PDA

View Full Version : Ruger LCR and 358439 HP loads with Unique



Ohio Rusty
02-06-2011, 07:10 PM
Last week I cast some of the Ideal/Lyman 358439 HP's from a mix of approx 2 lb. WWs to One lb. pure lead, no tin added. They felt pretty soft the day I cast them. After sitting for a week, they have hardened up some and the bottoms will scratch with a fingernail, but not as soft as they were. They were pan lubed with 60 JPW/30 beeswax/10 toilet ring wax. I have been anxious to try these from my Ruger LCR. I had some concerns that the nose would be too long for the cylinder, but there is plenty of room to spare in front of the boolit. Ruger thought out the engineering of this revolver very well.

I worked up a couple of loads and settled on 5.0 grains of Unique under these 155grain 358439 HP's primed with Winchester small pistol primers. I bought one of the smaller Hogue boot grips for better concealability and wanted to give the new grips a test run. In that 13 ounce pistol, that load barks with authority and was just a little painful. I could probably do 5.2 or 5.3 grains, but 5.0 grains is about the max load I would load in that light pistol. The grip wasn't too small as I was able to control the shots. I could clearly feel the recoil at the base of my thumb as the gun would jump quite a bit.. That load goes thru a thick phone book at 10 feet.

The barrel is nice and clean with no signs of leading. The boolits fired into dry phone books deformed well and a couple turned sideways. Four I found, two weighed about 150 grains, one weighed 133 grains and one weighed 106 grains. The next time I cast these, I'll cast them half wheelweights, half pure lead. I was happy to find the threads about the 50/50 WW/Pure combination in the alloys thread, and I know this will be a fine alloy for this boolit. The Ruger LCR paired with this cast boolit as an excellent combination and will be a great defense loading
What a great feeling to load and cast your own, and have it all come together for you down range.
Ohio Rusty ><>

MtGun44
02-07-2011, 04:31 PM
5.0 of Unique SOUNDS (without looking it up) pretty hot. What is the book velocity?
Sounds like it will work.

Bill

fecmech
02-07-2011, 05:04 PM
5.0 Unique is a max std pressure load with 358429 (heavier) in the Lyman cast bullet handbook #3. and IIRC about 16500 cup, well within the capabilities of that Ruger.

Ohio Rusty
02-08-2011, 07:32 PM
This load data is directly from Alliant:
Using Unique powder: 6inch barrel CCI 500 primer Unique powder 5.2 grains 919FPS.

That load is within load specs, but in such a light 13 ounce pistol, it kicks alot, so I'll probably move back down to 4.5 grains. It's nice to know that the LCR rated +P will definitely handle loads that will put the hurt to someone high and crazed on drugs, meth, etc.
I don't think the .357 model of that same pistol would be as pleasant with full .357 loads. Ouch !!
Ohio Rusty ><>

Mack Heath
02-08-2011, 07:45 PM
While I realize that for a self-defense application the ranges will usually be quite short, there may be another issue to consider. Years ago a fellow who was a bush pilot wrote an article on finding a good load for his Model 36 to use as a survival gun in Alsaka where he worked. It appeared in Handloader Magazine around 1968 or so.

He found that in such a short barrel, soft bullets weren't able to stop their skidding across the rifling and properly spin up. As a result, accuracy suffered. If you take a look at the rifling on the bullets you recovered, you might find that the rifling is wider than the lands in your gun. This assumes that the LCR has standard rifling. What the fellow did was incrementally increase the hardness of his cast bullets until the skidding stopped. He was able to achieve some pretty amazing accuracy from such a small gun once he found an alloy that would engage the rifling properly before the bullet exited the 2" barrel. Since he did his work up during the Alaskan winter, he used snow to catch the bullets without deforming or damaging the rifling on the bullets. If the bullets was skidding all the way out the barrel, the grooves were wider along the full length of the bearing surface than the lands in the barrel. When he hit the right alloy, the skidding was only apparent on a portion of the bearing surface and the grooves were no wider than the lands on the last portion of the bearing surface near the base of the bullet. When he hit that formula, he had a bullet no harder than necessay yet one that shot very well.

adrians
02-09-2011, 05:00 PM
i just got my wife the lcr in 38+p and i will give these loads a try, well maybe just 4.5 /unique.
for such a lightweight it sure can handle the "pressure" :evil:[smilie=w::twisted:

MtGun44
02-10-2011, 04:07 AM
I just re-read this title. I misread it originally as LCP, which is .380 caliber. Of course,
the LCR is .38 Spl.

