Interesting DP85 experience

[Marlin Junky]

I loaded up 11 rounds of 30-30 with DP85 for the range yesterday which produced interesting results that suggest a follow up experiment and I thought a little input from the cast-boolit bunch might help narrow down the list of variables so here goes...

Having worked a lot with H380, H414 and W760 in the 30-30, I figured a capacity load of DP85 wouldn't strain anything so I went right for 37 grains in Winchester cases without hesitation. DP85 is, according to AA, "...very close to Ramshot HUNTER". The boolit was my all time favorite for my '50 vintage 336A... RCBS 30-180FN at 196 grains checked (BHN 14+). Since I get about 50 more fps with F215's opposed to F210's when using H414, I decided to try the former since I was hoping to break 2000 fps. Shooting was done at 100 yards and it took six of my 11 rounds and the help of a buddy with a spotting scope to see what was going on. I usually shoot at 75 yards because I need a taller front sight (my rifle shoots way high with max. loads).

After getting two shots within an inch at the top of the paper, I settled in to shoot a nice 5 shot group (with iron sights) that measures under 1.5" C-C. Problem is my string stats in the order it was fired: 2066, 2045, 2066, 2070, 2089, 2059, 2088, 2075, 2121, 2113 and 2132 fps. Again, the last five rounds went into less than 1.5" (at 100 yds). I started with a clean barrel (wish I hadn't) and I was using a very slick lube I concocted with about 9 Tbs. of oil (3 each of mineral, castor and extra light olive oil) per pound of beeswax. I don't know why I started with a clean AND cold barrel but unfortunately I did. My old stand by load of the same boolit with F210 and 33 grains Special Ball (I think this powder is extinct now) produced an extreme spread of 36 fps and a std. dev. of 8.5 for 26 rounds after things had warmed up a bit and the barrel became seasoned again... I'll never clean that barrel again! Well, I'm just saying that, I have no clue whether the clean, cold barrel was the cause of the wide extreme spread while using DP85. Perhaps it was the F215 vs. the F210, or maybe DP85/Ramshot Hunter needs more pressure to stabilized. I don't shoot a heavier boolit in this particular 30-30 and I can't get anymore DP85 in the case. Any thoughts?

MJ

[felix]

MJ, you already know the answer. The 85 powder is just too slow! ... felix

[swheeler]

MJunky; I think I would try a different primer, WLR if you have them . I have had similar results in the 308 with 844& 846, found out ESpreads dropped when I used a standard primer instead of a magnum. Looks like a little primer experimentation is in order, 10 rounds will give you a handle on it.

[Marlin Junky]

swheeler,

I will try the same of everything with the exception of a Fed210 primer. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do so for a while 'cause I'm getting dragged off to some family festivities in PA on Monday and won't return to the loading bench 'til December.

Felix,

I don't think "too slow" is the answer by itself because 37 grains of W-760 averages 2120 fps with the same boolit at 195 grains (cast a tiny bit harder; i.e., BHN 15+) with single digit std. dev's. I would tend to agree with you if my velocities were significantly lower but in this case (at this point) I think the large extreme spread was due mostly to the barrel condition... does that sound feasible? Darn, I hate this! If I go back to the range again this month I may be facing another divorce :-)

MJ

[felix]

MJ, 760/414 is considerably faster than 4831, and somewhat faster than 4350, between the two is where your DP85 lies. You just can't pack enough powder in that 30-30 case using the 85 to burn correctly. You will be lucky to find a primer that just might make things work as you expect. Not impossible. Also, try holding the boolit tighter in the case which could help too. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Felix,

If you throw out the first two shots in the string above because the barrel was clean and cold, you get an average velocity of 2090 fps for the last nine shots Compared to 2120 fps with a darn near identical boolit using W760. I chronographed a couple 10 shot strings using the same boolit (at about a grain less) using 36 grains of 760 and the WLRM primer last November and got:

string 1: 2075 fps/14.8 std dev.
string 2: 2071 fps/16.0 std dev.

So, it appears 760 is less than 3% faster than my lot of DP85. Granted I was using a slightly softer boolit (half a percent heavier) and a harder lube.

What is the lot number on your DP85? Perhaps my lot is slightly faster burning than what you've experienced.

When I get back from PA, I'm going to try a different lube and a couple different primers.

MJ

P.S. My early 336A's has a 24" barrel. The target on the right is the one shot with DP85 and assuming it's not a fluke, ranks right up there with the other two which were shot using my "go-to" load of 33 grains of Special Ball. Again, these three targets were shot at 100 yards with iron sights.

[David R]

Whats the problem?

Nice group.

David

[felix]

MJ, I agree with David. No need to split hairs here. You've done good! ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Problem (more like issue than problem) is a single five shot group does not prove a load and this one produced bad stats for an 11 shot string. Remember, the first six rounds in the string were used to find where the rifle's shooting at 100 yards (don't have a 200M range handy). I'm trying to isolate the variables and I guess the only way to prove the load is to keep shooting it with:

1) Different primers
2) Different lube
3) Seasoned barrel

Oh yeah, then I could also spend time adjusting my alloy... very time consuming.

I wouldn't care one way or the other but I'm running out of Spl Ball (my Ram powder) and need a substitute (quickly). Being a lube expert, I'm surprised Felix hasn't agreed it could be a barrel conditioning thing but I may be barking up the wrong tree there. I could just buy a jug of H414 but I've got to start using up some of the 60 plus pounds of surplus powder I already have.

Thanks for the help...
MJ

P.S. I need to mention that the guy around here who's winning all the silhouette matches is shootin' Hornadies and I need to beat the varmint! :mrgreen:

[felix]

Barrel conditioning always plays a part, and that is why you should know the round and barrel for all usuable conditions meant for the gun's objective. Folks who contemplate random ranges of opportunity (like you as a hunter, and like me as a trash shooter) must primarily worry about hitting the target as opposed to making "BR" groups. It seems to me you are taking the correct path. Powder costs are minimal compared to the cost of the hunt in your particular situation. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Felix... that's Ram as in silhouette match. I've never taken a head of game larger than a jack rabbit with a cast boolit. If I were a hunter a sure wouldn't care about relatively large extreme spreads (over 40 to 50 fps for 10 rounds). I'm trying to win 80 round matches where the ambient difference between shooting the first bank of Rams and the last may be 10 to 20F. If I didn't have all this surplus powder sitting around I would just buy a jug of H414 and be done with it. Unfortunately my time, space and money are severely limited.

MJ