Pic of hot cast bullets

[357shooter]

Took a couple of pics and thought I'd post one.

These were just cast this morning, 3 hours ago.

If anyone was wondering what bullets cast with a hot pot look like, this is it.

The alloy is 8/3, lead/WW. I expect it to harden to BHN 7-7.5, still very soft.

These 168 Keith's were cast with the alloy fully preheated to 925 degrees. The mould was preheated to 365, however I kept it between 380 and 395 for the best results.


http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/prgallo/100_1971.jpg

[geargnasher]

So, what's your argument? That using an alloy with just about no tin and less than one percent antimony can tolerate higher casting temps? We already know that because of the relative oxidation rates of alloys having different compositions. What's your best pot and mould temp for WW?

Gear

[357shooter]

?
I'm not making an argument.

But I have posted before that I cast with a hot pot. I get that most folks don't.

The picture came out pretty good, so I posted it.

What's your argument? Is there some problem you have with this?

I don't cast with pure WW (don't get the best groups with WW and they are tough to get here), what's your beef?

[geargnasher]

My beef is all the blatant misinformation about "crank up the heat" that gets slung around the internet, and your post seems to be aimed at that argument. The real issue most newbie casters (and many experienced ones too), experience is poor mould fillout. The almost universal advice is to "crank up the pot to 800*" or even hotter, and this is the worst advice you could give someone who hasn't figured out yet that MOULD temperature is what makes or breaks your boolit quality.

If you cast with WW alloy, or "hardball", or Taracorp Magnum (same as hardball), or Lyman #2, you would need to cast at a MUCH cooler rate to keep your oxidation to a minimum and your alloy consistent, since tin will oxidize out of the melt at a greater rate than the other metals at temps much over 725*. By 750* Tin is oxidizing out just about as fast as you can reduce it back in with sacrificial reducants like wax and wood.

POT temperature needs to be maintained at a point that is good for the alloy, and that's a set point. About 75-125* above FULL liquidus works best for me. If the alloy is fully liquid starting at 560*, like most WW metal is, you can keep your pot between 650-675 and have very low oxidation rates, consistent alloy because you aren't burning out your tin constantly, and it will pour great boolits PROVIDED YOUR MOULD IS HOT ENOUGH. Pure lead melts at 621*, and most of the ternary alloys melt below that, so there isn't really ever much call to cast at temps over 725. Like water, lead is just as molten at one degree over it's melting point as it is at 300 degrees over its melting point, so there is zero advantage to the extra heat, and plenty of disadvantages from a metallurgical standpoint.

Many people think you need a 1000 degree pot to ever get a mould to cast good boolts, the truth is that I can cast a shiny, wrinkled disaster with a hemi-spherical base with 800 degree WW alloy poured into a 150 degree mould, and can cast frosty, pitted overheated boolits with 650 degree alloy and a mould at 450. It's the rules of metallurgy.

Now I say do what works for you, but don't add confusion to an already esoteric and confusing subject to say "Well, I run a hotter pot than others, and don't have any problems", when those "others" might have been using an alloy that will practically curdle with oxides at 925* and be tin-free in under five minutes. I see that you don't understand this better than most, since you don't use much WW or similar alloy, and I'm trying to bring some facts to life for the rest of the people who may be reading this an not know that what you're doing only works because your alloy is very close to pure lead. Can you see how some newbie can come along and all he notes from your OP is "925* sure made pretty, shiny boolits for that guy" and then spends the rest of his life trying to figure out why he can't do that with his WW metal?

Gear

[462]

I used to be in the "crank up the heat" camp. However, thanks to Gear, I've come to realize that mould temperature is what matters most.

The third edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook has an excellent chapter, by Dennis Marshall -- whom I believe is a metallurgist -- titled The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys. The more I read it, the more I learn.

[sh00ter787]

im a noobie and must say its the first ive heard of the "crank it up" argument, just one more bit of info ive learned from here! I do worry about having the pot too hot, but only from the point of view of the mold getting too hot too quick which causes frosting for me. Now ive got to worry about losing the tin from my alloy!

but i will say, thats a very nice pic!

[btroj]

I do crank up the pot, in some cases. My 313640 RG4 need to be cast hot. This is because it is so hard to keep the mould hot. It also uses so little lead that those big block a cool too quickly.
I find that once you get the mould hot everything else is simple. It is getting the mould up to temp that is critical. Use a hot plate, dip it in the melt, or just cast some. Whatever you do, get that baby HOT.
Maybe we need to see more emphasis on a mould thermometer than on a melt thermometer?

I also think some of this is the ancient wisdom that has been handed down that says only shiny bullets shoot well. Frosty was considered bad.

I love frosty bullets. They have good fill out. They shoot well for me. They work. Shiny ones do not.

Good post Gear.

Brad

[GLL]

357:

Whose 168 Keith mould are you using?

Jerry

[Tom W.]

Just piss in the guy's cornflakes... If he's happy with what he does, leave it at that..

[Ole]

That's a good lookin' boolit! You're doing something right! :mrgreen:

[DeadHandRed]

Just piss in the guy's cornflakes... If he's happy with what he does, leave it at that..

fair enough. :takinWiz:

but i appreciate gears insight as to why this works for him. and may not for me.

[357shooter]

Gear:

It's a free country, so argue if you want. Didn't mean to piss you off though.

You are right, I have said crank up the the heat. I also said with soft alloy, and I'll add aluminum moulds.


I believe I've always posted the alloy and made clear exactly what I've been casting. I never said take Lyman #2 and put the pot on full.

Are we OK now?

Oh, I've also agreed that mould temp is critical. If this is misinformation than I'm guilty, and will continue to be. What works, works.

[357shooter]

Thanks for the nice words about the pic. These are from the NOE 358429 group buy. The bullet I cast and shoot more than anything else.

[frankenfab]

Those are great looking boolits, 357shooter.

I don't want to take sides.

Thanks to gearnasher, I no longer have so much dross all the time, though. I also found I was actually having trouble getting good fillout because my alloy was so hot and I had the spout on my pot opened up so much that there wasn't enough time for all the air to escape. This happened after I started getting the coordination to cast faster. I was just trying to speed things up, and I was actually going too hot with my pot to get that speed.

[357shooter]

Thanks, gotta figure out this thing about the picture being so big. Maybe next time though.:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[kelbro]

Looks great.

Since you posted your alloy and temp, it IS educational to a newbie in that they can see that they really DON'T have to add tin to get a great fillout.

I would bet that the sizes and weights are pretty consistent too.

I don't understand why sharing something different would create such a confrontational attitude...

For target bullets, I don't care if it has tin, arsenic, antimony, zinc, silver or unobtanium in it. I just want it to print small groups. If 8/3 @ 925 does it while regulating the mold temp to ~390 does it, I'm all for it.

Thanks for sharing.

For reference, how are you measuring you melt temp and mold temp?

[RobS]

Both gear and 357shooter are correct in what they do with the alloys in which they work with. I've run this discussion before and where some folks will argue that no alloy, no way no how, should ever be above 675 degrees, 700 degrees, 725 degrees or whatever temperature they feel is necessary to cast at are many times the ones who have not used or rarely use such alloys that may require a higher temperature to cast well with in a particular style/design of mold. There are those who are casting at higher temps and are doing so with full knowledge that they are using alloys that are not greatly affected by the temps they cast at. Then there are those who are burning up the alloy in which they use and are pulling the dross off the top of their melt fully unaware they are pulling out tin, antimony etc. with each spoonful.

I see no problem with what 357shooter is doing with the alloy he is using and the given report with actual temp readings of the mold and alloy is a nice addition to cast knowledge. Gear has also written up once again a nice piece pertaining to the binary metals in which many casters utilize. With everything that has transposed so far, this actually has been a very good thread for a newbie to learn from.

[357shooter]

Looks great.

Since you posted your alloy and temp, it IS educational to a newbie in that they can see that they really DON'T have to add tin to get a great fillout.

I would bet that the sizes and weights are pretty consistent too.

I don't understand why sharing something different would create such a confrontational attitude...

For target bullets, I don't care if it has tin, arsenic, antimony, zinc, silver or unobtanium in it. I just want it to print small groups. If 8/3 @ 925 does it while regulating the mold temp to ~390 does it, I'm all for it.

Thanks for sharing.

For reference, how are you measuring you melt temp and mold temp?

Thanks for the good feedback. I have the NOE mould thermometer, and got to use it for the first time. Still learning it a bit, hope to post more about it because the results were very consistent. Some of my cooling got a excessive about 1/2 way through the pot. I wouldn't have know it without the thermometer.

What I did to figure the cavity temp, is use a kitchen thermometer stuck in the middle cavity, then heated on a hotplate until it read 360. The digital read 440.

Then cooled it all down and heated the mould on the pot, dipped in alloy. At 360 in the cavity the mould read 440 again. Seemed like a all-systems-go so I started casting. The bullets got great at 460 (that would be 380 in the cavity) and started frosting at 480 (400 in the cavity). They dropped easier at 475, so I kept it below that for the session.

Worked great. Very consistent weights and sizes. I'm exited enough to invest some time in testing the consistency when using the digital mould thermometer.

This was with a 5 cavity mould. I haven't figured out the temps with a 2 cavity yet.

[HATCH]

I cast with my pot WIDE OPEN.
I use known WW ingots and flux the pot once the lead is liquid.

I regulate my mold temp by increasing or decreasing my casting rate.
The last session I did, the lead was so hot that when I dropped a sized and lubed boolit into the pot it flamed up. I should of turned the pot temp down but it was casting so good using my Mihec HP mold.

[geargnasher]

"If anyone was wondering what bullets cast with a hot pot look like, this is it."

That right there is what got me going. Many people will not take note of the second, and most important part:

"The alloy is 8/3, lead/WW. I expect it to harden to BHN 7-7.5, still very soft."

I know this, I've seen it happen here too many times. And I can most certainly go show you that boolits cast from WW alloy WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT look like that from a 925* alloy, and after the first couple of dozen they will have less and less tin in them, and will have different weights, sizes, hardness, and compositions by the end of the run. I'm trying to save some headaches for everybody here.

This isn't about sides, it's about pointing out some important facts about casting with different alloys, and those boolits in the pic are so nice looking they are likely to get the attention they deserve from casters that might not be using that kind of alloy, and not realize it makes a difference. Like I said, if it works for you, and it would work for me or anyone else with a similar, high-lead alloy, then great! I'm not pissing on anyone's parade. What I'm saying is 925* will create a disaster with typical boolit casting alloys containing 1-2% tin and 3-5% antimony, and I felt that needed to be pointed out.

I've run quite a few pure to near-pure lead slugs out of my pot, and never had a need to run the metal much over 725, but I've run it up to over 800 at times just because it doesn't dross out like WW metal. The trick to getting Minnies to fill out is all about the mould being hot enough, and a hot plate works great as a mould stand to keep it plenty hot anytime there isn't lead in it. If you run a hotter alloy, you can cast slower, but I've never seen the need to deal with the extra maintenance. The nice thing about casting with near pure lead is that you don't have to worry about much dross or burning out your tin and altering the alloy composition.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Looks great.

Since you posted your alloy and temp, it IS educational to a newbie in that they can see that they really DON'T have to add tin to get a great fillout. That's right, you don't. While I still prefer a little tin in most of my alloys, you really don't need much. If you casted with some alloy that truly contained no tin, you'd see why a little bit, even 1/4%, is helpful.

I would bet that the sizes and weights are pretty consistent too.

