FWL bans lead

[Bad Water Bill]

I just got this from a friend. Not sure if it is true or not BUT.

Federal Agency Bans Lead Ammunition for Depredation Hunting of Birds
Citing the need to prevent lead toxicity hazards to wildlife, the Federal Government's primary wildlife management agency, the U.S. Fish and Wildife Service (FWS) has banned the use of lead ammunition for hunting nuisance birds. The decision was published by FWS as a final rulemaking action in the Federal Register.

American Bird Conservancy (ABC), the nation's leading bird conservation organization, expressed support for the decision in a letter sent today to Fish and Wildlife Service Acting Director Rowan W. Gould.

Depredation orders are issued by FWS to allow the killing of migratory birds such as crows, grackles, and blackbirds which are causing damage to public or private property, pose a health or safety hazard, or are damaging agricultural crops or wildlife. This new regulation will require the use of non-toxic ammunition in the control of these nuisance birds.

"We're very supportive of FWS in siding with wildlife on this issue. Depredation hunting tends to leave

large amounts of highly toxic lead ammunition on the ground that non-target birds and other wildlife

consume while mistaking it for food. Those birds or other wildlife will either die agonizing deaths

shortly thereafter or suffer severe illness for a prolonged period. We have had many discussions with

FWS about using non-toxic shot for all agency operations and we are very glad they have made this

decision" said Dr. Michael Fry, one of the world's leading avian toxicologists and Director of

Conservation Advocacy for ABC.

ABC had been one of the leaders in a group that had petitioned the Environmental Protection Agency on August 3, 2010 to ban lead ammunition used for hunting and lead fishing gear because of the toxic threats they posed to wildlife. EPA responded that they did not have the authority to regulate lead ammunition, though Congressional legislative history records document that they did have such authority. EPA then later denied the fishing gear portion of the petition saying that evidence of impacts from fishing gear were being addressed by some States, and national regulations would be overly burdensome. In the original petition, ABC and the other petitioners presented almost 500 scientific studies that documented widespread lead impacts to wildlife that result in the lead-poisoning deaths of up to millions of birds each year in the United States.

"This decision is important not only because it will keep a highly toxic substance from being strewn across the landscape, but it will also prevent birds or other wildlife that might scavenge the remains of lead-shot nuisance birds, such as Bald Eagles, bobcats and raccoons from becoming innocent mortality victims as well," Fry added."

"The paint industry got the lead out, the gasoline industry got the lead out, the toy industry got the lead out, the home building industry got the lead out of plumbing, and even the automotive industry most recently is getting the lead out of the wheel weights on cars. The lethal impacts of lead in our environment are so well documented and accepted by the science and health community that any deliberate release of lead into a public environment should be viewed as unacceptable. The Federal Government has shown concern for human impacts of lead - we are very glad they are showing the same level of concern for wildlife," Fry said.

American Bird Conservancy (www.abcbirds.org) conserves native birds and their habitats throughout the Americas by safeguarding the rarest species, conserving and restoring habitats, and reducing threats while building capacity of the bird conservation movement. ABC is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit membership organization.

[Jim]

Oh, for cryin' out loud! Next thing you know, they'll outlaw lead fishin' sinkers and then tell the automotive industry that they can't use lead in batteries anymore.
I wanna see 'em go out on an industrial construction site and tell the plumbing contractor he can't use lead anymore to pour the joints on floor drains and flush mount clean outs.

[bowenrd]

Kinda weird, not a word mentioned about lead shot for Upland game birds.

[Mumblypeg]

Kinda weird, not a word mentioned about lead shot for Upland game birds.

Shoooooo! Quiet! Don't worry that will be next. At one time it was believed that coffee was toxic. No one has yet to actually show me proof that all that lead has killed anything that wasn't shot with it. But then I never knew any babies that died from eating paint either... I can't swear that it does't happen, I just myself have not seen proof. Cars on the other hand... kill alot of people and everthing else. I think that I have enough lead to last me my life and I'm getting old and I really don't care what they think and I'm just gona keep shooting lead. I'm a COB (although I didn't join the club yet) so I 'm just starting to laugh at the a**holes. How are they gona stop me? Yea I was a cop fof 35 years but they just keep on passing stupid laws that don't do any good and can't be enforced. Rant over... for now.

[Bad Water Bill]

Kinda weird, not a word mentioned about lead shot for Upland game birds.

Give them a little more time and they will get there.

JIM Check some of your fishing lure and spinner packages. "CAUTION THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS LEAD ETC." They are scareing the sheeple so much at every level with the magic word LEAD. Sure wish they would TEACH the sheeple that our lead is a natural mineral that has been around for longer than we have. There are many chemical compounds man has created that are far more deadly to all creatures than natural minerals.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Saw em at Bass Pro Shop. What was once lead fishing sinkers are now Tungsten.Robert

[Ickisrulz]

Shoooooo! Quiet! Don't worry that will be next. At one time it was believed that coffee was toxic. No one has yet to actually show me proof that all that lead has killed anything that wasn't shot with it. But then I never knew any babies that died from eating paint either... I can't swear that it does't happen, I just myself have not seen proof. Cars on the other hand... kill alot of people and everthing else. I think that I have enough lead to last me my life and I'm getting old and I really don't care what they think and I'm just gona keep shooting lead. I'm a COB (although I didn't join the club yet) so I 'm just starting to laugh at the a**holes. How are they gona stop me? Yea I was a cop fof 35 years but they just keep on passing stupid laws that don't do any good and can't be enforced. Rant over... for now.

Ingestion of lead by children causes developmental issues not death. It is a fact gleaned after many decades of serious study.

[Dan Cash]

Ingestion of lead by children causes developmental issues not death. It is a fact gleaned after many decades of serious study.

While this is true, I wonder how true. The world grew up drinking water from lead pipes, eating from lead/pewter plates and from ceramic and tile ware containing large amounts of lead. DaVinchi, Coperincus, Mercator to name but a few of the great minds in history grew up inundated with lead intake. Guess we did not get any development from them.

[steg]

If thpeople that are believing this dribble out there dont soon get their heads out of their nether negions and vote all those bleeding heart libs out of office, this country is in for a very rude awakening. Until now all of the lead that has been shot by our fathers and our forefathers hasn't caused any problems that I'm aware of, and I don't see any problems with it in the future either. Our biggest problem is that people that think the way that we do are probably way less than 5% of the population of this country (my guestimate)talk about swimming upstream trying to fight this battle, I'ts more like swimmimg up a waterfall, and as much as I hate to say it I think our future is kind of bleak, and the future of this country that I love.............steg

[sargenv]

I did some research and this apparently currently applies only to people with depradation permits for the removal of the species in the list. It doesn't (for the time being) refer to actual hunting seasons.. There is a 4 page write up that you can find by doing a search on "depradation lead shot". That's how I found it.

If you go HERE (http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/RegulationsPolicies/reg2010/Final%20Rule%2050CFRPart21BlackbirdsDecember%20201 0.pdf) you can read it for yourself.

You'll need acrobat reader to actually read it.. likely the newest free reader, Acrobat 9.

[Bullshop]

Is any member of this forum still naive enough to believe other than what we know to be the truth?
The brainwashing of the children that would someday be the adults that run the country started with the likes of Bambi in the 50's.
There is an agenda to disarm us so there is little fear of armed resistance when we the people realize what they the rulers intend to do.
The RKBA is being chipped away from all possible angles and the FEAR OF LEAD is just one of those.
I think we all know that but seem to be able to do little about it.
Sure you can make boolits/bullets from other things but there are many buts involved with that including the one that stops most folks, $.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

There is just one response to such obama inspired tyranny. JOIN, or DIE. BvT

[jcwit]

Ingestion of lead by children causes developmental issues not death. It is a fact gleaned after many decades of serious study.

Meeting and seeing many of the younger folks in the population I've come to the conclusion that many of them have "issues" of one kind or another that need to be addressed. It's possible that some of the issues could be caused from exposure to lead but I doubt it.

This is a fact gleaned after many decades of serious study at WalMart.

[Ickisrulz]

Ingestion of lead by children causes developmental issues not death. It is a fact gleaned after many decades of serious study.

I was just pointing out that children didn't die from lead exposure...but had developmental issues and that this claim was actually based on hard research and medical evaluations.

While the world was filled with lead at one time and there are even cultures today that feed their kids lead as a "home remedy" it's still not good for you. That's why we wash our hands after casting, right?

When it comes to lead the EPA has really tried to limit children's intake to practically zero even though a little ingestion may have no effect for most people.

[giz189]

Meeting and seeing many of the younger folks in the population I've come to the conclusion that many of them have "issues" of one kind or another that need to be addressed. It's possible that some of the issues could be caused from exposure to lead but I doubt it.

This is a fact gleaned after many decades of serious study at WalMart.

jcwit,I have to agree with you. Many of them certainly act as though they have ingested something.:violin:

[Bullshop]

How about that whenever they put any processed food in their mouth they are ingesting toxins. Ever read food labels?

[starmac]

I have always thought that these studys usually went the way the grant money came from, yes even the medical studies. Just in my lifetime several food that were found to be killing have been in later years changed to be the recommended food. It is just me but I don't hold much stock in these studies. They can and did ban lead on these particular birds kinda quietly but it gives them big inroads to further their agenda to all hunting and fishing. If everything that causes harm is so big a problem that it has to be outlawed, how come our population keeps growing by leaps and bounds and I haven't particularly noticed a shortage of birds or other animals either.

[looseprojectile]

Your government has saved the children from being poisoned by lead how come that the incidence of autism has increased so much in the last few decades? Researchers are baffeled.
Maybe the result of eliminating lead is causing this. Who knows? Lets hear it for spending billions of our tax dollars for more research. Tell me more about the Northern Spotted Owl. How about the large buzzards in California. Are they making a miraculous recovery because of the lead ban? Save the children/wildlife at any cost.
Few children nowadays are not in need of special treatment in some way or another. Tell me about vaccinations. Just encourage them to do what they can do.
It is a miracle that I have lived to the ripe old age of seventytwo.
Reading some of this s--t I sometimes wish I had not.
The more that the government does to save the children the worse they become.
Anyone see a pattern here? Conspiracy? Nah. Move along, nothing to see here. All this may be just more unintended results of flawed research.

Life is good

[oldhickory]

Your government has saved the children from being poisoned by lead how come that the incidence of autism has increased so much in the last few decades? Researchers are baffeled.
Maybe the result of eliminating lead is causing this. Who knows? Lets hear it for spending billions of our tax dollars for more research. Tell me more about the Northern Spotted Owl. How about the large buzzards in California. Are they making a miraculous recovery because of the lead ban? Save the children/wildlife at any cost.
Few children nowadays are not in need of special treatment in some way or another. Tell me about vaccinations. Just encourage them to do what they can do.
It is a miracle that I have lived to the ripe old age of seventytwo.
Reading some of this s--t I sometimes wish I had not.
The more that the government does to save the children the worse they become.
Anyone see a pattern here? Conspiracy? Nah. Move along, nothing to see here. All this may be just more unintended results of flawed research.

Life is good

I gotta go along with all of this. Us kids grew up with lead paint, leaded gasoline, lead shot and boolits...And the threat of one heck of a licki'n if we didn't stay on the straight and narrow. Yeah, I see a pattern too-for the worse!

[Jarhead68]

The only "Lead to fear is high speed lead ! what the heck!!

[Hickory]

Your government has saved the children from being poisoned by lead how come that the incidence of autism has increased so much in the last few decades? Researchers are baffeled.

It's been over two decades since they stopped putting lead in gasoline.
That may be the cause for the increase in autism. Not enough lead.

[WonderNine]

And I thought laws were supposed to be passed by Congress, instead of bans decreed by alphabet soup agencies.

[Ickisrulz]

You're all right what does the government know.:) I guess anyone that wants to should go ahead and eat lead, feed it to your kids and grandkids for that matter. I'll go and cut my seat belts out of my car too.

[starmac]

The only "Lead to fear is high speed lead ! what the heck!!

Some of us has been toting some of that around for thirty years or more with no ill effects. Direct injected to the bloodstream too.

[Bad Water Bill]

As I have stated here many times my grandfather carried 9 PB objects inside his person for over 50 years. One of them for over 80 years. He died at age 93. It must have kept lead in the system as my youngest uncle was bourn when he was 64. [smilie=1:

[Ickisrulz]

Metallic lead is fairly inert in living tissue.

[Harter66]

I'm kinda late here but I've at least 1 book that dedicated about 20 full pages to fairly extensive studies in the 30s of lead ingestion by water fowl. A no.6 pellet was used 6 of which resulted in a dead canvase back or pintail in 6 days. I've made a fruitless search for the book in question and do not recall its exact title. I read several "fowl books" during that time ,it was published between 1932-38 by Audubon the guy not the orgaization. Similar information was published in a compiled book ,"hunting ducks and geese"IIRC. Also from about then.with all that said I have no kick with shooting non-toxics in feeding areas and wet lands.out here we often shoot dove,ducks,geese,quail,rabbits,and a rouge pheastant on the same patch of water and on the way to the truck.

[starmac]

It is amazing that there were any ducks left by the time lead shot was banned. I have done a little panning and usually have some lead shot in the pan.

[CLAYPOOL]

When I asked John Anderson Illinois Biologist, (SP) where all the dead ducks + geese were laying, "He said, that they hide in the bushes around pot holes, swamps, etc". I told him that was bulls***, that was were we looked for cripples and decoys. Then he told us that foxes took them.....they got it passed in Illinois + the nation. Step # 1.....

[lwknight]

Oh, for cryin' out loud! Next thing you know, they'll outlaw lead fishin' sinkers and then tell the automotive industry that they can't use lead in batteries anymore.
I wanna see 'em go out on an industrial construction site and tell the plumbing contractor he can't use lead anymore to pour the joints on floor drains and flush mount clean outs.

Its all plastic nowdays. Maybe some union controlled areas are still using lead but thats probably about it.

[lwknight]

Birds will die from eating too many rocks too.
Maybe they can outlaw rocks as well.

[waksupi]

I'm kinda late here but I've at least 1 book that dedicated about 20 full pages to fairly extensive studies in the 30s of lead ingestion by water fowl. A no.6 pellet was used 6 of which resulted in a dead canvase back or pintail in 6 days. I've made a fruitless search for the book in question and do not recall its exact title. I read several "fowl books" during that time ,it was published between 1932-38 by Audubon the guy not the orgaization. Similar information was published in a compiled book ,"hunting ducks and geese"IIRC. Also from about then.with all that said I have no kick with shooting non-toxics in feeding areas and wet lands.out here we often shoot dove,ducks,geese,quail,rabbits,and a rouge pheastant on the same patch of water and on the way to the truck.


Couldn't have been Audubon. He died in 1851.

[Harter66]

I will continue to search for the book its buried in the wreckage of the last move. Ducks and geese of north america , I think that would be the title. Before ii started casting I was a waterfowling fool. 1season I hunted 52 of the 68 days of the combined season. We ate ducks seemed like every night.

No matter "THEY" are going to protect us to death.

[Jim]

Its all plastic nowdays. Maybe some union controlled areas are still using lead but thats probably about it.

Begging your pardon, Sir, and with all due respect, that is not correct. There are many applications on commercial and/or industrial jobs that REQUIRE the use of lead on a frequent basis.
And it's not all plastic these days. Many projects are done to specifications that require material other than PVC. Cast iron is still very much in use and terminal connections require lead for such.
The use of lead is not limited to union jobs, either. I'm recently(2 yrs.) retired from over 30 years as a pipefitter/welder and plumber in the mechanical contracting business. I poured lead joints not two months before I retired and I know many contractors still do because the job specifications require it, not because they choose to.
There are systems and piping methods that will never be replaced by PVC due to the demands of the systems. And there are connection requirements that will never be feasible with any method other than the proper application of a poured and caulked lead joint.

[fixit]

i can't speak for ingested lead, but environmental lead self encapsulates fairly quickly due to oxidation. the oxide itself is highly toxic, but doesn't miugrat easily, from my observations. i, however am not a scientist who has done studies to support this! just an observation, the complaints about range runoff seem to be overblown, confirming my statement. i welcome correction from more knowlegable individuals!

[BrianB]

I can kinda see the Fish and Wildlife's point on depredation. But only in such situations because you would have a high concentration of shot in one area.

My question is "Why now?" Small game hunting and wingshooting is on the decline even more than big game hunting, at least in my area. That said, there is obviously less lead shot going into the environment now than 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago.

Aside from ducks, I have not heard of lead affecting anything else that lives in or near water. I'm not saying there hasn't been an affect, I just have not heard of it. Do fish mistake lead sinkers on the bottom of their habitat for some type of food? Do large amounts of lead dissolve into particles that fish can get into their systems? Never heard of it happening. Yet mercury and other toxins, presumably from industries and agriculture, continue to pollute and little is done unless it threatens a species into the endangered category (or close to it), much like DDT did to the brown pelicans a few years ago.

[starmac]

I have no doubt that a single #6 pellet can, or would kill a duck in 6 days, but I don't belive it was eaten.

[Bad Water Bill]

If I remember correctly the plumbers union is so politically connected here in Crook oops Cook county Illinois that all plumbing MUST be done with STEEL pipe. PVC is not an option in my house. All of the cast iron drains are finished with a lead seal. The last figures I heard was that there were only 5 counties that would NOT allow PVC pipe left in the U S A.

Yes lead will be used here for many many years. The strange thing is that the water line from the city pipe to your house is made out of pure lead and I can not guess how much it would cost to dig up all of the lines that have been installed over the last century. I think if lead was so toxic there should be ZERO population in any major city.

[jcwit]

The problem birds have when it comes to ingested lead be it pellets or whatever is that they have a gizzurd that grinds up their food therebt also grinding up the lead to the point it can be taken into their body causing lead poisoning. Also most birds have an even higher acidic content in their digistive system which further complaints the problem.

Mammals have an entirely different system.

[Harter66]

The fowl thing is that the birds pickup the smooth round stones ,thus shot,when they gravel or are sifting mud for worms etc. I can't vouch for the test methods being 80 years past they may have been force feed.

[Mumblypeg]

Ingestion of lead by children causes developmental issues not death. It is a fact gleaned after many decades of serious study.

Well then, maybe this explains why many of those in Congress have brains that don't function well...:bigsmyl2:

[NSP64]

Everybody just needs to stop hunting.
When the wildlife takes over then they will beg someone to shoot it.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Just another overreaction.
A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING.
ESPECIALLY WHEN NOT ACCOMPANIED WITH WISDOM OR COMMON SENSE.

Of course it MAY be a power grab, inch by inch.:Fire::Fire:

[Trey45]

Everybody just needs to stop hunting.
When the wildlife takes over then they will beg someone to shoot it.

By then you'll have to use an eco friendly, green bio degradeable bullet that uses pixies and rainbows as propellant.

I just myself sick.....

[Harter66]

The book is "Ducks,geese and swans of North America" by F.H.Kortright published 1942 by Stackpole.
As I meantioned I've several books of simular ilk and have trouble keeping them square and true .

There is knowledge in there that will just leave one dumbfounded. Like pacing ducks with a train and 9 iirc subspeices of Canada goose.

I know I can't be alone in having taken sickly wasted birds on Walker Lake , 1 of my blinds I used to get wet in on high water,windy days is 150 yards from the water now . Impling that they've been there for long enough to get sick but still able to fly several 100 yds. I've seen shot in fecal leavings on the rock piles too. Truth be known I'm actually suprized that dove and farm lands weren't included the 1st time around.

[Old Ironsights]

The people who go on about "agonizing deaths" have no more real data than you or I. They are just using cant, hyperbole and anthropomorphizing emotionalism to achieve their objective: elimination of hunting/guns.

There are NO cost effective "non-lead" solutions out there - especially for antique and muzzleloading shotguns. None. This isn't a matter of "costs slightly more" for regular guns either, but "it's utterly unaffordable".

What makes their anti hunting agenda obvious is that if their claims were at all true, they would apply to skeet/trap ranges as well as to wingshooting. The fact that they didn't include skeet/trap ranges in their protests shows that (A) it's about making hunting unaffordable and (B) they didn't want to PO their skeet/trap richie-rich libtard moneybag donors.

[timbuck]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/21/senators-join-battle-lead-ammunition-fishing-tackle/

They are also going after sinkers.

[Bad Water Bill]

If you have purchased ANY fishing equipment in the last 10 years think about the spinners with a warning, "This product contains lead ------------". Almost everything has this label and therefor can be banned. Who will provide the paychecks when we can no longer purchase any hunting OR fishing equipment?

If the NSSA has a figure of over 28 BILLION dollars fron the firearms industry try and figure out how much the fishing industry also contributes to the economy. A simple bass boat is about $40,000 without any bells or whistles. How much does K Mart, Wal mart, Bass pro shop and Cabelas add to the pot.

Ask any of those tree huggers how much EACH person that signed on their petition list is going to have to pay out of their own pocket to make up for ALL of the above moneys lost. Since not 1 in 10 of the U S population will have signed it, at a ROUGH guess you the signee have volunteered to pay $1,860.00 per year for the rest of your life.:bigsmyl2:

Each person involved in these lawsuits should have to sign some sort of an agreement with the IRS to make up the shortfall out of their own pocket.

Let that word get around and there will be ZERO lawyers willing to touch any of these cases.

[mroliver77]

Couldn't have been Audubon. He died in 1851.

He still votes, why can he not write? ;)
Jay

[Harter66]

This thread has been buried a while. I took some time in California a while back ,Macy's has door signs stating lead inside,its terrible stuff,12x18" lead warning signs on the crystal display.

[Bad Water Bill]

He still votes, why can he not write? ;)
Jay

I didn't know he was buried in Crook OOPS Cook County.

[gray wolf]

Fluoride in the tooth past
poison in the vaccines
Ridilin , SSRI drugs,
F D A lobbyist
Poisons in the food
beached whales
beached Dolphins
Millions of dead fish
oil spills
radiation levels
Light bulbs with Mercury
birds falling out of the sky
Aspartame and other brain eating sweeteners
aerial spraying --and if you can't see the chem trails and think there con trails, Think again.
and you want to ban WHAT ? lead shot ?
Please don't use the word democracy any place near me. This was posed to be a free Republic---If we could keep it----( did we ?) I think not.
It's all about control my friends, they keep taking and we keep giving.
Naturally they want the guns, for those that forgot, the second amendment was not so we could go hunting and shoot at paper.
It was to push back a tyrannical gubberment. The guns are the last thing that keeps us a LITTLE free. This is all about chipping away at the outer circle to get to the inside.
It ain't about lead shot, they could care less about a bunch of dead birds.
I care, you care, but they only care about control and dumbing down of the sheep, and they have done a good job of it. We see it as---oh well they are after another thing.
But they look at the whole package, and each little thing they do is part of the hole.
So excuse me Mr. gubberment, don't Pi$$ down my neck and tell me it's rain,
and while your at it please get your dam jack boot off my back.

[Blammer]

Kinda weird, not a word mentioned about lead shot for Upland game birds.

you already have to use steel for migratory game birds such as ducks and geese.

[smoked turkey]

This whole thing is about control. Seems someone gets a little power and they want more. I believe those in government are fearful that they will lose control. It has been said that an armed people are a free people. I agree with gray wolf they don't care about a few dead birds, this is just another horse to ride on the way to more control over our lives. I am gaulled about this "green movement". Especially the florescent (or how ever it is spelled) lights that are being rammed down our throats. The fact that they are filled with mercury and it is also a known hazard to our health, but in this case it fits their agenda so it is ok.

[Bad Water Bill]

Our environmentally friendly? president wants renewable sources of power. WIND FARMS They have been playing with them for OVER FORTY YEARS and still can not make them profitable.

Ask any wind farmer how many THOUSAND dead birds of all types he finds on his farm then convince me they are friendly to the birds that might possibly eat lead shot or boolits.

By the way, for EACH fan planted the farmer looses about 50 bushels of corn.

[wills]

Wind farms don’t have to produce electricity to be profitable.

[Fishman]

Lots of misinformation and paranoia in this thread.

The facts and using common sense are plenty to find problems with some of the approaches environmentalist politicians use.

We should all support policies that improve our environment and reduce our dependence on oil sold by terrorists. Banning lead wheel weights doesnt meet this goal IMHO. Wind and solar power is a must do, I think. Taking the power, literally, out of the hands of politicians and terrorists, how can that be a bad thing?

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
1992 SLICK WILLY (BILL CLINTON to the younger members) started this with an executive order. The same person was behind that as was behind much of what OBAMINATION & his band of Gadianton robbers has done.
I was clued into watching her Hillery & George Soros by Jeff Cooper who did the basic research, back in the 1990's.
Jeff Coopers Chronicles or Gunsite Gossip is a good read.:Fire::Fire: