45 LONG Colt problem suggestions needed

[TCLouis]

To repay a co-worker for a favor he did for me I plan to load up some 45 Colts for him.

Currently he shoots some factory 900 fps 250 grain RNFP round, they are accurate, he does not get any leading, and he is happy. I have the Lee 255 SWC mold and plan to load these for him at approximately 900 FPS (10.4 AA#5).

My problem is

The cylinder throats are 0.457" and the barrel is 0.451".

I have a 0.451 die for the Lyman 450 and may just go with that. Or I have an order going in to Mid South and could get a 0.454" die and seal a little more of the gap. No guarantee that they would chamber or be any more accurate. I am going to be undersized compared to the cylinder throat either way. 0.454 will just barely be touched up in my castings. Not sure his cylinder will take a boolit that size loaded in all 45 Colt brass.

The other issue is that I have to order reloadin dies for the calibr and so it would work best if I could order everythin in one order.

I realize it is hard to get an opinion here, but suggestions would be appreciated.

[btroj]

What size are the bullets dropping? If you can size to .454 I would. The barrel will size them down fine but the loose fit in the throats can lead to leading.
In the end it will be the gun that decides. Try both sizes and see if one is more accurate or gives less leading. The gun should always trump what is supposed to work.

[geargnasher]

Lee made that mould in .454" and .452", both of mine cast right at or a smidge over with WW metal. If the cylinder throats are .457 there's nothing really that you can do about it. Anything from .455" to .452" should work, but not .451".

You didn't say how you were using to size/lube, but you might just pan lube them and load them unsized.

Gear

[SAA]

I size my bullets to .455" (.454" sizer, but punches them out at .455") using a 1:1 ratio of pure lead to WW. It wasn't until I worked out this combination that I got acceptable (barely) accuracy and no leading. My cylinder throats are likewise .457".
900fps is a bit faster than what I load (7.8-8.0 gr. Unique, 255gr. bullets), so you may have to make your bullets a bit harder to prevent rifling leading at the higher velocity, but I wouldn't go too hard considering the amount of swaging you are expecting the forcing cone to do.

[45-70 Chevroner]

If the guy is not getting any leading with factory loads with his gun and the deminsions you give are correct, I would not worry to much about leading and accuracy because he has a very special gun. I can not believe his gun will shoot as well as he is claiming or his expectations are not very high. The throats in his gun are way over sized and I can't possiable see how he gets much accuracy. Most factory loads with lead boolits will be sized to fit most guns and that is usually .452". As for his gun not leading that is possiable because he may have a barrel that is acceptionaly smooth.
On a second note, I will not load for any one else but my family. I will let others shoot my ammo but only when I am shooting with them. I also give them instructions about what to do in case they have a problem with the ammo. I have had shells with no powder (and that is very rare) and if the boolit makes is past the cylinder gap you can have a very serious problem on your hands. If they don't know what has happened in that situation you will most likley be buying the guy a new gun and be paying for pain and suffering.
I'm not saying that it is impossiable to get accuracy with those diminsions but with most things I have read and have had experience with it most often does not happen.

[nanuk]

I"ve been out of the revolver game for years since I sold off my Python, and DW, both 357.

but I have to ask, do you not size for the throat, not the bore?

Just wondering.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Are the "Accurate" factory loads using a hollow base Boolit ?
I would think that is about the only base type under throat size boolit that would give any accuracy. I would cast with 40-1 and use a fast pistol powder under it for that 900 fps.
That revolver is a reloaders nightmare.

[SAA]

I haven't bought factory .45 Colt since the 1980s. Used to be that the bullets in factory loads were commonly .454". Is that not the case any more?

[felix]

Having the GUN size down a large diameter boolit from 457 to 451 or higher is a piece of cake. Consider the percentage of reduction as compared to those typically used for a 224 boolit, for example. ... felix

[prs]

To push a 255gr slug to 900+ fps with Unique is gonna punish the shooter unless that iron is way heavy. A big Ruger would take it, but you might harm an SAA, or loosen up the screws. Hopfully a 7 1/2" barrel or more. Any ways, if I was gonna load for such a gun, I would not size the boolits at all and go with a tumble lube mix that sets tough and dry. And I might even consider buying him a few boxes of his favorite factory ammo that works so well for him. So far, my only experience with off sized throats has been with undersized Rugers and that for sure did not shoot lead with any consistent grouping; lucky to keep them on a pie plate at 25'.

prs

[Wally]

I use the Lee 200 RF bullet sized to .452" with 7.0 grains of red Dot--very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot in my Ruger Blackhawk... I've used man different bullet molds of heavier weight--none work as well as the lee 200 RF.

[45-70 Chevroner]

SAA: I do believe that most 45 colt barrels today are right at .451 .452. You are right .454 was the norm for factory lead loads a number of years ago. Every thing I read is saying that .452 is more common now and has been for 15 18 years maybe longer.

prs: I shoot 10 grs of unique in my two rugers and yes that is a pretty stiff load but not punishing and by no means a max load. I don't go out and shoot 3 or 4 boxes of those loads though because they are not as much fun as my 7 or 8 gr. loads. You are right though I would not shoot it in a 1st or 2nd generation Colt.

[fredj338]

Nothing to be done w/ the 0.457" cyl throats, so 0.452" or larger if they will chamber. Accuracy may suffer but it's the best you can do.

[*Paladin*]

My Ruger Vaquero .45 Colt w/ Lee 228's sized to .452 shoots very well. I think I using 8.5(?)gr of Unique. No leading (the alloy is 50/50 WW to pure).

[Harter66]

I shoot mine as cast from the LEE 452-255 @.454 and 262+- 2 gr. 8.5 Unique for about 950 fps. It's a RBH w/7.5 bbl.

Mine shot factory's well enough ,but isn't as over sized as that 1. Mine had 4 different throat bores they're all 454 now. Mine also had an annoying quirk in that the255- 452 sized commercial cast would just knock the snot out of you over 800 fps,full on pin loosing recoil . I wrote it off as bullet tilting, its been non-issue now that the boolits fit . Soft and unsized is how id start.

[MtGun44]

Pull one bullet from the factory ammo. My bet is that it is a hollowbased design and very
soft. These are used in the RNFP old low pressure loads to have a chance at good performance
in guns just like your friend's.

Either use the WW or Rem lead HB reloading components, which will expand out like a minie
bullet to fit the .457 throat and then easily swage back down to the .451 groove diam, or
try to get a HB mold, which is pretty difficult,they apparently did exist, but I have not seen
one offered new, ever. Closest I know of (and not useful) is the Lee 405 HB rifle boolit mold.

If I were you, I'd get a sample of .455 or larger boolits in the 250 gr range by buying 10 each
of several designs on the "Buying and Selling" thread, then try to see FIRST - what is the
max diam that will chamber (may be brass brand dependent, too) and then try some of
the fattest that you can get to safely chamber and see what they do accuracywise with
something like 7.0 gr of W231 or 6.0 Titegroup. You want SOFT alloy, NOT hard.

Just for grins, drill a 3/16" hold in the base of 5 solid base design boolits and see if it
helps. You'd need to make a wooden jig, with a hole big enough to sit your boolit into
nose down, then line it up "exactly" (best you can) under a drill press and make the
"hollow base" drill hole about 1/4" deep or so. Could solve the problem. Again, soft
alloy.

These mis-dimensioned .45 Colts are a general PITA and the soft HB at 900 is the
factory solution, probably the best one out there. Just expensive.

Bill

[44man]

I"ve been out of the revolver game for years since I sold off my Python, and DW, both 357.

but I have to ask, do you not size for the throat, not the bore?