5.0 Unique is my personal favorite 'high power' load for the 358429 (non HP version
of 358439) in .38 Spl, so there is no problem with the load. I breezed past the boolit
designation, assuming it was some .380 mold that I was not familiar with. Only
later, did I go back, wanting to know exactly what design he was using in the .380.
Rereading it, I had to stop for a few seconds with the unfamiliar number - only then
did I remember that 358439 is the rare bird where the HP mold has it's own design
number and that this a heavy .38 Spl and .357 boolit. I have a HPed 358429, so
I tend to think more in the conventional way as 358429HP rather than 358439,which
are ultimately the same thing.

In .380, I think 5 gr Unique would be an overload! I wonder if you could even get
it into the case at all.

I think I was up too late at night on that original post!

Bill

MtJerry
03-31-2011, 12:15 PM
I shot that very bullet (cast out of 50/50 ww/Pb)out of my Ruger LCR 38 Special today into milk jugs this morning. Load was 3.2 gr of Bullseye. I got zero expansion. The bullet penetrated 4 jugs and lodged in the forward "skin" of the 5th jug.

I did some more digging and found that out of 6" barrel this load generates only about 700fps of velocity.

I think I need to boost velocity a fair bit to get the expansion I want out of the 50/50 mix.

As to your original question I think your alloy of 2 parts ww and 1 part Pb will be a bit too hard unless you really run them fast.

I'd suggest something softer.

fecmech
03-31-2011, 04:32 PM
I shot that very bullet (cast out of 50/50 ww/Pb)out of my Ruger LCR 38 Special today into milk jugs this morning. Load was 3.2 gr of Bullseye. I got zero expansion. The bullet penetrated 4 jugs and lodged in the forward "skin" of the 5th jug.

I did some more digging and found that out of 6" barrel this load generates only about 700fps of velocity.

I think I need to boost velocity a fair bit to get the expansion I want out of the 50/50 mix.

As to your original question I think your alloy of 2 parts ww and 1 part Pb will be a bit too hard unless you really run them fast.

I'd suggest something softer.

If you want any expansion at all out of a 2" BBL. you will need to go almost pure lead( like maybe 30/1 lead tin). Forget anything with antimony in it and run a +P load of Unique or something like that. At best you will just barely get 800 fps which is not much for HP's. The classic "FBI" loads averaged just under 800 fps from snubs and in gelatin would expand to about .5" . Those bullets are basically straight lead.

Bret4207
03-31-2011, 05:53 PM
While I realize that for a self-defense application the ranges will usually be quite short, there may be another issue to consider. Years ago a fellow who was a bush pilot wrote an article on finding a good load for his Model 36 to use as a survival gun in Alsaka where he worked. It appeared in Handloader Magazine around 1968 or so.

He found that in such a short barrel, soft bullets weren't able to stop their skidding across the rifling and properly spin up. As a result, accuracy suffered. If you take a look at the rifling on the bullets you recovered, you might find that the rifling is wider than the lands in your gun. This assumes that the LCR has standard rifling. What the fellow did was incrementally increase the hardness of his cast bullets until the skidding stopped. He was able to achieve some pretty amazing accuracy from such a small gun once he found an alloy that would engage the rifling properly before the bullet exited the 2" barrel. Since he did his work up during the Alaskan winter, he used snow to catch the bullets without deforming or damaging the rifling on the bullets. If the bullets was skidding all the way out the barrel, the grooves were wider along the full length of the bearing surface than the lands in the barrel. When he hit the right alloy, the skidding was only apparent on a portion of the bearing surface and the grooves were no wider than the lands on the last portion of the bearing surface near the base of the bullet. When he hit that formula, he had a bullet no harder than necessay yet one that shot very well.

Sometimes, not always, but sometimes you can go to a different powder with a different pressure curve and stop the "skidding" and still use the softer (less tough actually) alloy. Different rifling forms, crimp and forcing cone shape and condition are a couple other things that can affect that skidding. Some of that I get from research, some from experience.

Bret4207
03-31-2011, 05:58 PM
If you want any expansion at all out of a 2" BBL. you will need to go almost pure lead( like maybe 30/1 lead tin). Forget anything with antimony in it and run a +P load of Unique or something like that. At best you will just barely get 800 fps which is not much for HP's. The classic "FBI" loads averaged just under 800 fps from snubs and in gelatin would expand to about .5" . Those bullets are basically straight lead.

I know that a lot of people put a bunch of faith in HP's but I haven't found them to be reliable openers at speeds under 1100 or so. My answer is to use a boolit with a good FP. HP that FP and then you have the best of both worlds. I offer that with the caveat that I haven't used alloy softer than something similar to 20-1 or so, WW's cut by about 2/3's with pure.

Larry Gibson
03-31-2011, 06:22 PM
"If you want any expansion at all out of a 2" BBL. you will need to go almost pure lead( like maybe 30/1 lead tin). Forget anything with antimony in it and run a +P load of Unique or something like that. At best you will just barely get 800 fps which is not much for HP's. The classic "FBI" loads averaged just under 800 fps from snubs and in gelatin would expand to about .5" . Those bullets are basically straight lead."


fecmech pretty much nailed it except I used 40-1 lead tin alloy with Javelina lube in 150 - 158 cast HPs to duplictat the FBI Winchester and Federal 150 gr HP lead HP +Ps (My department issued the Winchester load). The softer alloy was needed to ensure any expansion at lower velocities. Lyman listed 5.4 gr Unique as the max +P load and I've loaded and shot a lot of them through my M15 and M19 w 2.5" barrel. Out of my 4" issue M15 the Winchester +P ran 925 fps and the Lyman +P loads ((358156) ran right at 950 fps. The M19 ran about 80 - 100 fps slower. I never had leading, even with a HP'd PB 358477 cast of that alloy and in my expansion tests into wet newsprint there was never any indication of "skidding" with either the factory load or the cast bullet. Penetration and expansion were identical in the wet newsprint BTW.

Larry Gibson

klcarroll
04-01-2011, 09:49 AM
I don't want to hijack the thread, ...but I have always believed in the old adage “Ask The Man Who Owns One”: …….And there are a bunch of LCR owners here!

I have been considering the purchase of a discrete “pocket protector”, and I’d like to ask; “Why should I purchase an LCR, when I can buy a nice S&W J-frame on Gunbroker for the same money??”

I am particularly leery of giving up the single action option.

Thank you in advance for your opinions!!


Kent

MtJerry
04-01-2011, 02:26 PM
The only difference you will find between those two is weight and cost. LCR costs considerably less and weighs considerably less as well.

For some good reading - look here: http://www.snubnose.info/docs/Theory.htm

And here (good info about single action): http://www.snubnose.info/docs/practice_drills.htm

klcarroll
04-01-2011, 03:54 PM
The only difference you will find between those two is weight and cost. LCR costs considerably less and weighs considerably less as well................

Well, .....I understand that in comparing new LCRs to used "J-Frames" I am, to a minor extent, "comparing apples to oranges": .......But "Brand New" has never meant very much to me because I shoot everything I own anyway!

After spending a couple of hours on Gunbroker, it looks to me as though something like 400 bucks will get the job done in either case!

After reading the links you posted, I still tend to value the Single Action option. As the owner of a rural piece of property I can recall taking several (successful) shots at vermin with my little "Walkin’ Around Gun": .....It got used because that was all I had with me. If it had been a "double action only" weapon, ...there probably wouldn't have even been any point in trying!

To be honest, I was kinda hoping that someone would regale me with tales of things that the LCR does BETTER than a J-Frame.

Kent

MtJerry
04-01-2011, 04:09 PM
"Better" is in the eyes of the beholder :-)

I use my LCR as a defense weapon.

I have a 4" Ruger GP100 for a "walking around gun"

Sounds like you have decided what works for you ... I say stick with that!