WW too hard for hunting?

[doc25]

Someone just told me recently that pure WW will be too hard for a hunting bullet. Is this true? I would be shooting out of a .303 brit.

[44man]

It depends on the caliber. Smaller boolits need to expand. From about .41 up, a large meplat will need no expansion. Smaller bores will just poke a small hole in the deer and you could lose them. I would use a soft boolit in the .303 and I would not use a pointed one either.

[Bass Ackward]

Heck NO!!!!

Next time you see that fella ask him to see if your shoes are untied. When he bends over to look, whack him hard as you can on the back of the head. That way we can stop those kind a rumors. :grin:

Or if that is a little too much for ya, you can simply recommend this board for an education.

[waksupi]

I've killed several bucks with the 6.5X55 with an aircooled bullet. Excellent wound channel, and they didn't go far at all. Pretty much anything I have shot with cast, has gone maybe 25 yards tops. I've used .30 cal cast on deer. elk, and antelope. Killed them just fine. I prefer .35 and up, because they are easier to load with fat fingers. The .358 win has worked good on deer, elk, and bison so far.
that guy has a case of cranial inversion within the circular muscle.

[PatMarlin]

"cranial inversion within the circular muscle".


:mrgreen:


...

[44man]

I have an idea where the WW's are made makes a difference. I get very hard boolits from them. Air cooled have been shot into water jugs and through 1 foot diameter trees and recovered boolits show almost zero deformation. I have had 50 straight shots from a 30-30 Contender pass all the way through 13" of an oak log. I recovered one boolit that turned and was sticking up out of the top. It looked like it was unfired.
I would NOT shoot deer with them and would add some pure lead first.
Years ago I helped drag out a deer with 6 holes through the chest that I could cover with my hand. Every shot from a 30-06 knocked the deer down and it would get up and run. It was tracked for miles in the snow and the sixth shot kept it down. I do NOT like pencil holes in deer! The bullets were too tough.
It is up to you if you want to shoot game with hard boolits, personally I want either a large meplat or some nose expansion. If your WW metal expands, then I can't argue.
I can't make a blanket statement and neither should any of you. It is up to each to test for himself. One lost animal is one too many.
It would be like me telling all of you that you must only use my loads in your gun, kind of silly, don't you think? There are just too many different alloys out there.

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=44man;120864]

1. I have an idea where the WW's are made makes a difference. I get very hard boolits from them. Air cooled have been shot into water jugs and through 1 foot diameter trees and recovered boolits show almost zero deformation.

2. I do NOT like pencil holes in deer!


44,

1. Not only where but when.

2. Just a minute. Don't you shoot long pencils with feathers on one end and a sharp point on ta other? :grin:

[waksupi]

I will say, all of my hunting boolits have big flat noses on them. Only thing close to a failure was many years ago, with a round nose bullet, and it WAS one of those pencil type holes. Wrong bullet for the job. The deer did go over a hundred yards before dying.

[44man]

Bass, yup, I do use them sticks but they make HUGE holes. They actually can kill faster then most boolits.

[357maximum]

Bass, yup, I do use them sticks but they make HUGE holes. They actually can kill faster then most boolits.



Truer words have never been spoken...I watch most my arrow kills die within 60 to 110 yards...sometime far less...A boolit may drop an animal quicker...but if you watch closely they live for the same few seconds....

Personally I use mostly 35 caliber boolits....they do require some expansion to make me sleep well at night....from now on my 35 caliber hunting alloy will be the 50/50 ww/pb water dropped alloy that our mad boolit designer turned me onto...Proably not neccessary in some of your guys' cannons,,but in my 35 cals it will be all I ever use...this is not an alloy to go stem to stern...but on reasonable shots it is perfect for my uses on our 125 to 180 pound dressed weight whitetail...

[44man]

Boolit weight, like arrow weight, will penetrate. Even if the boolit expands a little, the heavy one will not stop until it hits dirt. I really like two holes in deer.

[357maximum]

Boolit weight, like arrow weight, will penetrate. Even if the boolit expands a little, the heavy one will not stop until it hits dirt. I really like two holes in deer.


Proably 1/2 my gun kills only had one hole in em....still very dead and still easy to find...if they moved after the shot at all...I like my boolits to perform just like my favorite j-bullets....Horn XTP....on thin skinned game you simply do not need to penetrate the moon...get in ,expand and get er done...has always worked for me...the only j-word I ever saw over expand was the speer golddot...that opens waay to easy....It killed the animal...but I would not use one again...

My arrows are 2213 superlights with 100 grain cut on impact heads and only 25 1/2 inches long...I have never failed to penetrate far enough if not completely through...and my bow is only 78 pounds ,,,deer are thin pieces of meat and they do not wear kevlar


More than one way to kill a cat...provided you take resonable shots...and we all have different thoughts on the matter......now if I were after waterbuffalo...my thoughts would differ completely...

