Tumble Lubing Lee TL plain base CB's

[Maven]

The responses to this thread, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=107863, prompt me to ask whether tumble lubing with Lee liquid alox, both the process and [target] accuracy is as troublesome as some suggest. Let's deal with the cons first: It's messy (but fast). It gets all over your seating/crimping dies (but so do other lubes). Some object to the odor of liquid alox. Some, notably Veral Smith, are also allergic to it. Then there's the issue of drying time, and lastly, the smokiness when fired. I agree that it can be messy if you swish CB's around in a bowl, but I haven't had a problem with drying time or tackiness. Most of the time, I use liq. alox undiluted and apply it by hand, which is slower and marginally more effective than using the bowl method.

Accuracy & plain base TL CB's: I'm of two minds on this, as I have 2 TL mold: A Lee 240gr. SWC and the Group Buy 30-150-TL. The Lee 240gr. TL-SWC cast very easily, but not always perfectly: defective bands (saved these for foulers and remelted the rest). That CB was also ~.0015" too small for my Ruger SBH. In spite of that, it was quite accurate up to ~1,050fps. However, Lyman #429421, or RCBS 250-K (Keith types), cast larger, could be driven significantly faster (1,200fps) more accurately than the Lee TL CB. My B & M 269gr. WC, which carries very little lube, may be slightly more accurate than the Lyman & RCBS Keith designs, up to 1,100fps. Btw, leading was no greater with the Lee TL design than with the other 3.

The other TL CB I use is the .30cal. Group Buy flat point (truncated cone) plain base 150gr. projectile (140grs. in fact). Since it is large enough to fit my .30-06's bore, accuracy can be very good +, regardless of the lube used or the means by which it is applied. As you might expect, though, velocity is limited to ~1, 500fps (7gr. Clays; 9.5gr. Blue Dot). If I taper it (bumps the nose to .302", the body to .3095", and makes the base perfectly flat*), accuracy is even better, but that defeats the appeal of TL's, doesn't it (cast, lube, load, & shoot)?

So I ask you, is accuracy and velocity compromised by the TL design itself, by the somewhat chancy cylinder throat or bbl. throat dimension, or both? For the record, I have no accuracy problems at ~1,950fps in my rifles when using GC'd CB's lubed with liquid alox or in my Ruger BH when using liquid alox and a GC'd CB (LBT 180gr. truncated cone, 11 13gr. WC 820).


*It will make the base of the GC perfectly flat as well.

[Ole]

I use several TL bullets.

I use my homemade lube to pan lube anything that needs sizing, after the sizing/gas check step.

I'm going to try Ranch Dog's ALOX dip method one of these days.

I've seen pretty good results with all my Ranch Dog molds.

Fastest i've used them is 1950fps with the RD190 grain in my .357 Max T/C.

[Ole]

Sorry Maven I just realized you were asking specifically about plain base molds.

The only plain base TL molds i've used are the 100RD for 380s and the 158 SWC TL made by Lee.

The 380 mold shoots good (mind you it's a pocket pistol in .380, so "shoots good" is relative).

The 158 SWC bullet shoots average. I've only tried two powders with it so maybe I haven't experimented enough or maybe the throats in my GP100 are goofy, like many have seen.

[mooman76]

I have never had any problems with any tumble lube boolits. I don't really know how many I have but I have several at least. I tumble lube regular boolits also with no problems and also don't size the TL boolits anymore or most boolits for that matter.

[chris in va]

I tried the TL molds in 9mm and 45acp, neither shot straight. All that cleared up when I got plain boolit molds.

Which reminds me, I have a Lee 45acp TL mold if anyone wants it.

[slim1836]

Which reminds me, I have a Lee 45acp TL mold if anyone wants it.

I do, how much?

[Boolseye]

It's true that any boolit can be tumble lubed. The tumble lube design works better in some calibers and applications than others, with probably the most successful being the .357/.38 spl TL moulds. That's just my experience. The micro-grooves seem designed to hold a greater surface area of this type of lube, though standard lube-groove boolits do alright with Alox or it's derivatives (45-45-10, for instance). I'm no expert–and I'm new to casting, but the tumble lube method is all I've used, thus far. I like the quickness, economy and performance, with the TL.358-158SWC (recluse's #1 boolit) being the most obvious success out of my smith m66 4".

[Maven]

"The tumble lube design works better in some calibers and applications than others, with probably the most successful being the .357/.38 spl TL moulds."

