Recovered Glock 21 boolits

[Jailer]

Finally found a good use for snow, capturing boolits without molesting them. :smile:

Shot 25 today and got a little leading in the throat. Looking at the recovered boolits it's looks like they need to be sized a little bigger. You can see where the lead flowed forward at the base on one of them. Sound reasonable?

The pics. They look tilted because the camera was so close on macro.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/Glockboolits.jpg

Close up of #1
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/Glockboolit1.jpg

Close up of #2
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/Glockboolit2.jpg

Close up of #3
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/Glockboolit3.jpg

[thegreatdane]

Awesome pictures. I also have some unmolested boolits as result of snow. I'll post pictures in a few days. Until then, I'll be out enjoying the snow in other ways :)

Great pictures.

[Jailer]

Personally, I can't wait for the white stuff to go away. I hate winter.

Forgot to add that the boolits were loaded with 5gr W231 and sized to .452

[fecmech]

I shot some test bullets about a month ago but the snow has not yet receded enough to recover them. I shot pure lead Keiths at 1250 FPS out of a handgun and 1600FPS out of the rifle. What was surprising was that I got absolutely no barrel leading at all! There was a little molten lead on the forcing cone of the revolver but nothing in the barrel.

[seppos]

What is the size of them.. I think that they are bit skinny to your barrel..
Any leading with them?

S

[thegreatdane]

They illustrate the flat-spot, glock-type polygonal rifling very well. Mine slugs out around .4515. For cast in my Glock 21, I'm using a KKM.

[Jailer]

What is the size of them.. I think that they are bit skinny to your barrel..
Any leading with them?

S



Forgot to add that the boolits were loaded with 5gr W231 and sized to .452

I was thinking the same thing seppos. I'm going to get another Lee push through and open it up to .453 and see how that works. Had a little bit of leading in the throat.

[Centaur 1]

Looking at the pics it does looks like gas cutting. I believe that you're right about needing a larger boolit. Will a cartridge that's loaded with an unsized boolit fit in the chamber?

[Jailer]

Looking at the pics it does looks like gas cutting. I believe that you're right about needing a larger boolit. Will a cartridge that's loaded with an unsized boolit fit in the chamber?

Not sure, I haven't tried that. Will have to work on that later. Headed over to a friends house to help him with his first smelt. [smilie=p:

[MtGun44]

Not filling the barrel in the 'grooves', gas cutting is the result. You need to beagle that
mold.

Bill

[Centaur 1]

I've heard everyone talk about slugging your barrel with egg sinkers, but I never bothered to buy any. I remove the barrel and use an oversized boolit as cast, and I hammer it through the barrel with a brass rod. I understand that there might be some springback effect by not using a very soft alloy, but it's darn close. For example my .380 LCP slugged at .3573" which sounds oversized, but the same boolit in my Glock 9mm comes out at .3552". The boolit I use is the Ranch Dog tl358-100 rf and it casts at .360". When I sized a boolit to .358" first, I still get the same diameter slugs. At .358" the .380 chambers just fine, but the 9mm glock just didn't seem to chamber as nice so I bought a .356" sizing die. So of course I had to reslug both barrels. The Glock 9mm slug came out the same size as before and the finished cartridges look and chamber much better. The interesting part was when I slugged the .380 barrel with the .356" boolit. You can tell by looking at them, that the outside diameter of the boolit never touches the bottom of the grooves. When you examine the lube grooves, you can see that no lead is displaced when driven through the barrel. I found that the micro-grooves on a tumble lube boolit are more delicate and they easily show lead displacement. Look on your boolits and how the bands get wider where they come in contact with the rifling, the portion of the boolit that was in the rifling grooves does not show any signs of widening. When I slug the larger diameter .3573" barrel with a .358" boolit, the tumble lube style grooves show distortion even though they're only sized down .0007".

[35remington]

You're not going to get rid of gas cutting entirely in your pistol. No matter how big the bullet is. If there's enough room for the case to let go of the bullet in the chamber, gasses will get by the bullet and precede it down the barrel. And gas cut the bullet. Such is the life of a plainbase bullet unprotected by a gascheck or a filler.

Ever see a high speed picture of a gun firing, any kind of gun? Gasses always precede the bullet out the barrel because they get past it early on.

At ignition there's plenty of room for gasses to get between case walls and bullet while it's in the chamber. No matter whether the bullet "fits" the barrel or not....because when initial gascutting occurs it really hasn't plugged the barrel yet.

We can talk about "obturation" and suchlike all we want, but the fact of the matter is that wheelweights and Glock barrels have a hard time preventing the gasses from getting by the bullet because the bullet doesn't obturate in the barrel or chamber in most instances. Even if bullets do obturate, they don't do it right away, and they don't prevent some gasses from getting by. Even if they're of the "right" hardness.