We stand on different sides of the weight/penetration issue that is apparent and I respect that...to each their own...I do not like my deer shot with a darning needle, some do...whatever works for said person...is way fine with me...p.

Michael

[44man]

In the last three years I have killed or found 5 deer with arrow ends in them. Some were healthy and were healed but I almost cut myself when gutting the deer. Most shafts were about 6-1/2" long, in the chest cavity. I kept two and one has a 100 gr Muzzy, the other a 100 gr Thunderhead. Very, very thin, light shafts. One is carbon, the other aluminum.
The other deer, I gave away and the guys butchering were almost injured on the broadheads.
Now that is just ME finding them. How many more are crippled and lost?
Sorry, but I will always use the heaviest arrow my bows will shoot and after around 225 bow kills, I know what works even if the bow only shoots 200 FPS.
I only use heavy flat nose boolits with my revolvers too.
A bullet that blows up in a deer from a high power rifle will sure kill but the meat destruction is not something I want to deal with. I like to butcher right to the holes. I gave up rifles entirely because of the mess. My neighbor just lost another buck shot with a 7mm mag. He said there was a huge hole in the shoulder. In the years I have known him, he has lost more deer with that magnum then I can count.
I now estimate that I have killed close to 360 deer with every kind of gun and caliber plus bows. You can keep your bullets that blow up! You can keep your light arrows! There is no one on earth that can make me go light and fast. Just deep enough to kill is a bunch of lost ones too.

[357maximum]

In the last three years I have killed or found 5 deer with arrow ends in them. Some were healthy and were healed but I almost cut myself when gutting the deer. Most shafts were about 6-1/2" long, in the chest cavity. I kept two and one has a 100 gr Muzzy, the other a 100 gr Thunderhead. Very, very thin, light shafts. One is carbon, the other aluminum.
The other deer, I gave away and the guys butchering were almost injured on the broadheads.
Now that is just ME finding them. How many more are crippled and lost?
Sorry, but I will always use the heaviest arrow my bows will shoot and after around 225 bow kills, I know what works even if the bow only shoots 200 FPS.
I only use heavy flat nose boolits with my revolvers too.
A bullet that blows up in a deer from a high power rifle will sure kill but the meat destruction is not something I want to deal with. I like to butcher right to the holes. I gave up rifles entirely because of the mess. My neighbor just lost another buck shot with a 7mm mag. He said there was a huge hole in the shoulder. In the years I have known him, he has lost more deer with that magnum then I can count.
I now estimate that I have killed close to 360 deer with every kind of gun and caliber plus bows. You can keep your bullets that blow up! You can keep your light arrows! There is no one on earth that can make me go light and fast. Just deep enough to kill is a bunch of lost ones too.


I admit to only having killed 27 bucks and 4 does....But then again I am only old enough to have hunted 16 seasons with a two buck limit...I only take ethical shots...If I am not comfortable to a 100% of a kill ...the trigger do not wiggle...Now would I have a less restrained person hunt with some of my equipment....no...I learned early on that if you are unwilling to wait for the right shot...then you should carry a mortar...I simply do not need it...this was not meant to be a pissin contest...All was just trying to answer a mans question.....

Are ww too hard for hunting??...no...but not neccessary either if you are willing to not try and reverse the animals gastrointestinal flow...

as far as the arrows you find...sounds like you have someone locally who needs a shooting and anatomy lesson...They are out there,,, I understand your grief over it...I have seen it too....I am not one of those people....take my word on that....I would not hesitate to deer hunt with a 22 magnum...but I realize the "why" in why it is illegal...some people have no restraint...I did not figure most of the members here to fall into that category...I hold most of em way above the average "hunter"..

as far as destroying meat...not hardly...My last kill was high in the shoulders with my 357 max pistol...you could close your hand around the amount of meat lost ....


Placement is far more important than anything else...period...being able to penetrate through more than 18 inches of animal is simply putting yourself into a mental position to take unethical shots...right from the get go...


Michael

[0802]

So would a Lee 457-405 HP cast with pure WW be OK for deer?

[357maximum]

So would a Lee 457-405 HP cast with pure WW be OK for deer?

Yes...but I would aircool them not water quench...how many millions of buffalo were killed with a pure lead slug of similar size?

[Ricochet]

I only take ethical shots...If I am not comfortable to a 100% of a kill ...the trigger do not wiggle...Now would I have a less restrained person hunt with some of my equipment....no...I learned early on that if you are unwilling to wait for the right shot...

Placement is far more important than anything else...period...being able to penetrate through more than 18 inches of animal is simply putting yourself into a mental position to take unethical shots...right from the get go...

