.30-06 deer hunting - HP alloy?

[selmerfan]

I have my order in for the GB on the NOE 311299 with an HP'd cavity. I know this boolit shoots well from my .30-06. My goal is to fill my rifle tags with cast boolits from my .30-06. I'd like the HP boolit to expand and penetrate, looking for around 2000 fps. What alloy composition would you recommend? I have WWs, pure lead, linotype, and foundry type available to alloy the "magic boolit." Thanks for the help!

[SethD]

You know especially when you start getting velocities up around 2000 fps or so hollow points are not necessary for expansion. How many jacketed rifle bullets are hollowpoints? Very few and even those tend to have a tiny hollowpoint. It is easy to get explosive performance with hollow points, hard alloys and cast rifle bullets but that probably isn't really what your looking for unless your varmint hunting. Anyway, what ever you decide to use water dropped 50% ww and 50% pure is a good place to start. That will expand with or without a hollowpoint and shouldn't be to brittle.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I agree with SethD on the hollow points. I have now harvested 5 axis deer with 30-06 cast loads, and a round nose or flat nose boolit seems to be just about right for my needs. However I am not going to discourage you from trying a cast hollow point, I personally would do lots of preliminary tests on wet newspaper and a few hogs before going deer hunting though. As to alloy, I would try air cooled wheel weights, and add pure lead to the mix if still to hard.

[waksupi]

My recommendation would be to not use the hollow point.

[selmerfan]

You guys are a bunch of idiots. Telling somebody that asks a simple question and that has no experience actually hunting with the boolit I think I want to use what YOUR experience is when hunting with the same cartridge! Wait...that's what I asked for...:grin: I appreciate the opinions, especially about the HP. I see all of these fellas HPing their molds and I figure it's for hunting purposes. Fortunately, with the mold I ordered from NOE I have three different options to try out. Because of the double-ended HP pin I'll have the FP option in that cavity as well, plus the standard 311299 profile in the other cavity. So I should start with ACWW, do some penetration/mushrooming tests with each design, and then go from there, right? How fast are you running your hunting loads in the .30-06? I'll be limiting shots to 200 yds max, which is a chip-shot for me with jacketed loads, but I don't want to be underpowered with the cast load.

[1Shirt]

It is my opinion that the issue of HP'ing is one of those never to be solved arguements on this forum. I have a number of HP molds, and will probably have a few more done in the future. I happen to believe that HP's tend to be more accurate potentialy. I believe this because of the jacketed match blts that for the most part, by and large are HP. There are some I am sure who will disagree with this--so be it.

However, if the HP is for hunting, I am a firm believer in soft nose, hard base. For cast in 30 and above, I am a firm believer that a big flat nose of medium hardness is as good a killer as a HP. But again that is opinion. HP's look COOL, and that is a sellling point, but they are slow to cast, and easy to screw up.

SO------as far as alloy, for hunting, I kind of like Paco Kelly's Magnum shot routine.
It works for me at least. If you are unfamilary with Paco, suggest you goggle his name.
Good Luck,
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[MT Gianni]

Selmer, Do a bunch of testing. I would use 1 qt oil jugs and see if I can shoot through 7-10 of them full of water. Measure expansion and weight. Stack one gallon jugs until you find how many will stop your bullet. Use the softest alloy that resists leading in your alloy. Build up a good relationship with local ranchers and have one of them call you when an animal dies that is going to be hauled to the back forty. Shoot it and see what the boolit does. If it doesn't exit do an autopsy, heavily gloved and find the boolit. Compare the same with a flat point. PM me if you want to try some 311440 samples and I'll get you some.
Larry Gibson likes a HP as does Glen. I do not recall if either uses a bore as small as .308 to hunt with cast. Report back on what you find.

[jwhite]

I really like water dropped 50% WW and 50% pure lead for a hollow pointed hunting boolit, as several people have mentioned it is not really "needed" to have a hollow point but then again most things in life are not really "needed", for example you could use a 30-30 to launch that same boolit but if you want to use an '06, go for it, it is your choice and the same goes for using a hollow pointed boolit for hunting, if you want to use it, go for it. I would caution against making too big of a hollow point though, as is it is easy to reach a point of diminishing returns, especially at speeds of 2000fps or greater.

I have had the opportunity to take deer with the same boolit in several different forms, hollowpointed, softnosed with pure lead nose section, straight WW, and both water dropped and air cooled 50/50 and I have to say that a deer hit with a hollowpointed bullet tends to drop much quicker (usually in its tracks) than a deer hit in the same spot with any of the others. The only thing thing thats works better is the softpointed cast boolit, these are by far the best cast hunting boolit for deer sized game. The one thing I do not like about a cast hollowpoint is you can lose some meat unless you keep your shots behind the shoulder, but they certainly work well and will typically dropped a well hit deer right where they stand, which in some of the spots I hunt is very desirable due to the thick brush.

JW

[RugerFan]

So I should start with ACWW, do some penetration/mushrooming tests with each design, and then go from there, right? How fast are you running your hunting loads in the .30-06?

Yes, exactly. the 311284 has a fairly decent BC for a hunting type cast boolit (.316). With a MV of 2000 FPS, a 214 gn 311284 is traveling 1555 FPS at 200 yds. Not bad at all. I'm waiting on the same mould only no HP.

I've been shooting other boolits out of my .308 & 30-06 at 2000 FPS. Taken deer out to about 120 yds without issue.

...

[fatnhappy]

I will not advise you how to proceed. I know not the size of your deer, ranges or hunting techniques. I will however, tell you what I load. Good sized bucks around here regularly run 180 lbs dressed. Most does and average sized bucks around 150 lbs dressed. Hunting ranges are typical of the great lakes states, anything from 10 to 100 yards is normal. I have a couple stands and hunting spots (powerline rights of way) where 200 yard shots are possible but infrequent.
I've settled on a 311290 in the 06 as my "deer hunting" boolit based more on how well it shoots than any other criteria, except weight. The older I get the heavier I like my boolits. The first time I used it deer hunting I cast it fairly soft (50/50 pure lead and WW) and redneck hollowpointed with a 1/8" drill bit. I loaded it to about 1700 fps IIRC. I shot a fair sized doe. It clipped her scapula and a rib on the way in, pulped her heart and lungs, smashed a couple ribs on the far side, slammed into her far scapula and followed her leg bone down to her elbow. This is what was left.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/lhsjfk3t/103_0010.jpg

As much as that doe was DRT, I always prefer an exit. I have since refrained from hollowpointing my boolits for deer in the 06 but still use a 311291 HP in my .30-30. My current 06 load is the round nosed 311290 cast of ACWW over enough H-4895 to give me 2000 fps. I shot a fair sized doe this year at a steep downhill angle. I had decent expansion through the lungs, clipped a rib on the way out and had a good blood trail. I did not dig the boolit out of the dirt. I'm reserving judgement on this combination until I shoot a couple more deer with it. I would expect an unhollowpointed 311299 similarly cast and loaded to perform in much the same manner for you.

[Larry Gibson]

I've been shooting/killing deer (black tail, white tail and mulies) from 100 to 250 lbs (on the hoof) since I was 14 years old with cast bullets out of .30 cal rifles. I use my HP cast bullets at 1850 - 2200 fps, depending on cartridge, with expected ranges from muzzle to 200 yards.

I began using different HP'd cast bullets of .30 cal on deer in '68. 1st thing I learned was that alloy is most important. The alloy must be malleable enough for good expansion yet not to brittle so the petals do not break or slough off to soon. The 2nd thing I learned was that the depth of the HP and shape was also very important to proper expansion and weght retension. The 3rd thing I learned was that .30 cast bullets will kill deer very well out to 200 yards with such muzzle velocities. The 4th thing I learned was that cast Hp'd .30 cal bullet of proper alloy and size HP killed the deer quicker. With such I have very seldom recovered a bullet as all were through and through. The few recovered showed excellent expansion and weight retension.

I test the HPs in really water soaked newsprint at 25 yards. I expect to get 75+ weight retansion with excellent expansion and 10 - 12+ inches penetration. With such at the remaining velocities at ranges to 200 yards performance is still excellent and most often better than the same bullet un-HP'd. Even if it doesn't expand at longer range performance is equal to the same un-HP'd bullet. Thus I get the best of both across the range I shoot deer.

I prefer my Lyman 311041HP for my .30 cal deer hunting. Any similar bullet would work as well. I shortened the HP stem so the HP is full diameter to 3/4 the length of the bullet nose (forward of the front driving band). When cast of WW + lead at 50/50 and AC'd my 311041s weigh 177 gr fully dressed. I use Hornady or my own GCs and Javelina lube. For testing and hunting I clean the barrel every 5-7 shots. If I've not killed the deer in that many shots I go home anyways....... For practice the same cast of WWs + 2 % tin WQ'd can be used for zeroand practice without the cleaning regimen.

Yes, I use HP'd cast bullets because they kill quicker. For me that is important and I lke to simple improve the performance of my cast bullets. Un HP'd cast bullets (proper ones that is) will also kill deer and varmints. I've no qualms on their use and use them myself at times fo hunting if HPs are not available. Both work well, which you use just depends on which you want to use. If you use them use a proper alloy, proper shape and depth of HP and a sufficient velocity for accuracy with expansion. If you do this you will be rewarded with a better performing cast bullet and the satisfaction that comes with making and using such.

Larry Gibson

[Jack Stanley]

I may be running a risk of thread highjack here but that's not the intent , I'd still like to know about cast hollow points some .

My old Cramer mold has one cavity with a hollow point and makes bullets that weigh near a hundred sixty degrees . Let's say I cast them at or near eight brinell and only drive them at fourteen or fifteen hundred feet per second . Also , shots would be limited to less than a hundred yards .

Would I be right in thinking that this type of load would be at least as good as the old 32-40 blackpower load that was used on deer so long ago ? It doesn't seem that it would be any worse that a .357 Magnum at the same ranges .

Jack

[selmerfan]

Jack, no problem with a hijack, done it before myself. :grin: I would certainly think it would be as good as the old BP loads. I think we need to remember that thousands of critters were killed with lead projectiles long before smokeless powder was introduced, although the diameter was greater in most cases.

[northmn]

I have used a 30-30 with a 188 grain flatpoint (1900-2000 fps) to kill several deer. One out to 140 steps from the tree. All performed very well, probably similar to the famed Nosler. None have ever been recovered. I am so satisfied with this load that I do not even like jacketed bullets any more. One deer I shot through the shoulders and wasted very little meat as compared to a modern HV jacketed round. I use about an equavalent of 1/3 WW to 2/3 lead water hardened and then place those bullets I use for hunting in a water bath to cover the bases and use a torch to anneal the noses. I admit to losing a few but you do not generally need that many for hunting. You can sight in with non annealed bullets as they shoot the same. A HP may "kill quicker" but I kind of doubt it. This has been quite effective.
I also like to use Lees liquid ALox and an alox lube in the grooves.

DP

[Larry Gibson]

In the 45 or so years I've been killing deer with cast .30 cal bullets I have killed a lot of them. I have observed the distinct difference between the killing effect of the FP (though it does quite well) and the HP version of the same FP. The HP version is a quicker killer. Whether that is important or not is matter of choice and hunting style and ability to recover the deer. I choose to kill as cleanly and as quickly as possible. I do this to minimise the suffering of the animal and if you've ever hunted in the rain forests of the Pacific NW you'll understand the desire that the deer not go far. Just my choice is all and I've no qualms with others choice in this matter as the difference can be small.

The more internal damage, generally the quicker the animal dies. That is fact if we consider the only difference being more bullet expansion with a given bullet/cartridge/load combination. A good FP bullet of softer alloy that allows expanion also kills quicker that a solid FP of the same bullet. If one is satisfied with what one is using then that is fine. However, "satisfaction" with one does not negate the other. Selmerfan has the HP mould on the way and it should be a good one with the appropriate alloy at 1900 -2000 fps out of his '06. He may want to adjust the HP depth for best expansion/weight retension with a good softer malleable alloy.

Larry Gibson

[selmerfan]

Thanks Larry, I always appreciate your info on a given topic. I'll be experimenting over the summer with alloys and powders for accuracy, velocity, and terminal performance.

[northmn]

I have also had something like 40 years experience shooting deer and seeing them shot as I used to party hunt. In that time I have seen a large numger of deer shot with a large number of calibers. If shot behind the shoulder most calibers of the "deer rifle" class did not make much difference. Just that the bigger ones seemed to waste more deer. If one has a HP mold and wants to use it, it will work. As long as one gets expansion when they are shot behind the shoulder or through the lungs they generally drop fairly quickly depending upon circumstances. If being driven and hopped up on adreline they will run quite a ways. If shot unaware while ambling through the woods they tend to go down pretty quick. I have used the HP Gould mold in the 45-70 and it is pretty effective, but at black powder velocities. Most game in Northern Minnesota is shot at fairly close range as we are considered one of the best Ruffed grouse areas in the nation. I could relate war stories and so could other experienced hunters, but if one wants to really down a deer quickly, then one should break its shoulders. If that is done then bullet design does not make as much difference as to HP or solid. Cast bullets do not waste near the venison as HV jacketed bullets. The deer I hit at 140 paces went about 10 yards and dropped so quick I had to kick it over to field dress it. It was hit behind the shoulders and through the lungs.

DP

[northmn]

Actually when given a little thought, HPs might be quite helpful at the longer distances where one has shots over 100 yards. I also like to use heavier bullets because they retain velocity better for that purpose.

DP

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Larry, I always appreciate your info on a given topic. I'll be experimenting over the summer with alloys and powders for accuracy, velocity, and terminal performance.

Please keep us posted on your results as this topic is interesting and always informative.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Just a thought here based on test tube testing into various media, one objective being to get a boolit that will expand yet stay together at higher velocities - i.e. tough and ductile. I played around with scrap lead water pipe with an amount of plumbers solder with a small amount of copper dissolved into the alloy. Seemed to work pretty good. Heat treating the alloy was futile as the alloy hardened on it's own in a matter of hours anyway.

Sand tests.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-610F.jpg

Hard and soft alloy into sand.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-481F.jpg

Supposedly 1900fps 225gr HN into wet rags.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-644F_edited.jpg

[northmn]

Alloy makes a lot of difference. I use a softer alloy than some and heat treat it. I also anneal the noses for expansion. Some like to use a little harder alloy, heat treat, and do not anneal. You also have to look at expansion at terminal ballistics. If you are getting accuracy from a soft alloy then its great. 1-20 Lead tin is actually harder on the Brinnel scale than WW but is more ductile. I do not know about the copper dissolve in lead. Some claim loading down to say 1400-1500 is not the same as a longer range hit but I have played with it in a couple of cases.

DP

[white eagle]

although more tin less lead have you considered 16-1
I am using it in cast m/l conical with great accuracy
began to think I would have trouble loading them being harder than w/w,bhn wise,
but they actually loaded fairly well :Fire:
just a thought :castmine: