Casting for a Colt 44-40 w/oversize barrel

[Humbo]

I just borrowed an old Colt in 44-40 from a guy at my local gun club. He never shot it, and now he wants me to cast bullets and reload some ammo for him. But after trying to slug the bore I'm not sure if it's of any use. Cylinder throats are about .425-.426, which is common, but the .440 diameter round-ball went throgh the barrel almost without any resistance at all. So is there any hope of getting this gun to shoot? I will try to slug the barrel tomorrow with a 45-caliber round-ball and get exact dimensions.

Thanks!

[targetshootr]

Yikes. I thought 44-40 throats were supposed to be .427. They can be fixed easy enough but I'd call Colt to see what they say about the barrel. How old is old?

[Humbo]

Throats are fine, the problem is the oversize barrel. This is a gun from the 1880's, so it's really old. A .427 bullet will probably not engage the rifling at all. Could hollow base boolits be the trick?

[clintsfolly]

Maybe a parts gun 44/40 cylinder and a 45colt barrel? hope he he knows a guy with a real tight barrel 45colt.Clint

[Humbo]

Clint, it could be. But the barrel looks to be original, so I don't know. When I get the barrel slugged later, i will for sure know if it's 45 caliber.

[Calamity Jake]

TWO options, hollow base boolit or ream the cylinder throats

[HeavyMetal]

How's the barrel marked? Or is it even marked? Some of these old Colts have been polished to the point of wiping out all the original markings but the caliber markings on the barrel should still be present.

Curious as to what you find out as to barrel diamensions.

[mooman76]

How does the rifling look otherwise? I would think if it was that much enlarged that the rifling would be pretty much gone.

[Humbo]

How does the rifling look otherwise? I would think if it was that much enlarged that the rifling would be pretty much gone.

Truth be told, this is the first really old revolver I had in my hands for inspection, so I'm not really sure what condition the rifling is in. I tried to take a picture of it, here goes:

http://home.online.no/~kjel-phu/bilder/IMG_4539.JPG

[Humbo]

How's the barrel marked? Or is it even marked? Some of these old Colts have been polished to the point of wiping out all the original markings but the caliber markings on the barrel should still be present.

Curious as to what you find out as to barrel diamensions.

The barrel doesn't say anything about the caliber from what I can see, but everything else seems to still be there. It looks to have been re-blued, but all original markings are still present I think.

[Dale53]

I am NOT a Colt authority (far from it). However, that barrel is heavily pitted and will probably not do well with cast bullets regardless of the dimensions.

It seems to me I remember that original SAA Colts did not necessarily list the caliber. As I remember it, it is possible that they just named (on the side of the barrel) the model of the revolver depending on caliber. It seems to me that 44/40 was named "Frontier Six Shooter" or something similar. You need a refererence on early Colt revolvers.

The good people on the Forum on this link almost certainly can help you:

http://singleactions.proboards.com/index.cgi

Dale53

[targetshootr]

If the gun is in shootable condition, I wouldn't shoot it, it's too valuable.

[bandit7.5]

Is that a single action or a double action? Because I had the same problem with a New Service DA 44-40 first model.The rifling looks just like yours including the pits.

[ironhead7544]

That is some odd looking rifling. Looks like a .45 ACP barrel. Also looks pitted. Probably wont shoot lead very well.

[ironhead7544]

That is some odd looking rifling. Looks like a .45 ACP barrel. Also looks pitted. Probably wont shoot lead very well. Edit: I did some research. Up until around 1910 wide grooves were used so that looks right.

[Humbo]

Sorry for the late update guys. I slugged the bore of this gun with a boolit sized to .452. It wasn't too hard getting it through, it mic'ed right about .449. So this barrel is far closer to a 45 caliber than a 44. So I think the way to go is to get some kind of hollow base boolit to get this gun to shoot properly. Anyone know where I can get such a mold?

As you can see, the rifling is different from what you find in modern guns.

http://home.online.no/~kjel-phu/bilder/IMG_4551.JPG

[targetshootr]

That's a nice pic. Any way to post a pic of the gun? Sounds like it needs a new old barrel and then stored somewhere safe, away from powder and boolits.

[targetshootr]

Will a 45 colt case fit into the chambers?

[smkummer]

Is this gun a rim-fire? Look at the hammer as that sounds like the bore of a 44 rim-fire.

[HeavyMetal]

I'm thinking you got a 44-40 gun with a 45 barrel on it!

Considering some of the strange things I've seen in my life, best joke was a dodge 318 in a Chevy Vega, it didn't fit because of frame issues ( which is why everyone else put small block chevy engines in them) so he set the whole thing in on it's side!

Carb actually pointed at the drivers side fender at about 20 degrees off straight up and down. Made a big thing out of being a genuis for figuring this out.

Didn't have a clue the fore and aft was also off by 15 degrees until I pointed it out to him.

He ran this around town for a few years, got a whole 200 miles out of every U Joint he ever put in it! LOL!!

So thinking that someone needed a new barrel because the original was: bent, cut off, rusted, to long, to short, to fat, not fat enough shouldn't be to surprising.

Save yourself some hassle inform the owner he needs a barrel.

[Humbo]

Thanks for the input guys. Unfortunately I just went back to town today, so I won't have access to the gun for a couple of weeks at least. The only case I got to chamber in this gun is a 44-40WCF, so I'm 99% sure that's the caliber. I tried with both 44 spl and 45 Colt. "44 CF" is also inprinted on the trigger guard, I guess it stands for 44 center fire. So it is indeed a 44, but why the hugely oversize barrel? Could there have been a production error? Or maybe someone changed barrels at some point?
I didn't slug the cylinder, I only measured it with my digital calipers. If my memory serves me right, mouths were around .427.

[Humbo]

HeavyMetal, I saw your reply just after my previous post above. I think you're absolutely right! Even in the old days they couldn't get dimensions that much wrong. So I guess someone replaced the barrel with a 45 caliber barrel. But it is an original Colt barrel though, it has the Colt markings etc, just not the caliber specification.
I'll look out for a new barrel, and notify the owner.

[x101airborne]

keith talked about SAA's that were assembled from piled parts. He often lamented of SAA's with 44-40 barrels on 45 colt cylinders and vice-versa. Could be the case here. I dont remember the specifics, but something about marks on the barrels / frames matching. I dont remember the details, but was common in the early 1900's when the SAA was decomissioned. and sold off. Pistols sold for around 3 or 4 dollars my mail order IIRC.

[ironhead7544]

Could be a 44 Henry barrel. It would be about .446.

[MtGun44]

How about a 44-40 cyl put into a .45 LC revolver? Hollow based boolit is your only
hope, but I think you need a .45 LC cylinder more than anything else.

Bill

[405]

That rifling is most assuredly old Colt BP design. Other gun makers of the BP era also used that pattern. That narrow land, wide groove design at least with Colt SAAs spanned over into the early smokeless era. The gun may be a parts gun. Maybe someone had an old BP 45LC Colt and put a 44-40 cylinder in it. If that's the case it's collector value is limited. You need to slug the bore with a soft lead, .460" or so sized slug to make sure about the groove diameter. Most parts are available to "rebuild" the thing but may be more $ than it's worth.

[cajun shooter]

Bill Weddle, You need to do some history research on the 44-40. The original guns came from the factory with barrels that slugged as small as .424-.425. The latter guns all had .427 barrels which is the proper diameter for the caliber. A lot of the gun makers in later years made the barrels larger so that they would take the same bullet as the 44 magnum. I have a old loading tool that is for the 44-40 and it is dated Dec.1884. It drops and sizes it's bullets to .425 which would fit the guns of that time. I also shoot the 44-40 in SASS and my two USFA revolvers slug at .427 as does my Uberti !873 Winchester. It is said that the Uberti guns are better made than the original. I will say that they have the bore correct for the caliber. I cast 20-1 alloy in custom moulds that drop the bullets at .429 which is what I shoot. I also think that a look of many loading manuals will show the .427 is correct and not your .430 Later and Take Care David