Absolutely!

I get quite irritated reading the posts on gun boards from folks who insist that only the copper "premium" bullets can be used now, that the lead core jacketed bullets don't penetrate enough for reliable killing. and of course those folks wouldn't even consider a cast boolit. But as you point out, those people think it's OK to take a "Texas heart shot." I think someone who'd deliberately shoot an unwounded animal in the butt is an a__hole himself. If you can't get a clear, good shot, you need to hold your fire.

[44man]

At least all of you think the way I do about ethical shots. There is no reason at all to take a bad shot on ANY animal. However, when through the lungs or heart, I still like a hole all the way through. I know someone that will not use any other bullet then the Nosler Ballistic tip because he wants the deer to drop in it's spot every shot. You would not believe the deer he loses and the mess in the ones he recovers. One I helped him find had no shoulder left and the bullet just barely made the boiler room. He thinks cast boolits are junk even though I never lose a deer.
Why do all of you think I only look for the most accurate boolit and load that can be had? To make sure I hit where I aim, thats why! I let piles of deer walk if I can't get the perfect shot. I also want the perfect boolit, no questions asked.
When I experiment, it is with a larger meplat and it paid off on this last deer when she dropped in her tracks and never wiggled. Yes, the boolit went all the way through and is so deep in the ground I can't find it. Am I wrong? Should I use a boolit that stays in the deer? WHY???? I have no bloodshot meat either.
With all of the deer I have killed with muzzle loaders and round balls, I only recovered one ball that smashed the shoulders and spine. Do any of you think I should have found something that would have stayed in the deer? Should I use arrows that stick in halfway? No, guys, you do what you want, I will stick with my way. Perfect shots, perfect loads, perfect boolits and two holes. I can't stand crippled or lost deer.
I bet I will find 10 or more lost deer this spring when hunting mushrooms. I did last spring and it is in a very small area. I am afraid to expand my walking to see the carnage. It is sickening! Magnums and explosive bullets suck.
And 357, those arrows were in the chest cavity--all of them. A few very close to the heart. cut one lung only and the deer can be lost. Cut both and they are stew and steaks. This is not a pissing match, only fact. That little, soft whitetail is TOUGH! Give him the credit he deserves.

[357maximum]

Sounds like someone needs a tracking lesson also....and by the way I was not talking explosive boolits..I was talking expanding boolits...huge difference B.T.W..




Michael

[mainiac]

I admit to only having killed 27 bucks and 4 does....But then again I am only old enough to have hunted 16 seasons with a two buck limit...I only take ethical shots...If I am not comfortable to a 100% of a kill ...the trigger do not wiggle...Now would I have a less restrained person hunt with some of my equipment....no...I learned early on that if you are unwilling to wait for the right shot...then you should carry a mortar...I simply do not need it...this was not meant to be a pissin contest...All was just trying to answer a mans question.....

Are ww too hard for hunting??...no...but not neccessary either if you are willing to not try and reverse the animals gastrointestinal flow...

as far as the arrows you find...sounds like you have someone locally who needs a shooting and anatomy lesson...They are out there,,, I understand your grief over it...I have seen it too....I am not one of those people....take my word on that....I would not hesitate to deer hunt with a 22 magnum...but I realize the "why" in why it is illegal...some people have no restraint...I did not figure most of the members here to fall into that category...I hold most of em way above the average "hunter"..

as far as destroying meat...not hardly...My last kill was high in the shoulders with my 357 max pistol...you could close your hand around the amount of meat lost ....


Placement is far more important than anything else...period...being able to penetrate through more than 18 inches of animal is simply putting yourself into a mental position to take unethical shots...right from the get go...


Michael

.22 mags are legal here in maine, im sad to report, along with the dam buckshot!

[357maximum]

.22 mags are legal here in maine, im sad to report, along with the dam buckshot!

I am with you on the buckshot thing...In the "RIGHT" hands it can prove right deadly,,,however far to many people think it was invented for 200 yards...which it obviously was not...it is leagal here too...I can hear them trying to cripple deer to death in the state land several miles to my south....

I can usually tell you which way the critter is running just from the reports alone...bangity ..bang... bang...ooh that one is running...bangity... bang ...bang ...bang ...yep he is headed west...ooh six shots at a slower cadence...must be a mossberg in the bunch.... boom.... boomity.... boom still going west....then the final boom he made it to someone with a proper slug gun or muzzleloader...bet that is one pre ground critter...blasphemy I say ...outlaw the shtuff, and let us have straight walled rifles or non magnum guns if you must control our shot distance and bullet travel range....would make far more sense...my pistol is legal (357 max) but my 35 remington 336 is not...tell me the difference ballistically...please One shot from a rifle will always be safer than 40 rounds of buckshot whzzing everywhere...but my opinion do not account for much...