Boolseye, Thanks for writing that as it jarred my memory about the Group Buy Lee 30-150-TL CB. Although it is repeatably accurate in my .30-06, it was just the opposite in my .30-30 (Marlin #336) and Type 56 SKS using similar loads. I haven't tried it yet in my K-31's or Finnish Nagants, but given what you said, there's reason not to be too optimistic about the results [using the same 7gr. Clays load as in the '06].

[onondaga]

I don't find accuracy or velocity compromised at all with TL bullets in my application. Bullet sized diameter has shown to be more important for both accuracy and velocity to me.

My example is the Lee CTL312-160-2R, I shoot this in my Sako Sporter .308 Win. rifle that slugs at .3072". Casting alloy is a BHN 14 from a Wheel-weight and Linotype mix. My first work up loads were checked/sized at .309 and tumble lubed once before checking/sizing and twice after.. Accuracy peaked 1 MOA at 2125 fps with H4895, and then fell off at higher velocity. I honed out my bullet sizing die to achieve .310" bullet diameter size and began workup again at the range. The larger sized bullet diameter was the only thing changed and accuracy peaked 1 MOA at 2312 fps using 36.0 gr. H4895. All this took an entire summer, but was great fun.

Either size bullet lubed with LLA + 10% Mineral spirits using the method above produced a lube star pattern on the rifle muzzle after 5 shots. Yes, there was smoke from the muzzle from the lube. I don't find that bothersome. I now use 45:45:10 mix for tumble lube in the same manner and accuracy results did not change but bullet preparation time is a lot quicker with the quicker drying time of the new lube mix. Smoke is less with the new lube.

Gary

[exile]

When you say 'tumble lubing by hand' do you mean dipping, applying it with a finger? Thanks.

exile

[Boolseye]

Tumble lubing, as popularized by Lee (as far as I know!) is the quickest method of lubing, regardless of how else you feel about it. a number of bullets, say 150, are placed in a plastic container such as a cool whip container, and an amount of Lee liquid Alox is squirted onto them–they're then tumbled by hand 'til they all have a coating of the stuff (very light), then left to dry overnight on some kind of flat sheet, such as a cookie sheet which will never bake another cookie. After this they can be sized, lubed again and shot, or just shot if they don't need sizing. Recluse popularized a mix of Alox, Johnson's Paste Wax and mineral spirits in the proportions of 45%-45%-10% that many of us use (see his in-depth post on that recipe). It's economical and leaves less of a patina or visible coating on the boolits.

Onandaga–I can't recall if you've weighed in much as regards the 9mm TL discussions.
Are you one of those who uses the standard lube groove 120 or 124TC for the 9? jpsnake and I are both bound and determined to make a go of the TL124TC, if only for the reason that I have the six-banger, in my case, and find the boolits aesthetically pleasing and shootable, if not ideal.

Also, thanks for the post on your work with the CTL312-160-2r. Is that one of Ranch Dogs? Oh wait–that's one of those AK boolits, right?

[onondaga]

Boolseye:
I'm not a 9mm shooter, I'm just weighing in on how much I like TL bullets. Yes, the Lee CTL312-160-2R is designed for the Russian cartridges, I selected it for my .308 Win. because the as cast diameter is nice and large for a .308 Win. and the other Lee molds drop pretty small for that caliber. I'd love to have a tool to cut that bullet to a flat nose! That bullet is very pointy and the one deer I took with that bullet took 2 heart shots less than an inch apart at over 250 yd. and still walked off another 150 yards! One flat point would have put him down.

I can offer an additional tip on tumble lubing. I repeatedly error and use too much when I squirt it on the boolits and stumbled upon a cure that actually takes advantage of the error and gives a little heavier coating that I like for higher velocity loads in rifle. If I notice them over-lubed and dripping wet on the wax paper after an hour, I pull up the wax paper by the ends and dump the boolits back into the tumbling carton. I tumble them again for 30 seconds and dump them onto fresh wax paper. The excess is always gone when I do that! Now I use that as my standard method. This works with straight LLA and 45:45:10.

Gary

[geargnasher]

Maven, I agree with Gary on this, I don't find the TL designs much of a compromise compared directly to similar boolit with standard lube grooves. I've compared directly the Lee .45 ACP TC boolits in both styles, and also the Lee .358 SWC designs, all work equally well for me, leading me to believe that for low-velocity stuff it doesn't matter much. Perhaps it does at higher velocities or in rifles of medium to small caliber.

Most of the Lee TL pistol designs have bevel bases, which I prefer since they are less easy to damage when lubing. Tumbling sharp, plain-based boolits invariably dings the bases some, although the mild nature of the loads I've tested hasn't shown that to be significant.

As far as liquid Alox goes, I wouldn't go near the stuff if I had to use it straight, I've been thinning it and adding Turtle wax or "Natural" Kiwi shoe polish to it for years to make it less sticky and dry faster, then the Johnson's Paste Wax thing came up, and I won't go back. No more sticky, no more buildup, no more mess. Goes through the push-through sizer better than plain Alox, to.

Gear

[HARRYMPOPE]

I use the LLA straight(but a light coat) on the 308403 Pope bullet and other 30 plainbase bullets with results as good as Darr#2 or other Schuetzen formulas.I heat the bullets slightly in a container with a blow dryer with a glob of LLA on them. I dump them out stand them up and then run the dryer with no heat to dry them off.They are ready to use in short order.

HMP

[Maven]

"My example is the Lee CTL312-160-2R, I shoot this in my Sako Sporter .308 Win. rifle that slugs at .3072". Casting alloy is a BHN 14 from a Wheel-weight and Linotype mix. My first work up loads were checked/sized at .309 and tumble lubed once before checking/sizing and twice after.. Accuracy peaked 1 MOA at 2125 fps with H4895, and then fell off at higher velocity." ...Onondaga

Gear, I'm not at all surprised that gas checked TL designs can be pushed faster and maybe more accurately than their plain based brethren. However, I was asking about the plain based ones of which I had two. Of those, the .44cal. TL-SWC was more problematic as it was a bit undersized, sometimes had casting flaws on [some of] the bands, and couldn't be driven much more than 1,050fps without accuracy loss and bbl. leading. By contrast, my Keith CBs, both Lyman & RCBS, and my B & M heavy WC (all are plain based) are more accurate at higher speeds (haven't yet gone further than 1,200fps) than the 240gr. TL SWC.

[Recluse]

Gear, I'm not at all surprised that gas checked TL designs can be pushed faster and maybe more accurately than their plain based brethren. However, I was asking about the plain based ones of which I had two. Of those, the .44cal. TL-SWC was more problematic as it was a bit undersized, sometimes had casting flaws on [some of] the bands, and couldn't be driven much more than 1,050fps without accuracy loss and bbl. leading.

Maven,

I have yet to try a gas-checked pistol (caliber) boolit, although I do have my eye on a couple that look interesting.

That 44 TL boolit? I tried that and had about the same results as you. In Special loads, the accuracy was so-so, and I didn't have any leading. In magnum loads, there simply was no (consistent) accuracy and I got leading. Not bad, but enough to frustrate me. I tried adjusting my alloy as well as factors that affect BHN, but no joy. I was loading and shooting "as cast" which was rare for me at the time since I'm religious about sizing for everything, but this boolit cast a tad bit small for my liking.

Now for the "other" magnum caliber, .357 Magnum, and my Smith & Wesson family of wheelguns, I have no better boolit anywhere in my inventory than the Lee TL158SWC. I cast it with wheel weights and a touch of extra tin (for additional/thorough fillout of the micro bands), water-drop the boolits straight from the mold, tumble-lube them with 45/45/10, size, lube again, then let sit up to harden a bit more for a few weeks.

I can load and push these boolits right up to the limits of my 686 with the eight-inch barrel with no leading and stellar, consistent accuracy.

I've never noticed a bevel base on what few TL boolits I have. I'm gonna walk out to my shop right now and take a look. Will take my reading glasses with me :) so there is no mistaking what kind of bases those boolits have.

:coffee:

[UnderDawgAl]

Good discussion from folks with experience. I've enjoyed this thread.

I'm a TL fan, primarily because my free time is in short supply, and I like the ease. In fact, I use the method for TL-designed boolits and regular. Thanks to Recluse, I'm using the 45-45-10 mix, and, like Onondaga, I usually put too much lube on. Makes a nice smoke cloud, though--BP-lite, if you will!

[nanuk]

I'm gonna walk out to my shop right now and take a look. Will take my reading glasses with me :) so there is no mistaking what kind of bases those boolits have.



Hmmm..... been almost 12 hours... Anyone heard from Recluse?

I wonder what's going on in his shop?

[Recluse]

Hmmm..... been almost 12 hours... Anyone heard from Recluse?

I wonder what's going on in his shop?

I get absent-minded from time to time.

Grabbed magnifying glass and looked at my TL boolits and son-of-a-gun, they DO have a bevel base! But boy, it's a small one. Nothing like the bevel base on my Lee 45 200SWC. That honker has quite the bevel base--but it is my number two all-time best shooting boolit, plus I love the design.

:coffee:

[Maven]

Recluse, Yes, they DO have a small bevel at the base, but I don't think that was the source of the accuracy/velocity limitation mine had. Rather, my mold cast too small, .429". My SBH is happier with .430" and even .431". In spite of the undersized 240-SWC-TL, accuracy was quite good, but not nearly as good as the other SWC's & WC I mentioned in a previous post.

[XWrench3]

well, i will not dive into the debate. i use it, mostly because right now i can not afford a lube/sizer and all of the fittings required. anyway, let me tell you all the way i do things. 1st, i tumble lube in an old peanut butter jar. the product says "tumble lube, so i do! with the lid on, i can get a much more even coating with a lot less product by actually tumbleing the boolits as i spin the jar. so i spin, and tumble at the same time for about two minutes. the result is a nice even coating all over the boolits. 2nd, i have tried standing them up, or just dumping them onto the wax paper. neither has an advantage, with the exception of looks. the ones stood up look nicer. 3rd,while straight up l.l.a. works well enough for light pistol loads, it is not always enough for high power pistol, or rifle loads. i have learned that 2 tea spoons of lyman powdered moly per bottle with just enough mineral spirits to thin it all back to the original thickness works wonders! the moly really makes a differnce, as long as the boolit fits the bore properly. 4th, i really do not care for the smoke either. it can be eliminated if you stand your bullets up on the wax paper, and wipe the bottoms off before you set them down. it is a pita to do, and takes along time, but it does work. 5th, pointing a small fan directly at the boolits as they dry cuts the curing time in half. remember to roll the boolits over (if they are laying down) so the bottom dries as well about 1/2 way through the drying time. sitting them in the direct sunlight is the quickest as long as it is abve 80 degres or so. unfortunatly, here in michigan, that is about 2 months of the year :( i am also sure that if you experimented around a little, you could find some sort of thinner (like possibly M.E.K. OR ACETONE) that would cut the l.l.a. and let it dry faster. i will give any, and every one thinking about using M.E.K. for anything, it WILL eat through any type of plasic made given a little time, it is the only thing i know of that will desolve epoxy and silicone rubber. it is also quite toxic, so be very carefull!

[onondaga]

There is one trick in my bag. Check out this bullet:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/TLsized.jpg

Look at the ragged bevel butt. This is a .513" Lee R.E.A.L. muzzle loading bullet that I size to .501 and shoot from a .500 S&W Mag rifle. at 1885 fps. The big solution that enabled me to get superior accuracy/velocity is a filler that acts as a gas check! BPI Original Filler is a finely granulated high heat plastic. Compressed loads with this under the bullet are effectively gas checked. Safe filler use includes the weight of the filler used added to the bullet weight for a complete projectile weight in your load safety calculations. Don't ignore that if you try using BPI Original filler for a gas check on raggedy butt bullets like mine. I get less than 1 inch groups at 50 yards with that load and so does my grandson!

Gary

[Boolseye]

Gary,
Thanks for the tip on the .30 cal boolit. I'm in the market for one and will seriously consider the CTL312-160-2R. Re. the over-lubed boolits–when you re-tumble them, you don't add more lube, right?
-jp
p.s.

This is a .513" Lee R.E.A.L. muzzle loading bullet that I size to .501 and shoot from a .500 S&W Mag rifle. at 1885 fps.
freakin' awesome!

[onondaga]

Correct, I don't add more lube, Just tumble again and put the bullets on clean, new wax paper. I am a very poor judge of how much lube to use, either LLA or 45:45:10 and this works for me. Usually the lube runs off the bullets and soaks the wax paper. This is a sign that I have done it again! So after they have drained on the wax paper for an hour, and I see the soaking mess, I put them back into the tumble container. I put down fresh wax paper. Tumble the bullets 30 seconds with no more lube added and pour them out onto the fresh wax paper. Then the lube really and actually does dry quickly with all the access gone.

Gary

[goofyoldfart]

To all : I have used the TL358 in my 38's & 357's and TL 45's for my 45ACP & 45LC (can't remember the dia at this moment--it's packed away in the 40mm can that I keep my molds in +CRSGO {can't remember s**t getting old}) but one thing that I do, due to the fact that they are straight wall cases, is to put one or two meat tray divots that have been punched out of a meat tray using 7/16" and 1/2" punches so that the bullet compresses the powder just a smidgen, crimp and fire. Good accuracy and very clean bore. I believe that the divots "wipe" the bore and they also act as a "gas check" while wiping the bore. Works for me and I have been doing it on straight wall cases since 1979, that's when I read about it in the American Rifleman. God Bless to all.:coffee:

Goofy[smilie=s:


ETA: ONONDAGA: thank you for the info on the Lee CTL312-160-2R. this might have several applications for me. again thank you