Casting Help

[tdale4]

So I heard about this site on another forum that I frequent and it peaked my curiosity.

I have a suppressed .300 Whisper AR-15 that is dedicated to Subsonic (1010 fps) use and so far I have exclusively used 240gr SMK's, but they are rather expensive at $30 for 50 bullets

I had always been told that you could not shoot cast boolits thru an AR-15 because it would lead up the gas port....but after reading a bunch on this site that appears to be a myth

I like the look and weight of the 247gr .300 whisper group buy boolit mold http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1113263#post1113263...

I had a few question that I'm hoping you guys can help with before I start ordering in my casting stuff.

Why .311 boolit for a .308 gun? I know the Ak uses a .311, but the Whisper is a .308.....and why a flat point instead of a spire point? I'm assuming its so you can make a hollow point if you desire. which leads into my next question.

What would be the purpose of the hollow point on the Whisper round? it was my understanding that it was designed to do its damage by tumbling.....would a hollow point adversely effect its tumbling ability?

What is a double ended pin?

I read that powder selection was important when it comes to shooting cast boolits, something about the wrong powder will cause leading???? I use 1680 for my .300 whisper reloads.....will that also work with a cast boolit?

Lastly, what equipment would you recommend for a beginner.....I picked up about 25lbs of wheel weights today, should be enough to get me started And I am going to to get one of the group buy 247gr molds, what else will I need?

Thanks,
Tim

[Fire_stick]

Welcome aboard.

I am relatively new at this casting addiction my self. I did not realize what I was getting in to when I started casting. One piece of advice I can give is that you need to know your gun. Every one gun is different. The better you know your guns dimensions the more you will understand (why .311 for .308, etc...), and the better you will be able to cast for it and the better your results will be. There will be ups and downs, but the guys here are great and willing to help.

I just hit you with the 30K foot level view, but there will be others along shortly that can answer your questions.

[selmerfan]

The reason for the .311 vs. .308 is that you're seeking to make a boolit (technical term for projectiles cast from lead) that is .001 - .0015" LARGER than your actual bore diameter in the grooves of the barrel for a good bore fit that results in less or zero leading. The SINGLE most important aspect of eliminating leading in your bore is boolit fit. It's not hardness or a gas-check, it's how well your boolit fits your bore. There are a variety of ways to learn the diameter of your bore, the most common probably being to drive a slug of soft lead that is slightly larger that the bore diameter through the bore and measuring it out the other end. I find that bullet sinkers for bass fishing work pretty well for this purpose. My .30-06 and .308 barrels both measure .309", so I size my boolits to .310", but .311" wouldn't hurt any either. Do some searching, do LOTS of reading on this forum, and feel free to ask questions. There are lots of folks FAR more knowledgeable about this than I am, I've only been casting for a few years. TIP OF THE DAY - WHEREVER YOU FOUND THE 25 LBS OF WHEELWEIGHTS GO STRAIGHT BACK AND BUY EVERY ONE THEY HAVE. Wheelweights (WW) are on their way out in favor of more environmentally friendly (supposedly) materials. Beg and scrounge every piece of lead you can find. Melt the lead down in bulk in a pot separate from that which you intend to cast in, commonly known as "smelting", and cast them into ingots. Keep the temp of your melt less that 700 degrees F, this will melt anything lead based and leave all other metal contaminants, chiefly zinc, floating on top. Zinc melts at 787 degrees F and is a PITA if you get it in your alloy and makes casting difficult. Do a search on "zinc wheelweights" and "zinc contamination" to learn more. Safety first, wear protective gear and don't be stupid. Never, ever, ever, never put something with moisture on it into molten lead, you will get a visit from the "tinsel fairy" as the water instantly converts to vapor and has to escape, resulting in an explosion of molten lead, not fun. If you cast and haven't met the tinsel fairy, some day you will, but avoid it at all costs. I can't think of much else off the top of my head, read the threads here, voice your questions, be a congenial and contributing and inquisitive member and you'll be addicted to this along with the rest of us in no time at all.

[selmerfan]

Double-ended pin - one end of the pin creates a hollow point, the other creates a flat point. I'd guess 1680 will work, I used it in my .357 Max with cast loads, but I don't have any .300 Whisper experience. I personally would rather see an HP expand rather than a boolit tumble, I saw a discussion about this very thing in the group buy thread that you mentioned, read and join the conversation.

[onondaga]

Successfully accurate cast bullet shooters slug their bore and measure the slug to get an accurate groove to groove bore diameter for each firearm. Then, bullets generally need to be about .002" bigger than that measurement to prevent gas blow by or jetting that destroys accuracy.Most cast bullet shooters get a bullet mold that either drops the bullets at that diameter or one that is large enough to be sized down to the diameter they desire.

I have a rifle that slugged at .308"and got a mold that casts at .311" and I gas check and size them to .310" this is typical and considered necessary for bullet fit to prevent leading and allow good accuracy.

Whisper rounds with cast bullets are subsonic, low velocity rounds and can therefore take advantage of the softest lead alloys , even pure lead. The hollow point will function with pure lead at those velocities and increase tissue damage and shock.

A custom double ended pin for a bullet mold gives the choice of using the pin one way or the other for flat point or hollow point bullet casting with the same mold by reversing the pin.

Powder selection with cast bullets is important for a number of reasons, for a whisper round in the .300, a powder that is not position sensitive for ignition in a low volume for the case is important for reliable ignition. Some pistol powders do this well and so does IMR Trailboss. To try and use just any powder in severely reduced loadings like whisper loads could end up in misfires, squib and detonations. Even the little whisper cartridge will dangerously malfunction with the wrong powder. Use only documented, trusted load sources.

Wheelweight alloy may be too hard for a hollow point bullet to functionally expand the hollow point on tissue at subsonic velocity. A flat nose at that speed will do much more damage than a spire that will mainly pierce and not punch.

The 247 gr bullet in the diagram shows a base designed for gas checks. Gas checks are not necessary at subsonic velocity/ pressure. You need additional stuff to gas check and size and lube plus a supply of gas checks . I use the Lee Lube and size kits. They size bullets, install gas checks and include lubricant that goes on with a simple method. You do have to get them in the right size. You will likely a .309" or a .310" or .311" and may need one modified for exact size if you want real accuracy.

Do start by slugging your bore and get a definitive measurement with a good micrometer, not a dial gauge. You need the right size bullets and sizer. If you are unfamiliar with "slugging a barrel", search Youtube or there is a post in the stickies with a link.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Iraqveteran8888#play/uploads/13/ErFaJlUVs1Y

[excess650]

If you've never cast I would suggest that you NOT get the HP option on the mold. The HP option on that mold is only for ONE cavity, and I'm not sure the HP is necessary for that boolit. Likewise, the gas check version will make it easier for you to get as much accuracy as possible with a wider range of hardnesses of alloys. Gas checks for 30cal are now running $25+/1000, but a small price to pay compared to those 240gr jacketed projectiles.

In that it runs at low velocity, I'll bet you can get by with liquid alox and a Lee push through sizer (mounts in a reloading press that uses shell holders). Vendor sponso Lars sells "liquid xlox" for $12 or less per quart + shipping, so considerably less $ than buying small Lee bottles.

Larger than groove diameter sizing is recommended for a good seal. I usually see how large diameter I can load without resistance at the neck and work from there. My 30cals are getting a steady diet of .311".

Check with the 300 Whisper/Blackout guys for powder choices, but 1680 may well be among the recommended. You'll get slightly higher velocity and lower pressures over the same powder charge.

[MtGun44]

HP is not necessarily for one cavity. For example:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=1128

This is a Lyman 358429 ordinary non-HP mold converted by Erik at
Hollowpoint Services to a double HP in the Cramer design. You can use
flat topped pins and get solid flat points like normal or use the deep HP or the
cup point pin (one each shown) to get what you like.

The original Lyman style HP was only available in single cavities, but
technology has moved well past that. Even Erik has moved on and now
offers a monoblock system. Look at his web site, pix are wonderful.
I recommend his work if you what to have a mold modified or repaired.

Bill

[Bret4207]

The guys have started covering your query. I'd add the VERY STRONG suggestion you use GC's on GC design moulds, at least at first. It just makes life soooo much easier.

A HP in a cast boolit, even at "subsonic, not gonna expand anyway" speeds often produces a more accurate boolit by moving the center of gravity rearward on the boolit. BUT- do as suggested and start with a solid nose mould. Spire points tend to be far less forgiving of alignment issues and poor dynamic fit/imbalance than FP designs. They can work, but again, a FP is sooo much easier to start with. A hard to balance spire point mould often turns into a tack driver when hollow pointed, IME anyway.

I strongly suggest you start simple and see if you even like casting and using lead alloy boolits. You already have the advantage of not being speed crazy, it may well be a walk in the park for you.

[tdale4]

WOW!

Thank you for all the replies, so I looks like I need to Slug and Mic my barrel, I guess I figured that a .308 barrel would be .308...but it makes sense that it could be off by .001".

After a little reading most people seem to say a Boolit with "good lube" shot at subsonic velocities does not benefit from a Gas Check......So I guess I should order the PB version of the .247 gr Whisper Boolit mold????

But this brings up yet another question....what is "Good Lube" is Lee Alox liquid lube http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=466811 a "Good Lube"?

What equipment would you guys recommend?