Most 45 ACP loads are on the shy side in that capability (obturation) to begin with.

What we're looking for is bullets that don't gas cut excessively. These provide a better base exit from the barrel, and loads with minor gascutting will shoot very well. A good soft lubricant can help prevent leading from building up even if the bullets are gascutting to some degree. Which is why many have a preference for softer lubes.

[RollerCam]

Since good, aftermarket, drop-in, stainless steel barrels for a Glock 21 can be had for about $100, why would anyone go against the numerous warnings from Glock and many other experienced users that say to NEVER shoot unplated lead in a factory polygonal barrel?

[thx997303]

Well there rollercam, you see, Lead works just fine in Glock barrels if you do things right.

Another thing is, for some people, $100 is a bit steep to just up and spend.

Glock also says don't shoot reloads. And yet, not many listen to that either.

Far as I'm concerned, just because Glock says it, doesn't mean it's gospel.

I personally would replace the barrel as a matter of preventing glocked brass before I'd worry about the rifling.

[Jailer]

You're not going to get rid of gas cutting entirely in your pistol. No matter how big the bullet is. If there's enough room for the case to let go of the bullet in the chamber, gasses will get by the bullet and precede it down the barrel. And gas cut the bullet. Such is the life of a plainbase bullet unprotected by a gascheck or a filler.

Ever see a high speed picture of a gun firing, any kind of gun? Gasses always precede the bullet out the barrel because they get past it early on.

At ignition there's plenty of room for gasses to get between case walls and bullet while it's in the chamber. No matter whether the bullet "fits" the barrel or not....because when initial gascutting occurs it really hasn't plugged the barrel yet.

We can talk about "obturation" and suchlike all we want, but the fact of the matter is that wheelweights and Glock barrels have a hard time preventing the gasses from getting by the bullet because the bullet doesn't obturate in the barrel or chamber in most instances. Even if bullets do obturate, they don't do it right away, and they don't prevent some gasses from getting by. Even if they're of the "right" hardness.

Most 45 ACP loads are on the shy side in that capability (obturation) to begin with.

What we're looking for is bullets that don't gas cut excessively. These provide a better base exit from the barrel, and loads with minor gascutting will shoot very well. A good soft lubricant can help prevent leading from building up even if the bullets are gascutting to some degree. Which is why many have a preference for softer lubes.

You are absolutely correct. I know it doesn't really show in the pictures, but the boolits are obturating just fine. The slight bevel at the base of the boolit is flattened and the base is slightly concave. They are working like they are suppose to, I think they just need to be slightly larger.

MtGun44, these boolits were sized to .452 so no need to beagle the mold since they drop at .453. I'll try some straight from the mold without sizing them and see how they perform. I really want to do this before the snow melts so I can recover them and compare them to what I found today. Hopefully I'll have some more recovered boolits before the weekend is over. I'd cast them tonight and shoot tomorrow but I'm running out of steam.


Since good, aftermarket, drop-in, stainless steel barrels for a Glock 21 can be had for about $100, why would anyone go against the numerous warnings from Glock and many other experienced users that say to NEVER shoot unplated lead in a factory polygonal barrel?

Because I can. :wink:

And if it doesn't work I'll be getting an aftermarket barrel. I want to try and exhaust my options with the stock barrel before I go this route though.

[frankenfab]

Those are great pics. I don't have an aftermarket barrel for mg Glock (36) because I haven't seen one available. I plan to try some cast in it anyway.

[35remington]

Bullet numbers 2 and 3 are pretty torched in a couple of locations. It could be a bit better but that may be Glock peculiarities showing up.

What's the load particulars?

[9.3X62AL]

Jailer--

FWIW, a couple years back I did a pretty extensive test series with my Glock 21 and castings. Three different boolits (none were tumble-lube), I tried sizing at both .452" and .454". Didn't matter, I got zero/zip/nada leading at all. Ran close to 400 boolits at one point without cleaning, still no leading. My barrel measured .453" on its "peaks", and .449" on its "flats". Alloy was 92/6/2, lube was Javelina Alox.

I got a Storm Lake barrel for my Glock 23, and have been meaning to try out the OEM 40 S&W Glock barrel to see if the hexagonal vs. octagonal form makes any difference. 9mm and 40 S&W aren't real lead-friendly calibers anyway, not like 45 ACP is at least. Call me too lazy to mess with the concept at present.

[geargnasher]

Some of that displaced lead, especially near the base, looks like it might have been moved during seating the boolit. I say this because the scratches and sloughed lead look typical of boolits pulled from cases that weren't expanded enough before seating.

Gear

[chris in va]

Since good, aftermarket, drop-in, stainless steel barrels for a Glock 21 can be had for about $100, why would anyone go against the numerous warnings from Glock and many other experienced users that say to NEVER shoot unplated lead in a factory polygonal barrel?

Hey guess what, I get much more leading with a traditional groove barrel than my stock Glock 21SF poly barrel. As a matter of fact I get ZERO leading with the Lee 452-230-2R mold and JPW.

Speak from experience, or just parroting what everyone else says?

[Jailer]

Jailer--

FWIW, a couple years back I did a pretty extensive test series with my Glock 21 and castings. Three different boolits (none were tumble-lube), I tried sizing at both .452" and .454". Didn't matter, I got zero/zip/nada leading at all. Ran close to 400 boolits at one point without cleaning, still no leading. My barrel measured .453" on its "peaks", and .449" on its "flats". Alloy was 92/6/2, lube was Javelina Alox.

I got a Storm Lake barrel for my Glock 23, and have been meaning to try out the OEM 40 S&W Glock barrel to see if the hexagonal vs. octagonal form makes any difference. 9mm and 40 S&W aren't real lead-friendly calibers anyway, not like 45 ACP is at least. Call me too lazy to mess with the concept at present.

I've read your posts repeatedly, that's what motivated me to try this out myself. I do also have some 230gr TC that I've pan lubed and shoot well in my Kimber that I also want to try. I'd just really like to see if I can get this tumble lube design to work. I'm also going to tumble these one more time and see if another coat helps.


Some of that displaced lead, especially near the base, looks like it might have been moved during seating the boolit. I say this because the scratches and sloughed lead look typical of boolits pulled from cases that weren't expanded enough before seating.

Gear

The cases shouldn't have caused this but you may be right. I'll expand the next ones a bit more and see if that makes a difference. I expanded the case just enough so that the base just dropped in the case without touching to avoid shaving any lead when they were seated. None did, but I'll expand the next ones a bit more anyway.


Thanks for the responses and tips guys. I'm just starting out in casting and you've all given me some good ideas to try out.

[Jailer]

Those are great pics. I don't have an aftermarket barrel for mg Glock (36) because I haven't seen one available. I plan to try some cast in it anyway.

Lone Wolf does make one for the 36. I've got one of their 9mm conversion barrels in my 22 and aside from the god awful logo it seems to work fine.

Lone Wolf G36 stock length barrel (http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1791&CAT=238)


Bullet numbers 2 and 3 are pretty torched in a couple of locations. It could be a bit better but that may be Glock peculiarities showing up.

What's the load particulars?

I had noticed that as well, that's why I'm going to try a slightly larger boolit. Load was 5.0gr W231 1.85 OAL.

[35remington]

Lube used?

The contoured, irregularly shaped channels between the rifling marks are pretty obviously gas cutting as seen on bullets 2 and 3. Assuming wheelweight hardness of around BHN 12 obturation is doubtful. If you were shooting 5.5 grains under a 230 I'd say it's more likely, but you're not.

[Multigunner]

I think I'd take Glock's word on the unsuitability of the issue barrel for lead bullets, and the chamber stretching and damaging cases enough that reloading the fired cases is unwise. Thats about the only claim that company makes that isn't self serving, overblown, or butt covering, and thus open to question.

[HammerMTB]

I think I'd take Glock's word on the unsuitability of the issue barrel for lead bullets, and the chamber stretching and damaging cases enough that reloading the fired cases is unwise. Thats about the only claim that company makes that isn't self serving, overblown, or butt covering, and thus open to question.

Except that claiming lead boolits are unsuitable for use in Glock or other polygonal barrels IS butt-covering and self-serving, and has been disproven many times over. I shoot plain air cooled WW boolits in a Glock bbl and in aftermarket bbls for Glocks, without leading. And I am not alone.
As far as their bbls leaving Glock smilies that render cases unusable, I believe that was true of some of the earlier versions, but not of late. None of my Glock or aftermarket bbls for .40S&W or 10MM leave bulges in cases, even when loaded to max pressures.
almost anything can and sometimes is reported on the internet. One has to think critically and discern the "meat from the bones" as internet info goes. Some is simply dated, some is flat out wrong.

[Bwana]

Except that claiming lead boolits are unsuitable for use in Glock or other polygonal barrels IS butt-covering and self-serving, and has been disproven many times over. I shoot plain air cooled WW boolits in a Glock bbl and in aftermarket bbls for Glocks, without leading. And I am not alone.
As far as their bbls leaving Glock smilies that render cases unusable, I believe that was true of some of the earlier versions, but not of late. None of my Glock or aftermarket bbls for .40S&W or 10MM leave bulges in cases, even when loaded to max pressures.
almost anything can and sometimes is reported on the internet. One has to think critically and discern the "meat from the bones" as internet info goes. Some is simply dated, some is flat out wrong.

Ah yes, the ability to "separate the wheat from the chaff". It is nice to have this ability. At least as far as guns and munitions are concerned.

[Jailer]

Lube used?

The contoured, irregularly shaped channels between the rifling marks are pretty obviously gas cutting as seen on bullets 2 and 3. Assuming wheelweight hardness of around BHN 12 obturation is doubtful. If you were shooting 5.5 grains under a 230 I'd say it's more likely, but you're not.

Lube used was 45/45/10.


I think I'd take Glock's word on the unsuitability of the issue barrel for lead bullets, and the chamber stretching and damaging cases enough that reloading the fired cases is unwise. Thats about the only claim that company makes that isn't self serving, overblown, or butt covering, and thus open to question.

Not sure where you are getting your info from but I've never seen a glock smiley on any of my 45 brass and I've shot plenty. As far as lead in Glocks goes, how do you explain the sucess others have had? It is possible, but as I'm finding out not nearly as easy as other guns. I'm not giving up yet though, I don't mind a good challenge.


Except that claiming lead boolits are unsuitable for use in Glock or other polygonal barrels IS butt-covering and self-serving, and has been disproven many times over. I shoot plain air cooled WW boolits in a Glock bbl and in aftermarket bbls for Glocks, without leading. And I am not alone.
As far as their bbls leaving Glock smilies that render cases unusable, I believe that was true of some of the earlier versions, but not of late. None of my Glock or aftermarket bbls for .40S&W or 10MM leave bulges in cases, even when loaded to max pressures.
almost anything can and sometimes is reported on the internet. One has to think critically and discern the "meat from the bones" as internet info goes. Some is simply dated, some is flat out wrong.

I've actually found our gen 4 Glocks 22's leave a more pronounced smiley then our gen 3 did. My guess is the 40's with less support than the 9's and the higher pressure than the 45's is what makes it so prevalent in that round.


Well I loaded up some 230gr TC sized to .452 pan lubed with 5 gr of W231 this afternoon and let em rip into the snow in my back yard. Lube used was equal parts beeswax, paraffin and Vaseline. Fired 25 rounds and was only able to find one of them this time. Still a bit of gas cutting and a very small amount of leading in the throat.

I dug out my mic and checked a few of the un sized boolits I have here on my desk. The 200gr TL SWC mics right at .454 and the 230gr TC mics right at .453. I'm going to cast a few more of both tonight and then fire them as cast and see how that works out.

This is turning out to be a fun project. :smile:

[geargnasher]

The cases shouldn't have caused this but you may be right. I'll expand the next ones a bit more and see if that makes a difference. I expanded the case just enough so that the base just dropped in the case without touching to avoid shaving any lead when they were seated. None did, but I'll expand the next ones a bit more anyway.

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about expanding the case, not flaring the case mouth. In order to expand the case more, you need a bigger expander spud, and probably a longer one that will expand the case at least .025" deeper than the boolit base when the boolit is fully seated. If the case is more than about .002" smaller than the boolit, the case will crush the boolit a bit when seated fully, and the displaced lead can look like it does on your recovered boolits. I was just throwing that out there for thought, perhaps your boolits had some lead smearing before they were even fired. Pull a seated one and see how it compares.

Gear

[Jailer]

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about expanding the case, not flaring the case mouth. In order to expand the case more, you need a bigger expander spud, and probably a longer one that will expand the case at least .025" deeper than the boolit base when the boolit is fully seated. If the case is more than about .002" smaller than the boolit, the case will crush the boolit a bit when seated fully, and the displaced lead can look like it does on your recovered boolits. I was just throwing that out there for thought, perhaps your boolits had some lead smearing before they were even fired. Pull a seated one and see how it compares.

Gear

Your right I did misunderstand you. I did wonder why flaring the case mouth would make any difference. I pulled a few last night that I had previously loaded. They measured .451 at the base but did not smear the lead, just swaged it down. I was surprised to see that the lube wasn't smeared off the boolits when I pulled them. That 45/45/10 is some tenacious stuff.

What expander would have a larger and longer expander spud that would work? I have a set of 454 casull dies, would the expander die from that set work? Also if you expand the case more to seat the boolits without swaging them down wouldn't that possibly introduce some chambering problems? I was just thinking of starting with a larger boolit hoping it wouldn't swage down as much when it is seated.

[thx997303]

A member here makes custom sized expander plugs.

Buckshot I believe.

[Jailer]

A member here makes custom sized expander plugs.

Buckshot I believe.

Already got one coming for another project I'm working on. If I do need a sizing die slightly larger, I'll probably just open up my .452 die a bit using buckshots method posted on castpics.

[thx997303]

Expander plug, not boolit sizer.

[geargnasher]

JimInPHX made several for me, I think Deltaenterprises might be willing to make them, too. The ones Jim made for me and a couple of other members were specifically for the Lee Powder Through Expander dies. I think RCBS and Lyman reloading dies have different sized expanders you can buy for the pistol calibers. You want a spud that will both expand the case and flare the mouth at the same time.

Gear

[Jailer]

Expander plug, not boolit sizer.


JimInPHX made several for me, I think Deltaenterprises might be willing to make them, too. The ones Jim made for me and a couple of other members were specifically for the Lee Powder Through Expander dies. I think RCBS and Lyman reloading dies have different sized expanders you can buy for the pistol calibers. You want a spud that will both expand the case and flare the mouth at the same time.

Gear

I'm with you guys now. I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but if you bear with me I eventually get it. :mrgreen:

I'll seat a couple of unsized boolits and see where they end up after I pull them. If they are still swaging down to small I'll have to go with the oversized expander. Thanks for the info.

[geargnasher]

Do you have a kinetic bullet puller? If so, pull a boolit from a finished round and measure it. Compare to another boolit before seating to see if the case is swaging it smaller. Swaging can be an issue with microband boolits.

If no kinetic puller, take the the die out of your press, run a cartridge up all the way in the ram, grab the nose with a pair of wire cutters and lower the ram to pull the boolit out.

If your pulled boolit is more than .0005" smaller than it was before seating, you need a harder alloy or a larger expander.

Gear

[Jailer]

I did measure a few pulled TL 200gr SWC yesterday. They are being swaged down from .452 to .451 at the base from being seated. I have yet to measure the 230gr TC. Just got done casting some more so I'll have to follow up tomorrow.

[geargnasher]

Well, there's your problem. You said in the OP that they look like they need to be sized a little bigger and you were getting a little throat leading. If your .452" boolits were still .452" when they hit the throat on the way out of the case, your results might be better.

What kind of dies are you using?

Gear

[Jailer]

My 230gr TC did show less gas cutting and had less leading but it was still there. I was only able to find one of the ones I shot so I've only got a one bullet assessment but the throat leading was very minimal and came out quite easily. Definitely much less than with the TL 200gr SWC.

I'm using Lee dies.

[thegreatdane]

as promised:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/drobberson/Forum/IMG_2011_02_27_4925-s.jpg
from the left: fired glock 21 barrel, slugged KKM g21 barrel, fired g21 barrel

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/drobberson/Forum/IMG_2011_02_27_4919-s.jpg
from the left: fired G21, fired G21 KKM

All had zero leading. the 230TC loads were 4.0gn Titegroup, 200SWC, 4.8gn Titegroup Of course, the fired ones suffered a little deformation in snow/ice/dirt.

It is my belief that glock barrels can accept cast, assuming they're sized correctly. They caliper a strong .452 so a good .452 (loaded mildly) or a .453 (warmer load) will suffice.

Bottom line: I'm not afraid to run cast in the glock; however, I'd prefer a traditionally rifled KKM - due to case support.

[geargnasher]

If it fits, most of the time it will shoot. Those are great pics, thanks for sharing. A very good illustration of good fit from a fired boolit, especially in the "polygonal" rifling.

Gear

[Jailer]

Well I figured I post todays update. Loaded and fire 25 more 230gr TC over 5gr of W231. These were loaded as cast at .453. Much better results. Just the tiniest amount of leading on the leading edge of the rifling and none in the grooves. Recovered 2 slugs from the snow and they looked great. Perfect rifling marks on them.

So I figured I'd seat one and pull it to see how it measures. The pulled boolit measured .452. Looks like I'm going to need an oversize expander plug as was suggested to make these things work.

At least I'm making progress. :Fire:

[farmer66]

I am going through the same thing, do you know the diameter of your current expander plug?

Ken

[Jailer]

I am going through the same thing, do you know the diameter of your current expander plug?

Ken

No, I haven't made it that far yet. Got side tracked with other things tonight but I will follow up soon.

[geargnasher]

Your right I did misunderstand you. I did wonder why flaring the case mouth would make any difference. I pulled a few last night that I had previously loaded. They measured .451 at the base but did not smear the lead, just swaged it down. I was surprised to see that the lube wasn't smeared off the boolits when I pulled them. That 45/45/10 is some tenacious stuff.

What expander would have a larger and longer expander spud that would work? I have a set of 454 casull dies, would the expander die from that set work? Also if you expand the case more to seat the boolits without swaging them down wouldn't that possibly introduce some chambering problems? I was just thinking of starting with a larger boolit hoping it wouldn't swage down as much when it is seated.

I missed that second paragraph, sorry. I don't think 454 Casull expanders would work because they are for J-words, too, but it would bear mentioning. My Lee .44 magnum PTE dies have virtually no expander, just a pilot for the bell. They figure the bullet will do the expanding I guess.

As far as making your finished ammo fatter, yes, it will do that if you're seating a .001" larger boolit in such a way that it isn't getting swaged. Brass and chamber dimensions are set up for .451" jacketed ball bullets, and loaded diameter is based on that, too. Normally the .001" difference with cast is no problem for production chambers which have a built-in tolerance for dirt, tolerance stacking, etc. What you want to do is start and finish with a .452" boolit, and you will need an expander that is .451" at least to make this happen.

Now, let me tell you a trick. With Lee PTE dies, you can take the expander out of the .45 ACP and modify it. This works for only this caliber and certain weight/length boolits due to the design of the plug. Take the expander plug out of the die and use a tapered punch, hammer, and a block of wood to expand the business end of the spud. Be careful, it is brittle and can easily split, but you should be able to get the tip to enlarge from the .448" or so that is is now to .451" or so. It will be long enough to expand the case deeply enough for bevel-based Lee boolits in the 230-grain range and PB boolits in the 200-grain range, while providing a step in the case to prevent the boolit from getting seated deeper under recoil.

If you have a MAP gas torch or oxy-acetalyne setup, it would be best to temper the tip of the expander slighly before expanding it, then reharden after you get it where you want it. Remember, only the very tip needs to be enlarged, not the whole spud, since the tip will act like an expander "ball" in rifle dies. When done, mine had a visible bell in the tip. Your cases will have the "wasp waist" look to them, but will work well and you can use the part you already have on hand. Just remember, you won't be able to load safe J-word ammo with the same spud, so you will need to get an extra expander die ($11) or a spud from Lee.

Gear

[HammerMTB]

Now, let me tell you a trick. With Lee PTE dies, you can take the expander out of the .45 ACP and modify it. This works for only this caliber and certain weight/length boolits due to the design of the plug. Take the expander plug out of the die and use a tapered punch, hammer, and a block of wood to expand the business end of the spud. Be careful, it is brittle and can easily split, but you should be able to get the tip to enlarge from the .448" or so that is is now to .451" or so. It will be long enough to expand the case deeply enough for bevel-based Lee boolits in the 230-grain range and PB boolits in the 200-grain range, while providing a step in the case to prevent the boolit from getting seated deeper under recoil.

If you have a MAP gas torch or oxy-acetylene setup, it would be best to temper the tip of the expander slightly before expanding it, then reharden after you get it where you want it. Remember, only the very tip needs to be enlarged, not the whole spud, since the tip will act like an expander "ball" in rifle dies. When done, mine had a visible bell in the tip. Your cases will have the "wasp waist" look to them, but will work well and you can use the part you already have on hand. Just remember, you won't be able to load safe J-word ammo with the same spud, so you will need to get an extra expander die ($11) or a spud from Lee.

Gear

Well now, there's a helluva good idea. Nice thinking, Gear!

[Jailer]

Great idea gear, but I should have left it to someone a bit less hamfisted. :(

Oh well, new expander plug is only $3 from Lee.

[Jailer]

Well, an update is in order. I contacted Lee about an oversize or custom size expander plug. This was the response I got:


You could try using an Expander Plug from 45 Schofield, 45 Win Mag or 455 Webley Mark II Powder Thru Dies for $3.00 each. These are measured at .451 rather than .450. If you would like one that is larger than this, it would have to be custom made and it would be $30.00.

So I ordered one of each. I'll measure them when they arrive and see how they might work. But of course me being the impatient person that I am I just couldn't wait a few days for the new parts to arrive. I have a set of 454 casull dies and I figured the expander should be larger than 45 ACP. It is but not by much. My original 45 ACP expander measured .448 at the base and had a slow taper to .450 right before the flare. The 454 expander measures .450 at the bottom and slowly tapers to .452. The only problem is the upper portion of the 454 expander is much shorter than the 45 ACP.

I made a trip to my local hardware and picked up a 1/4" brass nipple and cut the threads off both ends. I ground it down until I had a spacer that measured about .400 in length. I say about because that's the best I could do with a grinder and a dremel. Anyway it works good and the boolits aren't getting swaged when I seat them with this combination installed in the 45 ACP expander die. I know, I'll have new parts in a few days that will replace this and work just fine but I couldn't wait and had to know if it would work. I'd still like an expander plug that is .050 longer.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/expander.jpg

[35remington]

If you are intending to run the bullet size so close to the expander size, (only a thou difference between bullet sized diameter and expander diameter) then you absolutely must check bullet retention in the case to ensure the bullet will not get set back in feeding.

And you must do it with a representation of every case brand you have present in your stash of mixed cases.

Here's the cold, hard reality; 45 ACP cases do not all have equivalent wall thickness. A thou expander ball/bullet diameter fit in one brand can and will yield poor case wall tension with another. For example, Federal brass offers noticeably more tension using the same expander/bullet than Winchester brass, which offers more than R-P, which offers more than the older R - P.

This is why the manufacturers, typically, go more than a thou under with their expander.... to prevent the very, very undesirable situation wherein the bullet gets setback on feeding using the very typical situation of widely mixed cases.

Such is courting a case head blowout.

No one can communicate to you exactly how this will work; you must try it yourself.

Given that you've achieved very good results, minimal to no leading with your current setup and expander diameter (as per your comments earlier with the update) I wouldn't be too hasty about consigning it to the trash can. Make sure the case wall tension is adequate for ALL case brands in your 45 ACP stash, including any old cases like the R - P that are very thin and setback prone with sizing/expanding that has adequate tension with other brands.

I offer this as a cautionary note. The pursuit of "perfection" in cast bullet fit in autoloading pistol cases has potentially serious drawbacks, and a thin case wall brand mixed in with brands that are thicker walled is easy to miss, and can ruin your day.

Die manufactures supply expander plugs that tend to average about .449" in diameter for the 45 ACP for this very reason.....safety. It's not to be ignored.

I know tips have been suggested that say this should work, and it very may will and I'm not questioning that; I'm asking you to be sure and check with all the case brands that you have. Theory and actuality often don't coincide. If running a bullet/expander difference of a thou, you cannot let a different bullet diameter (sized versus unsized, etc.) slip in there accidentally, either. Having a "step" in the case below the bullet is not a complete substitute for adequate case wall tension on the sides of the bullet.....for the reason that cases normally have the "step" and the case wall tension from good friction fit to hold the bullet in place. Eliminating the case wall tension may cost you in a thin wall case. In such cases the "step" isn't present to a significant degree, and is not adequate on its own.

Ask me about how I know if you wish.

[Jailer]

Thanks for the tips 35remington. I actually segregated all my brass and have been using nothing but Winchester brass for my testing. I'm loading these latest ones as cast at .453 so neck tension, or lack thereof, shouldn't be an issue with a .451 expander.

I had a chance to load up 25 more and fire them today. Loaded the 200gr TL SWC and was able to recover 7 of them. They look great but I'm still getting just the tiniest bit of leading at the leading edge of the chamber but none anywhere else. I think I'm going to have to play around with alloy to see if I can eliminate this last obstacle. The boolits were AC WW with 2% tin added.

I'll try to get a pic of the leading to get some opinions from others here that are much more knowledgeable than I am.

[35remington]

Mixups are the problem.....452 bullets instead of .453", or the inevitable range pickup brass that slips in the reloading queue unnoticed.

Be careful, and have fun experimenting. Bullet/case fit is often not "perfectionism" friendly.

[Jailer]

Took a couple pics of the leading. Not the greatest but at least it will give a visual of what I'm trying to describe.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/barrelleading2.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/barrelleading.jpg

[35remington]

Pictures like that make me think of the smoothness (or lack thereof) of the transition between the chamber stop shoulder and the start of the full diameter of the barrel.

Especially since you said your bullet seating technique plowed up no lead forward of the case mouth.

It appears to be before the rifling origin, which makes me think you've got barrel issues to deal with. That's not the typical leading view I was expecting.

That's being speculative rather than certain on my part.

Any chance of a chamber cast to resolve the gun's dimensions somewhat better? Perfect bullets in an imperfect chamber may still cause issues.

[Jailer]

What's weird is I didn't get this leading at all with the 230gr TC cone but those were a standard lube groove boolit. The leading was only at the leading edge of the rifling and not at all in the chamber. I found a couple more of those that I shot a few days ago and they look great.

I'm in the process of cropping and uploading some pics of the recovered boolits but I have to run my nephew home first so it will be a bit before I post them.

[35remington]

Perhaps because of how a particular bullet's ogive/shoulder/bearing surface transition interacts with the barrel's (maybe) sharp edges, perhaps.

Or perhaps not. I don't know.

[45r]

I've usually have good results using unique and the 201 keith in my kimber 45acp.I use heat treated boolits.The rifling is shallow in most autos.I use flitz or JB's to smooth things up,If you shoot hardball a lot the antimony will eventually smooth the throat.

[Jailer]

Ok, the boolit pics. These are the 200gr TL SWC that I recovered today. They were loaded as cast at .453 over 5.0gr of W231.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/recoveredGlockboolits.jpg

Number 3 from above

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/recoveredGlockboolits3.jpg

Number 4

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/recoveredGlockboolits4.jpg

Number 5

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/recoveredGlockboolits5.jpg

Number 6

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/recoveredGlockboolits6.jpg

And these are a couple of the 230gr TC that I shot the other day and found this afternoon. I'm going to load some more of these tonight with the larger expander that I'm using and see how they shoot tomorrow.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/230TC453.jpg

[35remington]

Sometimes we get overly obsessed with how the bullets look, rather than how they shoot. As long as they shoot well, and leading is minimized with an appropriate lead alloy, then you've done all you can do with bullet dimensions, hardness, and lube.

You'll probably never completely remove the gascutting, but who cares?

If you can get through a whole shooting session with good accuracy and minimal leading, then degrees of perfectionism are probably not worth it.

Aside from any gun related issues regarding chamber/rifling dimensionality, that is.

What really matters is differences that, well......matter. Degrees of perfectionism may not be actually worthwhile in terms of return for the effort expended, and if case frictional fit is compromised, such irrelevant perfectionism should be abandoned entirely in favor of something less hazardous.

[Jailer]

Sometimes we get overly obsessed with how the bullets look, rather than how they shoot. As long as they shoot well, and leading is minimized with an appropriate lead alloy, then you've done all you can do with bullet dimensions, hardness, and lube.

You'll probably never completely remove the gascutting, but who cares?

If you can get through a whole shooting session with good accuracy and minimal leading, then degrees of perfectionism are probably not worth it.

Aside from any gun related issues regarding chamber/rifling dimensionality, that is.

What really matters is differences that, well......matter. Degrees of perfectionism may not be actually worthwhile in terms of return for the effort expended, and if case frictional fit is compromised, such irrelevant perfectionism should be abandoned entirely in favor of something less hazardous.

Good point. I do have a tendency to beat myself up in the attempt to achieve perfection.

That's part of the reason I posted the leading pictures, to get opinions from others if it is something to eliminate or just run it. I guess a more extensive shooting session is in order as well as some shots on paper to see how they shoot. So far all of these have been shot into the snow to recover them. I'll check back in after I've put more shots down range and see how things go. Temps are suppose to be high 30's and low 40's the next couple days so I should be able to get some shooting in.

[Jailer]

Well, I think it's time to seek out an aftermarket barrel. No matter what I try I can't seem to get this thing to shoot without leading the barrel.

I shot 75 rounds today and with each magazine the leading got worse and progressed down the barrel. This is obviously a project for someone with much more knowledge than me so I'm giving up on it. I'm going to do some research and figure out what aftermarket barrel to get and start over from there.

Thanks to all who tried to help out with your suggestions, I appreciate it.

[seppos]

Better policy is: never give up!
As in the TL bullet the distance bitween the lube grooves is so short, and if the size is already correct the reason could be your lead alloy..
If it is too soft for the peak pressure, the pressure pushes the gasses thru the lead, causing the gas cut.. You could either test harder alloy or lower the peak pressure with powder that burns slower..
Smaller peak pressure= less pressure to the lead, and smaller likelyhood to get the gascuts to the boolit.. In traditional lube groover you have thicker lead for the gasses to punch thru.. Thats why it holds the gasses back even if you have the same alloy..

S

[Jailer]

Well, I only recovered one of the boolits that I shot today and there isn't any signs of gas cutting. These were all the tradition lube groove 230gr TC. Rifling marks look great so size seems to be right. Not sure what to try for a harder alloy. You'd think that WW would be plenty hard enough for a low pressure round like 45 ACP.

What would be a slower powder than W231 to try out?

[seppos]

WW water quenched?
Actually.. I looked the pics of the barrel.. The cartridge chamber is visible, but where is the throat?
Looks like there is kind of a extra ring in front of the chamber..
Make a chamber cast or swage it with a spend case filled with lead and lead bullet..
If there is no throat, but a step in the barrel, that scrapes the lead from the boolit..
S

[thegreatdane]

Well, I think it's time to seek out an aftermarket barrel. No matter what I try I can't seem to get this thing to shoot without leading the barrel.

I shot 75 rounds today and with each magazine the leading got worse and progressed down the barrel. This is obviously a project for someone with much more knowledge than me so I'm giving up on it. I'm going to do some research and figure out what aftermarket barrel to get and start over from there.

Thanks to all who tried to help out with your suggestions, I appreciate it.

If you decide to go this route, I strongly recommend KKM

[Jailer]

Well, I just couldn't give up on this. I tried water dropping a few of the 200gr TL SWC boolits and loaded those up. Pretty much the same results, very minor leading at the leading edge of the rifling after 50 rounds. A few passes with a brush cleaned it out so I'm wondering now if I'm just being anal retentive about this.

I stopped by the somewhat local fun shop (Jays) this weekend and picked up some power pistol. Loaded up 50 more and I'm going to try those tomorrow. If that doesn't work then I'm getting an aftermarket barrel since I'm pretty much out of options at this point.

[Jailer]

Well the lightest load of power pistol leaded like crazy so that didn't work. But, I may have found something that does.

Got my .453 sizing die from Buckshot and loaded up 150 rounds. So far the most I've shot in one session was 50. Shot all 150 and the results were the same as shooting the first 25. A slight amount of leading on the leading edge of the rifling but none anywhere else. Looks like 200gr SWC sized to .453 tumble lubed in 45/45/10 and 5gr of W231 seems to be what works best. With this very minimal amount of leading I can shoot a practice session or an entire match without any worries.

And of course I figure this out as my KKM barrel is due to be delivered today.... :veryconfu