PDA

View Full Version : Zoli Mississippi rifle questions



T-Bird
02-13-2011, 05:29 PM
I inherited a .58 cal. Zoli Mississippi rifle from a friend a while back, took it out yesterday to the range. This is my first rifled musket, but I'm not new to muzzleloading. The gun shot well but low (4in) at 50yds with 80 gr Pyrodex RS and .570prb. I understand these were designed for minnies. I have a couple questions.(1) Will a minnie change the POI higher? (2) I also understand a minnie should be undersized and the skirt expands to fit the bore. This gun's bore has 3 grooves making it hard to check dia. with calipers. I don't have any larger lead bullets to slug it with so will the .575 minnie be close enough? (the bore groove to land seems to be in the neighborhood of .575with calipers) I am considering the Lee traditional style 500gr minnie. Any help will be appreciated. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

missionary5155
02-13-2011, 06:05 PM
Greetings
I shoot a Zoli Zuoave in caliber.58 which possibly is the same barrel you have.
I found Round ball to be far more accurate than a Mini. My barrel is about 1-65 twist shallow groove. I use a good snug patch.
I also removed the stock rear sight As mine shot about a foot to the right at 50 yards. Made my own peep sight that fits the origonal sight groove. I made it a tight fit for windage. I had already figured what was the proper height for 50 yards (I hunt river bottoms) so knew how high to drill the peep hole. I am not a re-enactor so am not concerned about being authentic. I have harvested well over a dozen deer with one shot. Got two with one shot that were standing side by side at about 35 yards. Complete penetration on both and the near side deer took it through the lower spine. 85 grains 2F... .570 ball of 40-1. I also shoot WW for practice and it works just fine.

NickSS
02-13-2011, 06:24 PM
I have a 54 cal MIssassippi rifle and a zoli Zouave rifle in 58 cal. both shoot well but the sights work with 60 gr of FFG your higher load most likely is why it shot to a different point of aim. the 475 mini will work and be easier to load. As for hunting it has enough accuracy to kill deer out to 100 yards easily. I have killed three white tails with a 58 ML tow with a minii ball and one with round ball. They all dies fast and the bullets all went clean through and came out the other side and I was only useing 60 gr of FFG.

Hanshi
02-13-2011, 07:02 PM
My Mississippi rifle is .54 and extraordinarily accurate with .530 ball. So accurate, in fact, I never even thought about a bullet. 60 grains Goex 3f is a fine target load. Though I've only killed one deer with this fine rifle, it's my favorite percussion and the best one I've ever owned. It also shot some 6 inches high at 50 yards and I have since filed the rear down quite a bit.

T-Bird
02-13-2011, 08:00 PM
Thanks for the info guys, I did shoot the prb with 60 gr Pyrodex 1st at 50 and it had the same POI. I guess if I can get it to shoot a minnie straight, I can figure out how to monkey with the sights to get it to hit where I want it to. Nick I assume you meant the .575 minnie?

2152hq
02-13-2011, 09:01 PM
I picked up a Zoli Zouave .58 early last year that looked as if it had never been fired. For $100 I figured I could fix up a couple of things on it. It was missing the nipple, the guy selling it for another person said it was pulled so the kids couldn't get hurt with it(?). The spare was gone too. I put an ampco bronze in it for #12 caps and they work great.

The front site was installed way over to the left of center at the factory. I decided to remove it and alter it at the same time to correct any elevation problem too.
They are silver soldered in place. Before I removed it, I milled the existing forged-in-place 'blade' out of the base. Easier to hang onto while still attached to the barrel.

Once off, I silver soldered a new blade in place into the groove left in the base. I left the new blade higher than I needed. Polished and shaped it up close to what was needed and then soft soldered the new assembly into the correct position on the bbl @ 12oclock.
I kept the issue rear sight but cut the blade height down a bit to get a better sight picture. Now a very shallow 'v' is easier to place the front blade into position each time.

Sighting it in was easy. I was pretty close in my guestimate in height. Windage was right on. I use a .570RB, 60gr FFG and thin flannel patch lubed with 50/50 crisco and borebutter.

At 25yrds it will stack them all on top of each other if I do my part. At 50yrds my 60+ y/o eyes can keep 5 shots inside 2" on occasion. All from a rest of course. No guarantees on my abilitys off hand.
A better trigger would help! Maybe another project for the $100 Musket.
I still have to get around to rust bluing the bbl to cover the work on the sights though..and get rid of that factory shiny blue anyway.

T-Bird
02-19-2011, 12:49 PM
I ordered a mold for the Lee "improved" minie in a .578 size because I measured the bore again and got around .584 from land to groove (3groove rifling). Shot a few downrange yesterday never had a gun shoot that bad! Three minies hit my target support about 3 feet from the paper in a 4 foot long "line". I don't know where the rest went. The powder charges were 40gr to 80gr. I'm shooting Pyrodex RS. The minie seems to be too small I know it is supposed to be smaller than bore. I even tried placing a patch over the powder to protect the base. I filled the base and, I didn't fill the base with lube. Nothing helped that I tried. Any suggestions? shoot straight T-Bird

oldhickory
02-19-2011, 04:04 PM
Try real powder. FFg-FFFg. Lube boolit with bees wax and Crisco, (a dab of plain Crisco in the hollow cavity helps if ramming becomes a problem after 3-5 shots). Charges between 40-55gr will usually get you at least decent groups, if not, you should check barrel bedding. Make sure the tang screw is good and snug, and chessnut size gob of Accra-Glass at the breech plug and about 2" forward under the barrel sometimes does wonders for these mass produced re-pops. A proper size boolit should slide down a clean bore with just a bit of finger pressure.

T-Bird
02-19-2011, 05:04 PM
The minie won't drop to the powder level, but it requires VERY little pushing. I do have a small amt of real black i will try it. Thanks Hickory T-Bird

oldhickory
02-19-2011, 05:34 PM
The old Zoli barrels will give at least reasonable good accuracy, sometimes they can be stubborn though. A boolit should be .001-.002" smaller than land dia. for best accuracy.

Like I said earlier, if the barrel isn't set in the stock right, it ain't gonna shoot. Most times it olny requires a dab of Accura Glass at the breech, sometimes they need the entire breech and barrel done. By the way you say it shoots, check the tang screw and barrel bedding.

405
02-19-2011, 10:14 PM
T-Bird,
If the larger diameter minie doesn't improve accuracy to maybe 3-4 inches @ 50 yds. or better you might try thinking outside the box. With the extreme group sizes you describe I don't believe a simple change to BP or different lube will correct all of it.

Make sure the bore is clean and free from leading. That includes the area down the bore in the area where the bullets sits when loaded. Swab between shots. If the larger minie and bore cleaning doesn't bring the group sizes down you might try paper patching. Since you will have two different sized minies you should be able to find some thin, strong paper to twice-wrap one of them so they can be loaded without pounding them down. Some resistance is OK.

These things cost very little so there's nothing to lose. Accurate minies out of slow twist muskets takes a little voodoo at times. The way I understand the ballistics is that a minie at low RPM is partially aerodynamically stabilized and partially gyroscopically stabilized. If nothing else that tells me they can be tricky. That bullet absolutely must: leave the muzzle in near pristine condition and be nearly perfectly aligned with the bore for each shot. The problem I have with relying on expansion of the skirt area to both seal the bore and align the bullet with grossly undersized minies is that it may well seal the bore but MAY NOT keep the front portion aligned with the bore. So as the minie leaves the muzzle, even if the skirt is ok, the front portion MAY BE out of alignment (after all it started undrsized). In BPCR circles it's called "nose slump". No idea if that is what you are dealing with but like I said, won't cost anything to think outside the box and try some simple things like more aggressive cleaning and paper patching.

