Difference in lube grooves.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I only have a few moulds. I have two Mihec molds and two Lee molds. The Mihec molds have deep and wide lube grooves and the LEE have narrow and shallow ones. The Lee seem almost too shallow compared to the Mihec. Is there any reason for the difference in depth and width? I know that Mihec's would hold more lube...... so it could be pushed faster or is it just a preference? They both seem to work quite well.

[selmerfan]

The Lee molds are "tumble lube" molds with "microband" lube grooves. They are designed for tumble lubing with Lee Liquid Alox or 45/45/10 (a concoction of 45% LLA, 45% Johnson Paste Wax, and 10% mineral spirits). The Mihec's are standard lube grooves for use with a lubrisizer, but can also be used just fine as tumble lube boolits as well.

[stubshaft]

There are almost as many different types of lube grooves as there are boolit moulds, and theories that go with them. Round vs square, wide vs narrow and so on.

MY preference is for medium to large grooves that hold alot of lube. MY theory is that it is better to have too much lube and waste the excess, then to have too little and wish for more.

[Recluse]

The Lee molds are "tumble lube" molds with "microband" lube grooves.

Not all of them.

I've noticed that a number of Lee molds, that while they have traditional lube grooves, they are quite narrow and shallow compared with Mihecs or even RCBS or Lyman molds.

I have several Lee molds with traditional lube grooves that are shallow and narrow. The 105SWC and the 102RN both have quite shallow lube grooves. I normally tumble-lube them with 45/45/10 and have no problems.

Also have a Lee .429 214SWC that has two shallow (traditional) lube grooves. This is my primary .44 Special boolit. I size and lube it through the lubesizer using the 45/45/10 and beeswax/stearate in stick form and have zero problems. Good accuracy, little to no smoke, no leading. Have pushed it up to .44 Magnum velocities with same results.

As long as your boolits are sized properly for your bore and your lube is of a good quality, I honestly don't think the shallow/narrow lube grooves are going to cause you any grief. They haven't me as of now.

:coffee:

[btroj]

I prefer a deeper lube groove but only because they seem to hold the lube better in handling.
Ultimately what counts is whether or not they shoot. I have had good results with many Lee moulds even if they have grooves shallower than I might like.
Face it, if the gun is happy with a mould maybe we should be too!

[462]

Yes, Lee's conventional moulds -- not tumble lube -- do have narrow, shallow grooves. I've not experienced a lube related problem with them, except for the one time I ran some 358-158 RFs up to 1400+ fps, but a different lube should correct it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It's funny this came up.
Yesterday, I did some casting.
one was the Midsouth custom Lee 6.5 Cruise missile.
I never really noticed til I was inspecting the boolits after they were cast.
I'm not sure who designed this mold, But BOY, them are some shallow lube grooves.
Jon

[geargnasher]

I like lots and lots of good, reasonably soft lube on my boolits, I like to see lube stars on my rifles and pistols, and oily coating on my revolvers after shooting. It's one thing I'm superstitious about, regardless of how many times my rifles have forced me to cut way back on lube, use boolits with smaller grooves, or lube only one or two. With pistols, sometimes they cooperate with me and sometimes the tell me they don't like those big, honking lube grooves either.

Lube groove design is about as esoteric as any other design aspect of boolits. The things that didn't work very well or were improved (the original Himmelwright wadcutter design is a perfect example) have fallen out of manufacture and you don't see much of them anymore, what's left out there designwise works for the most part, or can be made to.

Gear

[geargnasher]

It's funny this came up.
Yesterday, I did some casting.
one was the Midsouth custom Lee 6.5 Cruise missile.
I never really noticed til I was inspecting the boolits after they were cast.
I'm not sure who designed this mold, But BOY, them are some shallow lube grooves.
Jon

They match the rifling depth of the Swedes quite nicely, too. Note also how WIDE the grooves are.

Gear

[Calamity Jake]

We have a expert lube groove supplier amongest us, order a good supply, there cheep, and change them to what you want!!! :bigsmyl2: :kidding:

[MtGun44]

The Miha designs are probably copies of Keiths, or designed by a Keith follower. Keith
believed in one large, deep and flat bottomed lube groove. Works in his designs very
well, IME. I have had more spotty results with Lee 'normal' lube groove designs which
have the tiny (not TL) little grooves. Some work for me, many do not. I tend to use the
Lee designs with more lube capacity since that seems to work best for me.

