Lee mold or alloy problem

[gunslinger20]

I have a lee 45 colt 300 gr 2 cav (c452-300) g/c Lee mould that casts .451, .4515,.452, so I sent them back to lee. Lee blamed it on pins not lubed enough and not smoaked enough. They also sent a cast boolit suposedly cast with my mould that had been run through the lee sizer die which is the same die I use. the boolit was a perfect .452. I dont know what alloy they used BUT the boolit is so hard it cant be marked at all with a finger nail, it also only weighs 277 gn with g/c installed my boolits weigh 315 gn /w g/c installed, my alloy is 50/50 pb/ww. I still cant get the mould to cast up to be sized down correctly. I ran the sample through the sizer and it stayed .452 so the sizer isnt under size. Looking for some help.

[earplug]

I has a LEE 452 mold that would cast undersize 451 bullets with my mixed lead alloy. Bullets would not shoot and they would lead badly.
My current LEE molds cast slightly oversize .452 and the bullets shoot fine without sizing.
My point is have you tried them as cast?
I was used to always resizing my old LYMAN cast bullets. Found it isn't always needed.

[gunslinger20]

With a g/c it must be run through the sizer to keep the g/c on. I need at least .452 as cast, isnt that consistant as cast.

[snuffy]

If your alloy is 50 pure lead and 50% WW, you're way low on tin. I would get your alloy up to 2% tin, AT LEAST. WW are no more than ½ % tin, so your alloy is less than ¼% tin. That should get you to the diameter you need and will add 3-4 BHN to your boolit hardness.

I'm weak on math, specifically ration and proportions, maybe someone else will come along with how much ,(in grains/weight), tin to toss in whatever size pot you have.

That's my take on your problem, YMMV.

[gunslinger20]

Sorry I forgot to say that I added 2 oz. tin to 10 lbs of alloy may not be enough. these proportions are alittle hard for me to figure also.

[mooman76]

If you want to keep that alloy and get bigger boolits, you need to enlarge the mould some. Either beagle or lament the mould would do the trick easy. Otherwise like snuffy said up your alloy some and it will drop bigger boolits. You could try straight WWs.

[gunslinger20]

Befor lamenting or beagleing I would like to try to do it with alloy if I can, maybe the streight ww will work.

[RobS]

If the mold temp is correct with the 50/50 Lead-WW alloy then additional tin isn't going to help much for diameter purposes. Tin reduces surface tension which helps with mold fill out. If your mold is at the right temp and you are currently getting proper fill out with the alloy you are using there will be little no improvement with additional tin.

Do your bullets have square bases and drive bands etc.? If so then you are probably getting proper fillout. Adding antimony will enlarge your boolit diameter and working with straight WW will do that. I would try straight WW and if that doesn't do it you may have to look into doing a modification to the mold i.e. lementing or beagling.

[gunslinger20]

Thanks Ill try streight ww and im going to call Lee to see if they will tell me what they are useing for alloy but it is probably too hard any way.

[RobS]

It sounds like it has a bunch of antimony in it????? Maybe Lino or they cold have water quenched an alloy with WW's or similar alloy with antimony. Good luck on getting your answer, but maybe if you ask to speak directly to an service tech you'll get a better answer........I always do and will ask for a service tech directly after explaining things with the initial caller.

[gunslinger20]

I think ill ask for the tech that signed the letter of explaination with the returned moulds.

[RobS]

Good plan.

[gunslinger20]

Contacted Lee today and they said they use linotype or close to it. They didnt seem too concearned about a thousandth under size. I told them if thats the case why do they sell the Lee sizer dies then. I was told if I send it back again they would see if they can find a mould slightly over spec if they can. With todays CNC machines over spec moulds is rare. They also said I may want to try lamenting with eather 600 gt lapping, or baking soda or tooth paste. I drilled and taped 2 boolits used baking soda and tooth paste two different times, didnt seem to do anything.

[MtGun44]

50% Pb and 50% WWts should cast just fine. MAYBE a touch of tin may help, but this should
not be necessary most of the time.

Linotype is expensive and way harder than is needed. Smoke is unnecessary and does
reduce the as cast diameter. As to lube, use Bull Plate lube, not the bullet lube that
Lee recommends.

Bill

[gunslinger20]

50% Pb and 50% WWts should cast just fine. MAYBE a touch of tin may help, but this should
not be necessary most of the time.

Linotype is expensive and way harder than is needed. Smoke is unnecessary and does
reduce the as cast diameter. As to lube, use Bull Plate lube, not the bullet lube that
Lee recommends.

Bill

I added 3 oz tin to 5lbs 50/50 (2.5 lbs of each) alloy. There lino cast over.452 because after they g/c and sized the boolits were .452.

[geargnasher]

Lino will cast fat. Pure lead will cast lean. In between, is, well, in between. Lee used Linotype as a cheap excuse around a problem. They know most of us don't use alloys that hard, but they don't care. Lyman has the exact same, sorry, stinking excuse for their worn out cherries and undersized moulds: They say they cast fine with straight Lino or #2, both of which will have a full thousandth to two thousandths over straight wheel weights. If you're cutting your WW in half, your boolits will be even smaller.

If you have a copy of Lyman's cast bullet handbook 3rd edition there is a nice chart in it that shows relative as-cast diameter of boolits from several different calibers with several different alloys, IIRC the spread on a .45 caliber mould from pure to lino was near four thousandths.

Gear

[gunslinger20]

Lino will cast fat. Pure lead will cast lean. In between, is, well, in between. Lee used Linotype as a cheap excuse around a problem. They know most of us don't use alloys that hard, but they don't care. Lyman has the exact same, sorry, stinking excuse for their worn out cherries and undersized moulds: They say they cast fine with straight Lino or #2, both of which will have a full thousandth to two thousandths over straight wheel weights. If you're cutting your WW in half, your boolits will be even smaller.

If you have a copy of Lyman's cast bullet handbook 3rd edition there is a nice chart in it that shows relative as-cast diameter of boolits from several different calibers with several different alloys, IIRC the spread on a .45 caliber mould from pure to lino was near four thousandths.

Gear

I just very reciently got a copy of 3rd edition but have not looked very closely at it as I also have the 4th.
What you are saying Gear is what I have actually experianced but I hadent realised that streight ww cast a little fater. I have used 100% WW but they also cast a little under but I didnt realise that they were a better choice until now. Does water quenching have any affect on size? The boolits are smalest on the seam.
Thanks Gear

[bumpo628]

If your alloy is 50 pure lead and 50% WW, you're way low on tin. I would get your alloy up to 2% tin, AT LEAST. WW are no more than ½ % tin, so your alloy is less than ¼% tin. That should get you to the diameter you need and will add 3-4 BHN to your boolit hardness.

I'm weak on math, specifically ration and proportions, maybe someone else will come along with how much ,(in grains/weight), tin to toss in whatever size pot you have.

Here you go:
5 lbs Pure Lead
5 lbs Clip on WW
1 oz 50/50 solder
= 10 lbs Mixed Alloy (0.56% Tin, 0.99% Antimony, Hardness @ 10)

5 lbs Pure Lead
5 lbs Clip on WW
2 oz 50/50 solder
= 10 lbs Mixed Alloy (0.86% Tin, 0.99% Antimony, Hardness @ 10)

5 lbs Pure Lead
5 lbs Clip on WW
3 oz 50/50 solder
= 10 lbs Mixed Alloy (1.17% Tin, 0.98% Antimony, Hardness @ 10)

5 lbs Pure Lead
5 lbs Clip on WW
4 oz 50/50 solder
= 10 lbs Mixed Alloy (1.46% Tin, 0.98% Antimony, Hardness @ 10)

5 lbs Pure Lead
5 lbs Clip on WW
5 oz 50/50 solder
= 10 lbs Mixed Alloy (1.76% Tin, 0.97% Antimony, Hardness @ 10)

5 lbs Pure Lead
5 lbs Clip on WW
6 oz 50/50 solder
= 10 lbs Mixed Alloy (2.05% Tin, 0.96% Antimony, Hardness @ 10)

[frontstuffers]

Fwiw, I have one of those molds. I cast with straight ww and the only problem that I have had is the occasional "fill out". I tried adding a little tin to the mix and it didn't really help. I finally cleaned the mold as much as possible, sprayed with Arsenal mold treatment, took a toothbrush to it to get rid of the excess graphite and had at it again. It worked for a while but had one chamber that wouldn't fill out. I just used it as a single cavity mold and finished my casting. Cast this way, installed a gc, and size in a Lee .452 sizer. All of the bullets cast this way showed the effects of sizing and came out at .452. The straight ww seems to work good with this mold. If you haven't tried that yet, give it a try. It may just work for you. They shoot good out of my Blackhawk and Redhawk with little to no leading at 1200 fps.

Good luck.

[gunslinger20]

Cast some streight WW I still have a spot on the seam that is .451 but the weight is more in line as to what the mould is supposed to throw 300 gn (305.8 instead of 315) and they look better.
I have my eye on some alloy that is supposed to be 79.5 % pb 2.5 %sn 19.0 % sb that im looking at alloying w pb. to get lyman #2.

[mpmarty]

Why take a perfectly good cast boolit and damage it by forcing it through a "sizer"? If you have a lyman type sizer 45, 450 or 4500 you can seat and crimp gaschecks without sizing the boolit.

[gunslinger20]

I dont have a lyman I have a lee and .451 doesnt work for me.

[MtGun44]

If it is mostly .452 and only .451 "at a spot on the seam", you should be OK, if .452 is what
you need. Try some out.

Bill

[gunslinger20]

The 50/50 shoots very accurately but does have some leading eaven w g/c boolits shooting 19.0gn 2400 ruger BH bisley 7.5 bbl, a stout load but I dont intend to shoot alot of them as it will be used for whitetail deer.

[tackstrp]

i recall that lee uses a lead with high tin mix . no antimony etc. I ask why a sample they sent was under weight. dont know it that answers the orginal question or not.

[HangFireW8]

i recall that lee uses a lead with high tin mix . no antimony etc. I ask why a sample they sent was under weight. dont know it that answers the orginal question or not.

Except for Muzzle Loader and Slug molds, Lee's standard alloy is 1:10 Tin:Lead. They guarantee their molds to be minus Nothing to Plus .003" of the nominal size, which is part of the mold description, that is, if it starts with C309-, it's a gas checked ("C") mold that should drop at least .309 inch.

Lee doesn't use cherries.

I own almost a dozen Lee molds, all recent (post-election) production. About half were wonderful right out of the box. I have had all kinds of issues with the other half, but only one was somewhat undersized. I say somewhat, as it was an 8mm Maximum, and while it was .001" over nominal bore size (coming in at .324"), it was under the drawing size.

It is currently at Lee, we'll see what happens.

-HF

[gunslinger20]

Except for Muzzle Loader and Slug molds, Lee's standard alloy is 1:10 Tin:Lead. They guarantee their molds to be minus Nothing to Plus .003" of the nominal size, which is part of the mold description, that is, if it starts with C309-, it's a gas checked ("C") mold that should drop at least .309 inch.

Lee doesn't use cherries.

I own almost a dozen Lee molds, all recent (post-election) production. About half were wonderful right out of the box. I have had all kinds of issues with the other half, but only one was somewhat undersized. I say somewhat, as it was an 8mm Maximum, and while it was .001" over nominal bore size (coming in at .324"), it was under the drawing size.

It is currently at Lee, we'll see what happens.

-HF

The response below this statement is Lees answer, and it is a G/C mould that is supposed to be .452 after sizeing not .450-.451 befor size which= some spots not sized at alland being under .452. By the way good luck with Lee you will need it.

Contacted Lee today and they said they use linotype or close to it. They didnt seem too concearned about a thousandth under size. I told them if thats the case why do they sell the Lee sizer dies then. I was told if I send it back again they would see if they can find a mould slightly over spec if they can. With todays CNC machines over spec moulds is rare. They also said I may want to try lamenting with eather 600 gt lapping, or baking soda or tooth paste. I drilled and taped 2 boolits used baking soda and tooth paste two different times, didnt seem to do anything.

[HangFireW8]

The tech told you what alloy he used. I'm telling you what Richard Lee designed the molds for.

I used 400 grit to lap for a couple of minutes in a Lee die, and it didn't even get me .0005". It did give me a nice polish, which is all I really wanted. So, I don't imagine tooth paste will get you anywhere, let alone baking soda.

I've sent 3 molds back to Lee before, and one of them a second time. The replacements all run well now. I don't know if you call that "good luck" or not. Lee molds are so inexpensive I can actually return it once or twice and if it works OK after that, it still saves me money, the 6-gang molds especially so. I don't like it, but the value is still there.

I don't blame anyone if they decide to go elsewhere. I wouldn't trade my smooth running Lee 6-bangers for anything, though.

[gunslinger20]

The tech told you what alloy he used. I'm telling you what Richard Lee designed the molds for.

I used 400 grit to lap for a couple of minutes in a Lee die, and it didn't even get me .0005". It did give me a nice polish, which is all I really wanted. So, I don't imagine tooth paste will get you anywhere, let alone baking soda.

I've sent 3 molds back to Lee before, and one of them a second time. The replacements all run well now. I don't know if you call that "good luck" or not. Lee molds are so inexpensive I can actually return it once or twice and if it works OK after that, it still saves me money, the 6-gang molds especially so. I don't like it, but the value is still there.

I don't blame anyone if they decide to go elsewhere. I wouldn't trade my smooth running Lee 6-bangers for anything, though.

Im not trying to start an argument here, if thats what it looks like I am sorry. I didnt lap the dies, the mould or the alloy is the problem that i'm trying to solve.
I dont personally know Richard Lee and I cant read minds, all I know is the tech said Lee presision uses two alloys lino for smoakless and pb. for muzzleloader boolits.

As far as price if they cant make the moulds correctly for that price they should charge more. When any product has to be sent back especially more than once its bad for buisness.

[HangFireW8]

No problem, gunslinger. We agree- I'd rather pay a few bucks more and get a good mold every time.

[gunslinger20]

Sir you are an honorable contributor, keep up the good work.

[goofyoldfart]

Don't get upset Gunslinger, the english language is piss poor for clarity or emphasis. Reread Hang's post and can see where it may look like he was arguing with you but he wasn't. I have many Lee molds and 98% of them dump GOOD bullets. The kicker is most of mine were made when Lee was still Lathe turning. they hit good accuracy. Then they went to CNC and they now only guarantee -0/+3 thousandths:-(. Richard Lee has been retired from the company for 5-10 (?) yrs. his son runs it now. Many years ago, my friend, I used to call up Richard Lee on the phone and trouble shoot/ ask questions about his molds.If you wish to know, the first few calls were while he was in his garage making moulds.:groner: HEHE, tells you how old I am. He was always a gentleman. He couldn't believe the mushrooms that I was getting with his molds, my lead and 44 maggie (BH). sent him several after which we agreed to call my results just damn fine Alchemy.:D

[gunslinger20]

I would be very happy if I could get +3, cant stand -.001 or- .002. I have some very high 19 sb 2.5sn alloy comeing that I should be able to alloy to lyman #2.