Home made Black Powder

[Fly]

I was reading the post below on this & I'm still amased at the lack of info &
myths on this form.I did a detailed tutorial on this subject here last summer.

Guys I have spent countless hours making testing & comparing differant
home made powders against the best Swiss, & Goex ect.

It is really not that hard to make powder that out performs those.In fact
in my search I ended up in Pyro fireworks making, along with my muzzle loaders.

I have been shooting these things since the late 1970's.I would have quit
shooting them all together if I had to use the other stuff.When it became
harder to find I desided to try & make my own.

At first I was dissapointed with the performance.But after much research &
testing it's not hard at all.In fact I'm hosting a performance test at this years
PGI.

What is the PGI you say.It is the largest pyro firework competition in the world.
There is everything from rockets to home made shells as you see at the best fire work displays.

We will have a seminar on making BP with a testing session after, of the best home made powders brought from all over the US.

Fly

[atom73]

Sounds great, post a link to the PGI so that we members who are interested can get in on the action. If you still have the link to your old tutorial, please post it. I am a self admitted rookie at bp but I really like the results that I have had. I will never buy bp again, it is fun, safe, cheap, and easy to make on your own.
Mike

[Fly]

Atom your doing it the hard way CVA.There is pros & con's to doing it that way.If I were
you I would go to Harbor Freight & but one of those $30 rock tumblers, to use for your ball
mill.

I have used one & they really can make good powder, but it takes longer.I ended making
my own ball mill.Fill your drum 2/3 full of 50 cal lead balls.Now if you cast your own, do it
with harder wheel weight lead than the pure lead we use in our front loaders.

It took me a while to figure out you really need 2/3 full jar of ball meda to grind the powder fine enough.

Do not fill the jar completely full with your powder comp.With those little jars it takes about
6 hour to grind it into like baby powder.

Formula is 75% KNO3 (salt peter) 15% charcoal & 10% sulfur.The type of Charcoal you use is very important.Black willow is the norm, but there are many other good charcoals also.

Now what you have coming out of your ball mill is called meal.There are three ways to
grandulate it.If you don't want to use water you can use denatured alky from the hard
ware store.

Add about 2% red gum powder as a binder & about 10% of the ALKY.Mix it in a plastic
bowl till you can roll it in a ball, like play doe.Lay out news paper & push it thew your
screen.

The screen your using is what I use & makes 3F.Let it dry for at least 24 hours.If you do
what I'm telling you to the letter you should have some real fast powder.

Now for the only down side to doing it as above.It will not be as dense as say Goex.
You will use much more per volume for the same power.

What you have is lighter powder BY WEIGHT.No big deal in a front loader.But in a cap & ball
revolver it can be.

What I do in using this form of powder is.Let's say you normally use 50 grains of Goex.Weigh
that 50 grains on a gram scale & note the weight.Then weigh your home made powder to the same weight as the Goex.You will
find you will have alot more volume for the same weight of Goex.

I just take a ole brass .308 case cut it to fit that extra volume.Now I only touched on one
way to make your powder.

I will post again & tell you another way you can make the same
meal powder & the same weight as Goex or the Swiss stuff.Just more work & I don't bother
unless I'm making it for my cap & ball revolver.

Fly

[Fly]

Ok so you you want your powder the same density as Goex.Make your meal
powder the same as above.

After you remove it from the ball mill set it a side for we are going to press
it into pucks.I have a alum 2 inch pipe I use for my sleave.I also have a 2 inch
short cut alum bar for my ram.

You could use 2 inch PVC plastic heavy wall tubing & a 2 inch wood dowel if
you like.But never use steel, iron, or any spark omitting materal for safety reasons.

I wet my meal from 2 to 5% with water.I then press it in my hydralic press
till you just feel it stop compressing & let it sit under compression for about
30 sec. Your pucks should be about 1/4 thick after pressing.There is no need for a binder when pressing.

You will most likly see water being squeesed out under the tube.Then I remove
the puck & set it on a drying screen.I made up some wood frames with window
screen for drying these pucks.

Let them dry for about 4 days.They will be hard as a rock.I break them up
in a heavy lock seal plastic bag with a brass hammer.

Black powder is NOT senitive to shock only sparks.Thats why I use BRASS
hammer.I would think you might try crushing them in the press also even
thow I never tryed that.

I then screen them as before & what won't past threw just crush again.The
real fine stuff I use for prime powder in my flint lock.

Now you can use this powder with your ole measure & not have to weigh
it as before.

Fly:coffeecom

[Nobade]

So you are saying you ball mill the oxidizer along with the fuel? I had always heard that is a good way to blow up your ball mill. I assume you are doing it outside away from your house?

[Fly]

Well I do it that way & most in pyro do.But I think if you feel the need to mill the oxdizer
by its self then do that, some do.The reason I don't is that drum is rubber & the meda
is lead.

But thats just me, it works both ways.I do mill mine out side in front of my shop.Two things
people should know about black powder.Bp has got a bad rap yor many years.The reason
sporting goods don't sell it much any more is for insurance reasons.

Remember two things here.BP will only explode under confinement, other wise it just burns,
but very fast I must say.

That why you can pore it on the ground in a line to a powder keg ', step back light it & watch
the trail of powder burn till it hits the powder keg & then BOOM!

The powder in the keg was confined & being it burns fast it has no where to vent & you get
explosion.

Remember keep it away from SPARK"S & excessive heat & you sould be fine.I know there
are always the ones that come on & post all these dangers & so on.

That just fine & I will close with this.We in the fireworks making, deal with so many things
with much more danger than BP.I go to the the most exstream to keep all this as safe as
possible.

I have know Idea how many lb I have made for my firework projects.It is the back bone
of what we do.No more than you guys use is a drop in the bucket.

But with that said, if you feel the risk is to high then by all means buy it instead.I never intended
to talk any one into making there own.I never started making mine to save money, it
was just the availabillty in buying it.

If you have any more questions let me know
Fly

[Nobade]

You bet I have more questions. And I certainly appreciate your taking the time on this forum to educate people on this subject, despite the opposition you have received. I have been wanting to make good quality powder for a long time now, recently tried to learn more by getting Ian Von Maltitz's book on the subject. But I was disappointed to find out that the whole printing run was messed up - they left out quite a few pages and printed several chapters multiple times.

I am glad to hear you have success milling everything together, since I had heard that was a certain way to disaster. Anything more you are willing to share will be well received, at least by me.

One subject that keeps coming up is charcoal. Is there a reasonably priced source of quality charcoal? Or is it again something that must be made at home? Living in New Mexico makes it a little hard to find suitable wood for making it, but it can be done if you are determined enough I would suppose.

Again, thanks for sharing and keep it coming!

[square butte]

Could you give a better description of your press set up? Are we talking hydraulic ram or just hand press?

[Fly]

Nobade let's start with your question first.Charcoal really does make a differance in how
fast powder burns.But if you would like to make your own as I do, a great wood
source is no further than your lumber yard.

As I said earlyer there are many good woods other than black willow.One right under
your nose is white pine.It makes a great fast powder.Stay away from yellow pine for
gun powders.

We do use yellow pine for some of our effects, but not for fast powder.It's marked which
is which at Lowes.

Boy I could spend alot of time on charcoals but I'm not going to.One other thats super fast
& better than willow is balsa, but alot harder to come by.OK one more is cotton wood &
you do have it growing in NM around streams rivers & lakes.

As for my press, it is just a stand up hydraulic shop press like is in most shops.I made a
frame & use a bottle jack that pushes the ram.There again Harbor freight, Northen Tool
or any tool supply has them.

A 5 ton is more than enough for this.I have seen some as cheap as $100.You will find
many uses for them other than pressing powder.

Fly

[waksupi]

How does the homemade compare in benchrest testing? I've had one lot of commercial powder that was definitely below par on accuracy. I suppose the home made is some what hit and miss for consistent quality?

[Fly]

Well the pressed home made powder is much more consistent than the none.But if your
splitting hairs I can't really answer that.I would think your over the counter powder would
get the thumbs up on that one.

You know whats really hard to compare in what your asking, is when there tested.Black
powder draws moisture & in my testing I have seen change from day to day with the
same powder tested the day before.

Commercial powder is no different in that comparison.But you most likly no much more than
I on that question.Most of my testing was for power & not accuracy.

I can only contest to shooting my own guns & that is the only result I can give you on that.

Fly

[waksupi]

Well the pressed home made powder is much more consistent than the none.But if your
splitting hairs I can't really answer that.I would think your over the counter powder would
get the thumbs up on that one.

You know whats really hard to compare in what your asking, is when there tested.Black
powder draws moisture & in my testing I have seen change from day to day with the
same powder tested the day before.

Commercial powder is no different in that comparison.But you most likly no much more than
I on that question.Most of my testing was for power & not accuracy.

I can only contest to shooting my own guns & that is the only result I can give you on that.

Fly

Well, until you can get consistency in accuracy, I will have to keep this on the back burner as emergency use only, then. With inferior powder, I was hard pressed to keep a 6" group at 25 yards, and I hardly consider a group larger than what can be shot with bow and arrow as acceptable, even in a survival situation. I will be interested to hear what you can come up with for consistency. I believe the graphite glaze is one of the factors in your moisture variations. If you can come up with a means and formula to produce consistent good quality powder, We will build a statue to you! ;-)

[357maximum]

FLY


I never had great consistency in POWER using gum.


How I got there:

Realllly good charcoal made from short lengths of 1 to 2 inch saplings of "crack" willow or "black" willow...........with the bark mostly removed. When the charcoal is "right" it will have a colorful metallic sheen to the chunks before you break them up.

I milled all components bulk / dry/ and seperately until they would pass through a 200 sized scientific screen.

I then measured out then added the Kno3/S/Charcoal components together and ran them for 1/2 day slightly wetted into a thin paste with stale urine aged in a clean glass pickle jar for 20 plus days. You only want the liquid not the fats/lipids/goo that settles out of the urine.


I finally got my consistency by running the ball mill wet with the following two components present as a 2 hr final step before pucking up the powder.

To a 3lb batch using the standard 75/15/10 recipe:

I added 2.5cc fine graphite. I also added 4cc orange shellac flakes with just enough denatured alcohol to dissolve the flakes. I added this in the 2 hr final "WET" cycle in the ball mill. My ball mill was BIG and made of heavy wall plastic gas main. I would imagine that any 8 inch plus diameter heavy duty schedule 40+ plastic pipe mounted on my motorized skateboard assembly would work though.

My powder came out looking/acting real similar to wano shuetzen powder and I am rather proud of it. I used a combo of .69 and .490 caliber RB made from ww in my 80% full mill. If at any point you have got it too wet...let it dry out back to putty stage. When you waste liquid you waste ooomph.

I do not make any BP anymore but I had to KNOW how to do it and I am glad to KNOW how to make real good BP. I still have the components to do another 15-20 lbs if I ever choose to. I would need to remake my PUCK PRESS though...I blew the side out of my PVC version on my last batch.


My sinus tract is severely agitated by the fine milled and raw rubbermakers sulfur by the way..be careful. I have about 15 lbs of my homemade left and I have quit "wasting" it on "cool" and "neat" things[smilie=1: that need a canon fuse ....so for muzzleloader use only it will last me a long time.

[Fly]

Well you seem to know alot more than me on such things.But I can tell you this.I killed a
very nice six point at about 75 yards with my flinter this year.

The powder was my gumed & I promiss I never piss in my powder.I make as stated above.

Fly

[357maximum]

There are many...many...many ways to skin a cat. And I tried several.........as long as you are happy that is what is important. Who knows...I very well could have done it wrong, had too much or not enough gum.

:takinWiz: on your powder or down your barrel will not hurt it ya know. [smilie=l:

[perotter]

How does the homemade compare in benchrest testing? I've had one lot of commercial powder that was definitely below par on accuracy. I suppose the home made is some what hit and miss for consistent quality?

If you want consistent quality, you do as they did years ago(still?). You blend multiple batches to make up a single lot.

[perotter]

For myself, I like to learn how to do things when I have time. Then I can say, "What emergency are you talking about?".

[waksupi]

If you want consistent quality, you do as they did years ago(still?). You blend multiple batches to make up a single lot.

I don't believe that is the solution for a high quality powder. Not only do you need to do the process,you need to know which part of the process makes the best powder, and how to repeat it.

[Fly]

Well fellows my powder serves me well.Not only is it less than $1 a lb, I'm making & shooting it.
It, makes hunting & shooting just much more enjoyable FOR ME.

I have a friend that makes his own lone bows from bowark trees if thats how it,s spelled.Jason
even makes his own arrows & arrow heads from flint that I find him around my parts of the woods
where I live.

I also like hunting with a flinter & never cared for one of these new so called bp rifles.I say
to each his own.
Take care
Fly

[waksupi]

Thanks for your process info, Mike. It sounds like you are doing the experimenting that needs done to find the best method. If you can't do it with quality, no need to bother.

[perotter]

http://www.vk2zay.net/composition/3


"Commercial production of BP is said to source its charcoal from mixed hardwoods and compensates for variations in the feedstock by blending different particle size fractions and/or BP batches to achieve consistent results."

Also for some modern science on this:

http://www.vk2zay.net/article/74

[Fly]

Why I bother coming here I have no clue.Piss in your powder, use hard wood for your charcoal.You can't make home made powder that shoots groups as close as a bow at
25 yards.
Sorry guys I'm done & go ahead & start the blasting, for I'm done
With this form!

Fly

[waksupi]

What on earth is he going on about?

[mooman76]

I was kind of curious myself. I was starting to get interested in giving BP a try and had a few questions.

[JIMinPHX]

Remember two things here.BP will only explode under confinement, other wise it just burns,
but very fast I must say.

That why you can pore it on the ground in a line to a powder keg ', step back light it & watch
the trail of powder burn till it hits the powder keg & then BOOM!

The powder in the keg was confined & being it burns fast it has no where to vent & you get
explosion.


That is not consistent with what I have been told by many different people. I have been told that black powder burns unless you have a pile that is big enough to support explosion, rather than combustion. I was always told that was one of the big differences between smokeless & black powders. Smokeless powder would only burn if not confined, while a sufficient quantity of black powder would detonate in open air.

I am not calling BS on what you have said, since I have not tested this myself. By the same token, I am not taking your statement as gospel until I find some more data to back it up.

I do find this interesting. I am listening with an open mind. Please do continue if you have more to share.

[JIMinPHX]

Why I bother coming here I have no clue.Piss in your powder, use hard wood for your charcoal.You can't make home made powder that shoots groups as close as a bow at
25 yards.
Sorry guys I'm done & go ahead & start the blasting, for I'm done
With this form!

Fly

On this forum, we tend to share our conflicting experiences on a given subject & then try to understand the causes of the differences. When someone here states something that conflicts with what you have said, they are usually not doing it with the intention of bashing you or calling you a liar. They are doing it in the hopes of figuring out what the cause for the conflict is. They are looking to expand the base of knowledge. This place actually tends to be pretty good that way.

I do understand how you might be sensitive to the presentation of conflicting information if you have been on some of the other forums that I have seen.

One route to making salt peter is through the use of a niter bed that is saturated with stale urine, so the addition of stale urine to a BP batch may have some purpose. I don't understand what it is at this point, but it may be worth investigating. There may be something to be learned.

[waksupi]

Quote from another black powder thread.

"This is the kind of open discussion I hoped for
when I started this thread."

Guess he got tired of the discussion.

[northmn]

I did not bother to say anything on this thread because he kind of went off on a question I had concerning what granulation he was using to get the extra power claimed on another thread. If someone makes claims that they have found method of doing something like this that is better than what is researched commercially I have questions. While commercial sources may have method limitations as in building longrifles, I still am curious. So I ask out of curiosity.

DP

[jmh54738]

While I will pass no judgment upon these processes, the use of stale urine is described in "Foxfire#5" (1979) ISBN0-385--14308-7. I quote, "I add just enough stale urine to make the batch "bunch" about like biscuit dough. The urine, substituted for the water, gives the powder more oxygen and higher performance."
The alcohol precipitation process of making improvised black powder is described in "Explosives and Propellants" (1982), ISBN 0-87947-227-8.