I have a 58 rifled musket with a very slightly oversized bore but the bore is in exc. condition. It too has an odd groove number (7) so very difficult to get exact specs. I tried the often repeated, conventional means to accuracy- no go! I found that by cleaning more often and paper patching a common sized minie it would shoot accurately. Later I got the largest diameter minie mold from RCBS... the .584 NS and got accuracy without the paper patch. Good luck

oldhickory
02-20-2011, 11:39 AM
What sort of aloy are you using? These boolits need to be soft.

T-Bird
02-20-2011, 08:54 PM
I'm shooting plumbers lead. The guy that I inherited this gun from probably had it for 20yrs, never shot it .He also gave me a flintlock pistol he had and had only shot once or twice. He was not a shooter, he just liked to have the guns.The bore on the rifle was somewhat rusty from sitting in the closet for that long when I got it, but it ain't that bad and I cleaned it. I have shot it a few times with balls and it shoots them well, but low with the factory sights. I don't think leading is an issue is my point.I thought that the pyrodex may not be expanding the skirt enough to fit the bore. This gun shoots like you just put something in it with some powder and set it off, "grouping" doesn't exist right now. I will try the black powder, it may give the "bump" to expand the skirt-I don't know. T-Bird

Chris Smith
02-20-2011, 10:42 PM
I've had the same thing happen with my Zoauve .58. I have a lot of Pyrodex so I tried but the real black powder works so much better. And mine shoots round balls so good there is no comparison but my Lee mold was bought used and someone had really abused it. My minnies are probably three diameters and it's a miracle they even look like a bullet. But a 5 dollar mold will only give just so much results.

T-Bird
02-21-2011, 08:47 AM
Chris, so you got your Zoauve to shoot with black, when it wouldn't at ALL with Pyrodex? T-Bird

oldhickory
02-21-2011, 08:56 AM
Your lead sounds okay. Like I said before-use the Holy Black. Start with about 40gr, and work up in 5gr. increments. You should find happy-ness somewhere between 45-55gr. using FFFg. maybe a little heavier using FFg.

Chris Smith
02-21-2011, 08:56 AM
Well, it goes boom and a bullet flies out but it did better with black powder. If pyrodex was all I had I'd use it but I have plenty of both. Some of my pyrodex is either old, stored wrong or something else because I noticed big differences from shot to shot as to recoil, noise and sometimes not even hitting the target. I got 14 pounds of the stuff in a trade. I keep it in sealed ammo cans (in the original cannisters) but they guy I got it from might have kept in his chicken house for all I know.

T-Bird
02-23-2011, 12:50 PM
Went to the range yesterday with a larger piece of paper. Shot 40, 45, and 50 gr 3f. Nothing hit closer than a foot from point of aim, but the "group is about 21/2 feet in dia. at 50yds.Better? Anyway, I forgot to check the tang screw for tightness as suggested above till I got home. I was able to tighten it a little more that 1 full turn before it bottomed out. Could this be enough to cause the still BAD group? If not, I'm done. If I want to shoot this gun, I'll try to find an adjustable rear sight to fir the dovetail and shoot rb. Shoot straight, T-Bird

oldhickory
02-23-2011, 08:05 PM
Don't worry about POI right now as long as you can hit paper with it. Was getting the 1 full turn easy, or hard? Let's start with the rifle and check it for defects. Is the bore clean, free of defects, no burrs, leading, and rifling definate? Is the bedding proper? It won't hurt it a bit to mix some bedding compound, or epoxy, (a gob about the size of a chessnut-don't forget a release agent on the metal) and spread it behind and under the breech, forward about 2". Let cure 48hrs before shooting. While you're at it, check the barrel channel for high spots. If the rifle is right, it should give at least 3-4" groups with about any load at 50yds. benched. You're using musket caps for ignition, right? Those came with both musket and #11 size nipples.

I've never had any great groups with the LEE .58 hollow base molds, but they were at least 3" off the bench at 50yds. Make sure the mold is right and cast with soft lead only. Check boolit fit in the bore with a dry boolit, for best accuracy it should fit snug, but not tight. Boolit bases square? No voids, nicks, etc?

I had an original Tryon Mississippi with the Lehman .58 conversion and a slightly pitted bore that shot 2" from the bench at 50yds. with a Rapine 585460 sized to .582. Most originals I have or have owned with nice bores will shoot 2" or under off the bench at 100yds with about any proper fitting hollow base boolits and 45-55gr. of FFFg. On the other hand, my Parker-Hale musketoon is picky-Very picky as to what it likes. It requires a Rapine 580460 international boolit sized to .579 and 50gr. FFFG for deceint groups. Most everyone I've known to shoot a Zoli shot pretty well with them.

StrawHat
02-25-2011, 05:39 PM
The tang being loose could be part of the problem. The advice to bed the breech is good to follow.

I have completely bedded the breech and barrel, also relieved the bands and a few other tricks to get a musket to shoot small groups. The first thing I would do would be to bed the tang.

T-Bird
03-03-2011, 04:13 PM
Getting the turn was easy. The bore was somewhat rusty when I got it, as I said. I cleaned it, the rifling appear to be very shallow. The bullet will slide very easily into the bore when unlubed. T-Bird

oldhickory
03-03-2011, 06:20 PM
A little rust shouldn't be a problem, I've shot originals with slightly-moderately pitted bores that did fairly well. The rifling in these should be shallow for the hollow base boolits, so no worries there, (though I've seen some Hoyt barrels with pretty deep rifling shoot some amazing groups also).

Check the gun out completely, look down the sides of the barrel and drop a AAA mini maglite down the bore to check to make sure it's not bent. Give it another try with the tang screw good and snug and see what happens. Treat it like it's the first time shooting it, and the mold was a gift. I like my hollow base .58 boolits to drop from the mold just a bit over-size and lube&size them to fit the bore with no play, (unlubed) they slide down a clean bore, (lubed) with just a little finger pressure. I haven't used the LEE improved minie, but can't imagine it's too bad. I like the Lyman 575213OS, or the Rapine 580460 myself for the generous amount of lube they'll take and the nice sharp scraping grooves. As I said before, you should find good accuracy between 40-55gr. of FFFg. If it shoots a little high, filling the base with Crisco will bring it down a little.

If it still don't shoot, geta tube of lipstick, (your choice of color:-P) apply a smooth coat to the under side of the barrel and carefully set it in the stock, tighten the tang screw and set the bands in place-remove it and check for lipstick in the stock channel. If it's just spotty, or non-existant, (at the breech area in particular) it will greatly benifit from bedding.

Properly assembled, even with "iffy" bedding, it should still shoot 4" groups or under at 50yds.

Good luck.

Hanshi
03-04-2011, 01:45 PM
The interesting thing about this rifle - in the original .54, at least - is that it was designed as a round ball shooter; the last one so designed for the military. I bought mine from Jarnigans around a decade ago and it is stamped "Euroarms". The rifling appears to be only about .006" deep. Still, it can shoot 1" groups at 50 yards. It loads easiest with .010" patches but can tolerate .015 patches well lubed.

T-Bird
03-04-2011, 07:40 PM
It will shoot round balls well, it just shoots about 8 or 9 inches low at 50 yds. T-Bird

oldhickory
03-05-2011, 09:11 AM
Hanshi is right, the 1841 rifle did enter service intended for .54 patched ball ammunition having rather deep rifling. Starting after 1855 many of these rifles underwent updates and were re-bored to .58 and rifled with shallow rifling intended for use with conical hollow base ammuntiion as designed by James Burton of Harper's Ferry arsenal.

As many as 15, (or more) different conversions were accomplished on the 1841, including 2 breech loading conversions. Some were done at Harper's Ferry, others by States, and still others on contract by firms such as Colt, Lehman, and other gun manufacturers. Some simply bored and rifled to .58, (such as most re-pops) others fitted with a variety of long range sights and various types and bayonet lugs, both saber type, and socket type.

These converted Mississippi's suplemented the U.S. 1855 Harper's Ferry rifles as well as state arsenals with many being issued for use in the War Between The States by both sides.

Dave Pool's horse
03-05-2011, 09:40 AM
The minie won't drop to the powder level, but it requires VERY little pushing. I do have a small amt of real black i will try it. Thanks Hickory T-Bird

Tbird, I have the same gun, I modified it to a variant E with long range sights, I can hit clay pigeons at 100 yards with ease. As for your powder charge with a minnie, I use a 1-10 method, if you have a 500 grain bullet, start with 50 grains 2f and play with it from there. I shoot in the N-SSA and the old timers there are chuck full of great rifle musket info. I wouldn't shoot a minnie less than 425 gr., you can find a great recipe for bullet lube on this wesite, and pure lead is a must. Let me know if you ever want to sell it.

T-Bird
03-05-2011, 01:19 PM
I'll try it one more time with the tightened tang screw. I'll use aroud 50 gr 2F and see. Dave, what dia. minie are you using? T-Bird

StrawHat
03-07-2011, 07:38 AM
I'll try it one more time with the tightened tang screw. I'll use aroud 50 gr 2F and see. Dave, what dia. minie are you using? T-Bird

T Bird,

Before you tighten the tang screw, remove the barrel bands so there is nothing holding the barrel to the stock. Then tighten the tang screw. If the barrel flexes out of the stock, the tang needs to be bedded or at least shimmed.

Good luck, it should be a better shooter than what you are getting.

Hanshi
03-07-2011, 02:49 PM
Oldhickory, for sure the M1841 had a good life. From my research about 1/3 were actually converted to .58 and I'd suspect (no way to confirm) these would show the hardest and most use. And I agree with you about some being converted to fire cartridges as were many Springfields. These were less wasteful times. My .54 will shoot Maxi ball/hunter slugs with very good accuracy but not with the gilt edged precision of prb. With it's 1-66" twist it's a wonder it will shoot slugs at all.

T-Bird, The problem with my M1841 is that it shoots way too high and that's a more difficult fix. The rear sight will only file down so far till sight alignment is affected. Still even before I worked on the rear sight I still cleanly took a large doe by aiming low along the belly line. It still shoots high but not so much that I can't live with it. You may need to replace that front sight if it can't be filed down enough.
http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/hanshi_photo/PICT0439.jpg

oldhickory
03-08-2011, 08:26 AM
Hanshi, one of the fellows I used to shoot N-SSA comp with had a Zoli Miss. with the same issue of shooting high. He didn't want to alter the front sight, so he drilled a small "peep" under the rear sight notch and shot pretty well with it for years, using the "peep" for 50yd. and the V for 100.

Hanshi
03-08-2011, 12:02 PM
Oldhickory, I sorta did something along that line. There was a "shoulder" deep in the original notch that put the ball only 3" to 4" high at 50 yards. When I filed down the rear, I deepened the notch as well so that the rifle could be sighted normally. I may still lower the rear sight just a little more. I've had the "too high" problem with a Zouave as well as two c&b revolvers. Was this the way the sights were made originally?

oldhickory
03-08-2011, 01:50 PM
Hanshi, I have a couple of originals that shoot to POA with issue sights, using 50-55gr. FFFg. and the 575213OS/Rapine 580460, (MV aprox the same as CW ammo). Then again, I have some that shoot high with original sights. One cure for the Springfield type rear sight is to buy a blank leaf, (it's a simple "L" leaf that pivots on the sight screw, one leaf can be set for 50yds and the other for 100,available from Lodgewood-pretty cheap, replaces original leaf ) and cut, notch, or drill it to your rifle. They're very mild steel and easy to work with on the range using hand tools and the original rear sight can be replaced with a few turns of the leaf retaining screw. Or a high front sight can be soldered onto the barrel.