first cast, a couple of Q's

[toddx]

Got to cast today.
I have a Lee 185 gr .312 mold.
I casted bullet weights of 177 176 177.7 177.7 176.3 173 178.3 174.4 174.9 176.6 176.6 176.9 176.4 177.9 175.9
This seem like too much of a difference?
Some of the bullet bases are rounded like I think they should be for a gas check and some are more flat base and jagged.
I can't say I am impressed with this mold. it is floppy and shaky and I had to always make sure the two halves were flush on the bottom and then clamp pretty tight whilst pouring.
I am very happy to have at least made something that looks like a bullet. I will probabaly toss them back unless you guys say different.

I used about 5% added tin with WW's.

[caseyboy]

You have about a 5 grain difference from lightest to heaviest. Quite a spread. At short distances these are good plinkers and you won't see the difference. The rounded bases are not good. All bases should be well filled out with a sharp edge. This could be a reason for the varying weight. 5% tin is a lot. I only use 2% tin and I get great fill out. No problem using 5% if that is what you like, just that tin is expensive and you can easily get by with much less.

Every mould likes a certain pace, flow rate into the mould as well as a certain size sprue. Once you have found these, consistency in weight will improve greatly. Lee moulds are not bad for the money, there is a lot you can do with them to make them cast better. Do a search on Leementing.

[onondaga]

You are new at it give yourself some slack. When you learn how to cadence your work and maintain good mold temp, all the bullet bottoms will look the same and the weights will be closer. You have less than a 3 grain span in bullet weights, That is actually pretty good. Just say your bullet weight is the same as the average weight and all your bullets are plus or minus 1.5 grains. That is match quality bullet standard.

Looking at the mold blocks to see if they are flush every time is something you should never stop doing. That is the right way.

Gary

[45-70 Chevroner]

Some of the guys weigh boolits and some don't. From what you are discribing you need a little higher temp. Also 14 or 15 boolits will not give you a good indication of what a batch of say 3, 4, or 500 will. After casting that many boolits you can visually inspect and cull the ones that have rinkles or rounded bases or bases that are not filled out. Then if you want to weigh them go ahead. I weigh my 30 cal. rifle boolits to + or - 1 gr. The larger the boolit the more I allow in weight veriance. My 45-70 boolits I weigh to with in 2 gr. + or -. Money or big prize shooters will weigh to within .3 gr. I like to have fun and get a nice group on paper. Your boolits are close to my needs. You just need to cast a lot more boolits.

[HammerMTB]

I'll tell ya how I sort when I weigh a buncha boolits:
I take a piece of notebook paper and put the 177 grain boolits in 1 row. 178's go in the next row. If you start your sort in the middle of the page, you will get a bell curve in a bit. You get a few on the heavy side, but most outliers are light.
Then I find the weight I cast the most of and keep those and some to each side, typically those that have the most in their row. It will become very apparent which will be near enough the proper weight, and which are "just not right"
If you were shooting pistol boolits at less than 25 yards, you could visual inspect only and be done. The process above will give you good results until you are shooting very competitively in cast boolit rifle matches.

[HangFireW8]

I've found that pre-heating the mold, then flipping and pre-heating the sprue cutter right before casting sure helps with avoiding rounded bases.

Also, I stopped throwing sprues and rejects back into the pot until I take a short break, as it causes the pot temps to vary too much. I toss them into an old old bread pan (marked "not for food") and toss them back in later.

I have a C312-185-1R, it is one of my best running molds, and my FN made .31-06 loves it.

-HF

[toddx]

I didn't think of heating the sprue cutter. I will try that next. I cast one more time and got rid of the round bottom boolits but I have some bases that are kind of rough around the edges.
I went ahead lubed them to be able to size on Sunday then relube.
I am sure I won't set any accuracy records but it will be good to go through the complete process.
On another note I confessed to stealing my wifes mini muffin tins and she was OK with it but not the bad smell of Smelting. I wear a mask but the smell goes about and she hates it..we all do. With a respirator I smell nothing. I am set with ingots now for 500 rounds. For me that will take a while to use up.
Note to self...Smelt when wife goes out.

[HangFireW8]

I cast one more time and got rid of the round bottom boolits but I have some bases that are kind of rough around the edges.

That can mean cutting the sprue before it is fully solid. It also might be the sprue plate hold-down screw coming loose and leaving a little clearance there.


Note to self...Smelt when wife goes out.

Same thing here... marital harmony is important.

-HF

[caseyboy]

How do they weigh now with more uniform filled out bases? I bet they will be closer to oneanother than the results you got before.

[geargnasher]

5% tin added to WW is WAY too much, it is possible to "over-tin" an alloy, meaning any more tin than antimony is not good due to the way it affects cooling. WW have anywhere from about 2% to 4% antimony and a little tin present, I wouldn't add more than 1.5% additional tin if it was me.

Rounded bases and driving bands mean either oil contamination of the mould or underside of the sprue plate, or, the more likely culprit, sprue plate and mould too cold. I really like to run my Lee moulds hot, with a fairly cool pot temperature (700* on average), and I preheat my two-banger Lees by dipping a corner of the mould in the melt for about 30 seconds (or until lead won't stick to it), then dunk the tab on the sprue plate for 10 seconds and get to casting. I cast pretty fast, about 3-4 pours per minute to keep the temperature up. You might try this preheating method since it is way faster than setting up a hot plate when it comes to two-cavities. For the multi-cavity moulds, or extremely bulky moulds, I use a hot plate to preheat them to casting temp before pouring lead in them.

Most of your weight variances have to do with poor fillout, if you can get nice sharp bases and bands on all of them, your weights will probably differ by 1/2 grain or less provided your mould closes completely each time.

I don't know if you're familiar with what we call "frosty" boolits or not, but boolits cast from WW metals or any alloy containing a little antimony will get a light grey, "dull" or "satin" look to the surface with a really warm mould. This starts happening somewhere between 3-400 degrees, depends on mould and alloy. I always get better fillout with boolits that are just slightly frosty all over, regardless of mould type, and would suggest you try to get your mould up to that temp and see if your boolits don't fill out better. I should take 3-6 seconds for the sprue to harden enough to cut when your sprue plate is hot enough for good boolit base fillout. Remember lead will "shy" away from cold corners of the mould, leaving rounded edges if the mould isn't hot enough.

One more thing, if your mould isn't hot enough, don't reach for the pot dial to turn it way up, cast faster instead. The more hot lead you have cycling through the mould in a given time the hotter the blocks will get. At some point you'll have to slow down and even out your pace once the mould starts working for you, and you can bet the first few boolits from each session will be culls even if you preheat the mould. It takes a little time for the heat to even-out. Try not to run your pot any hotter than necessary, if you get it too hot you'll get excessive oxide scum on top to deal with.

Hope this helps,

Gear

[toddx]

Gear
I have been reading a lot of threads and such but find your info most helpful. A previous poster mentioned heating the sprue plate of which I did not. I have been dipping the corner in to get it hot.
My problem is that I am going low tech and have no pot. I have a Coleman stove and a 6oz ladle. I have been having problems with the multi colored oxidation from possilby too high of heat and have been simply turning my coleman dial down a little. This old guy I watched pour this way heats up his ladle and checks temp by how fast his candle wax goes off. If it does not ignite fast then the alloy needs to be hotter. I find that I almost have to have the oxidation to make the wax "go off" like his did. This guy casts by instinct and claims he has poured 3 tons of lead. I re met this guy at the range and I believe him. The continually shoot multiple hand guns and rifles with out stop.
I had a few frosty boolits but most were not.
I will heat the sprue and pour faster if I can.
I am going to load and shoot the ones I made just for fun. I lubed, sized and re lubed and now I need to look at my new CM expanding die. Do you do this? My friend says to only take and inside/outside chamfer tool and thats all you need? ALL FUN, thanks

[mold maker]

One of the first problems with a new caster is inspecting the results of each pour before re-filling the mold. This is usually done with an open mold which means the sprue plate is flapping in the breeze and loosing all the heat it gained from the pour.
Not saying that's your problem, but it's the first mistake most Nobie caster have to overcome.
Alu molds give up heat much faster, than iron, and make the problem worse.
Small dia boolits are slower to heat the mold, and have less heat, to keep it hot.
All the above posted, good advice, but the answer is to become a seasoned caster. Use the advice and spend the time to develop a cadence, that keeps the mold open the least, and fresh filled the most. That will allow you to use less time to produce the better quality you seek.
I started out on a Coleman stove with a SS pot and a big serving spoon. That was about 1965, and I have saved so much money since, that I get mail addressed to, "Bakers Poor House.
I wouldn't trade the fun I've had for all the money in the world, however I would like to try that. for a week or two.

[nwellons]

On another note I confessed to stealing my wifes mini muffin tins and she was OK with it but not the bad smell of Smelting. I wear a mask but the smell goes about and she hates it..we all do. With a respirator I smell nothing.
Note to self...Smelt when wife goes out.

If you are smelting and/or casting lead indoors, it can be very dangerous. I would only do that with very efficient exhaust ventilation and would still be concerned. The mask may protect you directly (depending on whether it is a respirator that works on these vapors or just a mask.) But vapors and fine particulates could be contaminating the whole area.

I always do my lead work outside and strongly recommend it. I was a Safety Director for 10 years before I retired.

[toddx]

If you are smelting and/or casting lead indoors, it can be very dangerous. I would only do that with very efficient exhaust ventilation and would still be concerned. The mask may protect you directly (depending on whether it is a respirator that works on these vapors or just a mask.) But vapors and fine particulates could be contaminating the whole area.

I always do my lead work outside and strongly recommend it. I was a Safety Director for 10 years before I retired.

Yes I agree, I smelt and cast outside with a fan directing the fumes away. My respirator is a 3M Organic vapor painters respirator Series 7500. Do you know if this one is good for what I am doing? I am only assuming if a guy can paint in a booth with toxic fumes that this would be OK for smelting?
t

[MtGun44]

Hogwash.

Casting indoors has no risk of lead vapors. It can make the wife very unhappy about
smells, but is NOT a safety issue. Lead only vaporizes at temperatures far higher than
casting temps. Lead particles are ALWAYS an issue when handling lead. Wash your
hands after casting and loading, do not EVER eat, drink or smoke while casting or handling
lead or reloading and you will be just fine. Essentially all lead ingestion is via the mouth,
so keeping contaminated stuff (anything on the bench, ever!) out of your mouth - don't
hold that pen in your mouth, or any other piece of reloading stuff.

This "lead vapors" stuff is a common old wive's tale, and is absolutely false from a
scientific standpoint. Lead dust is the issue and it is simple to deal with.

[toddx]

Thanks mtgun44
I was surprised to read that melted lead can only cause bad vapor issues at some 3000 degrees. I don't wear a mask when I am casting. I just do it outside to keep my wonderful wife happy. She has a nose smeller like no other.
Yes , I keep washing my hands, lots of lead touching.
t

[geargnasher]

Gear
I have been reading a lot of threads and such but find your info most helpful. Thanks. I try. A previous poster mentioned heating the sprue plate of which I did not. Many of us do that, it's faster than pouring a big sprue puddle until it gets hot. I have been dipping the corner in to get it hot.
My problem is that I am going low tech and have no pot. That's not a "problem", I've done it that way, countless thousands of others have, too, for generations. I have a Coleman stove and a 6oz ladle. I have been having problems with the multi colored oxidation from possilby too high of heat and have been simply turning my coleman dial down a little. OK, this is important. That oxide scum you notice is caused by TOO MUCH HEAT for the alloy you're using. It can be a real bother when ladle pouring, especially if you aren't using a Rowel type ladle. The oxides form much more slowly at lower pot temps. This old guy I watched pour this way heats up his ladle and checks temp by how fast his candle wax goes off. If it does not ignite fast then the alloy needs to be hotter. I strongly disagree with his method. If it will light by itself, the alloy is too hot already. If it smokes and sizzles, it's about right. I find that I almost have to have the oxidation to make the wax "go off" like his did. You proved my point right there. You DO have to have the melt above ideal casting temperature to get the wax to spontaneously ignite. I like to light my wax with a BBQ lighter to produce extra carbon monoxide at the melt's surface, CO and C are responsible for the chemical "reduction" reaction that turns the oxide scum back into shiny metal, the whole reason behind why we "flux" with was or sawdust to begin with. This guy casts by instinct and claims he has poured 3 tons of lead. Instinct has a lot to do with it when using primitive means, you'll learn the "signs" like he did, but I would suggest keeping the heat lower than he did to minimize the oxide formation. I re met this guy at the range and I believe him. The continually shoot multiple hand guns and rifles with out stop.
I had a few frosty boolits but most were not. Cool mould =shiny/wrinkles/round bases and bands. Individual preferences differ, but I get my best results with a light frost from a hot mould. There is a happy medium here, too hot will leave your boolits rounded and looking like they were sandblasted. If you can wipe off the "frost" with a dry rag and leave a shiny boolit behind, you're in good shape.
I will heat the sprue and pour faster if I can. What ever you do, just try to be consistent. This takes practice. Just cast and have fun, try different casting paces and alloy temperature, you have to get a "feel" for what your mould and alloy likes, as each mould is different, and each alloy has a unique 'ideal' temperature depending on how much tin or antimony is present.
I am going to load and shoot the ones I made just for fun. I lubed, sized and re lubed and now I need to look at my new CM expanding die. Do you do this? My friend says to only take and inside/outside chamfer tool and thats all you need? With cast boolits, you will need to "flare" the case mouth some just like you would normally do with straight-walled pistol cases even for jacketed bullets. I don't know what a "CM" die is, but you'll need a bit of flare to seat the boolits without shaving lead, an inside chamfer isn't enough. ALL FUN, thanks

There's a lot to learn here, you're getting the crash course! Things like oversized case neck expanders come in handy when shooting cast boolits, since most of our cast boolits need to be a little larger than jacketed bullets to fit the barrel for a good seal (obturation) and not lead. As far as learning how to cast, just keep the mould hot, the alloy cool, and practice, practice, practice! If you have to stop every 15-20 minutes and reduce the oxides back in your melt with some wax and stir/skim the ash, that's normal with your setup because ladling exposes so much of the melt to the air each pour. If you have to do it every five minutes, turn down the burner.

Gear

[fredj338]

First, it's a Lee mold, don't expect too much.
Keep in mind that you will always have some variation, especially if you add metal to the pot as you cast. Alloy & mold temp will influence the wt as will bulltes that are completely filled out vs not so much. As the bulelts get larger the variation gets wider. I only weigh rifle bullts & handgun bullets used for hunting. A deviation of more than 1% goes back to the pot. After all, I am looking to elminate as many neg variables to accuracy as possible as the shooting distances extend. Throw out the high & low & your avg wt is about 176.5gr, anything 1% over or under that I would pitch back.

[toddx]

GEAR
SCHOOL IS DEFINETLEY IN SESSION! WOW. I'm learning.
If you have time for more here is another Q
You seem to use or be very familiar with Lee molds. Do you use the Lee Alox/beeswax stuff? One guy told me that I could use pencil lead for MOLD lube so I did that. When I cast I had a hard time getting one particular side to release the boolit. ( burr?) This made my temp go down and messed me up. In Lee's troublshooting dircets they say a stuck bullet in the mold is due to not enough MOLD lube on the v ribs and such. Could be my problem but why would lube everywhere but the cavity help release a boolit in a cavity? I washed my mold again more vigorously and also what do you think about smoking the cavity. Some here are saying NOT to smoke? I am going to wait for the Lee lube to show up. Many confuse what I am saying and talk about bullet lube. This is a MOLD lube Q.
thanks

[HammerMTB]

Lemme throw ya a few tidbits I have picked up:
The best mold lube I have used is Bullplate, bar none. Yes, I have tried a lot of other products, including alox/beeswax. I still use a lot of alox/beeswax as boolit lube, but Bullplate is the ONLY thing that touches my molds. I use a lot of Lee molds, and all aluminum molds.
Bullplate is sold by the Bull Shop, a vendor here.
The wax you use as reductant is OK, but if you can get clean dry sawdust it will be better by far. The finer the sawdust the better.
Along with many others, I used to smoke my aluminum molds, but have found a clean, Lee-mented aluminum mold will cast the best boolits. Look up Lee-menting in the stickies at the top of the page. Your boolits will fall form the mold easily if you follow that procedure.
Yer gettin' a graduate level of learning all thrown at ya at once. Take some time, keep it fun, shoot some of those boolits even if they're not perfect, and you'll be casting beautiful filled-out little pills in a short while.

Lee-menting (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=654) Here's the link to Lee-menting. It is in Molds, Maintenance and design

[JIMinPHX]

Note to self...Smelt when wife goes out.

Yep, neighbors too.:idea:

The mold blocks are supposed to be a little loose & sloppy on the handles. That's normal. They line up on the pins & V-grooves when you close the blocks together. If they are not lining up well when you close them, then either something is dimensionally wrong, or you need better lube on the locating surfaces. More often than not, it's a lube issue.

Bullplate is the best mold block & sprue plate lube to use. The second best that I've found is a mixture of hi-temp grease from the auto parts store & never-sieze, about 5 to 1. Bullplate is much better though. Be careful not to get your block & sprue plate lube in the cavities. Just use it on the contact surfaces.

As others have said, rounded bases are frequently causes by the sprue plate not being hot enough. Also 5% is more tin than you probably want to use. I find that sometimes, letting a little extra melted lead run over the top of the sprue plate for a few extra seconds helps to keep the sprue plate a little hotter. That's all I really ever do to warm it up.

Not getting the mold & sprue plate hot enough is one of the most common issues that new casters run into. The other one is galling up the tops of brand new blocks because they didn't lubricate them properly. Pencil marks will lubricate the blocks for a little while, but that stuff never seems to last for me. I would recommend that you get a better lube (like Bullplate) as soon as possible, as in before disaster strikes.

Also, if you are casting & the sprue plate starts to feel a little stiff, stop casting, wait for everything to cool & then take the mold apart & clean the boogers off the mating surfaces before the damage gets worse, which can happen pretty quickly once trouble starts.

[geargnasher]

Get some Bullplate from the Bullshop, apply exactly like the instructions say, no more, no less.

DO NOT smoke your mould cavities, this creates more problems than it solves.

Clean your mould with brake cleaner and a toothbrush, or really hot water and detergent, comet, bar keeper's friend, soak it in Kroil or minereal spirits, whatever it takes to get all the machining oil out of the mould cavities.

DO NOT use boolit lube to lube your mould, it will stick and burn and make a gummy mess that will keep the blocks from closing completely.

The majority of the members here know a bit more about mould prep and maintenance than Richard Lee does, so throw his instructions in the trash and try what we've recommended. If you want the long explanation about smoke and lube, we can give it to you, but it really doesn't matter.

Read the Lee-menting link Hammer posted, it's a good one.

There's nothing wrong with a Lee boolit mould, you just have to take some precautions with them and prep them correctly for best results.

Gear

[toddx]

Thanks to ALL. That was a no Bull session. ha.
Time to apply what learned.
Stay hot and keep your cavities clean!
T