Non GC for .308 Winchester

[cisco05154]

I am looking for suggestions and success stories for a mold for a non-gas checked bullet for the .308 Winchester. this will just be for paper punching but I want to shoot 100, 200 and even 300 yards, so accuracy is really needed. This is through a Hart 1:11 heavy barrel.

Thanks,

Scott

[Doc Highwall]

Your velocities are going to be limited to 1300-1400 fps max about the same as 22Lr. I would suggest a gas check bullet like SAECO #315 175gr TCGC and AA5744 powder. Here is a five shot group at 300 yards using that combination.

[Larry Gibson]

Doc knows this one really well. If it's accuracy with your rifle and a PB bullet you want then I'd heed his advise.

Larry Gibson

[gnoahhh]

For a 100yd. or less plinker/target bullet I like the old Lyman 311241 155 rnpb over a pinch of fast burning pistol powder. I never fired it out of a .308 but have done so in a bunch of '06's, .30/40's and .30/30's. Too much fun by half!

[HangFireW8]

Once you get past 100 yards, drop and windage is going to make shooting difficult, unless you like simulating 1,000 yard shooting and have the sight elevation to do so.

If you don't like gas checks, I don't know how you feel about paper patching... but technically, that would be the way to achieve this goal.

-HF

[geargnasher]

Something with a spire point would be the way to go, but like has been said your velocity will be limited to 1400 fps max if you want any semblence of accuracy, expecially at the long range. You want light boolits too, easier to stabilize at low velocities. Buffeting will occur at the subsonic transition, which will likely be before or at the first 100, might make grouping go to pieces after that.

I personally would go with a 150-170 grain spire point boolit or high-bc roundnose, use a quality gas check and lube, and launch them gently with lots of very slow powder at about 2250 fps. That's been the most accurate way to shoot long range out of my ten-twist .30-'06.

Gear

[bruce drake]

I have a Lyman 311410 mold that cast a 130gr PB boolit that I've been playing around as a plinker in a 7.62x39 barreled Mauser that I have. It does decent for 50 to 100 yards which is the furthest I've fired it.

It might work for your 308 Win if you keep the velocity to the proper level.

[rintinglen]

Plain base boolits don't seem to work very well beyond a 100 yards. I have a 311-224. it casts a 200 grain boolit and is one of the designs that they came out wit a hundred and 10 years ago for use in the old 30 US Krag rifles. I tried it in my 30-06 and in my Winchester 30-40 and it wasn't very good. Any good gas check design will outshoot it, and will do so at much higher velocities. I haven't been tempted to try any other 30 caliber PB boolits. A lee sizer will crimp gas checks just fine.

[NSP64]

I have a Lee soupcan with one cavity modified to PB. I shoot them @1400 fps accuracy is good to 100yrds. I dont have access to further ranges so I don't know how they act out there. I have a Savage 308 1-10.

[NHlever]

Wind, and gravity are your enemies at longer ranges. I wouldn't start with anything less than 150 grain weight in .30 caliber. I like the looks of the newer RCBS 30-150 PB cowboy boolit, but I'm sure there are others even more suited to your goals. Keep us posted as you go along. I'm sure there are many folks thinking the same way with the increased price, and reduced availability of gas checks.
I think geargnasher's post says a lot of good things.

[Bret4207]

I would take issue with those who state PB boolits don't work good past 100 yards. You need to qualify that with "in our modern rifles, using our methods, PB doesn't work that well". If you doubt me look into the scores of the Schutzen era shooters- 28 to 38 caliber rifles shooting PB boolits and the shooters making sometimes still unequaled groups, and from the OFFHAND position at that!!!

I think the problem we have with PB designs is that all the little variables in static and dynamic fit are magnified. Add in the reduced velocities of cast, wind drift, sonic barrier disruption, barrel time, rifling and chambers not cut for cast, dies not cut for cast, etc., etc. and it can add up to be a real doctorate level exercise to get groups equaling or even approaching those of GC boolits at longer ranges.

It can be done, no doubt. But it's a lot more complex than find a mould, drop some powder and bang away.

[gnoahhh]

Bret nailed it. Making PB bullets perform at longer ranges is what separates the men from the boys. But, before going down that road, be aware that those magnificent scores fired by the Schuetzen artists were accomplished with muzzle/breech loaded or breech-seated bullets not fixed ammunition. Therein lies the real challenge.

As an aside, I think the decline of Western Civilization can be traced along with the decline in shooting sports. "Back in the day", the top riflemen- in the Shuetzen game and others- were household names, and societal values were rock solid. Now, the names of the top shooters are largely unknown or even reviled in some quarters and societal values are questionable at best.

[rhbrink]

I think that Bret and gnoahhh pretty much nailed it, but I have been thinking about a 30 cal boolit plain base that would shoot very well out to 200 I'm talking about match accuracy. I know for a fact that the black powder long range guys do it rather easily all the way out to 1000 yards of course at the extended range it ain't so easy been there and done that and not that well either! But I have a 38-55 that I built up for BPCR a number of years ago that I did shoot quite a bit of modern powder in and at the time I thought that it shot rather well out to 200 yards. In the next couple of months I'm planning on shooting this out to 200 yards in some CBA matches so this should give me some idea just how well a fixed ammo plain base boolit will shoot.

I really think that this subject is something that needs to be explored somewhat because as not only is the price of gas checks keep rising wheel weights are getting harder to find along with the price of antimony and tin just keeps rising also. With a plain base boolit shooting much slower you can keep the alloys much simpler and cheaper I might add. But accuracy is the real issue at least out to 200 yards for me anyway.

[Doc Highwall]

One thing to remember about the black powder shooting at 1000 yards is the heavy bullets they use have high ballistic coefficients. One of the top cartridges for 200 yard shooting with plain base bullets was the 32-40 Winchester with bullets of around 196 grains. This summer I will be testing my 1885 Highwall in 30-30 Winchester with the group buy 311041PB and the NOE 308403 bullet. I am designing the expander die now with different size expander's in .0005" steps to adjust for bullet grip and also for my 308 Winchester. It can be done with plain base bullets but it will be an exersize in record keeping and tinkering and having a lathe and bridgport will not hurt.

[rhbrink]

One thing to remember about the black powder shooting at 1000 yards is the heavy bullets they use have high ballistic coefficients. One of the top cartridges for 200 yard shooting with plain base bullets was the 32-40 Winchester with bullets of around 196 grains. This summer I will be testing my 1885 Highwall in 30-30 Winchester with the group buy 311041PB and the NOE 308403 bullet. I am designing the expander die now with different size expander's in .0005" steps to adjust for bullet grip and also for my 308 Winchester. It can be done with plain base bullets but it will be an exersize in record keeping and tinkering and having a lathe and bridgport will not hurt.
And mold making ability a great skill to have also! I think that it could be done but it would take a great deal of experiment and trail and error. I have had in mind a modified Hutson design for a while, a good ballistic nose, a short bore ride, tapered section the fit the throat perfectly, and a groove ride section that makes for a perfect fit in the fired case. Little or no sizing of the brass or boolit and a nice gentle start and shove down the barrel. It would be a lot easier to achieve with the 32-40 and maybe the 38-55 than the .308. Once a long time ago when I was having a Schuetzen rifle built I was in a serious conversation with the gunsmith a very good one I might add. He made the comment that there was "NO" cartidge made with a shoulder that would shoot cast boolits as accurate as a straight case. I don't know but would that bet he is pretty close to being right.

[nanuk]

rhbrink: the boolit you are refering to.... isn't there a discussion on GB about such a thing for the 30-06 that just sits in the case about 1/10 inches? Designed primarily for the '03 or something like that?

[Doc Highwall]

The bullet is an active group buy right now by NOE 308403.

[HangFireW8]

I would take issue with those who state PB boolits don't work good past 100 yards.

I would, too. Especially if they're talking about 45/70!

[rhbrink]

I have looked at that group buy the first thing is that boolit is designed to be loaded and shot one at a time at a range. Use the same case don't size punch the primer out reprime drop powder seat boolit by hand and shoot. I really think that boolit is too small in the nose section and will be surprised if it shoots very well past 100 yards if that.

What I'm thinking is a boolit seated in the case to be used as fixed ammo, carry in your pocket, load in magazine and feed out of the magazine. And shoot MOA out to 200 yards. Just dreaming? Probably?

A couple of boolits that look like they might have design potential are the NEI #93 scaled down to 30 cal. and the Lyman 311644 I have one of those mold but like the usual Lyman junk to casts too small, interesting design though.

[Bret4207]

And mold making ability a great skill to have also! I think that it could be done but it would take a great deal of experiment and trail and error. I have had in mind a modified Hutson design for a while, a good ballistic nose, a short bore ride, tapered section the fit the throat perfectly, and a groove ride section that makes for a perfect fit in the fired case. Little or no sizing of the brass or boolit and a nice gentle start and shove down the barrel. It would be a lot easier to achieve with the 32-40 and maybe the 38-55 than the .308. Once a long time ago when I was having a Schuetzen rifle built I was in a serious conversation with the gunsmith a very good one I might add. He made the comment that there was "NO" cartidge made with a shoulder that would shoot cast boolits as accurate as a straight case. I don't know but would that bet he is pretty close to being right.

Frank Marshall of CBA fame opined the same thing. His theory was the venturi effect of the shoulder magnified pressure disruption on the base, that the sharper the shoulder the worse the problem. I have a hard time picturing that, but it's an interesting theory. Uncle Frank was seldom full of horse feathers, so it's something to keep in mind.

CBA is offering the collected works of Frank Marshall on CD for $10.00 IIRC, well worth the money.

[Doc Highwall]

Bret, do you have to be a member of CBA in order to buy the CD? I would like to purchase one for myself.

[Bret4207]

Nope, anyone can go to the site and buy I think. Might have to join the site, but I think the mailing addy is there in case you don't want to.

[rhbrink]

I have that CD it is worth whatever it takes to get it, if I'm not misken there were only a certain amount of them made but could be wrong on that.