what the heck? seating problems

[toddx]

Hello professors, Hope your having a good weekend.
I stayed up late last night having fun doing the final loading of my cast 178gr boolits cast in my Lee 185gr mould.
I set a bullet on the case and brought down the ram. I am getting an indentation ring on the loaded round?
Here are my facts that I know.

.308 rifle load.
I cast with ww's and added 5% tin.
I sized to .309 and .311 both same problem.
Neck sized only my brass and it measeures .307 post sizing.
I did a small case mouth expansion.
Took apart the bullet seating die and cleaned it up. It had a little alox on it. Put it back together and had same problem.

This is only my second time loading cast bullet ammo. First time I had NO problem like this.
There is a slight chance I could have not added tin as I thought I did?

[Rangefinder]

Any way you could get a better photo of what you're talking about? From what I can see in the photo, it actually looks like a paper patched bullet that hasn't been seated yet. Mold with number? photo of the bullet by itself?

[zomby woof]

Your image is a little fuzzy.ii'm guessing your talking about the seating stem leaving a mark on the top of the boolit. I often have to de-burr this stem because they are not made for a fat boolit. You might not be flaring enough and the extra pressure required to force the boolit into the case is causing the seater to mark the top of the boolit.

[montana_charlie]

Provide a picture of a new bullet ready for loading, and one that bears the kind of 'damage' you want to avoid. Then we can see what you are talking about.
CM

[toddx]

Your image is a little fuzzy.ii'm guessing your talking about the seating stem leaving a mark on the top of the boolit. I often have to de-burr this stem because they are not made for a fat boolit. You might not be flaring enough and the extra pressure required to force the boolit into the case is causing the seater to mark the top of the boolit.

yes this is whats happening. I guess I shall continue. I am not awear of a "cowboy" style bullet seater for the .308 that holds the bullet differently for flatter tipped boolits.
I tried flaring a little more and nothing changed.
thanks

[Jim]

Are you charging the case with enough powder to create a compressed charge? If so, that's going to create a lot of resistance to the boolit being seated.

From what I can see, that's an odd looking boolit. I see what looks like a single lube groove just above the case mouth.Like Zomby Woof said, the image is fuzzy, but I don't see any lube grooves other than the one I mentioned.

On a side bar, when I photograph for posting, I take a few shots at slightly different distances to make sure that at least one comes out sharp and clear. If you can rephoto, that would help.

[Lead Fred]

Lee Universal flaring tool ?

[peerlesscowboy]

yes this is whats happening. I guess I shall continue. I am not awear of a "cowboy" style bullet seater for the .308 that holds the bullet differently for flatter tipped boolits.
I tried flaring a little more and nothing changed.
thanks
If you're using RCBS loading dies they have neck expanding dies for cast bullets and various style seating punches available.

[toddx]

OK I got a real camera out this time.

The Mould is a LEE # 90371 185gr double cavity, .312.
You can see a slight ring around the tip of the loaded boolit. I can feel a ridge on the bullet.

Also I need a cleaner way to evenly spread the ALox lube. Spreading them on wax paper as Lee suggest leaves them coated unevenly and with uneven build up on the side that lays on the wax paper. I have noted 45 45 10 and will try that but it seems the boolits need to be set up right for drying?

I loaded 30 or so last week without this issue. I guess this happens from time to time with softer cast bullets?
I hope my accuracy is not messed up.

[white eagle]

I believe the ring you are referring to is caused by the seating stem inside the die
I have made most of mine to be flat filled with lead or something to make the stem flush

[toddx]

I believe the ring you are referring to is caused by the seating stem inside the die
I have made most of mine to be flat filled with lead or something to make the stem flush

I was considering flipping the seating die cone upside down so the flat part opposite end would touch the bullet instead of the seating die cone.
Your idea is good or better.