A modern inline muzzleloader will do everything a 444 or 45/70 will do as far as distance a bullet will travel...but that is still legal...our beauracratic wepons for hunting laws make absolutely no sense to me whatever...maybe they would if I was toting 6 rounds of buckshot and willing to cripple my buck to death...I guess I will never understand...


as far as the .22 mag....would I use it if legal....no...but I would not feel crippled if I had to...I know second hand how deadly it can be in the right persons hands...but there are alot more...wrong hands...than there will ever be right hands...so thank god they got that one right...


Rant over

Michael

[44man]

Hitting an animal with a bullet that can cause massive damage will have very rough, torn meat and tissue. Those edges will seal together and stop bleeding much, much faster then a clean cut. After 100 yd's forget about finding a blood trail. Forget about trailing tracks around here! There are so many tracks and trails that if anyone can stay on one deer for ten yd's with no blood, he should be able to catch the deer by hand. Your .357 Max is not in that class and is a fine caliber so don't take it personal.
My gripe is the .300 or 7mm mag made for extremely long shots with the lighter bullets or very large game with heavy bullets that might not open on small deer. Then the guy shoots deer at 20 yd's! Only two things can happen, instant mush or a lost deer. That is as bad as using a .22 or other inadiquate gun. Yeah, you can kill a deer with it, but is it ethical? What is wrong with a 30-30 or a good revolver, or a revolver round in a lever gun? Being overgunned is the same as being undergunned. These guys think the big cannon is magic and will shoot through the entire woods and hit a deer. I have never been able to tell these guys that you can't shoot ANYTHING through those branches, not even a shotgun slug.
Saying that the use of too small a gun or too fast and light of an arrow forces you to take only perfect shots is not ethical either! In other words you say every deer will stand still and perfectly broadside at 20 yd's. There will never be a wind or unseen twig in the way. Deer do not move at all, never take a step at the wrong moment when the trigger breaks, will never shift a leg to move a bone in the way. Will never drop down to load it's legs at the sound of a bow. Nothing in the woods will ever alert the deer and make it jump and run just as you shoot. Yes, a perfect world. The only way it would be perfect is to stick up a paper deer.
It would be like turkey hunting with a .22 and only shooting them in the eye---oh thats right, they never move their heads! Have any of you ever tried to shoot a chicken in the head with a .22? Best not miss the first shot or you will go through a whole brick and wear yourself out chasing that chicken through the woods.
There have been discussions from the time of the very first gun as to what is the best one. Why are there so many different kinds of guns and bullets? It is so the proper one can be matched to the game and distance hunted. None of you would take a 30-30 to shoot elk at 400 yd's but it is a wonderful woods rifle for deer. I don't believe any of you would hunt deer with a .38 and wadcutters but then, I could be wrong. Some might like the .25 auto too.

[357maximum]

I wish I had saved the shoulder blades and spine from that 128 incher I shot with my light puny little arrow. He did move a touch at the shot...did not matter..the arrow covered the distance fast enough to make his efforts NIL... Like I originally said "I can see we are on different sides of the weight versus velocity issue, and I respect that"..

[Bass Ackward]

Emotional issue for sure. And when this one arises, it usually causes us to .... create positions and draw lines. This is OK, but not that. The problem is that we are all not so good at doing this. This is a large reason why some states have the firearms laws that they do because someone made the mistake that "they" knew. And this is why we lose sight of just what our fore fathers did with black powder and lead.

I understand all sides on this because I have been a big proponent of this and formed biases that took far too long to change. All I can tell you is, that in the right hands, with the right attitude, more options are available for successful use. For a guy with less experience or one that can't muster the disipline, they are going to need more and .... often it still won't be enough. That's why we are handed down statements like, shot placement. The next big push might be a government hunting test that you have to qualify with what you want to shoot. Won't that simply be lovely?

[44man]

You are right Bass, I never say it is wrong as long as the equipment is used properly no matter what is chosen. I am only against the misuse because a guy will think his gun is so powerful that it makes up for shot placement or he thinks his arrow is so fast that a deer can't move fast enough.
Almost every hunter---remember I said HUNTER--- not one of us that would shoot every second of every day if we could, but almost every hunter around here will never take out his gun until opening day. Then he will shoot at every running deer in the thick brush and trees or clear across fields when he only had the gun sighted for 100 yd's or less and has never shot the gun far before. Some actually never go farther then the bore sighting the store did to his rifle! (Don't laugh, I have seen it.)
I also have no gripe with the archer that knows his equipment and shoots all the time, only those that wait for opening morning before dusting off his bow.
I get the feeling that they just throw lead at every single deer, shoot 40 or 60 shots with the hope one will finally find meat. My neighbor has already seen a bunch of limping deer in his woods.
I guess I just have to vent a little against those boobs.
Don't get the idea I was talking about anyone here! Those I talk about don't come to these discussions and can't be taught or instructed by anyone.
357, I was not harping on you either and consider you are one of us that knows what he is doing but you sure understand what I am trying to say. I have invited a hundred guys to come and shoot both archery and their guns and have not seen a single one of them yet. Only my gun nut friends come out to shoot, none of the so called hunters ever do.
We shoot all the time, mainly for the purpose of hunting. Maybe I just expect too much from the average guy that buys one box of bullets and it lasts him for a season before he buys more. He is also scared to death of the recoil!

[swheeler]

Are WW to hard for hunting? I would have to say absolutely NOT. # 1 is boolit placement, #2 penetration, #3 expansion -just my opinion. It is nice to have large enough caliber to intiate shock, or a boolit to expand and create a large deep wound channel, BUT a deer with a "pencil hole" thru both lungs, and an entrance and exit hole is a dead deer, and a pencil hole thru the heart is a dead deer faster. And a gut shot, leg shot, or rump shot animal is a wounded animal no matter what boolit or gun you are using. Shot placement is everything, just ask Karmojo(sp) Bell. Oops he's dead, sorry about that.

[357maximum]

I believe we are all on the same page here...some of us just choose to read it a bit different....And yes it is an emotional issue, for me anyway...without seeming to toot your own horn..how do you casually tell a fellow shootist...."I know MY sh uff". Like I originally said most of the members here are leaps and bounds above the rest of the herd...

Federal hunter qualification...They would f it all up...but if somehow they could do it from a shooters point of view...the qualification idea is not too bad, However they would make it a big hassle and we would lose support/hunters because of it ..so it would simply be all bad.....

My father in law and I have actually instituted our version of archer qualification...if you cannot shoot well..up to our standards...you simply do not hang your hat there.....pretty simple and we have yet to make someone leave,,but it does make some of his nephews shoot their bow regularly, when they would not otherwise...I can pass our 20 yard qualification back to 100 plus yards...just for your info there 44..I would never shoot a live deer,, no where near that distance...but If the conditions were perfect...or I was hungry to death..I would eat venison...I have proved it time and again on foam....and in 3-d competiton I normally score in and around 275 to 293 .

I really think the smaller McKenzie type deer targets are the best thing to ever happen to the weekend "archer" at least with that type of target they get used to shooting where they are supposed to as opposed to shooting at the whole animal....Plus the McKenzies vitals are lower than actually required for a kill so once a guy gets used to shooting there he aims there...and if he is a decent shot even if the deer squats to move a bit...the arrow still lands in the lungs....I would place Mr. McKenzie at the top of the heap when it comes to archery innovations...alot more realistic than shooting at a bale of straw...

20 yards= all 10 shots into 5 ring (large outline of heart area)
30 yards all 10 shots in the 3 ring (outline of lungs)


Shoot straight
Michael

[44man]

357, you are my type of guy! It sounds like you are doing great things.

[357maximum]

357, you are my type of guy! It sounds like you are doing great things.


44 You sound alright yourself....Is it not amazing what two grown[smilie=1: men are willing to argue..err... discuss heatedly?...We apparently both share similar yet different ideas,,,similar in spirit..just a bit different in their delivery...

Michael

[snowtigger]

My dad killed more moose than I can count. He killed them from 50 yards out to a measured 390 yards. Virtually all those moose fell to a7.7 Jap rechambered to .308 win. I never saw him use more than one shot with his .308 and 180 grain Winchester Silvertips.
Then, he came into a Finnish Sako in 7mm Rem mag. Man, it was a thing of beauty. His first scoped rifle. It was wearing a Redfield Widefield, a good scope at the time.
He was kinda proud of that rifle. Until he took it moose hunting. I don't know what kind of ammo it had in it, he didn't handload.
He and a friend of ours were in a boat and spotted a moose at about 30 yards. Up goes that Sako and bang! Bang!Bang! The moose is still running. The other guy only had a '94 Winchester in 30/30. One shot and the moose went head over heels.
When the moose was gutted, they found three pencil holes through the lungs, no expansion. Evidently the bullets failed to hit anything hard enough to expand them. The 30/30 had hit the bull in the neck, breaking his spine.
That moose would, in all probability, have died with three holes through both lungs, but how far would it have gone first?
From then on, that Sako had a place of prominence in the gun cabinet, where it stayed.
The old Jap was eventually replaced by a model 100, in .308 win. When Dad died, as the oldest son, I got first choice of his rifles. That Model 100 shoots as good today as it did when it killed it's last moose.
He's been gone for fourteen years now, I still miss him. There are probably better marksmen with a rifle, but I've never met one. My younger brother comes close.

[BD]

I guess I'm in both camps. I like a Large meplat on a medium heavy cast bullet for handguns. WW have always worked just fine. The 265 gr. WFNs I shoot in the .44mag have completely penetrated everything I've shot with them, and broken through anything they encountered on the way. Kills are not always instant but the animal is generally down. I killed a boar with that load last week, DRT. On open ground up north I use a .270 WBY mag with 150 grain Nosler partitions. I shoot'em through the lungs just behind the front shoulder and I've never had an animal take a step after the hit. I've never needed more than one shot. It makes a pencil hole going in and a one inch diameter hole clear through. No meat is lost but the lungs are jelly. On deer I can generally see a fine red mist in the air when the scope comes back down on target, and the deer is down flat. Caribou just stop and lock their legs, for 5 or ten seconds you wonder if you could have missed them, then they collapse.

Both systems work just fine, the WBY allows me to reach out quite a bit farther and makes exact range estimation less critical, the cast loads in an iron sighted pistol are more satisfying to me. I think a lot of hunters overlook the importance of sectional density, as well as the bullet characteristics required in both cases. For years there just weren't factory loadings available with bullets which would hold up to the velocities the mags produced. And you couldn't go into your local shop and by a heavy cast load for your .44 either. The original WBY factory stuff was some of the worst in this regard. These days the bullet choices are out there to get it done right, even in the store bought stuff.
BD

[Larry Gibson]

Are WW to hard for hunting? I would have to say absolutely NOT. # 1 is boolit placement, #2 penetration, #3 expansion -just my opinion.

This is very true with any cartridge and any bullet. However, I have shot deer (among other things) with all types of bullets from FMJs through varmint bullets. All kill deer if #s 1 and 2 are met. For me with #s 1 and 2 remaining constant it is #3 that i am paying more and more attention to. Given equal placement cast bullets that expand within the animal kill the animal quicker most often. Perhaps I am getting softer in my old age but I do not like to see the animal I shoot take time to die. I have been shooting deer with my own cast bullets since '68. Shot numerous deer before that but it was with a .38 Special, a .22LR and a 30-30 with Speer 170 gr bullets. In '68 I killed 2 deer with a 311410HP out of a .30 carbine. The bullets were cast of WWs. I subsequently built a .308 bolt action (on a M93 Mauser before I knew how dangerous that was, shot out two barrels in .308 on it and never did find the "danger") and used 311041HPs on several deer. I also killed several others with the .30 Carbine. These were cast of WWs and air cooled. Of the couple recovered bullets it was found the noses had shattered off. I made an adapter that allowed solid nosed bullets to be cast. These also killed deer but just not as fast (heart lung shots). I then began experimenting with softer alloys and shortened the HP stem. These 311041 HP bullets of softer more maleable alloy and with a shorter HP kill ever bit as quickly as their jacked counterparts. Velocity across the screens is around 2000 fps BTW out of 30-30, 308 and '06s.

Also back then I was in LE in NE Oregon and had the opportunity to shoot quite a few injured deer, elk and other animals. I gained appreciable knowledge on different types of bullets out of several different handgun cartridges. A large meplat on a bullet does make it kill better than a similar weight RN bullet. The fast stepping medium light weight HPs almost always killed the best. I also had built my 45-70 Siamese Mauser rifle during this time. I quickly found that even soft RN bullets of large caliber were not very quick killers. Yes they killed (killed 2 deer with one shot once) but not as well as a bullet with a meplat or one that expanded.

Bullets cast of WWs back then were harder than they are today. It appears bullets of WWs these days do offer some expansion. But like many I still blend my own softer alloy for hunting bullets. I believe it is 357Maximum that has a thread on the Hunting forum about a nice deer he shot with WW + lead alloy. The picture of the recovered bullet looked like it expanded nicely in the deer. That shot met the criteria of #s 1, 2 and 3 and resulted in a quick and nice kill. That is what I strive for.

To answer the question; yes, WW bullets will kill deer. The same bullets cast of softer alloy given the same bullet placement will, most often, kill them quicker.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Larry, thank you for explaining it as you did. Those are my feelings completely. I hate to see deer go too far even if they die.
All that is needed is for the nose to open enough to equal a large, flat meplat. We don't need exposive boolits but real hard pointy boolits would never be my choice. Now a nice meplat on any boolit should work OK but for the smaller bores, I would like a little expansion. Sometimes even water dropped WW's will expand with enough velocity but we have to worry about the nose shattering like you explained. It is just too easy to add some pure lead and not worry about results. Confidence in the boolit is as important as making a good shot and since we can control every bit of boolit making and performance, we are ahead of all those so called hunters. You will not believe the shots I heard this morning, many from the same spots which means lost, crippled or missed deer.
Maybe we do need a school for hunters other then a hunter safety class.

[MT Gianni]

Great story, Snowtiger. Gianni

[Ricochet]

Last night I cast some HBC boolits out of water dropped WW. I've been having trouble with this mould springing open slightly at the bottom of the blocks, unintentionally "Beagling" the nose of the boolit and sometimes making bad fins. (I can't see what the problem is. I'm just going to have to give it a thorough cleaning and lubrication and start over.) A few of the finned boolits I thought usable with sizing, as they just had a trace of finning at the nose, so I was scraping the fins off with my nails. That metal right after water dropping, before it had time to age harden, was remarkably malleable and ductile. It would stretch when I pulled on a thin fin. Kind of reminded me of pulling on bubble gum. Wasn't brittle at all. I think the softer alloys made of blended WW and soft lead, water quenched, are good prospects for expanding boolits.

[wmitty]

It's obvious that some writing here have formed there opinions based on a great deal of hunting experience where a large number of animals have been taken. I don't have this experience and I'd like to express my appreciation to those who have and have chosen to share the knowledge they have gained with the rest of us! As the saying goes " One test is worth a thousand expert opinions".

[MikeSSS]

I shot a flying dragon last weekend with a water quenched wheel weight cast boolit shot from my M1 Garand. The load was 16 gr of 2400.

He was dead right there. All I found was the tail and back of the thorax with one rear wing attached and there was another wing on the ground.

The boolit went more than a foot into the soft, sandy, damp soil, of a channel that runs into the pond. When I dug the boolit out all I got was the back half with the gas check still attached. The boolit was sort of mushroomed where it had broken apart. No rocks or hard objects were found. Hmmmm. I expected to dig out the whole boolit looking almost unfired. What I recovered was not even close to that.

We have found that a Deer Corn sack stuffed with cotton clothes stops arrows very well, even broadheads. The cloth stops arrows in a short distance too and they are easy to remove. It sure does not stop boolits though. A boolit penetrated end to end and left a nice exit hole with cloth bulging out.

These lead boolits penetrate better than expected.

I'm planning to shoot a hog with a boolit. I'll hunt from the bow blind, that way it will be a short range shot. I plan on shooting him where the spine connects to the skull, hogs like that. The rifle will be an M1 or 03A3 (or some other milsurp).

[LAH]

Are W/W bullets to hard for hunting? Not for me........Creeker

[44man]

I use even harder with tin and antimony added to WW metal, but I use large meplats on my revolver boolits. For a smaller meplat, I would go to straight WW metal and for small calibers I would soften more. A very simple process. Match the alloy to the velocity and caliber, so there is no one single alloy for everything.

[jh45gun]

I shot two deer with my 308 Encore pistol using cast one was a round nose bullet I will never use them again if I had not shot that buck in the neck I might have had problems getting him but the neck shot did it but we found the bullet after we skinned it in the hide and and the nose was not deformed. The next deer was with the same bullet but I filed the tips flat so they looked like the 311041 and the doe I shot with that went 30 yards and bleed like a stuck pig out of both holes. In fact I measured my 311041 mold to see what the metplat was and then filed these loaded bullets I had accordingly to match the so they had the same size metplat. Worked like a charm. Now that I own a 311041 mold I will not have a problem shooting my 311041 cast bullets out of my 30/30 for deer as long as the cast bullet has a flat tip it should work fine. My WW bullets I add a little tin (50/50 solder and I can scratch them with my fingernail so they should be soft enough to work.

[leftiye]

Anyone heard of a couple of guys named Kieth and O'Connors?

[GP100man]

leftiye

yes i have both were very good outdoorsmen!!!!
they used what worked.

[yodar]

I have an idea where the WW's are made makes a difference. I get very hard boolits from them. Air cooled have been shot into water jugs and through 1 foot diameter trees and recovered boolits show almost zero deformation. I have had 50 straight shots from a 30-30 Contender pass all the way through 13" of an oak log. I recovered one boolit that turned and was sticking up out of the top. It looked like it was unfired.
I would NOT shoot deer with them and would add some pure lead first.
Years ago I helped drag out a deer with 6 holes through the chest that I could cover with my hand. Every shot from a 30-06 knocked the deer down and it would get up and run. It was tracked for miles in the snow and the sixth shot kept it down. I do NOT like pencil holes in deer! The bullets were too tough.
It is up to you if you want to shoot game with hard boolits, personally I want either a large meplat or some nose expansion. If your WW metal expands, then I can't argue.
I can't make a blanket statement and neither should any of you. It is up to each to test for himself. One lost animal is one too many.
It would be like me telling all of you that you must only use my loads in your gun, kind of silly, don't you think? There are just too many different alloys out there.

Back in '95 Rifleman had an article or two by Ed Harris on hunting with cast bullets and cast bullets with the SKS and his assertion was, iirc, that Lino was FAR to hard and useless for hunting, and adding some lead to WWM would make them perform well in hunting

yodar
Yodar

[GooseGestapo]

It really depends on your velocity.

At ~900fps, the wheel weights may be a bit hard, but if run at 1500fps+, then they are just fine.

This evening about 3hrs ago, I shot my 3rd deer killed this year with my .45/70. All three have been with W/W alloy, air cooled.

Two were with the Lee 340gr FN, over 39.0gr of H4198 for a little over 1,600fps from my Marlin 1895G guidegun.

This evening, I used the 405 FNHP, with the hp drilled out to .4" depth and 5/32" diameter at a range of approx 45yds. Velocity was about 1,450fps over 36.0gr of H4198.

Results was DEVASTATION. I hit the 100lb doe angling foward on the last rib just below the spine. The bullet exited the neck after taking out about half the ribs along the spine and a small portion of the main neck bones in spine near shoulder junction.
DRT needless to say.

The other two were "spined" with broadside shots at 40yds and 120yds. Complete penetration, and "ate" almost up to bullet hole.

Boy, this rifle with my cast bullets is fast becoming my favorite deer rifle !!!!

My rifle dosen't like the bullets hardened. Shoots better with the "aircooled" bullets.
I don't intend to argue with it.

[Bullshop]

A basic rule I like to use is this. For expansion to occur impact velocity ( not muzzle velocity) must not be less than BHN X 100.
With that if your acww are lets say BHN - 12 then you would have to have a minimum of 1200 fps to expect expansion. Thats minimum so a bit higher is better say again acww @ bhn-12 @ 1300 fps impact will yeald the nicely formed clasic mushroom. Nose shape will have some affect.
This is only a theory I have developed from my own experiance and has worked out realy close to the trueth for me.
BIC/BS

[LAH]

For expansion to occur impact velocity ( not muzzle velocity) must not be less than BHN X 100.

The last couple years my ACWW bullets have tested 9 BHN so I should do 900 fps for IV min. to expect expansion? Thanks Bullshop. I add this formula to my list.

Creeker

[Lugnutz]

Wow good read, I like the way the archery aspect was thrown in for good measure. I can relate to that for some reason better than looking at it thru the description of bullets. NOTE : While I hunted many years with archery I have very lousy luck and never even drew blood. Might be why I finally gave up on it.

But I used aluminum arrows, the weight issue was not so important to me and I couldn't afford the new fangdangly carbons. But what was important to me was using a broadhead with a good wide cut. Hmmm kinda like a WFN boolit?

My current hunting rig is a 356 Win throwing a 220 gr factory bullet at about 2400 fps. I don't make long shots with it, 100 or so yards is about it and that one was this year. All have been one shot kills complete pass thru with minimal destruction and from the looks of it, good expansion.

Next season I plan on moving to an Encore in 358 and possibly cast boolits.
My guess is that I'll still be looking at around 2200-2300 fps ( muzzle vel ).

Sticking to my shooting experience of short range I would assum that I need a hardness of around 15 if I use the formula of hardness x 100.

Sound about right? One last part would be bullet weight. Goal is pass thru with good expansion ( no erupting bullets and no pencils ) Does bullet weight play into the formula? IE 180 vs 220 ? My thought would be that 180 would benefit from being a bit harder than the larger 220. I only guess this due to the fact that the 180 has less lead to contribute to the mushroom.

Your thoughts are very welcome. Or is that very NEEDED ???

:Fire:

[chunkum]

WWs obtained locally vary in BHNs. (tested with a Lee and a Saeco for correlation). Usually they are at least a 10.5 or 11 and, more often they are closer to 12 and 13. I've had to cut the 12.5 or so BHNs with an equal wt/volume or X-ray shielding lead to get it to 8.5 or 9 for some rifles that prefer softer missles for better accuracy at lower velocities. So when you say, "Are wheel weights too hard for hunting?" I'd think the answer would have to be qualified as to caliber, bullet design & weight, velocitiy, and for the BHN of a particular batch of WWs. There's really not a single answer to the question, is there?
Best Regards,
chunkum

[44man]

Chunkum, very well put! Why some of you can put things into less words then I can just makes me feel older!

[tom barthel]

I've never killed a deer with a cast bullet. I understand BHN may vary. I have the Lyman 48th edition reloading handbook in my hand now. On page #81 the book shows wheelweights BHN at 9. On page #84 is a picture of a nice expanded .375 cast bullet. The listed BN is 12. Can I get this type of expansion from a .30-30 WW bullet at about 2100 fps? I am in the habit of hitting whatever I shoot at. My bullet is the Lee C309-170RF.