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jrkappy
02-09-2011, 03:48 PM
454 Casull.
A lot is posted about getting 110/296 to fire Casull loads. Solutions run from cut down 460 brass to use large pistol primers, reaming out Casull brass to use large pistol primers, magnum load small pistol primers, and just using other powder. So . . . what about enlarging the flash hole in standard Casull brass from what ever is supposed to be standard to the next size up? Has anyone tried this, and if so, what result especially with 110/296. Its a lot easier to enlarge the flash hole then to ream primer pockets or cut down brass.

stubshaft
02-09-2011, 04:10 PM
I have never had an issue with lighting 296/H110 in my Casull. I have and probably always will use Small Rifle primers in it. My usual loads run from 30.5 - 36.0 296 behind a 275 - 300 grain boolit.

peerlesscowboy
02-09-2011, 04:23 PM
I've never had an issue either, using CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers igniting H110 in original Freedom Arms brass.

John C. Saubak

clintsfolly
02-09-2011, 04:40 PM
hi jr and welcome if you open the flash hole you let more pressure back into the primer and will get high pressure signs at lower pressures!! Clint

selmerfan
02-09-2011, 05:12 PM
Never had a problem igniting H110/296 in my Casull barrel either. 28 gr. behind a 320 gr. cast boolit touched off every time. Small rifle of course.

jrkappy
02-10-2011, 12:07 AM
So, do flash hole sizes vary between small primers and large primers? Will blow back really be a problem? Are flash holes that consistent between brands? Given all the posts about this problem on this site, it seems that small primers have push but not enough heat to ignite 110/296 unless there is a max load which I think retards the push allowing the heat to do its job with a small flash hole. Could be mistaken

peerlesscowboy
02-10-2011, 12:35 AM
So, do flash hole sizes vary between small primers and large primers? Will blow back really be a problem? Are flash holes that consistent between brands? Given all the posts about this problem on this site, it seems that small primers have push but not enough heat to ignite 110/296 unless there is a max load which I think retards the push allowing the heat to do its job with a small flash hole. Could be mistaken
Have you had ignition problems? If so, what primers are you using and what's your load? As I recall Freedom Arms specifies using magnum small rifle primers..........that's what I've used in my .454 Casull loads, heavy doses of H110 and 250 to 300 gr bullets, never experienced a problem with ignition.

John C. Saubak

44man
02-10-2011, 09:42 AM
There is only a problem with starting loads until you get close to max, max or just over. This was the problem, loads can't be worked for accuracy without sticking a boolit. You are stuck with almost one load.
However, accuracy increased when working loads and even a max load shot much better.
This is not an issue at all with other powders like 2400, etc.
.460 brass works great but is expensive and a lot of work to cut down. I made a cutter to open pockets in .454 brass and it works like a charm, a minute a case.
I found even a standard LP primer would ignite a starting load of 296 but was not as accurate as a mag primer.
I tested some loads to over max with 296 to what should have been 55,000 psi using the Fed 155 without any pressure signs or a flat primer.
DO NOT OPEN THE FLASH HOLES!

peerlesscowboy
02-10-2011, 11:10 AM
If memory is correct the reason for the small primer pockets in the .454 Casull brass is to make a stronger case head to help contain the significantly higher working pressures of these high performance loads as compared to other handgun cartridges. Again..........assuming I'm not just having a "senior moment" here; max pressure for the .454 is 60,000# as compared to for example 40,000# for the .44 magnum.
Was the small primer pocket thing just sales hype?

John C. Saubak

bowenrd
02-10-2011, 11:56 AM
hi jr and welcome if you open the flash hole you let more pressure back into the primer and will get high pressure signs at lower pressures!! Clint

Pressure is pressure no matter the size of the flash hole. A larger flash hole will not generate more pressure. 100 PSI in an air hose is the same as 100 PSI in a truck tire.

clintsfolly
02-10-2011, 03:37 PM
.But more volume get through a large hole. Your truck tire will go flat faster with a 1" hole than a 1/8"hole Clint

bowenrd
02-10-2011, 03:42 PM
.But more volume get through a large hole. Your truck tire will go flat faster with a 1" hole than a 1/8"hole Clint

STILL does not change the pressure

45r
02-10-2011, 03:42 PM
I have never had a problem getting very good accuracy from my F/A model 83 in 454casull using small rifle primers.I use rem 7 1/2 for 296,H-110 and federal for midrange loads.I shoot at 60 yards most of the time and get 1 1/2 inch groups with several cast boolit loads and that is good enough for me.When shooting offhand or up in a treestand you probably won't see the differeence in the small amount of accuracy gain anyway between primers.I read they went with small rifle primers for a good reason I can't remember now but the article that explained it is in handloader magazine by Brian Piere I think and he uses small rifle primers and that is what Freedom Arms recomends.If the difference is that good Maybe somebody could get starline to make a bunch.It wouldn't be hard at all for them to make some.454casull brass with large pockets were made in the past.

jrkappy
02-10-2011, 05:52 PM
So, why do full max loads of 110/296 only work with small primers and lighter loads don't?

44man
02-10-2011, 06:23 PM
So, why do full max loads of 110/296 only work with small primers and lighter loads don't?
The SR primer has too much pressure and not enough heat. It pushes the boolit out of the case before good ignition and that increases the air space that amounts to a full download of slow powder. Notice that H110 and 296 should NEVER be downloaded past a certain point?
The powder will fail to ignite but the primer has enough force to push a boolit and the powder well into the bore.
The SR primer was started when Casull was working with duplex and triplex loads, starting with a charge of Bullseye. He blew up many guns.
Isn't it strange that the .460 has a LP pocket? It has nothing to do with brass strength.
Opening the flash hole CAN be dangerous and can do some damage to the gun. You want to limit full pressure to the primer cup. It takes more time for pressure volume to get through a small hole and by then it has dropped.
Even the .475 that has the 45-70 as parent brass for a LR primer is not to be used with the LR primer. Only use a LP mag primer.
Too many read gun rags and don't do the actual work. Sometimes you need to sit at the bench and think for yourself.

bowenrd
02-10-2011, 09:44 PM
All of my brass pistol or rifle has the same size flash hole

stubshaft
02-11-2011, 12:37 AM
Norma brass and the PPC line used to have smaller flash holes. There are some others like Sellier & Belliot, but I don't know if it was caliber specific as the only brass I use from them is for my K-Hornet.

45r
02-11-2011, 01:41 PM
This is from the december 2004 handloader article.Benefits in swithing to the small primer is pockets don't loosen up as fast,some criticized the change,but experience has shown that extreme speads decreased,cases lasted longer,.Experiences in the Lab small primers gave a Much more predictable(gentler) pressure curve,as powders tended to burn from the rear forward like a match,instead of being ignited largely at once.Obviously this change was a significant improvement and remains standard in ALL of todays factory loads.I bet a lot of the factory loads use 296/H-110.Another concern is that a loose pocket could allow the primer to be slammed against the recoil shield and fire while the chamber was out of alignment with the bore.There are more reasons they switched,testing was done at Bell Laboratory and Rem 7 1/2 primers was shown to be thicker and not freeze cylinder rotation which was a problem with other primer types.The 460 uses Rifle primers not pistol primers.That I read in handloader also.Some may say its not necessary to read articles in magazines about handloading but I would rather be safe than sorry.Dick Casull and Brian Pierce has fired more 454 casull loads than probably anyone out there,I think we can asume they know what works the best.Brian Pierce said he was shooting hundreds of full house rounds per week,sometimes per day.That was 20 years ago.Now he says he has come to appreciate midrange loads particularly in the 454.I shoot midloads the most.The brass last forever with the tight chambers and accuracy is excellent.Whats not to like.The 454 can go from mild to wild and last a long,long time.My 454 is as tight today as the first day I got it.I don't understand why someone always wants to knock the 454,its does a lot of things very well.

44man
02-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Looking at load data for the cast boolits starting at the best which is the 335 gr, the max pressure is 43,200. Since accuracy is below that, pressure will be less. Let me guess at 40,000.
Now the .44 can run 39,000.
Only a jacketed bullet in the lighter ranges will exceed those pressures.
Since this is a cast boolit site and pressures do not go beyond what a J bullet has, just what is the problem?
Can any of you remember we shoot cast boolits?
Just how many of you guys are shooting 60,000 with cast? Come clean now, no lies. Bet most are under 35,000. Some that hate recoil are at .45 colt pressures.
Since the best accuracy is well below max pressures, why are you worried about what the gun rags tell you?

45r
02-12-2011, 02:21 PM
I run my loads pretty stiff for my 454 hunting loads,around 1 grain under max with 296.I run my 240xtp j-words to the max at around 2000 fps with Vitt-N-110.I use rem 7 1/2 for max loads,I don't want any problems and accuracy is very good.I had a 315GC grain Mtn Mold boolit made for my 454.I've run it up to close to 1700 fps with 296 and it does kick.I shoot it mostly with HS-6 for midloads.I agree with a lot of what you say and I use a ladle the way you do and it does work real well.I use hard boolits like you do most of the time,mainly because a revolver usually shoots best pushed hard.I have used AC WW with weinie loads and they work just as well since pressure isn't high.I wish I lived close to you and see how you do things since I'm most interested in revolvers and I'm sure I could probably learn quite a lot since you have so much experience and your groups are Very good.But sometimes you put stuff out there that might make somebody steer away from trying AC WW and buying a 454casull when both are very useable.I have shot my 454 with every kind of load out there and it shoots just as good as 357,41,44mag and 45colt.There are no reasons to steer away from the 454,it can load down to the level of the others but the others can not shoot as fast as the 454 since they aren't designed to get up to around 55,000 psi and not loosen up.Like you said most don't want to shoot at pressures that high but I have because the 454 can handle it and accuracy is still good.You have to use hard boolits but that isn't a problem with heat treated WW or hard lead.You can use Vitt-N-110 if 296 isn't working the way it does in other cals,I don't have any problems using it myself.

LUCKYDAWG13
02-12-2011, 02:45 PM
i use cci 400 in my 454 35gr of H110 240xtp lights up each time

44man
02-12-2011, 05:26 PM
I run my loads pretty stiff for my 454 hunting loads,around 1 grain under max with 296.I run my 240xtp j-words to the max at around 2000 fps with Vitt-N-110.I use rem 7 1/2 for max loads,I don't want any problems and accuracy is very good.I had a 315GC grain Mtn Mold boolit made for my 454.I've run it up to close to 1700 fps with 296 and it does kick.I shoot it mostly with HS-6 for midloads.I agree with a lot of what you say and I use a ladle the way you do and it does work real well.I use hard boolits like you do most of the time,mainly because a revolver usually shoots best pushed hard.I have used AC WW with weinie loads and they work just as well since pressure isn't high.I wish I lived close to you and see how you do things since I'm most interested in revolvers and I'm sure I could probably learn quite a lot since you have so much experience and your groups are Very good.But sometimes you put stuff out there that might make somebody steer away from trying AC WW and buying a 454casull when both are very useable.I have shot my 454 with every kind of load out there and it shoots just as good as 357,41,44mag and 45colt.There are no reasons to steer away from the 454,it can load down to the level of the others but the others can not shoot as fast as the 454 since they aren't designed to get up to around 55,000 psi and not loosen up.Like you said most don't want to shoot at pressures that high but I have because the 454 can handle it and accuracy is still good.You have to use hard boolits but that isn't a problem with heat treated WW or hard lead.You can use Vitt-N-110 if 296 isn't working the way it does in other cals,I don't have any problems using it myself.
Very good indeed, you know how it is and how good the .454 can be.
Our problem was only when working loads just for accuracy with reduced loads of 296. There is just a limit with the SR primer as to how much the loads can be reduced.
One gr or even 1/2 gr can either work or fail.
I have used the Fed 155 in the 45-70, 454, .460, .475, .500 JRH, .500 Linebaugh and yes, even the .50 Alaskan.
Don't you find it strange that the .454 is the only caliber that uses a SR primer?

jrkappy
02-12-2011, 06:14 PM
Any problem cutting down 460 SW brass for the large rifle primer? Aside from the labor aspect of it.

44man
02-13-2011, 10:59 AM
Any problem cutting down 460 SW brass for the large rifle primer? Aside from the labor aspect of it.
No, they work fine. Here are two cases shot with a load I won't tell you. The .460 brass was primed with the Fed 155.
Do not use a LR primer!

mdi
02-13-2011, 01:47 PM
Pressure is pressure no matter the size of the flash hole. A larger flash hole will not generate more pressure. 100 PSI in an air hose is the same as 100 PSI in a truck tire. I think he meant there will be more pressure in the primer pocket with a larger flash hole. During the ignition time the primer would be subject to more pressure from less restriction of a small primer flash hole. I would expect the same symptoms of a way over pressure load with modified flash holes, not to mention blown primers...

45r
02-13-2011, 03:46 PM
There are many things that will help with accuracy like consistant neck tension,some dies don't size down enough to provide good tensoin.I use M-dies and make them have 4 thou less diameter than the sized boolit.I polish them also.I neck size my brass,some chambers in some sixguns are so sloppy its necessary.I polish my chambers and throats with flitz so the boolit doesn't get roughed up on the jump to the cone.Powder residue doesn't cling to the throats as easy.Revolvers shoot better if the drive band is in the throat a little.You want a tight fit,If the brass or boolit is tilted when it is going to the cone accuracy suffers.I use redding profile crimpers to get a good crimp also.The boolit needs to go straight,Tight fit in the throat and chamber helps a lot,it needs consistant neck tension to burn powder best,and if the cylinder is lined up good with barrel everything works great if the alloy matches the pressure.GC boolits are less fussy in the pressure matchup.With the tight tolerances and line-boreing in the model 83 454casull I have its easy to get all this stuff right and primers while important aren't as important as boolit fit and good neck tension to me.I've run out of a certain brand of primer during the primer shortages caused by stupid politics and fear and still got my sixgun to shoot just fine with another brand with a little change in powder volume or by using Vitt-N-110 which works very well with any primer.If people want to spend a lot of time getting a little better accuracy thats fine but they surely got a lot more spare time than I do.I'd rather spend what little time I have shooting and not trimming down 460 brass to gain a small increase in accuracy thay probaly won't make much difference untill you get past the ability of most sixgun shooters.44 man has the experience and skill,most don't.If you are going to take long shots with a sixgun you should practice quite a lot.That will make much more difference than what primer you use.

Tar Heel
11-18-2011, 09:56 PM
My contribution to the 454 Casull primer discussion is based on observation and suggestion. Having loaded over 2500 handloads for the 454 Casull since I acquired mine in 1986, and never having a misfire either with jacketed bullets or cast bullets weighing from 240 grains to 340 grains, I would suggest to those who may be having misfire problems to:

1. Use the recommended Small Rifle Magnum primers specified in reputable loading manuals and particularly specified by Freedom Arms.
2. A HEAVY crimp is requisite for reliable ignition of this cartridge particularly when using heavy loads/heavy bullets.
3. Bullet seating and crimping should be performed in separate steps, as recommended by Freedom Arms.

Referencing statement 1 above, I have used CCI, Remington and Winchester primers in these cases, all with reliable ignition. Winchester primers are the easiest to seat. The armchair shooters whose dissertations I have read regarding primers in this case all seem to have forgotten or never did know that the original ammunition produced for this cartridge by Freedom Arms used LARGE Rifle Primers. There are still some of us out there that have several hundred of these cases for our “demonstration loads.” Astute observers will also notice that some cases (Freedom Arms) have the “FA” above or below the “Freedom Arms” on the case head. Primer pocket sizes vary slightly between these two cases and can make primer seating difficult when using a hand tool to seat primers.

There is enough banter on various chat boards regarding the benefits of rifle primers –vs- pistol primers but it should be noted that rifle primers have a thicker cup, allowing for increased chamber pressures and preventing blow-through at these higher pressures.

Referencing statement 2 above, a heavy crimp, one performed by dies made specifically for the 454 Casull as opposed to 45 Colt dies used in lie of 454 Casull dies, is absolutely necessary for proper, reliable, and consistent ignition when using slow burning pistol powders like H-110 and WW-296. A chronograph will bear out the importance of this heavy roll crimp. The roll crimp used in original RCBS dies for the 454 Casull is different than a standard revolver roll crimp and hence statement 3.

Referencing statement 3 above, it has always been suggested by Freedom Arms that bullet seating and crimping be performed in separate steps. I got lazy once and decided to abandon this suggestion with my standard 300gr cast bullet (Lyman 454629). Accuracy went to heck and my standard deviation across shot strings went from 18fps to 34fps simply because I seated and crimped in one step.

All I can really say is that I have followed the guidelines set forth by Freedom Arms and have NEVER had a misfire. I use RCBS dies with the special crimp designed for the 454 Casull. Admittedly I have only used Freedom Arms cases but I fail to see where any manufactures case would make a difference unless the case mouth was weaker allowing bullets to jump their crimp under recoil.

I was amazed at the plethora of available 454 Casull loading data online by sources other than established and reputable authorities like powder & bullet manufactures and Freedom Arms themselves. I was also surprised by the amount of primer discussion, flash hole size discussion and use of nitroglycerine (just kidding there) to increase velocity. Folks, if a 300gr bullet at 1600fps isn’t enough recoil for you, send me an email. I’ll send you an unvented 10” T/C barrel chambered in 45-70. (Disclaimer: I won't really send it.)

Conclusion: For reliable ignition in a 454 Casull, use Small Rifle Magnum primers, use 454 Casull loading dies with the special roll crimp, seat bullets and crimp them in separate steps.
Please for the love of God, don’t modify flash holes. That is not the problem. Your loading technique and/or equipment is probably the root of the ignition problem.

Finally - Wikipedia is not a valid source of reloading data. DOH!

mroliver77
11-19-2011, 01:06 AM
Finally - Wikipedia is not a valid source of reloading data. DOH!

Har har har!

Love Life
11-19-2011, 01:30 AM
My contribution to the 454 Casull primer discussion is based on observation and suggestion. Having loaded over 2500 handloads for the 454 Casull since I acquired mine in 1986, and never having a misfire either with jacketed bullets or cast bullets weighing from 240 grains to 340 grains, I would suggest to those who may be having misfire problems to:

1. Use the recommended Small Rifle Magnum primers specified in reputable loading manuals and particularly specified by Freedom Arms.
2. A HEAVY crimp is requisite for reliable ignition of this cartridge particularly when using heavy loads/heavy bullets.
3. Bullet seating and crimping should be performed in separate steps, as recommended by Freedom Arms.

Referencing statement 1 above, I have used CCI, Remington and Winchester primers in these cases, all with reliable ignition. Winchester primers are the easiest to seat. The armchair shooters whose dissertations I have read regarding primers in this case all seem to have forgotten or never did know that the original ammunition produced for this cartridge by Freedom Arms used LARGE Rifle Primers. There are still some of us out there that have several hundred of these cases for our “demonstration loads.” Astute observers will also notice that some cases (Freedom Arms) have the “FA” above or below the “Freedom Arms” on the case head. Primer pocket sizes vary slightly between these two cases and can make primer seating difficult when using a hand tool to seat primers.

There is enough banter on various chat boards regarding the benefits of rifle primers –vs- pistol primers but it should be noted that rifle primers have a thicker cup, allowing for increased chamber pressures and preventing blow-through at these higher pressures.

Referencing statement 2 above, a heavy crimp, one performed by dies made specifically for the 454 Casull as opposed to 45 Colt dies used in lie of 454 Casull dies, is absolutely necessary for proper, reliable, and consistent ignition when using slow burning pistol powders like H-110 and WW-296. A chronograph will bear out the importance of this heavy roll crimp. The roll crimp used in original RCBS dies for the 454 Casull is different than a standard revolver roll crimp and hence statement 3.

Referencing statement 3 above, it has always been suggested by Freedom Arms that bullet seating and crimping be performed in separate steps. I got lazy once and decided to abandon this suggestion with my standard 300gr cast bullet (Lyman 454629). Accuracy went to heck and my standard deviation across shot strings went from 18fps to 34fps simply because I seated and crimped in one step.

All I can really say is that I have followed the guidelines set forth by Freedom Arms and have NEVER had a misfire. I use RCBS dies with the special crimp designed for the 454 Casull. Admittedly I have only used Freedom Arms cases but I fail to see where any manufactures case would make a difference unless the case mouth was weaker allowing bullets to jump their crimp under recoil.

I was amazed at the plethora of available 454 Casull loading data online by sources other than established and reputable authorities like powder & bullet manufactures and Freedom Arms themselves. I was also surprised by the amount of primer discussion, flash hole size discussion and use of nitroglycerine (just kidding there) to increase velocity. Folks, if a 300gr bullet at 1600fps isn’t enough recoil for you, send me an email. I’ll send you an unvented 10” T/C barrel chambered in 45-70. (Disclaimer: I won't really send it.)

Conclusion: For reliable ignition in a 454 Casull, use Small Rifle Magnum primers, use 454 Casull loading dies with the special roll crimp, seat bullets and crimp them in separate steps.
Please for the love of God, don’t modify flash holes. That is not the problem. Your loading technique and/or equipment is probably the root of the ignition problem.

Finally - Wikipedia is not a valid source of reloading data. DOH!

+1 except I used starline nickle plated brass exclusively. It usally lasted about 7 full bore loadings before cases started to give up the ghost. I was shooting a Freedom Arms model 83 field grade. It came with a 45 colt cylinder, but it never got used. I was amazed at the amount of 2400 that gun could digest. Now I'm on the lookout for another one.

MikeS
11-19-2011, 03:08 AM
STILL does not change the pressure

Clint didn't say it would raise the pressure, only that high pressure SIGNS would appear earlier (with lower pressure). Big difference there.


hi jr and welcome if you open the flash hole you let more pressure back into the primer and will get high pressure signs at lower pressures!! Clint