[Mk42gunner]

I use that boolit cast from straight ACWW and never had that much distortion of the boolit nose. For .308 Winchester loads I am using milsurp brass (LC 64) sized in RCBS full length die, flared with a .30 Carbine flaring die, seated with the standard RCBS seating die. Boolits are .311" diameter, I never measured the inside dia of the case.

It looks like you have a combination of an extremely softr boolit and too musch resistance to seating it.

I would recommend getting or making a lyman type M-die to expand the neck so you have less resistance when seating the boolit.

RObert

[Sully]

I still cant see ANY amount of case mouth flaring to let the bullet go in easily???? At that stage of seating I'd think SOME flare should still be apparent....?

[toddx]

I still cant see ANY amount of case mouth flaring to let the bullet go in easily???? At that stage of seating I'd think SOME flare should still be apparent....?

The pic you see is a loade round with a small case mouth expansion. I am going back through the brass and making them bigger. The indention has decreased greatly but is till there. The ring looks bigger than it is due to the ALox gathering around it.
Thanks

[jblee10]

Maybe a Lyman M die would help? What is the BHN of your boolits?

[geargnasher]

If your alloy (which is WAY over-tinned, by the way) hasn't had a chance to age a couple of weeks, then it might be too soft still to handle seating. The boolit ought to go into that .307" case neck sized .309" with no problems. .002" neck tension or a bit less is about right IME.

If the deformation is caused by lube accumulation, try switching to 45/45/10 lube from the LLA, much easier to work with and no accumulation in the seating die. See the sticky by Recluse in the lube forum.

Get yourself an "M" neck expander die in .30 caliber, it will ensure that the case neck is correctly sized to accept your cast boolits. It has a stepped spud like a pistol expander which flares, expands a large "starter" opening, and expands the remainder of the case neck to a couple thousandths under nominal for the caliber.

Gear

Gear

[toddx]

I did not know about waiting a couple weeks to load them.
I am supposing my BHN is 12 but I don't know.
45 45 10 will be part of my next round of loading.
If that does not solve it then the M die might have to be purchased.
Thanks.

[geargnasher]

Todd, here's an example of age hardening: I cast some boolits with clip-on WW +1% tin that comes out to about 13.4 bhn after a month. Tested as soon as they cooled from casting, I got 8.5 bhn. The next day they were 10.0. After a week they were 12. After a month they has stabilized to around 13.4. It's basically a Logarithmic curve. Exact composition and method of cooling has a large effect on how long the final hardening process takes, but air-cooled wheel weights usually are ready to shoot in a couple of weeks.

Gear

[mpmarty]

Remove the seating stem and mix up some JB Weld. Fill the stem with the JB and place a cast boolit nose in it after smearing on some oil to keep the boolit from sticking to the JB after the stuff hardens you will no longer have this problem.

[montana_charlie]

Remove the seating stem and mix up some JB Weld. Fill the stem with the JB and place a cast boolit nose in it after smearing on some oil to keep the boolit from sticking to the JB after the stuff hardens you will no longer have this problem.
You CAN use hot glue instead of JB Weld.
The glue sets up faster, and it's removable.

CM

[onondaga]

Your photo shows you are using no gas check on a bullet designed for a gas check. The smaller shank area at the bullet base for the gas check will easily pass the case mouth with no flair but you are hitting a bump at the at the first driving band touching the case mouth. With the bullet partially in and then hitting that bump you are getting a surge in resistance and the seating plug is marking your bullet. Significant flair of the case mouth may help. Try actually measuring your flair amount. Mike the case mouth O.D. before and after flair. It would be nice to get .010 or more flair. The I.D of the flair needs to be larger than the diameter of the first driving band that is hanging up.

A Lyman "M" die would help by expanding the whole neck inside diameter and flaring the case mouth in one pass. Lee also offers custom size expand/de-cap pins for their sizing dies. The right size expander pin for cast bullets is .001-.002 smaller than the bullet for me. I do it that way with Lee dies and use their Universal Expander Die for all my case mouth flaring.

That bump of hitting the driving band on the case mouth may at times be enough to tip the bullet and rumple your case mouth ruining the brass also, so, don't be surprised if you ruin some brass before you get a handle on your inside neck diameter and start flaring sufficiently.

Gary

[onondaga]

After applying tumble lube and tumbling, are your bullets still wet and dripping on the wax paper after 1 hour? That means you have used way too much lube. An easy remedy I use then, as I frequently make the same mistake, is to gather up the ends of the wax paper and pour the bullets back into the tumbling container. Put down some fresh wax paper, then re-tumble your bullets for 30 seconds with no additional lube. Dump them out onto the fresh wax paper and there will be no more excess lube and they will dry much more quickly.

OH! By the way, if you are married, get your own roll of wax paper. Finger prints of lube all over the wax paper box from the kitchen is grounds for "THE LOOK" and spirited discussion.

Gary

[onondaga]

Flattening the seating stem causes the bullets to be seated the flat pushing the bullet in. This will give you very consistent LOA if you measure LOA from bullet tip to case head , but the correct way to measure LOA is from the ogive to the case head. The flattened seating plug will deform bullet tips and correct measurement of the LOA will be all over the place according to the amount of bullet deformation you have caused with tip seating of your cast bullets.

I advise you to fix the seating problems with compatible neck ID and case mouth flair, then the seating problems will disappear.

Mineral spirits or WD40 and brushing will clean bullet lube from seating die parts.


Gary

[toddx]

Todd, here's an example of age hardening: I cast some boolits with clip-on WW +1% tin that comes out to about 13.4 bhn after a month. Tested as soon as they cooled from casting, I got 8.5 bhn. The next day they were 10.0. After a week they were 12. After a month they has stabilized to around 13.4. It's basically a Logarithmic curve. Exact composition and method of cooling has a large effect on how long the final hardening process takes, but air-cooled wheel weights usually are ready to shoot in a couple of weeks.

Gear
Gear, thanks for the info here. Now I have an excuse to cast even more boolits! Makes sense what you are saying. Thanks.
Todd

[toddx]

Flattening the seating stem causes the bullets to be seated the flat pushing the bullet in. This will give you very consistent LOA if you measure LOA from bullet tip to case head , but the correct way to measure LOA is from the ogive to the case head. The flattened seating plug will deform bullet tips and correct measurement of the LOA will be all over the place according to the amount of bullet deformation you have caused with tip seating of your cast bullets.

I advise you to fix the seating problems with compatible neck ID and case mouth flair, then the seating problems will disappear.

Mineral spirits or WD40 and brushing will clean bullet lube from seating die parts.


Gary
I almost enjoy screwing this stuff up just so I can learn more about casting.
I think I am over lubing some bullets and making things gummy. The lube is always tacky to the touch. Is it worth it to place each boolit up right to dry.
Yes this is a GC boolit but am told I can shoot them without a GC?
Its funny I loaded up some pretty fresh boolits on my first cast/loading last week and had no problems. I have enlarged the case mouth and things are better but the indention is just barely there on the bullet tip. I may just need to wait the 2 weeks and get them harder and therefore less likely to deform when seating.
Thanks a boolit.
T

[onondaga]

You are doing fine---it is a lot to take in. I'm still learning since 1957.

Try the re-tumbling when they are still wet after an hour, the excess has dripped onto the wax paper.. The re-tumbling and new wax paper really helps. I have changed to the 45:45:10 lube , It dries in minutes and is not tacky at all. Another big plus is that the 45:45:10 doesn't have the gloppy poop brown color! I still put too much on almost every time and wind up re-tumbling, but it dries so much faster.

I think I make the error because I want enough lube when I am tumbling so that it goes into the grooves and over do it.

Gary

[rond]

You could try a little more chamfer on the inside of the case mouth. I don't worry about even lubing when I tumble lube, the bullet spins down the bore.