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View Full Version : The Old .30 HBC Again!



Ricochet
11-14-2006, 08:17 PM
I finally got around to trying out my first boolits from Aladdin's .30 HBC mould that I got (and cast these boolits from) nearly 2 years ago. I'd gotten distracted with other things, mainly milsurps with large volumes of dirt-cheap milsurp ammo, and hadn't been loading and casting until recently when I got started back again.

These boolits were cast from straight wheelweights, water-dropped from the mould, and were quite hard. Shone like silver and jingled like bells. Pretty things; I gave a bunch of them to my daughter for art projects, only having 40 left. They weighed right about 200 grains, and miked .312". A couple of nights ago I ran them through a Lee .311" sizer to crimp on the checks and tumble lubed them with White Lightning. I loaded them in neck sized Remington .300 Weatherby Magnum brass over a 4.0cc dipper full of IMR 7383 struck level with a knife blade, around 48 grains. Gently flared the case mouths with a Lee Universal Expanding Die till the checks would just go in by hand, and aligned them as straight as I possibly could before seating them in the die. Used CCI 250 primers, seated them to 3.560" so they'd function through the magazine (meaning there's about 3/8" freebore before they reach the rifling) and crimped them hard with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

I got out to the range for a little while late this afternoon and tried some, along with full power loads with those redcoat bullets and a compressed load of WC860. The powder in the cast loads burned quite cleanly, and they did not lead the bore at all. I wasn't shooting well at all today, but the best group I shot was a 2 1/4" 100 yard group with the HBC cast boolits. The J-bullets were spraying out over 5-6", I think mainly because I've loaded these cases one time too many with neck sizing in a Lee collet die with no full length sizing or annealing. I noticed as I was loading the J-bullets that there was a wide variation in neck tension with many quite loose. That wasn't as much of a problem with the cast boolits as they're sized .311" and filled the necks well. Took a good shove to seat all of them. One case with a J-bullet load was a little too fat at the shoulder for the bolt to close with reasonable force. I'll have to take it apart and resize it. And when I get these cases emptied out, they're getting annealed. Oh yeah, the HBC boolits with the 48 grains or so of 7383 average right at 1900 FPS. The case looks about 5/8 full. I used no filler.

Anyway, the HBC shows good promise in the .300 Weatherby with 7383 and White Lightning. I'll work on it further. The last scoop in my Lee set is 4.3cc, I think. I'll try it, too. If I want to go any higher, I have to go to double dipping with smaller measures. Like I did with the WC860; two 3.1cc scoops fill it up into the case neck. (I've got an RCBS measure, but I HATE to shear through IMR powder kernels with it! And it doesn't measure coarse tubular powders any more precisely than the Lee dippers do.)

shooter575
11-14-2006, 10:20 PM
Gee-wiz,I forgot all about that mould.I also have a bunch of them cast up somewhere? Keep us informed

Newtire
11-15-2006, 09:40 AM
I have some of those too. Kind of on a diffrerent note...Just wondered what ever happened to Aladdin? Seems that hiim and some of the board members didn't see eye to eye and next thing we know he is a goner. Kind of seemed like when the men in the shiny black boots and tight fitting leather gloves with monacles come to the door and take Dad away. wha-hoppen?

Ricochet
11-15-2006, 02:34 PM
Yeah, I don't know what the disagreements were based on and don't care to be involved, but if you search the archives on discussion of this boolit, the last threads degenerated into rancorous attacks on Aladdin and ended with relatively little having been posted on actual experience with the boolit. Some of it was quite encouraging. There were some opinions expressed about why it wouldn't work, but some did get good groups with it, mostly at fairly low velocities. Seems to me that the keys to getting it to shoot well are keeping the boolits nice and straight and concentric, for which the push-through sizing would seem to be superior, loading it likewise straight and concentric, and making sure it fits snugly in the throat so it can't tip, also casting it hard and keeping pressures modest so the nose doesn't slump and go eccentric. Basically, all the good things you want to do for any cast load, just more critical with the long unsupported ogive. But if the boolit can be started straight, there's no reason it should fly any differently than a comparable jacketed spitzer.

I'm of the opinion that peak pressure is more important than muzzle velocity for cast boolits. Pressure is the main factor that influences boolit obturation and deformation from "slugging up" under the pressure from behind. Also, for lubes, it determines the pressure the lube supports with the film between the obturating boolit and the bore, and the pressure of leaking gas that the lube helps to seal. And for gas that does leak and may cause gas cutting of the alloy, that would be directly pressure-linked. The only internal ballistic factor that's directly velocity related is sliding friction heating of the metal surface. So I'm inclined to focus my efforts on loads with larger charges of slower burning powders that can reach the same or higher velocities at lower peak pressures than small loads of fast burning powders that have traditionally been recommended for cast shooting. A long, gentle shove from behind's got to be better for the boolit than a quick kick in the rear for the same speed.

Maven
11-15-2006, 05:02 PM
All, I got erratic results in my .30-06 with the .30HBC. Using 13, 15, and 17grs. WC 820, I got ~1.5 m.o.a. [With other CB's I'd use 18.5 or 20.5gr. WC 820 and get ~ 1 - 1.5 m.o.a.) Bass or perhaps 45 2.1 then suggested I try the .30HBC with a slower powder, which I did and got higher velocity and a bit better than 1.5 m.o.a. Since I had other molds that would shoot more accurately and weren't as sensitive to velocity or powder burning rate, e.g., Ly. #311644 & a Saeco RG-4, I decided to sell it. Pat Iffland of the CBA purchased it, but I don't know what success he had with it.

trk
11-15-2006, 06:46 PM
I finally got around to trying out my first boolits from Aladdin's .30 HBC mould that I got (and cast these boolits from) nearly 2 years ago.
...


THANKS for bringing this to light again!

I took this summer off (from real life - - worked 22 Saturdays and a dozen Sundays since May).

I was working on getting good with cast in rifles, working up to the HBC. Got Wilson straight line seater, made several expanders and so forth in .308.

Did a lot of load development for a friend (.30-06 / Springfield) and am working up cast loads now for a #4 Mk1.

What I want to do is to start from good known loads/procedures in several bullet weights (cast of course) and use that as a baseline for which to compare the HBC.

It's been a real learning experience thus far. There are so many variables to play with - it's not as easy as with pistol loading - where the BIGGEST variable is ME.

Ben
11-15-2006, 07:01 PM
I purchased one of those molds myself. I have a Commercial double set triggered 98' Mauser 06' that I built recently. I shoot the .30 HCB with 11.2 of Unique at 50 yards into a ragged hole with that rifle .

I've shot the bullet in other .30 rounds like the .308 Win. I've found it to be just as accurate ( and sometimes ...more so ) than any of my other 180 - 220 gr. .30 bullets from my many .30 cal. rifle molds.

Thanks,

Ben in
Alabama

floodgate
11-15-2006, 10:26 PM
ricochet:

" Seems to me that the keys to getting it to shoot well are keeping the boolits nice and straight and concentric, for which the push-through sizing would seem to be superior, loading it likewise straight and concentric, and making sure it fits snugly in the throat so it can't tip, also casting it hard and keeping pressures modest so the nose doesn't slump and go eccentric. Basically, all the good things you want to do for any cast load, just more critical with the long unsupported ogive. But if the boolit can be started straight, there's no reason it should fly any differently than a comparable jacketed spitzer."

PRECISELY the same prescription as that for getting the old Sam Squibb #311413 to perform in the .30-'06! - 50+ years back!

Gotta get my HBC out and try it! Besides, I too miss Aladdin!

floodgate

floodgate

floodgate
11-15-2006, 10:30 PM
Ricochet:

"A long, gentle shove from behind's got to be better for the boolit than a quick kick in the rear for the same speed."

Unless, of course, you're shooting an undersized, soft boolit over BP and relying on "bump-up". But that's a whole 'nother ballgame.

floodgate

Ricochet
11-16-2006, 12:31 PM
Yeah, BP's another ballgame, all right. Just another example of the different variables one must take into account. It sure isn't as simple as loading most pistol rounds!

mosin9130
11-17-2006, 05:03 AM
I remember the Aladdin's project and the boring polemics around him, his project and his pretended experience (his detractors called him 'three rifles man' because his experience was limited to the possession of three rifles, if I correctly remember).
Now I'm curious to see his 30HBC!
May anyone post a pic of these boolits?

Ben
11-17-2006, 10:47 AM
Here is the photo you wanted to see, the bullet is sitting by
a Lyman 31141 for comparison:

2385

mosin9130
11-17-2006, 11:32 AM
Thank you, Ben.
After seen the boolits, I understand the inherent limits of design.

w30wcf
11-28-2006, 10:57 AM
Yes, I did find in my .30-30 Rem 788 that slower burning H414 would push the .30HBC to 2,000 f.p.s. and maintain 2 M.O.A. accuracy out to 500 meters. Bullets were made from w.w. + 2% and heat treated. Lube - NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax.

w30wcf

trk
12-31-2006, 01:53 PM
It's almost time to start on the HBC in earnest.
Got my loading/shooting skills up to a good starting point (Rem 40x 7.62 Nato using Sierra 168's 100yds 19 groups of 3 in a row (over two days) ALL under 1" with average of .64". Also got the 35 Whelen to doing under 1" with 173gr gc (50yds) (needs improvement).

Now I feel like I've got a baseline from which to start. Guess I'll cast a few hundred to start with - all in one batch and oven heat-treat for uniformity.

Ahhh, but which powder to choose? 4350, 4064, 748, and a few others in stock.

Ricochet
12-31-2006, 03:20 PM
Sounds like all three of those powders are good possibilities.

I've just gotten a .308" sizing kit to use with these in my K-31. The chamber jumps from case neck diameter to .308" with a square face about 1.5mm in front of the case mouth, so anything over .308" is being shaved off and has to be seated so the tapered ogive starts right at the case mouth. A .308" projectile can be seated a little farther out (about 1/8") to be against the actual origin of the lands, and won't shave on firing. Shaving off through a square face can't be good for the leading edge of gas checks, especially.

The Weatherby likes the .311" sized diameter, which is likely a tight fit in the chamber throat.

I've had pretty good success with plain JPW and with WL. I'm going to have to try that JPW with a little LLA mixed in to make it less brittle and adhere better to metal. 357Maximum says it's gooey and gross initially, but dries to a nice consistency and shoots well with hot loads in his .357 Maximum. Sounds like it's got good potential for higher velocity rifle loads.

I have already found that dipping plain JPW onto the boolits shortly before loading, putting them in the case while it's still soft, works a lot better than letting it fully dry first, and I believe the dipping of the noses of loaded boolits helps.

I still tend to expect that for high speeds you need a lot of lube, but with WL I am cutting down to where there's just a good waxy film and not full lube grooves with extra gobs to get shaved off by the case neck for ~2000 FPS loads.