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kweidner
02-09-2011, 12:21 PM
ruger sbh 44 mag. I thought i had the gun worked out. leading had dissapeared pretty much. 429421 dropping .433 sized to .432. chambers matched to .431, bore is .4295. i have firelapped the bbl. using blue angel lube.

Okay so i had a load of 8.5gr 700x that was doing pretty good. I ran out of my testing loads at the range and had some j word bullets that needed spending so i could have the brass for my new and improved lead shootin SBH. I shot about 15 or so xtps. my 429421 load was showing minimal lead and pretty acceptable accuracy. wanted to try some different powders to see if i could further dial it in.

i loaded more of the 8.5 grains 700x as well as some loads of trail boss and went back and had another go. anything....ANYTHING I put down the bbl is leading so bad that you can chore boy it out, resmelt, and almost cast another bullet. what gives?

the only thing that changed was i ran some jword the other day to clean them out for good and i was using new brass "starline".........i am not running a crimp as the bullets are seating with plenty of neck tension the boolits are not swaging down........I'm stumped

fishhawk
02-09-2011, 12:24 PM
i would suspect copper fouling was the start of it.

Harter66
02-09-2011, 12:38 PM
That's my best guess too.

Doby45
02-09-2011, 12:41 PM
The only thing that changed was putting some copper down the tube. Copper fouling will actually grab the boolit as it goes through and pull some of it's skin off.

kweidner
02-09-2011, 12:54 PM
I cleaned the gun after the session. Do I need to re-clean and try some copper remover? I can't see any copper streaks course i know it might still be there residually. if so how do i re-season for lead. I swear id this is the case there wil NEVER be another jacketed roun put down the tube. I'd rather pull thwm and throw them away!!!!

danielk
02-09-2011, 01:01 PM
The first thing that comes to mind is copper fouling.

The second thing that comes to my mind after reading your original post is "how do you know you had the leading problem figured out?" My question is asked because of how I read your post. You said you ran out of test loads and switched to the jacketed rounds so I assume the loads were being tested to see if you had figured out the leading? Then you went home and cleaned the gun and saw no leading? Running jacketed rounds after shooting cast boolits (and people argue about this) can either clean out the leading or iron the lead to the bore flattening it out and making it harder to see. So I'm curious if you just masked your leading making you think the problem was solved. Cause you said you loaded up some more rounds with same powder to test them farther.

Just trying to brainstorm rather than just regurgitate the most obvious. If my assumptions are wrong and you cleaned the powder fouling out before shooting the jacketed rounds to get a good look at the leading than just ignore my post. Hope this helps.

geargnasher
02-09-2011, 01:28 PM
Copper fouling, even a little bit, can work like a Chore Boy in reverse, grabbing lead from the boolit. This is the very reason that I NEVER shoot copper in any of my cast guns anymore, and in fact haven't loaded copper in a very long time.

I'm not convinced that copper fouling is your problem, or only problem, but I'd say use a good liquid copper remover and if the fouling is there, it will show up as green on the cleaning patches. After you get the barrel cleaned up really well, use a light gun oil on it and let it soak overnight before patching out, or use Bullplate Sprue Lube on a patch and let that soak. It might not do much, but it seems to help my guns keep from getting that annoying "first shot dry bore" lead streak or two after a really thorough cleaning, like I have to do after a load leads it up.

I count myself among the group of theorists that believe that bores "season" with whatever lube you're using, meaning that the barrel steel holds a certain amount of the byproducts of shooting trapped in the pores and machine marks of the metal (carbon, oils, waxes, microscopic dust from boolit abrasion, etc.) and that layer takes a while to build up. It also needs a fighting chance to start out right, same as preventing copper fouling right off the bat, you need a very light oil film on the steel when you start shooting. Not wet, mind you, but a film. A tight dry patch pushed through the barrel will leave just the right amount behind.

Stainless barrels seem to be the most resistant to seasoning, I think the surface must have smaller or fewer pores in general, and I've found stainless barrels less affected by cleanings/strippings than carbon steel, probably because they take less of a "season".

Gear

cabezaverde
02-09-2011, 01:38 PM
After I clean a barrel I shoot cast in, I run a patch very lightly coated with LLA down the bore to prepare it for start up with cast again.

stubshaft
02-09-2011, 04:15 PM
After I clean a barrel I shoot cast in, I run a patch very lightly coated with LLA down the bore to prepare it for start up with cast again.

IIRC - Rooster labs made a pre-treatment for shooting cast.

btroj
02-09-2011, 06:51 PM
I am with Gear. The copper seems to grab hold of the lead. I do find shooting lead a good way to remove lots of copper though. Once you get that lead out most of the copper should be gone too.

I also agree with Gear about the seasoning. I find that my guns shoot better when cleaned less. Keep the action cleaned and lubricated, maybe swab the chamber, but leave the bore alone.

Brad

kweidner
02-09-2011, 07:05 PM
it's actually really interesting. my bore WAS beautiful after all my testing sessions. now where the lands and grooves meet there is a nice tiny silver streak. chore boy doesn't want to get it out. I am trying shooters choice lead out. It is currently soaking. WOW what a pain. I really think you guys are on to something as the lead seems to be really adhered to where the copper seems to always hang out. Now if i could just get it all out. I feel as if the last copper other than chore boy going down that bbl was the other day. After I get the lead out I will use break free faoming bore cleaner. It will dissolve all that copper. I have no lla on hand....I have tetra, rem oil and hoppes....can I use these to season?

btroj
02-09-2011, 11:09 PM
I dont season my bore other than by shooting cast. If you have a load that has not leaded in the part use it. Just don't use solvent to clean after shooting. A dry patch is ok, it also will tell you if any lead is present.
I have never had leading that a brush and chore buy would not remove. I find that it needs to be tight in the bore and the chore boy needs to be re wrapped around the brush after a few passes. I also do the brushing on a dry, not solvent wet, bore.
Brad

geargnasher
02-10-2011, 12:20 AM
it's actually really interesting. my bore WAS beautiful after all my testing sessions. now where the lands and grooves meet there is a nice tiny silver streak. I suspect that lead deposited here is caused from gas cutting and failure of obturation. Usually this is due to boolit skidding the rifling in revolvers, meaning pressure built too fast from too fast of a powder for the boolit weight, boolit too soft for the pressure, or undersized boolits. From what you said, fit probably isn't the issue, I think you need a much slower powder. chore boy doesn't want to get it out. Try Bronze wool or 4-ought steel wool wrapped around a bronze brush, it will help get in smaller places and help remove the last bit in the creases. I am trying shooters choice lead out. It is currently soaking. WOW what a pain. I really think you guys are on to something as the lead seems to be really adhered to where the copper seems to always hang out. I've rarely seen copper fouling in the crease of the groove/land angle in a revolver. Usually it's right in the middle of the lands and grooves. Now if i could just get it all out. You'll need to if you don't want it to lead again I feel as if the last copper other than chore boy going down that bbl was the other day. Uh-oh, first sign of a boolit addict! After I get the lead out I will use break free faoming bore cleaner. It will dissolve all that copper. I have no lla on hand....I have tetra, rem oil and hoppes....can I use these to season?

Use the Rem-oil once you get it completely clean, the "seasoning" to which I refer will happen all by itself, your Blue Angel lube, good fitting boolits, and the right powder and amount is all you need. After a box or two of a proven load, the gun will probably begin to group better and better until group size, point of impact, and velocities stabilize. At this point, you might want to do whatever you can to preserve the bore condition as is, that means no solvents, so scrubbing, leave it alone, just make sure it doesn't rust. One thing about a properly seasoned bore is that it likely won't rust at all, but in some cases it can. Like Brad said, clean the action, cylinder, etc. but once you get it shooting good, don't mess with it unless you have to. I have never had a gun that would shoot copper and lead interchangeably, the copper screws up the season and vice-versa.