I don't understand why sharing something different would create such a confrontational attitude...That's because you didn't go try it with your fresh batch of Taracorp Magnum and a 390* mould. If you had, you'd be calling the OP all kinds of names not repeatable here. YOU are exactly the level of caster I'm trying to help out here.

For target bullets, I don't care if it has tin, arsenic, antimony, zinc, silver or unobtanium in it. I just want it to print small groups. If 8/3 @ 925 does it while regulating the mold temp to ~390 does it, I'm all for it. That's fine, but when your groups AREN'T small, wouldn't you like to know why so you can fix it? You have to know and care a little bit about what you're doing so you can develop the consistency in all things that leads to accuracy. That includes keeping your alloy at the temp it needs to remain consistent through the batch. Because of consistent alloy (which is more immune to overheating) and consistent casting conditions, that particular boolit of 357's will probably be very accurate within it's velocity limitations, although care must be used to load them without distortion.

Thanks for sharing.

For reference, how are you measuring you melt temp and mold temp?

357 showed us A way to make really good boolits, and like most ways to make really good boolits it's a narrow window.

I hope in some way this has helped someone understand more about alloy composition, pot temp, mould temp, and how they work or don't work together to make good boolits.

Gear

[Roundnoser]

So, what's your argument? That using an alloy with just about no tin and less than one percent antimony can tolerate higher casting temps? We already know that because of the relative oxidation rates of alloys having different compositions.

Gear

YEAH!!!...What he said! Errr, uhhhh, I think...:???:

[swheeler]

357 nice looking bullets, you're doing something right!

[badbob454]

"If anyone was wondering what bullets cast with a hot pot look like, this is it."

That right there is what got me going. Many people will not take note of the second, and most important part:

"The alloy is 8/3, lead/WW. I expect it to harden to BHN 7-7.5, still very soft."

I know this, I've seen it happen here too many times. And I can most certainly go show you that boolits cast from WW alloy WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT look like that from a 925* alloy, and after the first couple of dozen they will have less and less tin in them, and will have different weights, sizes, hardness, and compositions by the end of the run. I'm trying to save some headaches for everybody here.

This isn't about sides, it's about pointing out some important facts about casting with different alloys, and those boolits in the pic are so nice looking they are likely to get the attention they deserve from casters that might not be using that kind of alloy, and not realize it makes a difference. Like I said, if it works for you, and it would work for me or anyone else with a similar, high-lead alloy, then great! I'm not pissing on anyone's parade. What I'm saying is 925* will create a disaster with typical boolit casting alloys containing 1-2% tin and 3-5% antimony, and I felt that needed to be pointed out.

I've run quite a few pure to near-pure lead slugs out of my pot, and never had a need to run the metal much over 725, but I've run it up to over 800 at times just because it doesn't dross out like WW metal. The trick to getting Minnies to fill out is all about the mould being hot enough, and a hot plate works great as a mould stand to keep it plenty hot anytime there isn't lead in it. If you run a hotter alloy, you can cast slower, but I've never seen the need to deal with the extra maintenance. The nice thing about casting with near pure lead is that you don't have to worry about much dross or burning out your tin and altering the alloy composition.

Gear

gearnasher do you cast one mold at a time or use 2-3 molds at a time i have to run hot and frost my bullets some i use ol drippy and dont have an accurate way to set my temp so should i use one mold and lower my temp slow down my pot for better fill out , or use 3 molds and just lower my temp? seems like it wont fill out good if my temp gets lower but is frosty if temp is up ? any help appreciated..... ps/ i use clip on lead ww and added 2% tin

[Recluse]

I have some aluminum molds that I intentionally run the pot hot because the molds tend to cool rather quickly. And then I have other aluminum molds in which they keep temps better/more consistently.

Steel/iron molds vary as well, depending on how many holes I'm pouring the silver stream into.

I remember going through survival school up at Fairchild AFB in Washington state. Couple of the instructors stressed that they'd teach us what we needed to know, but that there were often times more ways to achieve the same end means than what they had time to teach, or that possibly they even knew about.

A good example of their proven philosophy was in building a fire. LOTS of different ways to do that, but what matters is that you get it built and started. Gas, a cigarette lighter, flint/steel, bow, wood and swivel rock, lightning, pine pitch. . . all employ different techniques and I've heard people argue how one way is right and one way is wrong.

Hey, long as I had something to boil water over and to cook over and something to keep me warm, I could've drank turpentine and wee-wee'd on a brushfire for all I care. Bottom line was that I HAD a fire.

In shooting, I look more at results. I've had a few non-traditional or off-the-beaten-path techniques to achieve an end that no one else agreed with. At the end of the day, so long as the result was what I was seeking and there was no danger involved, the result was all that mattered.

There are a lot of variables just within our own alloys. I have no way of fully determining the exact molecular composition of ANY alloy I use. I can only "best guess," and that is based upon experience and knowledge and available resources.

Likewise, when I blend alloys to control my BHN, I'm still only giving it a WAG at the end of the day. An educated WAG, but still a WAG all the same.

I've got several molds that I regularly cast boolits out of with a pot temp that is around 925F. One of those boolits gives me MOA at 100 meters at better than 2400fps.

Am I gonna change the way I cast for THAT particular boolit and load? Hell, no. :)

:coffee:

[warf73]

Well said Recluse, I also have a few molds that have to be ran in the 900* range to keep the heat in the mold.

Boolit molds are like gun barrels there each onto themselfs.

