30-30 The most versetile Caliber?

[KCSO]

I have been working with the 32 Special some and as I compared the 30-30 and the 32 Special I have decided that whatever small advantage the 32 offers in accuracy potential is more than offset by the 30-30's versitality. The 32 special 35-55, 35 remington and the other lever gun calibers don't hold a candle to the 30-30 for all around use. I have 9 mold suitable for use in the 30-30 ranging from 93 grains to 180 grains and have used the gun for everything from mice to moose. I have been contemplating taking my next buffalo with the 30-30 just to see how it will do. Loads for the 30-30 range from a 93 at 750 fps to a 180 at 2000fps. In contrast the 32 Special is 160 to 170 bullets from 1400 to 2100fps. If there were more bullets made for the 32 would it be as good with all the different weights?

[felix]

The 30-30 should have a slower twist to be as gracious as the 32-30. You would change your vote should you get a pistol boolit or two in the 323 diameter. Try making up one on Dan's web site. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

I gotta side with KCSO on this one--the 30-30 and its 1-12" twist is just more useful all-around than the 32 Special and its 1-16" twist. 1-12 may not be as friendly to pistol-sized boolits as the 32's 1-16, but the 1-12 will stabilize a far wider range of boolit weights (lengths) than the 1-16 will.

One particular hunting load application that comes to mind is a version of the 303 Savage 190 grainer @ 1950 FPS--would the 1-16 twist stabilize a .321" x 190 grainer at such speeds? The 30-30 so loaded is a notch above the usual run of 150-170 grain flatnoses--although all three weights will do well for deer at reasonable ranges.

[StarMetal]

Well my best friend, from childhood to now, and I grew up with the Model 94 Winchester in 32 Special. So, it has become special to us. We experimented heavily with it even as teenagers. We even shot it with blackpowder. Even though this gun and it's caliber holds a special spot in my heart, in all reality the 30-30 is the better caliber choice. That bears out with history as the 32 spcl fades into history. The popularly and survival of the 30-30 spells out something and I believe that something to be that it's the more versatile caliber. As an interesting side not one of my Dad's good friends had a Model 94 in 32 Special, but what unique about it was that it had a blonde stock. Remember how, back in the 50's and 60's, blonde bedroom furniture was popular, well this stock was the same color and to me that color was more of an off white then blonde.

Joe

[45 2.1]

The 30-30 and all its brethren are excellent cast bullet slingers. What would likely out do it would be the wildcat 35-30, talk about mold selection there.

[StarMetal]

Bob

Even though the 30-40 Krag come along before the 30-30 my one friend got a laugh out of renaming cartridges and the we called the 30-40 the 30-30 magnum. That's kind of what it looks like is a little bigger 30-30. The 303 British we called the 303-30, just a 30-30 with a slightly larger bullet.

Joe

[jh45gun]

I do not know why but a lot of the 32 specials I have seen really have had crappy bores in the older guns. My first buck a 10 pointer was killed with a borrowed 32 special with a lot of luck as the gun shot like crap neither my dad or a couple of other guys could get it to shoot after I tried to sight it in as a kid. We blamed the sights and my dad said I could use it or use a shotgun.Well in them days in Northern WI hardly anyone used a shotgun. Most had lever 30/30s or Savage lever guns ect. I did not want to use a shotgun so I used the 32 special even though it shot crappy. The buck ran right at me and I shot and missed. I aimed down the barrel and shot again at its chest and somehow hit its neck. Now knowing what I know about guns I know we never looked down the bore of that gun at least not closely. Dad I am sure looked to see the bore was not blocked but I really do not think he was a expert in what good rifleing looked like. The rifleing in his 30/30 94 was mint even though it was a old model carbine. I would bet anything the rifleing on that 32 special was about worn out and that is why it did not shoot good. It was a Win 94 saddle ring carbine that the guy who loaned it to my dad said he bought it at a sale for 5 bucks. I would bet that is a other reason he got it cheap it did not shoot good anymore. It was just dumb luck I figure I killed that deer.

[StarMetal]

One of the things that reloading manuals mention in their little bit of brief history on a cartridge is that the 32 Special Model 94 Winchester had very shallow rifling as compared to a 30-30 and that they didn't shoot good after that shallow rifle had begun to be shot out. Now my friends rifle was in pretty good shape and to tell you the truth is shot darn good for buckhorn sight. Comparing the rifling at the muzzle to another friends rifle in 30-30 it was very obvious the 32 did indeed have shallow rifling.

Joe

[KCSO]

Felix
I am talking where is as is when I extol the 30-30. My other problem is that even though the 32 special should be and probably is theoreticaly more accurate, the platform I have to compare the rifles (Win 94 Carbines) doesn't show me any difference. My eyes are only good for about 2 1/2" at a hundred any more and this doesn't test either cartridge to its potential. I have shot the 30-30 rounds from a scoped 788 and they went under 1 1/2" from the bench. As to pistol bullets, at this time that is where the 30-30 shines in my eyes... I have bullets ranging from 93 to 115 grains readily available to size down for the 30-30. I have to buy custom molds for the 32 special. Tonight I went down and shot a mixture of 30-30 loads off a standing rest at 25 yards on my garage range. The total group for loads ranging from 93 gr. bullets at 750 fps to 170 gr bullets at 1700 was 1.65 inches. The 1700 range loads shot 3/4" higher than the 93 at 750 and the 113's at 1400. All rounds fired will kill a rabbit or squirrel with a head shot at that range. The hunting loads of a 170 Gr at 2100 from my 26" bbl will shoot into 3" at 100 yards and are just 1" lower than the 93's at 25 yards. Now the 32 might shoot the pistol bullets better at 100 yards, but I don't shoot rabbits at that range. I haven't gotten my 44-40 or 45 Colt guns to shoot any two disseperate loads to point of aim at either 25 or 50 so for the one gun, cast bullet man I will have to stick with the 30-30, at least until 32 special brass, bullets, molds ect are available at 30-30 prices. I like all my guns, but if I had to have one, like I did years ago it would be the 30-30.

[w30wcf]

KCSO,
Yes indeed, the good ole' .30W.C.F. / .30-30 is one versatile caliber. Sounds like you have a great selection of cast bullets and loads.

Over the years it has been factory loaded with bullets ranging in weight from 85 grs. full patch (Peters) to the 180 gr. Belted Bullet (Peters). Then there were the 100, 117 and 125 gr. lead bulleted "Short Range" cartridges and the fast stepping 110gr h.p. Super Speed @ 2,720 f.p.s.

The 1 in 12" twist will also stabilize the 311284 (220grs.) very well. Very surprisingly, using H414 powder, my 1894-1994 Winchester Centennial Rifle wll launch this bullet at slightly over 2,000 f.p.s. from it's 26" barrel. My load was tested at a ballistics laboratory and turned up 36,000 cup which is 2,000 cup below SAMMI's MAP of 38,000 cup.

In addition to being very versatile, it is one very efficient cartridge.

Long live the .30-30!

w30wcf

[beagle]

Well fellers, I like them both and the .35 Remington as well...and the .348 Winchester and the .32-40.......... You might say that I like levers..period.

The .30/30 is probably more reloader friendly than the remainder of the lever calibers due to our ranges being full of free brass, the abundance of good moulds and the abundance of good loading data. Just like all of the "medium" cartridges, it's friendly on the shoulder. I bought my first one in 1964 and it was used (a M94). The house hasn't been without one since and I don't plan for it to be until I'm gone./beagle

[Bass Ackward]

The 32 special 35-55, 35 remington and the other lever gun calibers don't hold a candle to the 30-30 for all around use.

Wow. This covers a lot of territory. If the argument is limited to commercially available products, then 30s alway win.

When compared to a larger bore for hunting, they always lose.

[jh45gun]

Well I do not know about that it all depends on what you are hunting for. I like my 45/70 but I like my 30/30 too and since my 45/70 is a roller made into a buffalo gun configuration, the 30/30 is sure a lot easier to use at least in my case. That roller weighs over 12 pounds with a 32 inch octagon barrel.

[KCSO]

I figure all around in hunting covers everything I hunt. Now I like my Henery 22 for squirrels and I like my 86 45-70 for buffalo, but if I HAD to I could and have used the 30-30 on both with complete sucess. I'm surly not saying the 30-30 is perfect for every chore, only that of all the guns I've tried this is the one that covers the broadest range the best. When I only had one rifle hanging over the back door it was a 30-30 and it did the job on everything until I got more and better. In those days I had an insert and shot 32ACP for samll game and 100 grain Speer Plinkers for coyotes and 170's for deer. If I would have had to try for a moose or a black bear I wouldn't have hesitated. Now I have in levers a 73, a 92, an 86 and 2 94's, a Savage99 and a Golden boy 22. If I had to go back to just one I would miss them sorely, but it would be the 94 left hanging on the peg. Now if I could have two guns...

[StarMetal]

Jeff Cooper once said if it wasn't for the possiblity of the magazine tube getting dented and tying up the rifle, that the Mod 94 Win 30-30 is one of the finest battle rifle one could ask for.

