the rifling twist but it would be easier to ask someone now that you know what you have. 1 in 60 inches is for pure lead round balls and they are a much better knock down round than any factory slug with sabot. Slug barrels usually have a much faster twist.
They make a round ball sabot too but don't bother with those, balls roll out of the barrel. ??????
With a cloth patch, the patch must be the right thickness or accuracy will suffer.
When you get it shooting right, you will amaze your friends with it.

josper
03-31-2011, 04:04 PM
I don't know why you would mess around with sabots when Patched round ball are as lethal as they are.But then again I just like to keep blackpowder hunting the way it used to be .I hate the high tec inline guns and modern bullets.There is no argument that they shoot good and are effective,just don't care for that.

David LaPell
04-01-2011, 01:23 AM
You have for certain a T/C Seneca. I have the same gun in .45 caliber. Mine loves 60 grains of FFG Pyrodex, a .015 patch and a .440 roundball. at 25 yards its literally one ragged hole. As far as sabots, this gun really works well with the T/C Maxi-balls and the same 60 grain load.