[geargnasher]

gearnasher do you cast one mold at a time or use 2-3 molds at a time i have to run hot and frost my bullets some i use ol drippy and dont have an accurate way to set my temp so should i use one mold and lower my temp slow down my pot for better fill out , or use 3 molds and just lower my temp? seems like it wont fill out good if my temp gets lower but is frosty if temp is up ? any help appreciated..... ps/ i use clip on lead ww and added 2% tin

Regardless of the number of moulds you use, the temperature of the blocks is what will directly determine boolit quality (weight and diameter consistency, quality of fillout, same "temper" from consistent cooling rate, etc.), not alloy temperature. The reason to maintain the alloy at about 100 degrees above liquidus is because it is usually best for the alloy itself, which indirectly affects the boolits. The "indirect" effect of keeping pot temp to just 100 degrees or so above melt point of the alloy is it keeps the oxidation to a minimum, and since tin oxidizes faster than lead or antimony, an overheated pot will change the Sb/Sn ratio, which can have a pretty drastic effect on the "toughness" of a boolit. I've shown here before that an overheated pot can "burn out" half its tin in a few minutes, and if you lose half the tin in the alloy you mention using you will lose 2-3 bhn points from the beginning of the session to the end 30 minutes later if you run the pot at 900 degrees. If you want the full explanation of why not to overheat your alloy, read the alloy section of the Lyman Cast Cullet Handbook #3. While I disagree with many of the things said in that book, the alloy section is pretty much spot on.

My experience has been that each mould has it's own preference for temperature with a given alloy, and with multiple moulds it's difficult to get it just right with any of them unless using identical or near identical moulds.

If you can cast fast enough to keep each mould up to good casting temp while using as many as three moulds at once, you're good! With really small boolits and moulds that lose heat at a tremendous rate, you may be limited to one mould at a time, but pouring 700 degree alloy into the mould over and over will be enough to keep any mould I've seen up to frosty temps unless you lollygag around. There is nothing wrong with a frosty boolit as long as it isn't pitted or sandblasted, if you can make them consistent so they shoot straight that's what matters.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Looks good to me. If you find that you are oxidizing your melt more than you like, you
can experiment with lower temps, unless that gives you other problems.

No single way to do this, the results speak for themselves. If you have them sized to
throat diam or +.001 or .002, with a good lube and proper stepdown from throat to groove
diameter, I can almost guarantee good results. :drinks:

Bill

[badbob454]

Regardless of the number of moulds you use, the temperature of the blocks is what will directly determine boolit quality (weight and diameter consistency, quality of fillout, same "temper" from consistent cooling rate, etc.), not alloy temperature. The reason to maintain the alloy at about 100 degrees above liquidus is because it is usually best for the alloy itself, which indirectly affects the boolits. The "indirect" effect of keeping pot temp to just 100 degrees or so above melt point of the alloy is it keeps the oxidation to a minimum, and since tin oxidizes faster than lead or antimony, an overheated pot will change the Sb/Sn ratio, which can have a pretty drastic effect on the "toughness" of a boolit. I've shown here before that an overheated pot can "burn out" half its tin in a few minutes, and if you lose half the tin in the alloy you mention using you will lose 2-3 bhn points from the beginning of the session to the end 30 minutes later if you run the pot at 900 degrees. If you want the full explanation of why not to overheat your alloy, read the alloy section of the Lyman Cast Cullet Handbook #3. While I disagree with many of the things said in that book, the alloy section is pretty much spot on.

My experience has been that each mould has it's own preference for temperature with a given alloy, and with multiple moulds it's difficult to get it just right with any of them unless using identical or near identical moulds.

If you can cast fast enough to keep each mould up to good casting temp while using as many as three moulds at once, you're good! With really small boolits and moulds that lose heat at a tremendous rate, you may be limited to one mould at a time, but pouring 700 degree alloy into the mould over and over will be enough to keep any mould I've seen up to frosty temps unless you lollygag around. There is nothing wrong with a frosty boolit as long as it isn't pitted or sandblasted, if you can make them consistent so they shoot straight that's what matters.

Gear

many thanks i will save this in my reloading/ casting room my frosty bullets shoot great but i wish i could make pretty boolits like the pics in this discussion , perhaps a compromise will do thanks for your time and good sound advice badbob

[badbob454]

Looks good to me. If you find that you are oxidizing your melt more than you like, you
can experiment with lower temps, unless that gives you other problems.

No single way to do this, the results speak for themselves. If you have them sized to
throat diam or +.001 or .002, with a good lube and proper stepdown from throat to groove
diameter, I can almost guarantee good results. :drinks:

Bill

many thanks bill i will lower my temp of the metal and try it

[snuffy]

I have been following what gear has been preaching, low melt temps with hot molds. It works! Minimal oxide formation, little or no lost tin.

Last night I cast some big boolits. 44 mag 310 grainers, and 501-440 grainers for the 500 S&W.

I cooked up an alloy that was approx. 75% lino to 25% nearly pure lead. My guess it is near lyman #2, maybe a bit harder. So it contains lots of tin and antimony. I didn't do a hardness test yet, will wait a couple weeks, then do one. These were air cooled, a few pics. I can barely scratch the boolit with my thumbnail.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0294.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0291.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0290.JPG

I have a PID controller, and a laser digital temp for the molds. Since these are both lee molds, AND they're BIG boolits, the molds get hot quick and stay hot a long time. So I used both, alternating between the 2. I actually had to leave them open while casting with the other. If I rushed or left one closed, I got severe frosting, but not over the whole boolit.

I was running the lead @ 690, I could have gone cooler. The molds were pre-heated on my walgreens hot plate. I got 325 on the black mold handles, then started casting. First boolits were keepers. I didn't monitor the mold temps during casting, they're only approximate anyway.

Once fluxed the lead stayed nice and clean on top. Meaning little or no scum build-up. This is a 20# lee pro-20, using it as a bottom pour. As long as I got the stream into the center of the sprue hole, and formed a good sprue puddle, I got complete fill-out.

I used to believe that the lead had to be real hot to get consistent boolits. Frosting or at least dull gray boolits had to be lived with to get good fill-out. No more! I'll keep the lead cooler, takes less power anyways, and run hot molds, get great boolits.

[Gohon]

an overheated pot can "burn out" half its tin in a few minutes, and if you lose half the tin in the alloy you mention using you will lose 2-3 bhn points from the beginning of the session to the end 30 minutes later if you run the pot at 900 degrees.

If that were correct then the 2% tin I add to WW should raise the BHN 2-3 BHN points above what it would have been without adding the tin to the mix.............but it doesn't? Both still come out 11-12 BHN.

[geargnasher]

If that were correct then the 2% tin I add to WW should raise the BHN 2-3 BHN points above what it would have been without adding the tin to the mix.............but it doesn't? Both still come out 11-12 BHN.

Actually, an alloy containing 2% antimony and 1/4% tin tests about 9.5 bhn with my tester, add 1.5% tin and it goes to just over 11. Maybe not three points with WW-type metal, but within the range of WW alloy it can certainly make a difference. Most wheel weight alloy at 2-3% antimony and half a percent tin tests at around 13, add 1.5% tin and it tests at 14.3. I've run over this many times as I struggled to answer the question once and for all for myself: "Do I really need to add tin to my WW?". My conclusion after much testing was that the tin made the WW boolits tougher and slightly, very slightly, harder, and increased the useable velocity quite a bit without making them too brittle, so when I add tin these days it's for downrange performance, not for better fillout when casting. If you use the right technique, you don't need much tin at all for casting.

If you're using an alloy (like most range scrap I get) that has 1.5% antimony and no tin, it will test at around 7-8 BHN. Add 1.5% tin and it goes to 10 bhn. A larger change in the low end. You're right that in the alloys made much above 11 BHN from their antimony content alone the addition or subtraction of tin makes less of a difference to tested hardness, but it still makes a great deal of difference to other things like hollow-point expansion and velocity limits.

Gear

[Von Gruff]

This has been a very interesting serries of posts and has given me an insight into a couple of issues I have had at times.

Gear, your posts, with well reasoned explanations are apreciated. Now I have to go cast some.

Von Gruff.

[357shooter]

Lot's of good info. The only thing I cast/load/shoot is 357 magnum. All at an indoor range. So I test and tweak to see what works the best, without having to deal with bigger moulds etc...

I've seen pictures of groups shot off-hand that are better than I can shoot off a rest. But I keep testing and tweaking, cause it's fun.

I'm happpy with the results using the approach of soft lead and the 168 and 200 SWC's cast at right around 900 degrees. Even going to 850 starts to round the base and grooves.

Here's 5 rounds of 168 Keith at BHN 6, cast at 900 degrees loaded over 5.1 grains of 700X at 25 yards off a rest (rolled up carpet): (note: I'm not claiming this is the best group ever shot, but I get these results with the process outlined. I'm sure other approaches work well too.)

I'll continue to refine the approach that's working for me. Testing moulds, testing diameters, gas checks, and alloys has led me to this point. That includes WW, water dropping, heat treating, super hard with WW, with pure lead, binary alloys etc..

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/prgallo/700XTests011.jpg

[kelbro]

That load 5.1 - 700X load works well in two of my 357 pistols. Soft lead and FWFL.

[geargnasher]

.357, I should thank you , too, for throwing out there a different way of doing things. Very useful for someone who only has one or two pistols he casts for and has a lot of softer scrap to work with. My approach would be to sweeten a weak alloy with at least a little tin or maybe some 'type metal, so it would be a bit tougher and flow better at lower temps, but you proved you don't necessarily need to do that, didn't you? That in itself might help someone who's on a real tight budget somewhere that the scrap scrounging is poor.

If your alloy won't fill out at 850 then you do what you need to to make it work. I still maintain that if you ran your mould at 425 degrees and your alloy at 750 you might get the same results, but since you don't have much tin/antimony to conserve your drossing isn't likely to be all that severe. Besides, who can argue with your targets and the pics of your boolits?

Gear

[yobohadi]

Lot's of good info. The only thing I cast/load/shoot is 357 magnum. All at an indoor range. So I test and tweak to see what works the best, without having to deal with bigger moulds etc...

I've seen pictures of groups shot off-hand that are better than I can shoot off a rest. But I keep testing and tweaking, cause it's fun.

I'm happpy with the results using the approach of soft lead and the 168 and 200 SWC's cast at right around 900 degrees. Even going to 850 starts to round the base and grooves.

Here's 5 rounds of 168 Keith at BHN 6, cast at 900 degrees loaded over 5.1 grains of 700X at 25 yards off a rest (rolled up carpet): (note: I'm not claiming this is the best group ever shot, but I get these results with the process outlined. I'm sure other approaches work well too.)

I'll continue to refine the approach that's working for me. Testing moulds, testing diameters, gas checks, and alloys has led me to this point. That includes WW, water dropping, heat treating, super hard with WW, with pure lead, binary alloys etc..

Good looking boolits and great results from the looks of those targets. Out of curiosity do you know the velocities you are getting with these out of your 357 mag over the 5.1 grains of 700x? Any leading to speak of?

[Recluse]

I've found that each of my molds has a "sweet spot" in terms of temperature given a particular blend of alloy. The temperature concerns both mold and alloy. Once I find that sweet spot, I stick with it.

Last night, after the game, I was casting some .225. I was using an alloy that is higher in lino and tin, and I kept the melt down to between 650 and 700F. I was having to beat hell out of the mold to get the boolits to drop. They were fine, and good looking boolits, but I was having a hard, hard time getting them to fall easily.

I raised the allow temp by around 50 degrees, and it only took a very light tap for the boolits to fall out.

Inspecting the boolits, I could see no discernible difference between the ones cast at 650/700 degrees and the ones cast at 750. The mold I was using was a Lyman steel mold.

When I know I'm going to run the furnace much hotter than I usually prefer or in comparison to other boolit/mold combinations, I flux heavily and leave the burnt flux on top of the melt to reduce oxidation. Lot of folks use clay kitty litter to achieve the same means.

I believe there is as much art involved in casting as there is science. Science can explain why I get a cold, but science cannot cure that cold. I have my own devices they greatly reduce the duration of a cold--but science says they shouldn't work. All I know is that they work for me.