Joe

[Griff]

I can't add anything new or unique to what anyone else has said about the .30-30, but it's darn near perfect in my mind. It's only problem is that it was never loaded commercially in BP.
It's versatility reigns supreme over almost any cartridge ever developed. That has a lot to due with the popularity of the '94 carbine. That arm is also just about perfect, it's only flaw being that some idjit decided it had to have an angle eject. Heck my only reason for buying a Marlin was so I could mount a scope on a .30-30 and play with it. :cool:

[w30wcf]

Griff,
It wasn't factory loaded with black powder, but beginning in 1902, the Peters Cartridge Co. offered .30-30 cartridges loaded with Kings Semi Smokeless powder under metal patched bullets.

That cartridge pushed a 170 gr. bullet to 1,450 f.p.s. effectively duplicating the .32-40 b.p. cartridge ballistics. In my testing, it gave very good accuracy, someting I have not been able to replicate with any of the b.p. subs.

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

I have read somewhere, where it was claimed the rifling depth and the twist in the 32 special where made that way specifically for those who wanted to reload the cartridges with BP.

Joe

[JDL]

Well, count me in on a lover of the "little ace" as T. Roosevelt called it! I was a late bloomer because, it was only last year that I got my first one, then added a second. Even so, it has become my favorite rimmed cartridge.
KCSO,
Did you use cast boolits on moose? How about elk?
w30wcf,
I have got to try your load with 311284. Do you flatten the tip, or just use it as a single shot? Seems I remember, Mr. Frank Marshall flattened the tip and used it in a bolt action.-JDL

[w30wcf]

JDL,

For long range shooting (steel buffalo @ 1000 yards & NRA Ram Silhouette @ 500 meters) I seat the bullet to the base of the front driving band and single load them.

To be able to run them through the magazine, one must crimp over the front driving band and flatten the tip like Frank Marshall did. He used that bullet in his "shiney pre war '94" and bolt action rifles interchangeably. Too bad he is no longer with us. He gave me the idea to use that bullet in the .30-30 back in the early 80's and it does work!

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

The 30-30 WCF does MANY things very, very well. Not spectacularly, just efficiently and quietly. The handy carbines the caliber finds a home within are a large reason for their popularity, and adding the efficiency of the 30-30 caliber to that package makes for a fine hunting and defensive tool.

The memories tied up with the 30-30 are what prompts my fondness for the caliber. I took my first deer with a 94 x 30-30 at age 13. This remains the longest shot I've made on a deer to date, ~125 yards. The 30-30 was the first rifle caliber I cast boolits for, although the 223 and 308 beat it to the reloading bench by a couple years. Just this week I used a Win 94 in 30-30 in the Burrito Match--and thanks to very bad days for my fellow shooters, the old trienta-trienta prevailed.

The angle-eject action in the Win 94, the designated hitter in the American League, and free substitution in football ruined their respective venues.

[KCSO]

I have never personally killed a moose with my 30-30. I did do some 30-30 reloads years ago that were used on moose , but they were jacketed loads. My cast loads have done in a couple of balck bear in Minnesota, but since they didn't go over 250 lbs that wasnt much of a test. The loads went to a local who was just killing bears for meat and both were one shot behind the ear at about 25-35 yards, no bullet recovered. These were 170 gr from my 31141 cast from w/w and pused at 2000fps with W/W 748. Just to be different I am going to either use the 30-30 or the 30-40 for buffalo this year.

[StarMetal]

KSCO

That 410 pound black bear they killed two seasons ago by my house was shot with a 30-30 Model 94 Winnie. Jacketed bullet though. He was shot out of the tree and was dead before he hit the ground.

Joe

[JDL]

I have read somewhere, where it was claimed the rifling depth and the twist in the 32 special where made that way specifically for those who wanted to reload the cartridges with BP.

Joe

I've heard that same rumor Joe, but I wonder if that really was the case, since the BP .32-40 was available?-JDL

[JDL]

KSCO,
Please post results after your buffalo hunt.

When I tested boolits this week for penetration and expansion, I found it
intresting that the RCBS 30-180 FN out of my .30-30( velocity 1786 fps) outperformed, by a small margin, a 180 jacketed load out of my '06.-JDL

[w30wcf]

From Winchester’s January 1902 catalog:

“The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, which we have just perfected, is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen, for a smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester (.30-30) and not yet so powerful as the .30 U.S. Army (.30-40), which could be reloaded with black powder and give satisfactory results. The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge meets all of these requirements.

Loaded with Smokeless powder and a 165 gr. bullet, it has a muzzle velocity of 2,057 foot seconds.

With a charge of 40 grs. of black powder, the .32 Winchester Special develops a velocity of 1,385 foot seconds, which makes it a powerful black powder cartridge .”

w30wcf

[JDL]

Well, I guess that pretty well clears up the "rumor", huh. I guess the .32-40 was on a downhill slide even then.-JDL

[StarMetal]

One of the places I read that about the 32 special was in an old reloading manual.

Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal--No wonder you shoot almost nothing but one hole groups. Someone shot a 410 pound black bear out of a tree and you were able to do a mid air autopsy and determine he was dead before he hit the ground. That requires speed and a steady hand I'd think.

[StarMetal]

I'll tell ya Ray, when the bear hit the ground it knocked the corn out of him...literally. He had just recently been through a large cornfield and had himself a fiest. His teeth were as yellow as a dandilion flower. Looked really strange, those big yellow teeth against that black fur.

Joe

[Nrut]

"30-30 The most versatile caliber"?.... I would think the answer to that would be determined by where you hunt and the game you hunt most often.....If shooting only cast bullets I would choose something larger than a .30 cal.to hunt in my neck of the woods...........mic

[jh45gun]

"30-30 The most versatile caliber"?.... I would think the answer to that would be determined by where you hunt and the game you hunt most often.....If shooting only cast bullets I would choose something larger than a .30 cal............mic

Well the 5 point buck and the large doe I shot last fall using my 308 and cast bullets found out it was a deadly combination. The load I was using 19 grains of 2400 and a 150 grain cast bullet did the job which I am sure equaled 30/30 type loads. The doe was a one shot kill the buck was I am sure severly wounded as it did not go far but I put a insurance one in the neck to be sure. I would not hesitate to work up a load with cast bullets for my 30/30 after seeing what they did in my 308 using a mild load. Jim

[Cliff]

I remember the article Frank Marshall did on this bullet in the 30-30. He would flatten the nose in the bullet sizer to be able to achieve the length that would work through a leveraction. He did seat the gas checked base slightly below the base of the neck but he was using either 4831 or 4350 powder in a very compressed charge. He felt this pushed the bullet into the bore ahead of the flame wall and prevent gas cutting on the base. They worked well for me doing this as well. Also Old West moulds designed and makes a bullet Frank Marshall talked about and eventually got from Old West. It is a 200 grain, very blunt nose design. I have one and it is the maximum length for the 30-30, but sure shoots nice. I think Old West called the B.O.W.M. bullet, meaning the Bench or Woods Marshall bullet. Very nice mould only cast about 190 grains from my alloy. ATB

[Cliff]

I have found that there are a few makers that make some really nice bullet moulds for these rifles. Paul Eagan being the one I like. They will shoot very well with cast if all is well with the rifle. As for thin or light rifling being the culprit for poor accuracy and shorter barrel life, I believe poor barrels are a result of improper cleaning, the cleaning rods would wear the rifling at the muzzle. Some I saw were almost oval shaped from excessive rubbing of a cleaning rod in the barrel. Sometimes this can be fixed, but I think the 35-30 is a better solution. Have a good holiday.

[tracker]

This is a must read on the 30-30. It is by far the best written article I have ever read on the 30-30. Yes, It has jacketed bullets in the article but none the less, it is a great read by a great gun writer named Mic McPherson. Start up the printer.

http://levergun.com/articles/3030_Rifle.htm

Tracker

[MTWeatherman]

...and to add balance to the thread, here's one of the best articles I've seen on the .32 Special....by the same author.

http://www.levergun.com/articles/special.htm

KCSO, I grant you that bullet choice makes the 30-30 more versatile, but that hardly detracts from the fine performance this cartidge delivers on a 170-180 grain bullet.

Count me one of the .32 Special fans. My RCBS mould yields a 178 grain bullet with my alloy, the load over 2100 fps out of a '94 carbine and under 2.5 " at 100 yds. That's as good as these old eyes can shoot iron sights (agree with you there also KCSO) so I don't know the full accuracy potential of the load. However, with results like that, I see no need to use a different bullet. That's a top cast bullet hunting load for my purposes and I wouldn't recognize a more accurate bullet if I found it. Yes, it would be nice to have a lighter bullet for plinking, but the RCBS "plinks" too.

I've always felt that the reason that the .32 Special gained a reputation for poor accuracy was the use of old 8mm (the pre '98 .318 size) bullets in commercial loadings for the cartridge. It could also explain why Marlin went to a .318 barrel in their rifles. Mic found some of those loadings and discussed his finding in this article.

Also, the idea that the .32 Special's twist is too slow is a false statement for all commercial loadings for the cartidge. You'd need a custom mould to get anything over 180 gr. The 1 in 16 is actually the ideal twist for a 170 grain bullet...a twist calculator will confirm that. The 30-30 is actually faster than necessary for the vast majority of uses...granted it allows a 220 grain bullet but I doubt that you'll find many reloaders using it.

Yes, the .32 Special has shallower lands than the 30-30 (.003 rather than .004). However, the slower twist still allows a firm grip on the bullet. Although an argument can be made that the .32 barrel will wear out faster, that won't happen with cast bullets in your lifetime.

[jh45gun]

...and to add balance to the thread, here's one of the best articles I've seen on the .32 Special....by the same author.

http://www.levergun.com/articles/special.htm

KCSO, I grant you that bullet choice makes the 30-30 more versatile, but that hardly detracts from the fine performance this cartidge delivers on a 170-180 grain bullet.

Count me one of the .32 Special fans. My RCBS mould yields a 178 grain bullet with my alloy, the load over 2100 fps out of a '94 carbine and under 2.5 " at 100 yds. That's as good as these old eyes can shoot iron sights (agree with you there also KCSO) so I don't know the full accuracy potential of the load. However, with results like that, I see no need to use a different bullet. That's a top cast bullet hunting load for my purposes and I wouldn't recognize a more accurate bullet if I found it. Yes, it would be nice to have a lighter bullet for plinking, but the RCBS "plinks" too.

I've always felt that the reason that the .32 Special gained a reputation for poor accuracy was the use of old 8mm (the pre '98 .318 size) bullets in commercial loadings for the cartridge. It could also explain why Marlin went to a .318 barrel in their rifles. Mic found some of those loadings and discussed his finding in this article.

Also, the idea that the .32 Special's twist is too slow is a false statement for all commercial loadings for the cartidge. You'd need a custom mould to get anything over 180 gr. The 1 in 16 is actually the ideal twist for a 170 grain bullet...a twist calculator will confirm that. The 30-30 is actually faster than necessary for the vast majority of uses...granted it allows a 220 grain bullet but I doubt that you'll find many reloaders using it.

Yes, the .32 Special has shallower lands than the 30-30 (.003 rather than .004). However, the slower twist still allows a firm grip on the bullet. Although an argument can be made that the .32 barrel will wear out faster, that won't happen with cast bullets in your lifetime.

True you may not wear out the bore with cast if YOU have it but what about getting one in good shape where the bore is not already shot. I have looked at several older 32 specials in the past year or two that have hit the local gun shop and the bores on them were down right worn out. Now I am not saying their is not any good ones out there to be had I am sure there are but compared to the 30/30's of the same vintage the 30/30's seem to have better bores. Jim

[MTWeatherman]

"True you may not wear out the bore with cast if YOU have it but what about getting one in good shape where the bore is not already shot. I have looked at several older 32 specials in the past year or two that have hit the local gun shop and the bores on them were down right worn out. Now I am not saying their is not any good ones out there to be had I am sure there are but compared to the 30/30's of the same vintage the 30/30's seem to have better bores. Jim"

Jim:
You raise a very valid point. The .32 Special was discontinued in 1973 which means the newest rifle is over 30 years old and most much older. I was lucky in that I inherited my Dad's .32 of 1950 vintage with less than 300 rounds through it. It's got a pristine barrel and I intend to keep it that way with cast bullets. You could buy a brand new 30-30 if you wish so there's no problem with finding good bores on that one.

If I had a choice between a .32 Special and a 30-30 of decentl bore quality , my preference would be the .32 as I truly feel it is one of the most cast-friendly cartidges available. However, if I couldn't find a quality .32 (I grant you it might be tough to do), I'd pick the 30-30 as it does a good job in its own right. Another option would be to rebarrel a 30-30 to .32 Special although as KCSO pointed out, you might notice enough improvement to justify the expense. I notice on a previous thread on this forum that some planned to do exactly that.

And...you never know, they may bring out a limited run in .32 Special like they did with the .25-35.

[w30wcf]

MTWeatherman,

Yes, the .32 Winchester Special is special for sure. Unfortunately there are not the bullet options available for the .32 as their is for the .30.

A friend of mine has an old WInchester and another friend has an old Marlin in that chambering. Both use a variation of current 8MM bullets for a larger variety of options.....single loaded of course. The 125 gr. 8MM bullet at 2,600 f.p.s. does a nice job on varmints.

w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

Pretty good thread here!

I would have to say that all of the Winchester and Marlin rounds spun from the parent 38-55 Marlin & Ballard casing make very good "boiler rooms" for hunting cartridges. The 25-35/25-36 is capable of very fine accuracy, the game-taking efficiency of both the 30-30 and 32 Special is proven many times over, and the 38-55's accuracy and harvesting potential is undeniable. Add in the 32-40, and you have a family of very fine calibers for range and field, especially if cast boolits are the chosen projectile. The jury may still be out on the 219 Zipper, though.

[jethrow strait]

Love that case for several cast boolit shooters, a 7-30 Waters, a 32-Special, a 32-4o, and a 38-55 at the moment. Never done much for me in a lever 30-30, ceptin a forkhorn jumped out of heavy snow and manzanita north of Prescott some twenty years ago. Seems like a real specialized cartridge to me. But then, Arizona aint Minnesotta. Do have two 30-30s still, neither is a a lever gun, ones a bolt and the other an old single shot, both are extremely accurate with cast boolits. jethrow

[Nrut]

Well the 5 point buck and the large doe I shot last fall using my 308 and cast bullets found out it was a deadly combination. The load I was using 19 grains of 2400 and a 150 grain cast bullet did the job which I am sure equaled 30/30 type loads. The doe was a one shot kill the buck was I am sure severly wounded as it did not go far but I put a insurance one in the neck to be sure. I would not hesitate to work up a load with cast bullets for my 30/30 after seeing what they did in my 308 using a mild load. Jim

Hi jh45....Looks like to me you just made a good case for the .308 as "The Most Versatile Caliber"...It does everything the 30-30 does AND what the .308 does....for you...for where and what "you" hunt....If we are allowed to bring jacketed bullets into this little exersize then the .308 in a M88,Sav.99 or BLR would work quite nicely for what "I" (and most people) in this area hunt...as an all around rifle....But if we are talking cast bullets only then in my opinion there are better choices for "this" area than the 30-30 or the .308......I don't pretend to tell you what's best for you because I have'nt got a clue what you hunt and how you like to hunt your game..Do you understand where I'm coming from or would you like to hear a story about the little .22RF??(muskrat and moose same day with ".22 shorts" now that's VERSATILE!!!)......I stand by my original post.....cheers mic

[StarMetal]

Not many calibers have the firepower and easy recoil in an extremely light and handy rifle as a 30-30 Win or Marlin. In a light rifle a 308 isn't exactly a powderfuff in recoil

Joe

[Nrut]

Not many calibers have the firepower and easy recoil in an extremely light and handy rifle as a 30-30 Win or Marlin. In a light rifle a 308 isn't exactly a powderfuff in recoil

Joe

That's true Joe...I would be one of the first to say the I'm a "Jam Tart" when it comes to recoil but when I'm hunting I don't notice recoil...what about you?...If you want 30-30 recoil load down to 30-30 levels just like jh45 did when he shot those deer...Then if you insist on using a .30cal (.308 with cast bullets) and you are hunting moose in grizzly and black bear country like here where I live,then the heck with recoil I'm going to load that little .308 up with a heavy bullet at .308 levels....But you know what how about a 61/2# BLR in .358....... A .356,.375 Win. or a Marlin guide gun ?.. If you cast your own bullets you can create loads for these cals. from grouse to grizzly....I'm not trying to be contrary here ....I'm saying "the most versatile cart." depends on where you hunt, what you hunt for and how you hunt....This assume's that you cast your own bullet's and reload which we all do ..right?....and really does it matter?....you and I could live in the same area where the only game was deer, hogs and turkeys....You may choose a 30-30 and I may choose a my little Rossi .357 mag. or B-92 in .44 mag. and we would both do just fine and think that we each had the most versatile rifle....and we would!.......cheers mic

[StarMetal]

Well I just mentioned that 308 recoil because it absolutely amazes me how much it has in a light rifle, yet the gunscribes already refer to it as a pussycat. Yeah, as compared to what..a 460 Weatherby? I have a round which they claim is mild and that's the 7mm-08. It has a little snap to it, albeit I'm shooting it in a Sako mannlicher carbine that weight 7 lbs with the scope, slings, and rifle loaded.

I know of two incidents of where a 308 failed miseraly. One is a fellow hunting moose shot a moose sort of facing him and his friend and the bullet ricocheted off the moose's shoulderblade and came right back and went through his friends legs. Another is a guy shot a grizzley in the neck with a 180 softpoint and after the bear was slain by another bigger caliber rifle the 180 gr 308 slug was found fully mushroomed in the neck fur of the bear still inches from his hide. When I lived in PA I saw too many whitetail deer lost to this round, NOT because it was inadequate, but because it didn't expand at all and the deer went a very long ways before bleeding out. My best friend, who loves the 308, solved the problem by loading bullets for the 30-30 in his 308. This was years ago so maybe now they match bullets up to caliber better then in those days. Don't get me wrong, I think the 308 is a neat little round and I love the family it spawn, as I have almost all of them except the 358 win, which was a super good round that just didn't get the fare it deserved.

Joe

[Nrut]

Well I just mentioned that 308 recoil because it absolutely amazes me how much it has in a light rifle, yet the gunscribes already refer to it as a pussycat. Yeah, as compared to what..a 460 Weatherby? I have a round which they claim is mild and that's the 7mm-08. It has a little snap to it, albeit I'm shooting it in a Sako mannlicher carbine that weight 7 lbs with the scope, slings, and rifle loaded.

I know of two incidents of where a 308 failed miseraly. One is a fellow hunting moose shot a moose sort of facing him and his friend and the bullet ricocheted off the moose's shoulderblade and came right back and went through his friends legs. Another is a guy shot a grizzley in the neck with a 180 softpoint and after the bear was slain by another bigger caliber rifle the 180 gr 308 slug was found fully mushroomed in the neck fur of the bear still inches from his hide. When I lived in PA I saw too many whitetail deer lost to this round, NOT because it was inadequate, but because it didn't expand at all and the deer went a very long ways before bleeding out. My best friend, who loves the 308, solved the problem by loading bullets for the 30-30 in his 308. This was years ago so maybe now they match bullets up to caliber better then in those days. Don't get me wrong, I think the 308 is a neat little round and I love the family it spawn, as I have almost all of them except the 358 win, which was a super good round that just didn't get the fare it deserved.

Joe

Boy that moose hunting incident must have been exciting for everyone...can you image? that must have hurt....That could be a problem with the .308 cal. because you have rifles chambered from the .300 Sav. up to the Lazzarroni "whatever" using the same bullets...course now a days they have "hard",med and soft bullets for that cal. so if you use your head you should be able to match your bullet to rifle and game....I have a little Sav. Scout in .308 and use 150gr. Rem. bulk/ RL15 which shoots very well in this rifle and the recoil isn't bad..would use that load on deer or black bear but it stays home most of the time....I agree with you about the .358 and will either get a switch barrel for my Sav. or a BLR in that cal. one of these day's....That Sako 7-08 sounds neat at 7 lbs...I have a Husky LWT. in 7X57 that weighs 7 1/2 # with a scope and shoot 140gr. bullets with it....doesn't kick bad at all and with premium bullets I would tackle anything with the 140's.... but wouldn't hunt grizz. with them...Don't have time for them anyway.....cheers mic

[waksupi]

Tell us the mouse to moose story.

[jh45gun]

Joe I have heard folks badmouth the 308 for years and believed it until I figured out most of them were 06 shooters and thought the 308 could not hack it. I beleved them until I bought one in my Encore pistol. Nothing wrong with it thats for sure and I have killed 4 deer with it so far 3 out of the 4 were one shot kills. Two were with factory Rem 150 grain Corelocts and 2 with cast. THe only reason I used the cast was I had them already loaded and the gun sighted in for them. I had loaded some jacketed in the past and they were hotter than factory and they gave me a flinching problem so loaded up the cast to cure the flinch. Well it did and I also found that it made a decent deer load as well. Not saying I will not use my 30/30 again or some other rifle but the 308 with cast is pleasant to shoot and accurate. This fall though I think my 6.5n Swede Scout rifle may get the nod. Jim

[StarMetal]

Well I wasn't exactly bad mouthing it, merely pointing out some of it's early year problems, which now have been overcome or de-mythed. I said it spawned a fine family of cartridges too as the parent cartridge.

Joe

[MTWeatherman]

MTWeatherman,

Yes, the .32 Winchester Special is special for sure. Unfortunately there are not the bullet options available for the .32 as their is for the .30.

A friend of mine has an old WInchester and another friend has an old Marlin in that chambering. Both use a variation of current 8MM bullets for a larger variety of options.....single loaded of course. The 125 gr. 8MM bullet at 2,600 f.p.s. does a nice job on varmints.

w30wcf

Yes the .30s always win in the versatility contest...lots of bullet selection there. The .32s, both the .32 Special and 8mm, suffer from a lack of choices in the bullet category. What 125gr. 8mm bullet is your friend using?

It hasn't always been that way. I still have my first Lyman cast handbook... old #1 circa 1958. It lists no less than 7 bullets for the .32 Special and .32 Remington. There is loading data for 4 different weights for the .32 Special...a 115 gr plain base and 135, 160, and 180 grain gas checks. I just wish I had some of those moulds...I don't.

My first loads developed for the .32 Special were actually with an 8mm bullet...the 165 gr. 323470. I did the work with that bullet about 40 years ago when I purchased it for an 8mm and thought I'd try it in the .32 Special as well. It worked well...was able to get much better accuracy with the .32 than the 8mm at the higher velocities. However, I don't load it for the .32 anymore. Its a round nose so makes a poor hunting bullet and it isn't light enough to make a true "plinker".

To this day, that old 8mm won't do well with accuracy as I push much past 1600 fps. I blame it on the 1-91/2 inch twist but the bore has seen better days as well.

[jh45gun]

Well I wasn't exactly bad mouthing it, merely pointing out some of it's early year problems, which now have been overcome or de-mythed. I said it spawned a fine family of cartridges too as the parent cartridge.

Joe

Did not mean to imply that you were badmouthing it personally but your post reminded me of the stories I had heard when younger about folks that did like I said mostly 3006 fans. Jim

[StarMetal]

I didn't take it that way. Hey, but you know what? The 308 had a heck of alot higher operating pressure from the get go then the 30-06. So if we just concider modern 30-06 and load it up to the higher (and I might add safe pressure) pressure the 06 blows the doors a 308 with any weight bullet. There's just no way the smaller cased 308 is going to be the bigger cased 06. We all know that rounds like the 270 and the 25-06 are loaded to higher pressures and they aren't anything but 06 necked down. The 308 boys know this too. Now I bet that sounds like the old argues back then huh?

Joe

[jh45gun]

Well it really does not matter to me about all that high power I am a confirmed cast user now for all my rifles and they will be about 30/30 vel or slower. I feel there is no need to hot rod any cast shooting I do so loads with 2400 will work fine for me with all my shooting. The only rifle I plan to load at moderate loadings with Jacketed bullets is my 6.5 Swede because of what I have read here about problems getting a good load to shoot ect. I figure why bother with it as I have 4 30 cal rifles to shoot one 30/30 a K31 and 2 Mosins A 8mm Turk Mauser with a mint bore and a 45/70 Rolling Block built on a Remington 1902 frame and a 7mm Spanish Mauser if I decide to cast for that. So most of the guns I will be shooting will all be about in the same ball park for velocity and power except my 45/70 of course is throwing more lead. :) OOps forgot what started this conversation my 308 Encore well I may just shoot some jacketed hunting loads in that as I have plenty of 30 cal rifles to shoot cast in now. Then and again them cast loads are sure easy to shoot in a pistol. Jim

[Nrut]

Tell us the mouse to moose story.

Hi waksupi....Actually I was hunting muskrats for their fur on a river back in the late 70's ..I was using a Folbot which is a fabric over frame kayak/canoe kind of thing....about 300 meters down river I spied a 2 year old moose coming up river along the bank...then he headed up the bank and disappeared into the bush from my angle...knowing there was a bench there that he may bed down on I drifted/paddled to where it went into the bush and nosed the Folbot into the bank and started squeaking on my wrist like a mouse squeak that you would use on a close range coyote call...(don't ask me why,it was the only thing I could think of)....sure enough there he was bedded down and he got up and looked directly at me...plink went the little .22 short....one shot between the looker's and he was dead before I could get to him...I have shot alot of cattle with a .22 long rifle for butcher and he wasn't any farther away at less than 20 meters so felt it was an easy shot....I suppose in some areas where small game is your most sought after quarry the rimfire would be the most versatile cart.....here all we have are hares and grouse and for the most part they aren't hunted as there are so few of them...but I still shoot my .22 the most often....as my CZ 452 will shot into 5/8's inch at fifty meters with Winchester power points all day long... if forced to... I think one could take large game at 50 meters from a rest if there was plenty of time for the shot....and hopfully the animal doesn't move at the trigger break.....mic

[carpetman]

I would not bad mouth the 30-30. Anything I could say it wont do---there are over a hundred years of stories could be told that say yes it will. I do think it would be a sad state of affairs if all this time later we have not improved somewhere along the line. There are a good number on this board that were on Shooters going back to 1998 that I know of. Wouldn't it be pathetic to say during that time havent learned a thing and nothing has improved? That's just a drop in the bucket for the time the 30-30 has had to be improved on. I know for example,there are bolt action,single shots etc 30-30's that will shoot pointed bullets. I do believe that such a round would be a Murphy's Law deal akin to keeping pet rattlesnakes---somehow it will get into a gun not meant for it-----another post. For the sake of comparison,using a manual like Hornadys or Sierra that has charts,compare a pointed bullet of same weight and velocity to a 30-30 type bullet. For years I heard it said the round nose and blunts do better in brush. One of the major bullet makers did an extensive test and their results were just the opposite???? Now the 30-06 is newer and has not had as much test of time and time to be improved on,so it is in a different catagory.