Swiss 1911

[XBT]

Another interesting variation of the Swiss straight pull rifle is this example of a modified model 1911.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/retiredBT/Swiss1911.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/retiredBT/Swiss308.jpg


The barrel was cut to 22 inches and it was converted to .308 Win. The stock was also cut into sporter configuration. I think this was done by the importer to make the gun more saleable on the American market. There are some who think that the .308 chambering is a bit dicey in the 1911 action, but all I shoot in mine are cast bullets, so it’s not an issue for me. I do know of a similar rifle that has shot thousands of rounds of nato spec. ammo with no problems.

The work was nicely done and the result is a handy light rifle, perfect for cast bullet shooting. The only problem I found with mine is that it shot very high, even with light cast loads, so I had to install a higher front sight. As you probably already know the Swiss 7.5X55 has a .308 bore so it’s easy to load for. The .308 case is similar to the original caliber, so there are no feeding problems.

I use 20 grns. of 2400 behind a RCBS .30-180-SP, the velocity measured at 1825 fps, and the accuracy (for me) is outstanding.

Some day I’ll get a young guy with good eyes to try it off the bench to find out how accurate it really is.

Jim

[waksupi]

It worked out ok for deer hunting. If this thing attaches right, here is a buck I took with a 170 gr. Lee, at around 2250 fps. a few years back. I don't remember the powder right off. I wouldn't be afraid of stoking these actions up pretty hot, personally, and the K31's are reported to be in the 98 Mauser class for strength.

[45 2.1]

They were converted to 308 by using a 1903A3 2 groove barrel that was set back and rechambered also. Very good shooters. My favorite of the Swiss rifles is the K-11. Very svelte and nice handling, accuracy is all that one could want with the RCBS 308-165-SIL.

[C1PNR]

They were converted to 308 by using a 1903A3 2 groove barrel that was set back and rechambered also. Very good shooters. My favorite of the Swiss rifles is the K-11. Very svelte and nice handling, accuracy is all that one could want with the RCBS 308-165-SIL.
Interesting you should mention the K-11. I'm buying a k-11 through a group buy on another forum. Purchase is through a contact/dealer in Switzerland. Anticipate delivery by the end of this year.

I hope it shoots as well as its reputation. Should be a lot of fun shooting against my brother with his AR-15 and/or M1A.:-)

[Herb in Pa]

I recently picked up one of those M1896/11 conversions to 308 Win at a small gunshow. The fellow was toting it around with a set of RCBS dies and some ammo. I got it for the princely sum of $125. I pulled the ammo down and have started to play with loads. It also has a Springfield 2 groove barrel and an old Lstyle M1 carbine rear sight.

[45 2.1]

Interesting you should mention the K-11. I'm buying a k-11 through a group buy on another forum. Purchase is through a contact/dealer in Switzerland. Anticipate delivery by the end of this year.

I hope it shoots as well as its reputation. Should be a lot of fun shooting against my brother with his AR-15 and/or M1A.:-)

C1PNR-
You'll love it. I used the hornady 170 FN meant for the 30-30 in my hunting loads and the RCBS 308-165-SIL cast out of WW and sized .309" with Unique in mine. Very accurate rifles, perhaps moreso with cast than the K-31s.

Herb-
Mine was set up the same as yours except it still had the red bolt knobs.

[Bob S]

Jim:

By the first three digits of your rifle's serial number, I can tell that it is a M96/11, not a "true" 1911. The differences are subtle, but they are different. I have never seen a "true" M1911 "Alpine Sporter" of the 50's/60's, probably because the Swiss had not yet declared the M1911's as surplus. I've never seen one with a Springfield barrel, either, but there is no reason that the action could not be fitted with one. Those noted were probably done by civilian gunsmiths as "private jobs" instead of by the importer en masse.

Here is a pic of my FrankenSchmidt; it started out as a typical 96/11 "Alpine Sporter" with the old Swiss barrel shoterend and set back. It now resides in a K11 military stock, with a slightly modified repro K31 handguard.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/FrankenSchmidt.jpg

Since I took this poor pic, the service sights have been completely removed and a Parker Hale 5E receiver sight is on the back and a Redfield Globe on the front.

This is a 100 yard prone target fired with the Lyman 311672, 13.5 grains 2400, no wad or filler, LC 61 cases and Federal Primers. I could not see all of the shots through my spotting scope, so I just kept firing for "group" instead of score.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/96_11308311672.jpg

That's ten shots into a little less than 2-1/2", but it would have looked alot prettier if I had come down a few clicks on the elevation!

I have another one in somebody's (Herter's maybe) glitzy sporter stock with a Williams FP backsight. Haven't fired that one yet, stay tuned ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Herb in Pa]

45 2.1 - Seems like someone went to a LOT of work in redoing these rifles. The bolt knob on mine is turned aluminum. I have since beadblasted and reblued the action and added a side mount, right now it's in the process of being glass bedded.

[45 2.1]

Herb-
I turned some brass knobs and put a Krag rifle sight on mine. I shoot cast thru it exclusively. It has been a very good rifle, you will enjoy yours.

[XBT]

Bob S,

Thanks for the information on the rifle. Mine also has the original Swiss barrel, just shortened and rechambered to .308.

With my tired old eyes I have a hard time shooting groups as good as the one you posted. I can’t help but wonder what the rifle would do in the hands of someone with younger eyes.

My neighbor has one that was converted to 30-30. It looks a lot like mine, but has a lever that locks the magazine in place. The barrel is marked “.30 W.C.F. SWITZERLAND�, so the conversion was apparently done there. As you might imagine, the rimmed case causes serious feeding problems in a magazine that was designed for rimless.

Jim

[Otony]

Hello all. I have seen two that were converted to .30-30, one of which worked quite well (according to the owner). The other was offered for sale at a Canadian website, Epps, so I have no idea of its functionality or lack thereof. It may still be available, price was $200 CAD if I recall correctly.

Frankly, the idea of one of these converted to .30-30 has always intrigued me, as the possibilty arises of having a great cast bullet cartridge in an unusual rifle. Of course I used to ride a Pederson bicycle from Copenhagen, so my version of a good idea may vary markedly from the rest of you! :rolleyes:

[Four Fingers of Death]

There was an English guy who worked at a gun shop in the early 80s that I used to frequent. He has a swiss straight pull rifle that he got when he lived in Switzerland. He said that you wern't allowed to have military calibres there and he had one converted to 300 Win Mag. Go figure?

I have almost been able to resist buying one of these bluidy rifles, but you guys are making it hard for me.

***** looking rifle though, the sporter looks like an air rifle in the photo, but they are big in the flesh.

[Bob S]

Hello all. I have seen two that were converted to .30-30, one of which worked quite well (according to the owner). The other was offered for sale at a Canadian website, Epps, so I have no idea of its functionality or lack thereof. It may still be available, price was $200 CAD if I recall correctly.

Frankly, the idea of one of these converted to .30-30 has always intrigued me, as the possibilty arises of having a great cast bullet cartridge in an unusual rifle. Of course I used to ride a Pederson bicycle from Copenhagen, so my version of a good idea may vary markedly from the rest of you! :rolleyes:

In general, the Model 1889's were converted to 30-30. That model has the locking lugs all the way to the rear of the locking sleeve so it is not as strong as the Model 1896 and follow. Starting with the Model 1896, the locking lugs were moved to the front of the locking sleeve, and the receiver was stiffened. The lock-up is still not at the front of the bolt assembly, but it is more stable than the rear-lock-up. The Model 1896 rifles were later upgraded to fire the GP-11 cartridge (174 gr FMJBT at about 2650 fps out of the long rifle) (and redesignated Model 96/11 Rifle), while firing that cartridge in the Model 1889 was forebidden except in dire emergency. The 30-30 cartridge is about the right pressure level for the old '89 rifles. In reloading the 7.5x53 cartridge for unmodified M1889 rifles, you can use 30-40 Krag loading data and be safe. The '89 is a difficult one to load for: the original bullet was a heeled paper-patched lead alloy slug with an iron "cap" at the front. Diameter with the paper patching was about .318-.320. I was going to have Dan make up a heeled mould for my '89: at first he said "yes", but later changed his mind. So I'm still searching for an appropriate mould, and coincidently, waiting for a rifle to arrive from Switzerland. I am hoping that the barrel on this one isn't bent (like the one I have at present. :-( )

Any of the unmodified 1911-type rifles (7.5 x 55) are much more "cast friendly" than the K-31. They actually have a throat, and you can find moulds that fit there like OJ's hand in that glove.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[45 2.1]

Any of the unmodified 1911-type rifles (7.5 x 55) are much more "cast friendly" than the K-31. They actually have a throat, and you can find moulds that fit there like OJ's hand in that glove.
Resp'y,Bob S.

Funny that you should say that after all that you posted on Swiss Rifles about cast in the K-31.

[crazy mark]

picture of my 1911? in it's original caliber and my K-31. The 1911 is import stamped 1911 but I know that they aren't always stamped right. Paid less for the 1911 than the K-31.Person I bought it from thought he couldn't get ammo and of course I didn't tell him any different. Mark

[Bob S]

Yes, I have gotten my K-31's to shoot some decent groups and scores with cast, but only with a very few mould designs. Unlike some of the guys here, I have NOT had good results with deep-seated bullets in the 7.5. The Lyman 311672, Lee C312155-2R have done well in the K31 for me; also the Ideal 311291U in one with a worn throat.

The 1911's are more like Springfields ... they will shoot almost anything well, with some groups being "outstanding". This one was fired with a 96/11 a year ago. There are ten shots in there. The load is 311291, 16 grains 2400, FNM cases and Federal primers, 100 yards prone using a U.S. GI sling, service sights set at 600 meters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/Swiss_9611_MSA_Forum_MatchR.jpg

I'll probably never be able to do that again; the more "usual" group is about 2 or a little less". The same rifle also shoot the 200 grain Lee into 2" or less, same powder charge. This is the only rifle I have that will shoot a heavy Lee worth spit.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Scrounger]

Yes, I have gotten my K-31's to shoot some decent groups and scores with cast, but only with a very few mould designs. Unlike some of the guys here, I have NOT had good results with deep-seated bullets in the 7.5. The Lyman 311672, Lee C312155-2R have done well in the K31 for me; also the Ideal 311291U in one with a worn throat.

The 1911's are more like Springfields ... they will shoot almost anything well, with some groups being "outstanding". This one was fired with a 96/11 a year ago. There are ten shots in there. The load is 311291, 16 grains 2400, FNM cases and Federal primers, 100 yards prone using a U.S. GI sling, service sights set at 600 meters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/Swiss_9611_MSA_Forum_MatchR.jpg

I'll probably never be able to do that again; the more "usual" group is about 2 or a little less". The same rifle also shoot the 200 grain Lee into 2" or less, same powder charge. This is the only rifle I have that will shoot a heavy Lee worth spit.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

Nothing wrong with that! I'd classify that as a StarMetal Group for sure.Maybe I'm missing something here, I haven't even fired my K31 yet, but is there good reason we can't simply have a gunsmith open up the throat or leade or whatever so it will accept more common bullets?

[Pb head]

Took the words right out of my mouth Scrounger. That target is a hum-dinger. Just picked up one of the three K31's from the gunsmith tonite. Had an old steel Lyman reciever sight installed. Had another K31 with a Williams but let a buddy talk me out of it. Plan on giving this one a test run in the morning. If I get anything close to Bob S's group I will probably have a heart attack, at least get dizzy. Will try Seaco #315 and Lee 155gr with WC 820 and some Red Dot someone mentioned. Since I have three Swiss rifle's I'll have the peep on one, get around to putting a scope on another, and leave the other as issued. Did I ever say in passing that I like these K 31's.

Pb head

[Scrounger]

I haven't fired the one I have and you guys are so enthusiastic about them, I just ordered another one from AIM. Served three purposes: 1. If I end up really liking these things, I'll have two of them. 2. I don't figure they're going to go down in price in the future. 3. I paid $140 for my first one, just $89.95 for this one, so I'm averaging my cost per down.
By the way, AIM has some of those awful Nagent revolvers in for $80 each and they are C&R guns. Don't know why anyone would want one, but there they are...

[NVcurmudgeon]

Scrounger, The Nagant is such a miserable, cantankerous, piece of Russky iron to load for that the attraction lies in the difficulty. After you've dealt with reloading old .43 Spanish Berdan primed rounds and forming 8mm Nambu from .38 Super, the Nagant presents an irresistible challenge.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Scrounger, The Nagant is such a miserable, cantankerous, piece of Russky iron to load for that the attraction lies in the difficulty. After you've dealt with reloading old .43 Spanish Berdan primed rounds and forming 8mm Nambu from .38 Super, the Nagant presents an irresistible challenge.

Simon Lawrence of Lawrence Ordnance in Sydney has mint Swiss rifles and rebuilt Nagants. its like the mermaids on the rocks, luring me in.
Mick.