Just wondering.
Not really needed. As long as the boolit is a little over groove size and it is in line with the bore, it will shoot.
One can neck size brass and get good alignment.
True that the closer you get to throat size, the better but you can cheat. Just don't look for a softer boolit to expand to fit the throats.

[Bass Ackward]

See here is where leading is not a bad thing. And why I am not afraid of big throats.

I would size to .452 and then shoot a 8 - 10 BHN bullet. I know that you are going to lead the throats and probably the bore at first. But if you never clean the throats and brush the bore between cylinders, you will get custom fit, cylinder / chamber perfect alignment alla the leading.

Just patch the chambers and clean the bore and within a couple hundert rounds, he will have an ideal set-up before you know it.

This is actually the secret to shooting soft lead for the pressure as lead on lead lowers pressure compared to lead on steel.

Most people miss the promised land because they can't go without cleaning which always resets the clock.

[GBertolet]

You might try shooting unsized bullets,coated with multiple applications of tumble lube. This will build up the diameter of the bullet, and possibly seal well enough to get past the cylinder throats.

[Tim357]

If the guy is not getting any leading with factory loads with his gun and the deminsions you give are correct, I would not worry to much about leading and accuracy because he has a very special gun. I can not believe his gun will shoot as well as he is claiming or his expectations are not very high. The throats in his gun are way over sized and I can't possiable see how he gets much accuracy. Most factory loads with lead boolits will be sized to fit most guns and that is usually .452". As for his gun not leading that is possiable because he may have a barrel that is acceptionaly smooth.
On a second note, I will not load for any one else but my family. I will let others shoot my ammo but only when I am shooting with them. I also give them instructions about what to do in case they have a problem with the ammo. I have had shells with no powder (and that is very rare) and if the boolit makes is past the cylinder gap you can have a very serious problem on your hands. If they don't know what has happened in that situation you will most likley be buying the guy a new gun and be paying for pain and suffering.
I'm not saying that it is impossiable to get accuracy with those diminsions but with most things I have read and have had experience with it most often does not happen.
RE: factory loads, if he is shooting Remington or Winchester loads. the bullets have hollow bases, and will slug up to seal the throats. It is entirely possible he is getting the results he is claiming. Also, they are offered for sale at .455" diameter from Remington.
Tim sends

EDIT: Just reread MTgun44's post...

[TCLouis]

I misused a term so it was miscontrued.

Factory being something GA Arms or some such, not one of the biggie companies.

I have seen him shoot the load and it stacks them. That is why I was so surprised when I started looking at the cylinder with pin gauges.

I loaded a dummy round with "as cast" and .451 for him to test in his cylinder. Since I do not pan lube it would be better for me if I could run them through the sizing die and lube there.

He is going to bring me a round of the good shooting ammo tomorrow and I will find out actual company loading the ammo as well as test boolit hardness and diameter.

[NHlever]

Mike Venterino did an article on loading the .45 Colt not too long ago in Handloader magazine. His test guns were a USFA with .452 throats, and a Colt with .456 throats. He was surprised when he found that the Colt shot about the same with boolits sized both .452, and .454. Another surprise was that the USFA shot several groups with boolits sized .454 that were tighter than it shot with boolits sized .452. He isn't sure, but attributes this to the 1-20 alloy he used, and I think he might be right. Sometimes we just need to try things, and to test more before we draw our own conclusions. One of the things about casting, and shooting cast bullets that I enjoy is that I'm always learning new things even after 50 years.

[ktw]

I have a Lyman 454190 that drops at .459 and 259 grains in WW alloy and a Lyman 457191 that drops .4595 and 303 gr in WW alloy.

I'd be willing to send you some of either if you want to try them. These are both SC molds and quantity would be dependent on what I already have on hand cast up (more 454190 than 457191).

-ktw

[45-70 Chevroner]

Thanks Tim357: I have never pulled down any factory loads so that is good to know. I just could not see how he was getting such accuracy with that set up.