Bill

[Bret4207]

A decade or so ago we had a long thread on the how's and why's of lube grooves and their function. In the end there were a couple of good theories, but few facts. I'm afraid much of lube groove design in the "beauty in the eye of the beholder" as anything else.

[btroj]

I think Bret os probably right. I think. Most bullet designs are based on what someone thinks looks "right" rather than on hard science. Unlike the major jacketed bullet manufacturers the mould makers do not have a group of engineers sitting at computers to model the ideal shape, size, weight, etc.
Who knows, Lee may use shallower grooves because they are easier to machine? Or may have been when they first started to make moulds and now it is the way they ave always done it so they continue.
All I care is that the bullets shoot well.

[NHlever]

Now how can you work up a good rip snorting Grizzly load using a boolit with wimpy grease grooves? I like the looks of wider, deeper grease grooves on cast bullets, but have to admit that some of the Lee designs shoot even better. The Lee 358-158-RF always outshoots the RCBS 38-150 SWC in my guns, as much as I have tried to will it the other way using the Force. Most designs that don't work as well have other problems besides the grease groove.

[btroj]

I think Bret os probably right. I think. Most bullet designs are based on what someone thinks looks "right" rather than on hard science. Unlike the major jacketed bullet manufacturers the mould makers do not have a group of engineers sitting at computers to model the ideal shape, size, weight, etc.
Who knows, Lee may use shallower grooves because they are easier to machine? Or may have been when they first started to make moulds and now it is the way they ave always done it so they continue.
All I care is that the bullets shoot well.

[357shooter]

For effectiveness over a wide range of velocity, different alloys and also various bullet diameters the big deep Keith-style groove works most consistently. That's with homemade plain-jane lube.

The skinny lube grooves are more picky about all these things. They can work, just within a narrower range of velocity, alloy, and diameter. At least with simple homemade lube like Darr lube. Using a better high tech lube might solve that problem. But I like mine homemade.

[BABore]

Yep, boolit designers just go with what looks good, and I'm sure some really do.

Lube grooves have a capacity to them. Pistol boolits intended for a lower velocity, with their inherently short barrels, don't need much lube. Increase the velocity and you have a choice, more lube capacity or a slicker lube. Boolits intended for a wide range of velocity need grooves that hold enough lube for the max speed and conditions. The same with rifle boolits. On either pistol or rifle boolits, bearing length and surface also need to be considered when looking at capacity. The length and depth of the lube groove(s) have to be considered as it relates to bearing length and case neck length unless you want the boolit base hanging inside the case. The lube groove size and position also has to be considered in regards to the base and top band size. Do you sacrifice the size of the bands on either extreme when stripping may be an issue? Finally, the position and depth of lube grooves can be tweaked for proper boolit balance and center of gravity position in relation to the boolits OAL and bearing length.

45 2.1 has taught me alot of what works, what doesn't, and how to do much of this. I'm still learning more as I go.

But no, really, lube grooves are just swaged in there so the boolit looks perty.

[Pat I.]

If you're using an inferior lube or trying to keep fouling soft a big honkin load of lube on a bullet might be best. Use a decent lube with smokeless powder and you can get along with just a bit. A fine thread screw is stronger than a coarse thread screw because the minor diameter is larger. Why would you want to weaken a bullet by cutting a deep wide groove?

[MtGun44]

Maybe you intend the lube groove portion to compress slightly to force the lube out
under pressure? ;-)

Bill

[theperfessor]

Remember that a lot of bullets were designed originally for use with black powder (lots of fouling) or before a time when a lot of really good lubes were developed (such as the Keith-style pistol bullets). Better lubes and cleaner burning powders make smaller lube grooves practical.

I still like a greasy star at the muzzle of my handguns!

[Pat I.]

Maybe you intend the lube groove portion to compress slightly to force the lube out
under pressure? ;-)

Bill

Possible but if so I'd have to doubt anyone that said it was happening the same exact way every time.

[357shooter]

Possible but if so I'd have to doubt anyone that said it was happening the same exact way every time.If it has no bad affect, say shooting 357 revolvers at the range, it wouldn't matter.

I wouldn't say the it was happening the same way every time, in rifles it probably matters. But with my revolvers, it doesn't. Guess it depends on the context and what someone is shooting.

[44man]

Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason for how a boolit shoots. I like the TL boolits with regular lube in the grooves because they shoot very well. If I was to remove and weigh the lube it might be as much as in a Keith groove. I suspect the nose shape is better for a revolver.
I then made one with the nose shape of the Lee but with a Keith GG and it shot good from the Marlin I had but my revolver does not like them.
I then made a .475 boolit with a large front drive band and my gun hates them. I went the other way and made one with a narrow base band and it consistently does tiny 100 yard groups so I made one like it for the .500 JRH and put all shots in one hole at 50 yards. Both of these are nose heavy if you discuss balance and we can discuss that for years with no consensus either way.
Hollow points are accurate but I can't prove they are more accurate then a FN either.
I have made a few of the most accurate revolver boolits ever but don't ask me to tell you anything about weight distribution or GG placement, it was 100% luck! :mrgreen: Anytime I can put 5 shots in 5/16" at 50 yards and less then 1" at 100 with a revolver and anyone tries to explain it with fancy drawings with all the angles and dimensions along with a few gr more weight here or there, I just get confused.
Same as lube, the wrong lube will lead the bore and ruin accuracy real fast and it is not the amount in the boolit. My 265 gr RD .44 boolit will do 3/4" all day at 50 yards and 1-1/4" at 100 with Felix lube. Don't ever ask me to use LLA on it, tried it and my slingshot does better.
Then my 330 gr .44 hunting boolit has a very long nose and will do 1/2" at 50 yards and has shot a 1-5/16" group at 200 yards. It is backwards of what anyone would design because of so much forward weight. I tried to match the forcing cone angle and wound up with a long boolit nose. I shoot many, many deer with it and so do my friends.
Anyone can have one of my boolits to have a mold made but never ask me to explain a single one of them. You get no drawings because I never made any.
Babore makes wonderful boolits and molds but it is sad to say some need a different alloy if PB. 50-50 WW's and pure just does not work with every design but the boolits are so good I can turn any of them into one hole shooters at 50 yards. I so wish I could change my friends ideas on lead alloys as his boolits change from PB to GC.
Only ONE boolit gives me problems and that is the semi wad cutter.

[357shooter]

44man: those group sizes are awesome. I'm happy with less than 1 inch at 25 yards (that's the max available to me). Still haven't gotten to less than 1/2 inch, but added a scope!

[44man]

44man: those group sizes are awesome. I'm happy with less than 1 inch at 25 yards (that's the max available to me). Still haven't gotten to less than 1/2 inch, but added a scope!
It can be done and my whole life has been spent with revolvers. I have learned a lot but it will never end. Sometimes I feel stupid and have to stop and think more. Sitting at the bench will give better results then wasting lead. My revolvers are for hunting so I never shoot less then 50 yards unless it is a small carry gun.
One time a guy told me I was full of it and a liar so I took 5 rounds and my 45 Vaquero down and shot Creedmore at 50 yards from the side of my leg. Did the group surprise me---sorta because it depends on my vision, not the gun or load. I do not think he ever believed me but who cares? Can I do it all the time? Heck no, I am only a shaky old man! Can my gun do it? Yes and that is what I care about and what I want all of you to do.
This is not a contest or an ego trip because some of my friends also do it and I sure wish all of you would shoot as good.
Just take suggestions and try them. What do you have to lose? How I hate any work to go to waste! :groner:

[357shooter]

It can be done and my whole life has been spent with revolvers. I have learned a lot but it will never end. Sometimes I feel stupid and have to stop and think more. Sitting at the bench will give better results then wasting lead. My revolvers are for hunting so I never shoot less then 50 yards unless it is a small carry gun.
One time a guy told me I was full of it and a liar so I took 5 rounds and my 45 Vaquero down and shot Creedmore at 50 yards from the side of my leg. Did the group surprise me---sorta because it depends on my vision, not the gun or load. I do not think he ever believed me but who cares? Can I do it all the time? Heck no, I am only a shaky old man! Can my gun do it? Yes and that is what I care about and what I want all of you to do.
This is not a contest or an ego trip because some of my friends also do it and I sure wish all of you would shoot as good.
Just take suggestions and try them. What do you have to lose? How I hate any work to go to waste! :groner:

Agree and appreciate everything you said. It's not a competition, but I'm always striving for a tighter group. The smaller they get, the tougher and more rewarding every additional improvement is.

Thinking of an 8 inch 357 w/scope. My eyes don't work all that well, the Red Dot is awesome. But the 1 inch it covers eventually becomes a limitation.