I was looking at:
the Lyman starters kit http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=573247
The 247gr Whisper Boolit mold (4 cavity PB) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1113263#post1113263
and a Lyman boolit sizer .002" over the measurement I get when I slug my barrel like this one http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=780042

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Try to read all you can here. There are so many areas in this forum. They all have great information for us. Take a deep breath and get ready for a great ride. Do try to get all the lead you can, right away. I would make that a #1 priority. Without lead........... not good. Oh ya, Welcome and have fun. The information you just got is great and would take a very long time to learn by yourself. I seriously doubt I would be casting if it wasn't for this site.

[onondaga]

The Lyman starter kit is a good setup if you desire to start with pressure lubing and ladle casting. I ladle cast from 1957 to 1995 and switched cold turkey then. I prefer bottom pour casting and tumble lubing for all my cast bullets. Get a lot of info for yourself. Tumble lube is so easy and the push through sizing dies from Lee don't use nose punches as any style bullet is pushed up through the die by the bottom with a part that fits the shell holder of your reloading press and the sizing/gascheck crimp die fits your press too.

It is debated ad nausium between tumble lubers and pressure lubers, which is best. I like to keep it simple and tumble lube has never given me any problem leaking, getting in the wrong place, no adjustments for temperature and no variety of lubricants for different velocities. Just use Lee Liquid Alox or mix up your own 45:45:10 that I like the best due to its non tackiness and drying in minutes.

Gas checks help one very important thing even at subsonic velocity. They protect the base of a bullet and cover up any casting error, flaw, scratch or dent from handling on the bullet base. That bottom edge being perfect is essential for accuracy. even a small fingernail nick on an unprotected plain base bullet is cause for culling it. Nicked base bullets are "fliers" because of the nick and how muzzle blast will use the nick to steer the bullet at the precise moment you don't want that to happen -- as soon as it starts in the air. The nick also de-stabilizes the bullet in flight and can be severe enough to initiate tumble in flight. A gas check will prevent all that and keep bullet bases uniform.

Gary

[Bret4207]

WOW!

Thank you for all the replies, so I looks like I need to Slug and Mic my barrel, I guess I figured that a .308 barrel would be .308...but it makes sense that it could be off by .001". Plus, your boolit needs to be a little larger than your groove diameter, throat size is best.

After a little reading most people seem to say a Boolit with "good lube" shot at subsonic velocities does not benefit from a Gas Check......So I guess I should order the PB version of the .247 gr Whisper Boolit mold???? I would get the GC version simply because there's a better chance it will work easily. Even at low speeds you are using a fairly high pressure round. Pressure, not just speed, is the culprit in gas cutting, erosion. Start with a GC design.

But this brings up yet another question....what is "Good Lube" is Lee Alox liquid lube http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=466811 a "Good Lube"?

What equipment would you guys recommend?

I was looking at:
the Lyman starters kit http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=573247
The 247gr Whisper Boolit mold (4 cavity PB) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1113263#post1113263
and a Lyman boolit sizer .002" over the measurement I get when I slug my barrel like this one http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=780042

As far as the rest goes, I'd recommend a Lee sizer kit in .310 probably and beyond that you'll need a heat source, mould and ladle. The ancillary equipment you can scrounge at Walmart, the hardware store, your junk box in the attic, yard sales, Goodwill, etc. The Mule Snot Lee includes with their sizer kit might work very nicely for you, give it a try before jumping to other lubes and methods.

[tdale4]

The Lyman starter kit is a good setup if you desire to start with pressure lubing and ladle casting. I ladle cast from 1957 to 1995 and switched cold turkey then. I prefer bottom pour casting and tumble lubing for all my cast bullets. Get a lot of info for yourself. Tumble lube is so easy and the push through sizing dies from Lee don't use nose punches as any style bullet is pushed up through the die by the bottom with a part that fits the shell holder of your reloading press and the sizing/gascheck crimp die fits your press too.

It is debated ad nausium between tumble lubers and pressure lubers, which is best. I like to keep it simple and tumble lube has never given me any problem leaking, getting in the wrong place, no adjustments for temperature and no variety of lubricants for different velocities. Just use Lee Liquid Alox or mix up your own 45:45:10 that I like the best due to its non tackiness and drying in minutes.

Gas checks help one very important thing even at subsonic velocity. They protect the base of a bullet and cover up any casting error, flaw, scratch or dent from handling on the bullet base. That bottom edge being perfect is essential for accuracy. even a small fingernail nick on an unprotected plain base bullet is cause for culling it. Nicked base bullets are "fliers" because of the nick and how muzzle blast will use the nick to steer the bullet at the precise moment you don't want that to happen -- as soon as it starts in the air. The nick also de-stabilizes the bullet in flight and can be severe enough to initiate tumble in flight. A gas check will prevent all that and keep bullet bases uniform.

Gary


Okay, Gas Checks it will be....

I guess if I go with a bottom pour and liquid tumble lube then it doesn't make sense to get the Lyman kit.

[mpmarty]

With recent reliability/quality problems I'd steer clear of Lyman products, Period.