Which is good, because nothing makes me crankier than having a cold or casting bad boolits.

:coffee:

[Doby45]

Colds are of the devil, as are poorly cast boolits.

[prs]

I've been guilty of telling noobs that "Heat is your friend." They seem to be afraid to crank it up a bit and get boolits flawed due to their molds either not ever getting up to temp or losing heat during the session since they may be casting a bit slow. I also prefer frosted boolits, but as WWs become more rare, I may have to accept shiny range scrap boolits. But, Gear makes such a good and sensible case that I will temper my advice with the explanation that excessive heat of the alloy is not so friendly and then point out ways to pre-heat and retain the heat of molds during use. Tin is $ and I am cheap; sure don't want to waste what little may be in the brew.

prs

[357shooter]

Good looking boolits and great results from the looks of those targets. Out of curiosity do you know the velocities you are getting with these out of your 357 mag over the 5.1 grains of 700x? Any leading to speak of?

No leading with any load using the 168 Keith. Accuracy with 11.8-12.0 grains of H110 is also good, but about 1/4 inch bigger than the picture, no leading with that either. 700X at 3.2 shoots well too. 2400 works well but loses a little accuracy compared to H110.

I can only derive a velocity from the Hodgdon jacketed recipe since I don't have access to a chronograph. So on paper, assuming cast runs about 120FPS faster than jacketed (in a 357) it would be 1,200FPS. So depending on how your revolver shoots compared to their data, just adjust.

700X seems to really love heavy lead, where HP38/W231 works best with lighter bullets.

[357shooter]

.357, I should thank you , too, for throwing out there a different way of doing things. Very useful for someone who only has one or two pistols he casts for and has a lot of softer scrap to work with. My approach would be to sweeten a weak alloy with at least a little tin or maybe some 'type metal, so it would be a bit tougher and flow better at lower temps, but you proved you don't necessarily need to do that, didn't you? That in itself might help someone who's on a real tight budget somewhere that the scrap scrounging is poor.

If your alloy won't fill out at 850 then you do what you need to to make it work. I still maintain that if you ran your mould at 425 degrees and your alloy at 750 you might get the same results, but since you don't have much tin/antimony to conserve your drossing isn't likely to be all that severe. Besides, who can argue with your targets and the pics of your boolits?

GearThanks, the discussion has worked out well. I've learned a bunch too.

This particular alloy (8/3 lead/WW) is a test using WW to sweeten the lead. I do really like a binary alloy, but keep trying to make productive use of 50lbs of WW on hand. Also have some super hard from testing alloys cast with it. That will get used somehow too I'm sure.

I will say that everything I test get's judged by how it affects groups. If groups are smaller with cooler alloy than hot. I'll adopt it in my process. If they are equal, but improve something else in the process, such as dropping easier. I'll adopt it in my process. If it does neither I ignore it as a consideration when casting. The last time I tested temps, well you can see what worked.

It would make sense that my focus on 357/38 exclusively would produce a different outcome than if I was working with larger calibers. Just a thought. Added later: My single goal is accuracy at the range. No hunting at all. That also feeds into how we may evaluate results differently. Maybe, maybe not.

With the digital mould thermometer I'm looking forward to testing all combination's again. The results can work nicely input into a spreadsheet. :)

With all that said, I enjoy the "art" or craftsmanship side of casting/handloading/shooting as much as the technical aspect. Recluse mentioned it, and did good to make sure that point didn't get lost in all techie talk.

There are lot's of days at the range just shootin' up the place and having fun too.

[badbob454]

Amen....

[kbstenberg]

This thread will be put in my stcky file. Thank you Gear an 357
Kevin

[Salmon-boy]

I was definitely in the hotter-the-better category, then I read more than a couple of posts on this site...

As far as I'm concerned, Gear's got some good info here.. Consistency.. He's saying the same thing multiple ways, and demonstrates the effects multiple ways.. Having cast aluminum, he's right. Excessive heat will cause other problems.

Personally, I'll take his advice over "what works for me" posts. I've learned alot here.. Actually, I keep learning all kinds of things here... Some of it's been from him, so I'll take note.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

gear,

just got some bad news for you man. Your application for moderator has been rejected due to some unresolved social skills issues...

I read somewhere if you can't say something positive here, just stay away from the keyboard.

regards,

Rich
all burners on high, and target accuracy.

[357shooter]

This thread will be put in my stcky file. Thank you Gear an 357
KevinGlad it worked itself out and it was useful.

[Bret4207]

This is a good discussion. I understand where Gear was coming from. I get the same way every single time I see some guy start talking about HARDCAST or Bhn before he's even cast a single boolit! If nothing else this is a good example of melting up what you have, casting good looking boolits and getting good results. Thats what it's all about, isn't it?

[357shooter]

Focusing 100% on 357 magnum accuracy is probably the most significant difference between the process I use and what others talk about, including Gear. This is an assumption on my part and I apologize if it's wrong.

After reading a bunch on casting for 44 magnum I'm comfortable saying that what works well for it may work OK in 357 magnum. But not the best. An example is which alloy's work the best and are the most accurate. They are different.

Out of the 12,000 cast bullets that I load and shoot each year, 99% are with the 357 and 1% are the same bullets with a 38 snubnose. I think most people cast and load several calibers, then assume what worked best in one also works best in the other.

That's true to a point.

However, after testing each alloy (BHN, some binary, some not), at each size, with each mould (well, at least a dozen) at each diameter , with and without gas checks the process I use is tailored for 357 magnum so much so that it doesn't all apply to other calibers. I believe this is a true statement.

It may work well with other caliber that are close in size. But something like 44 mag is a different beast altogether. That's the best example I know of and seems to be one that a lot of folks here are familiar with. So for example, while the impact of heat may have negative affects when casting the best alloy for 44 magnum. I doesn't in 357 magnum, because the alloy that shoots best isn't negatively impacted from the heat, because it's a different alloy.

I'm purposely focusing with the caliber to see how far this can go, without being influenced by the characteristics of other diameter bullets and what works best for those calibers.

Just my final thoughts on this subject. YMMV

[unclebill]

man alive
it will take me a while to digest all i have learned from this thread.
thanks fellas!

[bigjake]

I have an old lyman bottom pour pot. The thermostat isnt working properly, so I cant rely on the temp numbers. anyway, the only way the WW melt will come out in a straight stream is to crank it up all the way. I ran the right size drill through the spout to clean out the rust. Where can I get a new thermostat? At what temp does the top of the melt turn blue?
As far as frosty boolits are concerned, I like them, they hold the liquid alox much better. But the shiny boolits sure are beeeutiful. :grin:

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

When I know I'm going to run the furnace much hotter than I usually prefer or in comparison to other boolit/mold combinations, I flux heavily and leave the burnt flux on top of the melt to reduce oxidation. Lot of folks use clay kitty litter to achieve the same means.

Thanks Recluse,
I do the same thing...Flux, stir, then leave the dross dust and then add more wood shavings to leave about 1/2" insulating layer. I do try to cast at temps that Gear and others have mentioned in this post (below 700º)...and many other posts, thanks gear.
but sometimes a mold just doesn't stay hot enough at my casting tempo or the mold itself, especially small caliber molds (then I try to stay under 800º). I have a hotplate, I just haven't made a place for it and hooked it up yet. I plan to next time I cast some RG2 and RG4 molds that I have.
Jon

[casterofboolits]

There is a wealth of information here and I wish we had the internet and a site like this when I started casting in the early 70's. I used Lyman as my bible and also did a lot of trial and error and learned that boolit size was king and you didn't need a rock hard alloy to reduce leading.

I had a cast boolit business for over twenty years and hand cast several million boolits. My goal in developing the alloy I used was consistancy. The boolits I sold were always +/- one grain of advertised weight.

Wheelweights were next to free and linotype/monotype was fifteen to twenty cents a pound and was common as printing houses were selling it off. I once had a 1,000 pound barrel of monotype delivered to my door for $220.00. A friend brought me 3,000 pounds of machine weights. Basicly pure lead for free.

I think what's happening today is the lack of cheap wheel weights and printers lead which make us casters try to cast aceptable boolits with any lead we can get our hands on. So we try to make our stash of wheel weights stretch as far as possiable.

If a caster gets aceptable results for his fire arms, no matter how he gets there. More power to him. It may not work for me, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. At least that's what my Dad taught me. He used to trap feral cats as a kid and sold the skins to Banjo makers!

[unclebill]

Wheelweights were next to free and linotype/monotype was fifteen to twenty cents a pound and was common as printing houses were selling it off. I once had a 1,000 pound barrel of monotype delivered to my door for $220.00. A friend brought me 3,000 pounds of machine weights. Basicly pure lead for free.

!

i have never laid eyes on linotype or monotype(whatever that is) in my life
and tire shops refuse to sell the WW.

[jhalcott]

YEP! You gotta read the ENTIRE submission AND under stand it. Then go to work with the same care as reloading ammo. If I post I'm using 35 grains of powder and don't tell you which powder, it wouldn't make sense for you to put 35 grains of ANY powder in the case. you gotta KNOW the details.

[onondaga]

I like big pictures, Don't change the size on my account.

Your bullets are too shiny for my liking. Yea, shiny is pretty to a lot of casters but to me it looks like your mold was too cold whatever your metal temperature was.

I get best fill-out when my mold is hot enough to get a slight even frost covering on my bullets. This also gives me the largest as cast diameter, length and weight.

One of my personal habits is to mark each box for each mold with a label that tells the alloy I use for the mold, the pot heat setting with 12 pounds in the pot and the amount of seconds to dip the mold corner to bring it up to temp for casting. You would be surprised at the differences in the labels but most of my aluminum molds like 22 seconds to get the first bullets just a little frosty and have good fill-out and keep going.

Gary.

[357shooter]

I like big pictures, Don't change the size on my account.

Your bullets are too shiny for my liking. Yea, shiny is pretty to a lot of casters but to me it looks like your mold was too cold whatever your metal temperature was.

I get best fill-out when my mold is hot enough to get a slight even frost covering on my bullets. This also gives me the largest as cast diameter, length and weight.

One of my personal habits is to mark each box for each mold with a label that tells the alloy I use for the mold, the pot heat setting with 12 pounds in the pot and the amount of seconds to dip the mold corner to bring it up to temp for casting. You would be surprised at the differences in the labels but most of my aluminum molds like 22 seconds to get the first bullets just a little frosty and have good fill-out and keep going.

Gary.Actually the bullets are on the verge of frosting. I get the largest diameter right in the temp sweet spot. Too cold or too hot and they get smaller. 10 degrees hotter in the mould and they would have been frosted.

So I guess, I agree. The picture came out better than I expected though, which is why I posted it.

Prior to this I did testing to find the temp that gives the maximum diameter, the chart is (I thought) pretty interesting.

If you go to http://357shooter.blogspot.com/ and scroll past the first post and chart, the second one shows the effects of mould temp on diameter.

[geargnasher]

I used to be in the "crank up the heat" camp. However, thanks to Gear, I've come to realize that mould temperature is what matters most.

The third edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook has an excellent chapter, by Dennis Marshall -- whom I believe is a metallurgist -- titled The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys. The more I read it, the more I learn.


I do crank up the pot, in some cases. My 313640 RG4 need to be cast hot. This is because it is so hard to keep the mould hot. It also uses so little lead that those big block a cool too quickly.
I find that once you get the mould hot everything else is simple. It is getting the mould up to temp that is critical. Use a hot plate, dip it in the melt, or just cast some. Whatever you do, get that baby HOT.
Maybe we need to see more emphasis on a mould thermometer than on a melt thermometer?

I also think some of this is the ancient wisdom that has been handed down that says only shiny bullets shoot well. Frosty was considered bad.

I love frosty bullets. They have good fill out. They shoot well for me. They work. Shiny ones do not.

Good post Gear.

Brad


fair enough. :takinWiz:

but i appreciate gears insight as to why this works for him. and may not for me.


Those are great looking boolits, 357shooter.

I don't want to take sides.

Thanks to gearnasher, I no longer have so much dross all the time, though. I also found I was actually having trouble getting good fillout because my alloy was so hot and I had the spout on my pot opened up so much that there wasn't enough time for all the air to escape. This happened after I started getting the coordination to cast faster. I was just trying to speed things up, and I was actually going too hot with my pot to get that speed.


many thanks i will save this in my reloading/ casting room my frosty bullets shoot great but i wish i could make pretty boolits like the pics in this discussion , perhaps a compromise will do thanks for your time and good sound advice badbob


I have been following what gear has been preaching, low melt temps with hot molds. It works! Minimal oxide formation, little or no lost tin.

Last night I cast some big boolits. 44 mag 310 grainers, and 501-440 grainers for the 500 S&W.

I cooked up an alloy that was approx. 75% lino to 25% nearly pure lead. My guess it is near lyman #2, maybe a bit harder. So it contains lots of tin and antimony. I didn't do a hardness test yet, will wait a couple weeks, then do one. These were air cooled, a few pics. I can barely scratch the boolit with my thumbnail.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0294.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0291.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0290.JPG

I have a PID controller, and a laser digital temp for the molds. Since these are both lee molds, AND they're BIG boolits, the molds get hot quick and stay hot a long time. So I used both, alternating between the 2. I actually had to leave them open while casting with the other. If I rushed or left one closed, I got severe frosting, but not over the whole boolit.

I was running the lead @ 690, I could have gone cooler. The molds were pre-heated on my walgreens hot plate. I got 325 on the black mold handles, then started casting. First boolits were keepers. I didn't monitor the mold temps during casting, they're only approximate anyway.

Once fluxed the lead stayed nice and clean on top. Meaning little or no scum build-up. This is a 20# lee pro-20, using it as a bottom pour. As long as I got the stream into the center of the sprue hole, and formed a good sprue puddle, I got complete fill-out.

I used to believe that the lead had to be real hot to get consistent boolits. Frosting or at least dull gray boolits had to be lived with to get good fill-out. No more! I'll keep the lead cooler, takes less power anyways, and run hot molds, get great boolits.


This has been a very interesting serries of posts and has given me an insight into a couple of issues I have had at times.

Gear, your posts, with well reasoned explanations are apreciated. Now I have to go cast some.

Von Gruff.


I've been guilty of telling noobs that "Heat is your friend." They seem to be afraid to crank it up a bit and get boolits flawed due to their molds either not ever getting up to temp or losing heat during the session since they may be casting a bit slow. I also prefer frosted boolits, but as WWs become more rare, I may have to accept shiny range scrap boolits. But, Gear makes such a good and sensible case that I will temper my advice with the explanation that excessive heat of the alloy is not so friendly and then point out ways to pre-heat and retain the heat of molds during use. Tin is $ and I am cheap; sure don't want to waste what little may be in the brew.

prs


This thread will be put in my stcky file. Thank you Gear an 357
Kevin


I was definitely in the hotter-the-better category, then I read more than a couple of posts on this site...

As far as I'm concerned, Gear's got some good info here.. Consistency.. He's saying the same thing multiple ways, and demonstrates the effects multiple ways.. Having cast aluminum, he's right. Excessive heat will cause other problems.

Personally, I'll take his advice over "what works for me" posts. I've learned alot here.. Actually, I keep learning all kinds of things here... Some of it's been from him, so I'll take note.


YEP! You gotta read the ENTIRE submission AND under stand it. Then go to work with the same care as reloading ammo. If I post I'm using 35 grains of powder and don't tell you which powder, it wouldn't make sense for you to put 35 grains of ANY powder in the case. you gotta KNOW the details.

Rich, I'm sorry that you focus so much on my "social skills" and so little on what I have to say. You, too, might learn as much from me about casting as we learned form 357 and others on this thread, since it sounds like you're very stuck on your own casting paradigm.

I'm here to learn and to help others solve problems and understand more about what they're doing. From the above, it looks like there was a lot of learning going on, both about the way I do it and the way others do it.

Gear

[btroj]

Rich, I find Gear to be straight forward and honest. If I need a kick in the seat of the pants I expect he would give it to me. I respect that. I saw nothing here that was disrespectful at all. He just doesn't want potential misinformation to be spread without the necessary caveats.

Many others on this board appear terse in their comments. They just have strong opinions on matters. They voice their opinions freely, and I respect that even if I don't agree at times. I can handle the heat so to say. If I want the abridged version I will buy a commercial manual. I come here for hard core, hard nosed information.

Brad

[kbstenberg]

btroj I agree 100%

[462]

I was tempted to say something, when I read that post. Instead, I waited for Gear to defend himself, and he did so quite eloquently.

Idaho Sharpshooter needs to follow his own advise -- that which he mentioned in his second paragraph. If not, my Ignore List will necessarily grow.

I come here to learn and share and will not abide any disrespect shown another member.

[thx997303]

Perhaps if Idaho Sharpshooter had met Gear in person, he may come away with a different view of him.

[geargnasher]

Thanks for the kind words, Gentlemen. I only hope that if we find ourselves at war, that ALL of us here will be fighting on the same side, as many of you I know have fought for our country in foreign lands already.

Gear

[MT Gianni]

One of the great things about this thread is that those of us who use ww alloy for almost everything will have to replace it in a few years. When we do our casting methods will have to change to match our alloy. Just like when LY #2 was the only thing needed we will need some changes in our hobby in the next few years.