Gear

kweidner
02-10-2011, 08:42 AM
got it all out. I have loaded 20 of the 700x this AM that had not leaded in the past few sessions and some loads with 2400 starting at 18 grains. Maybe this thing just refuses to shoot the LV. I have had limited success with the faster burning powders, however, the leading was negligible. If the rain stops this PM I will try again and post results. I guess if it's raining it is no biggie, my new mould should be here for my New Dan Wesson in .357 mag. I will just drop some .358. YOU GUYS HAVE CREATED ANOTHER ADDICT! [smilie=s:

44man
02-10-2011, 09:28 AM
I don't believe in seasoning. [smilie=s: I switch back and forth between J word bullets and boolits all the time. The only thing I do is clean the bore before either. A clean bore only needs one boolit before the rest go into the group.
The strange thing is I get no copper either and if any at all, it is a little on the first patch of Sweets and I get no leading. That goes for all of my revolvers. I never oil a bore either.
Now it might be because my boolits always have Felix lube on them, I don't wipe the noses off except I run my thumbnail around those with a lube buildup. The Lee die is messy! :bigsmyl2: I always wipe just the brass off.
Now I explained a lot about those light loads where they need a harder boolit because of the sudden pressure rise, slump and skid. The 2400 is spreading the pressure rise.
I never used Blue Angel so I can't comment but if it is hard and your boolits are clean except for lube in the grooves, it might not be working. Sometimes messy is the best way to go. My boolits are a huge clump in my storage boxes, can't pick up just one! :veryconfu
Now I have used up many bottles of LLA and tried everything posted but it will lead my bore so I gave away a pile of bottles just for the postage. Get the stuff free in with every Lee die.
Here is a box of boolits ready to go through a Lee die. :bigsmyl2:

Doby45
02-10-2011, 10:44 AM
Sweet purple boolits Batman! ;)

Moonie
02-10-2011, 12:52 PM
Sweet purple boolits Batman! ;)

obviously quenched in ice water :kidding:

geargnasher
02-10-2011, 01:00 PM
I don't believe in seasoning. [smilie=s: I switch back and forth between J word bullets and boolits all the time. The only thing I do is clean the bore before either. A clean bore only needs one boolit before the rest go into the group.
The strange thing is I get no copper either and if any at all, it is a little on the first patch of Sweets and I get no leading. That goes for all of my revolvers. I never oil a bore either.
Now it might be because my boolits always have Felix lube on them, I don't wipe the noses off except I run my thumbnail around those with a lube buildup. The Lee die is messy! :bigsmyl2: I always wipe just the brass off.
Now I explained a lot about those light loads where they need a harder boolit because of the sudden pressure rise, slump and skid. The 2400 is spreading the pressure rise.
I never used Blue Angel so I can't comment but if it is hard and your boolits are clean except for lube in the grooves, it might not be working. Sometimes messy is the best way to go. My boolits are a huge clump in my storage boxes, can't pick up just one! :veryconfu
Now I have used up many bottles of LLA and tried everything posted but it will lead my bore so I gave away a pile of bottles just for the postage. Get the stuff free in with every Lee die.
Here is a box of boolits ready to go through a Lee die. :bigsmyl2:

I know you've shot everything under the sun, but you only give your revolvers as an example of not seasoning. Mostly SS revolvers, too I'll bet. If you don't get copper fouling and your stuff doesn't lead, then either you are a Warlock ;-) or your bores are so well seasoned with FWFL that you have reached perfection. I don't oil my bores, either, unless they are bone-dry from a de-leading, decoppering (meaning a used recent aquisition). The FWFL on the noses makes a big difference there, I'll bet.

Gear

kweidner
02-10-2011, 10:34 PM
just curious. in the summer i can take my guns from my inside environment to the 100 degree heat with 100 percent humidity and they sweat like who would of thought. if no oil how do i prevent rust? this is why I am so OCD cleaning when getting back from the range. I have always cleaned, oiled, wiped down, and back in the safe they go....the first time i didn't my new pro hunter tried to rust. I caught it super quick so no harm. Could i oil with something after range session. I realize lead seasoning shouldn't rust but....what do you think? Have you ever experinced this?

geargnasher
02-10-2011, 11:06 PM
K, I use Felix lube for all but two loads and Ed's Red as a powder solvent, the only rusting I have ever experienced was recently with a particular combination of lube and powder, two guns of the same caliber shot with the same load and left in the safe with clean actions and untouched bores rusted slighty in a month. That's why I said keep an eye on it. A quick patch-out with Ed's Red with some Lanolin in it would be good insurance. Or patch and oil. Or patch and use your favorite flavor of Stupendous Super-Bore Preservative, just don't scrub it down to bare steel each time.

Gear

kweidner
02-11-2011, 02:46 AM
Gear, thanks for the reply. If i get things back rocking this weekend i will do just that. it is going to be hard as I grew up with two benchrest shooters and cleanliness was the name of the game. Different animal completley. I have been relativley new at the whole lead thing. My 1911 was the first I started casting for a couple years ago. Oddly enough I have never had a lead problem with it. My second project was a colt load for a judge. Needless to say that project got tabled fairly quickly. I got my first 44 in November my custom 629. I got addicted to it's accuracy quickly. First time I realized exactly what a fine revolver was capable of. Can't afford those 300 grain xtps like i like to shoot handguns. 5 years ago 800 yards for my Cooper 6.5 x .284 was relativley easy but 25 yard good group with a handgun was iffy at best. The 1911 cured all that. I will get this all worked out eventually, there haven't been many things shootin wise I haven't been able to figure out without the help of guys like these guys around here. Longrangehunting.com was how i learned the distance game with the long guns. Same kind of guys around there. Always willing to help. I really appreciate it and will keep you guys posted as this progresses.

44man
02-11-2011, 10:26 AM
just curious. in the summer i can take my guns from my inside environment to the 100 degree heat with 100 percent humidity and they sweat like who would of thought. if no oil how do i prevent rust? this is why I am so OCD cleaning when getting back from the range. I have always cleaned, oiled, wiped down, and back in the safe they go....the first time i didn't my new pro hunter tried to rust. I caught it super quick so no harm. Could i oil with something after range session. I realize lead seasoning shouldn't rust but....what do you think? Have you ever experinced this?
YES, keep a blued gun oiled. I shoot stainless and my basement is real dry so I don't have rust problems. It is 37% right now.
However I wipe the bore of an oiled gun before I shoot it. Only one shot will put it back to what you want.
Some of you MUST clean all the time but I can't tell you that you need a few hundred shots to "season" a bore before it shoots good. It is not a frying pan.
The proper alloy and lube will shoot out what was left in the bore from the previous shot, it should never build up.
Turn your boolits into self cleaners.

44man
02-11-2011, 10:55 AM
I know you've shot everything under the sun, but you only give your revolvers as an example of not seasoning. Mostly SS revolvers, too I'll bet. If you don't get copper fouling and your stuff doesn't lead, then either you are a Warlock ;-) or your bores are so well seasoned with FWFL that you have reached perfection. I don't oil my bores, either, unless they are bone-dry from a de-leading, decoppering (meaning a used recent aquisition). The FWFL on the noses makes a big difference there, I'll bet.

Gear
Yep, stainless! But all I get out of my bores is carbon from the powder and when or if I clean, I get them down to bare steel. I start with Hoppe's because it is still good stuff. Then I go to M-Pro 7 with a brush to get all the carbon out of the steel. This stuff will take the rings off the cylinder face with a suede brush. It is great stuff and you can rinse it off with water.
There is nothing left in my bores but one shot is enough to start shooting groups or pop cans at 100 yards.
Felix really does work and being messy with it does great. I suspect you are correct that lube all over the boolit is what works. I firmly believe in as much lube as you can use. Lube quality is important because LLA WILL lead my guns. I HATE Alox! :holysheep
Now copper is a mystery because I have no problems. My .44 has over 61,000 rounds so it might just be very smooth and the BFR's have Badger barrels and are hand lapped so a new one will not foul with copper either.
I am spoiled! [smilie=w: