.58 caliber popularity question.

[Chris Smith]

I see all sorts of sabots, bullets, projectiles and sharp pointed objects for the 45 thru 54 caliber rifles but it's rare to see much for the .58. I own a Zoli replica of the Remington Zoauve and it is quite well made and shoots very well with round balls and ok with minne's. I know the rifling is a bit slow for heavy bullets but there are some on the market with faster twist and should do very well. Anyway, my question is why this caliber doesn't get the attention of the smaller bores? Does it not have a flat trajectory or less velocity? Seems like it would be good for anything you might encounter short of a big bear and I'm sure somewhere back in time a Grizzly met it's demise from a hunter with a surplus musket.

[daddywpb]

I agree! Not much selection for the big .58. I have T/C Renegades, one flint and one percussion, both in .58 and I love them. I use 100 grains FF Goex under .570 PRB with .018 pillow ticking in both - pretty easy to remember the load.:razz: We have a Bass Pro Shop and a Gander Mountain locally, and neither carry anything for .58.

[Hellgate]

I own a Zoli Zouave, a "Buffalo Hunter" (carbine style Zouave), a St. Louis Hawken in .58 and a Musketoon (see photo). I love the 58s. The only gun I don't have but still want is a T/C Big Boar. Maybe people are afraid of recoil with a 58 minie and a light gun. Note the slip on shotgun recoil pad on the 'Toon. I work up my .58 loads from a bench with a sandbag between my shoulder and the gun butt. When hunting you'll never notice recoil but multiple shots from the bench can create a flinch. The patched ball has no real recoil at all and is a great "thumper". I like the minie for elk and deer. The minies go through any deer lengthwise but hardly ruin any meat while leaving a 1-2" wound channel. I sight mine in to shoot about 5" high@50 yds to be right on at 100 yds. Im shoving lead with 90grs BP under the minies and 100-120 for the PRB. I haven't done any target load work up even though I have the molds. They do go through a lot of lead but geeze, how much shooting are we gonna get to do? There is not a lot of velocity loss from a short barreled 58 vs a 33 or 42" barrel. See Lyman BP Handbook & Loading Manual 2nd ed. One drawback in the 58s is there is a bit of variation in bore diameter. A couple of my guns take a larger diameter minie than 2 others. I have read somewhere that the 54 cal MLs have the best balance between powder used and velocity/energy produced. I've ruined a lot more meat with the '06 than the muskets.

[daddywpb]

The only gun I don't have but still want is a T/C Big Boar.

Thats what I was originally looking for too, until I saw what they were selling for on Gunbroker. $600 - $700 range. Wow! I bet when they came out nobody ever thought they would be able to sell them at that price. A bit out of my price range unfortunately.

[ironhead7544]

Navy Arms had a nice .58 Hawken type. Should have bought one of those but didnt. Had a thick barrel and IIRC could use 200 gr powder and a 600 gr bullet.

[Chris Smith]

I don't see recoil as a problem but then I am used to shooting a British .500 BPE double and a CZ .458 WM also. The minne's do kick a bit more than a round ball but like Hellgate said, in the field you never notice it. I don't even notice the noise when a critter is involved. Might be that it's like lots of other things that worked so good it never caught on. I looked at a H&R 58 once. Can't recall for sure but I think it had a straight stock and was quite light. Could have got it for about 170 dollars and passed. Oh well.

[Alan]

Many years ago I had a .58 Huntsman. I shot it a bit with PRB, and some Lyman #57730 Minies (570 gr iirc). It would purely stomp a mudhole in you with the minies and 90 gr. of 3f.

I never shot it a lot, HATED the cheezy extendable brass ramrod, and eventually sold it to my baby brother, and he loaned it to someone and never got it back.

Currently I have a Pedersoli Kodiak double .58, which I just bought used. It might even be one of the old Trail Guns Armory models, since it is not marked. A .58 PRB will shoot much flatter over hunting ranges than a Minie, and kicks a lot less doing it. At a given velocity, it will shoot flatter than smaller balls - as the size of a RB increases, so does the BC, even though the sectional density is exactly the same.

Using a .560 PRB, Lyman went all the way up to 180 gr. of Gearhart Owen FFg in a 32" Zouave barrel for 1737fps and 9200LUP. The same charge of C&H gave 1625fps and 6500LUP.

I've fired mine w/ 110gr. of Goex FFg so far with a .570 RB and 0.15" denim patches, and the barrels are still crossing impact at 50 yards. I'm going to keep working upwards, but I may switch to Fg soon to help keep pressures low. My ideal velocity will be ~1550 - 1600fps, which should shoot fairly flat to 100-125, and flatten any hogs I happen to meet here in Texas or Louisiana.

This ball and patch combo is a little tough to load, but I've been using my .50 short starter. I need to make something a little more substantial for the .58 and my .72 Gibbs.

I tried to order a GM .58 barrel for my T/C Renegade, but they are out of stock everywhere, and no one can give an estimate on a new manufacturing run. I'm sorely tempted to just send the gun to Ed Rayle and let him build me a .58 or even a .62 long and heavy enough to make a 9 1/2 or 10 lb rifle with a nice slow RB twist.

Getting back to projectiles, all you need is a RB mould of a suitable size for your rifle. If you want to shoot something big that might bite back, just cast them out of WW. Nothing on this continent will stand up to a hard cast .58 RB moving 1200-1400 fps with decent shot placement.

[daddywpb]

Alan,
The Trail Guns Armory Kodiaks are marked on the barrel. I just sold mine. Could never get it to group well enough to hunt with. Fun gun to shoot though.

[northmn]

I have a 58 English sporting rifle I am building in the "little" 58 or 24 bore (English view) A lot fo what we see is the industry's attempt to standardize the 50. The 58 actually has an excellent selction of projectiles made for it. If someone wanted more power than the 50 and wanted to shoot slugs they could have made 58 rifles that used the offerings from LYman and Lee in minnies. Instead they standardized the 50 so that they could sell some of the ridiculous offerings in that caliber for "modern" ammunition. I have a 50 I have shot deer with and like it. It is probably as good of a deer rifle as any, but for those that want more power the 58 is an excellent choice. My 58 likes a 570 or 575 round ball in front of 90-100 grains 2f Swiss. The bigger round ball carry down range better than the small ones and do not need quite the MV. Also a 280 + or - grain round ball is pretty fromidible.

DP

[Alan]

My kodiak is grouping individual barrels well, but it is crossing. It does look like at worst I will be able to sight the best shooting barrel for 100 or 125 yards, and the other one for 75. The .72 I had would have required replacement of the sights to be able to get the left barrel zeroed. it was hitting more than a foot to the left at 50 yards with the rear all the way to the right. I returned the .72 to Dixie and exchanged it for a .72 Gibbs. The weather and my new job have conspired to keep me from shooting it yet.

Alan

[Chris Smith]

In some very informal testing I did with gallon water jugs at 50 yards has shown that the minne will split the jug and make a good splatter of water but the round ball will really hammer the jug and leave small pieces. This was done with 70 grains of 3f. Might be because of a larger frontal area of the round ball.

[Hellgate]

Chris,
Larger frontal area and more velocity giving extra kinetic energy with probable more deformation and transfer of energy to the water than a sharper, slower minie going right through. If you were shooting a 55gal drum of H2O maybe the minie would throw more water or go all the way through. I'd rather hit a moose with the minie than with the PRB but maybe someone who's done it could give a more true answer based on experience.

[RBak]

Thats what I was originally looking for too, until I saw what they were selling for on Gunbroker. $600 - $700 range. Wow! I bet when they came out nobody ever thought they would be able to sell them at that price. A bit out of my price range unfortunately.

WOW! $600 to $700 is huge piece of change, at least for this old boy.
Seeing this kinda helps me understand why it took me so dadburn long to come up with one....I looked for one for years, starting long before they ever became popular, and I still wouldn't have one if I had to pay that price.

Anyway, the Big Boar is a good shooter, or at least mine is.
It shoots both round-ball and conicals equally well, and I have yet to destroy the skirt on any conical as my 1861 Colt is prone to do with a heavy charge....I don't even pretend to understand this, and even quit thinking about it. It is what it is, period.

With a patched .570 round ball, 90gr FFg Goex, and LeHigh Valley Lube, the difference in drop from the 50yd target to the 100yd target is about 9-10 inches...but it is consistent, I can count on it every time if I do my part.
In fact, with two pistol targets, hung one over the other, and me using the top target as a aiming point, my bottom target sometimes looks really good.....I ain't worth a hoot at "Kentucky elevation" or windage either for that matter, so if I have to wing it, things don't look quite so well at 100yds.

As far as why we don't see "sabots, bullets, projectiles and sharp pointed objects" for this caliber, I don't know why, but I would suspect it has to do with the slower twist that is typical for the many muskets of that caliber, but that is pure speculation on my part.

I can't help but wonder what the deal is with that $600 or $700....what are they saying about this gun to bring that kind of money?
But, then again, maybe I shouldn't be all that surprised after seeing the price of a new T/C Hawken....:veryconfu

Suspect I just need to get out more.

Russ

[FL-Flinter]

They say pictures are worth a thousand words ... Pic's kindly provided by client from his 2009 hunt, .58cal (0.570" PRB)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Testimonials/Kyle_R_Elk_hunt_2009_as_he_lay_2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/Testimonials/Kyle_R_Elk_hunt_2009_ball_before_af.jpg

[RBak]

Nice!
Meaning both gun and Elk. How long is that barrel?

Russ

[smoked turkey]

I also would like to come up with a Big Boar. However I agree with those who find the current selling prices on Gun Broker to be way to much for this old boy. I have a nice .58 Pedersoli Kodiak also marked "Trail Guns Armory" that I need to sell to finance other gun needs. I haven't worked with it enough to get it to regulate properly with my experience as Alan mentioned. I believe with the proper load work up they can be made to regulate properly. All that said I really do like the .58. The 57730 minnie is a stomper and the big boolit empties the pot fairly quickly. The power is awesome.

[Hellgate]

Smoked Turkey,
What part of what state did you connect with the elk? The timber looks like lodgepole pine and there ain't no lodgepole in "Missura". What does the 57730 look like? I have the 575213-OS and the 577611 both heavy skirted with the same pointy front end. Congrats on such a nice bull. My elk was a Roosevelt from the Orygun Coast Range and was a young cow but really good eating.

[Chris Smith]

Nice critter there. You can not argue with success like that.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Chris, you are wrong in that the Zolie Remington will not shoot a heavy ball because of twist. Minie's are heavy per caliber. Typically designed that way. I used the Lymans, new style and old style, and the RCBS 58-500 @ 530 grains in mine for years skirmishing. That's offhand shooting at 50 and 100 yards with great results ober a 40 grain charge of fffg Goex. The velocity was close to 840 fps, with about a 4" drop from 50 to 100. It will shoot through a deer too. At one time I shot the "stake bullet" and the 611 Lyman thick base bullet at over 600 grains and while ok for 50 were not accurate for me at 100. Neither was the little 58 SWC.

Most of these guns have similar twists or even slower, and power and accuracy is usually determined by bullet fit, bullet quality, lube, and charge selection. Yes , you can hold 12" at 200 offhand too.

Minie guns were meant to shoot the Minie'ball. BvT

[Chris Smith]

I have a Lee mold that has been abused somewhere in the past and it might be the reason minnie's dont do as well. It will keep them on the target at 100 yards but I think it might do a little better with a new mold. I got it used for 5 dollars. A new mold is on the list.

[northmn]

The Barons's comment about Minnie guns shooting minnies likely goes both ways as round ball barrels are meant to shoot round ball also. Musket shooters commonly like the 562 RB while I can shoot a 575 in my Green Mountain barrel. A RB barrel has a deep rifling depth of sometimes well over 010 where a slug barrel will be less. It seems like most report better accuracy with rounball even in a musket while use of slugs in a RB barrel sometimes gets iffy. The 58 RB can be loaded up pretty heavy and still give excellent accuracy. Most back off because of recoil. If I were to want more power than a 58 RB I would go up in bore size. A 600 RB in my 20 bore smooth rifle hits about 325 grains.

DP

[FL-Flinter]

Nice!
Meaning both gun and Elk. How long is that barrel?

Russ


Thanks! The barrel is 36" long straight octagon.

[FL-Flinter]

The Barons's comment about Minnie guns shooting minnies likely goes both ways as round ball barrels are meant to shoot round ball also. Musket shooters commonly like the 562 RB while I can shoot a 575 in my Green Mountain barrel. A RB barrel has a deep rifling depth of sometimes well over 010 where a slug barrel will be less. It seems like most report better accuracy with rounball even in a musket while use of slugs in a RB barrel sometimes gets iffy. The 58 RB can be loaded up pretty heavy and still give excellent accuracy. Most back off because of recoil. If I were to want more power than a 58 RB I would go up in bore size. A 600 RB in my 20 bore smooth rifle hits about 325 grains.

DP


Felt recoil has more to do with the gun design than pushing a PRB - a .58 T/C Hawken will kick the snot out of most shooters with a moderate 70-80gr powder charge while other gun styles will remain comfortable shooting with heavier charges - it's all in the style and how the gun fits the shooter.

PRB's will work just fine in barrels with shallower rifling grooves intended for conicals provided the patch/ball combination is adjusted accordingly. PRB barrels typically have deeper rifling grooves to allow for using thicker patch material but it's not required. I have obtained excellent accuracy using PRB's in shallow (0.004-0.006") groove barrels, it's just a matter of tuning the load to the particular barrel. Most PRB-in-bullet-barrel accuracy problems comes from the operator using too-tight of a patch/ball combination and/or deforming the ball on loading. The correct combination of ball diameter & patch thickness will cure most ills while in some cases the load can be further tuned by adjusting the alloy of the balls to better match the parameters as defined by the particular barrel.

The problem with shooting conicals in a deep-groove PRB barrel is getting them sized correctly to stay in place after loading and obtain a bore seal. The same applies to conicals in a conical barrel too, if the bullets are not sized correctly to the bore, they can cause accuracy problems as well as a dangerous bore obstruction if they slide off the powder. Mini style bullets are a mass-forward design as is necessary to contend with the lack of rotational force stabilization and such is why they will often loose accuracy beyond X yards. The typical pointed mini-style bullets suck for hunting use too, far too erratic in their after-impact performance.

[mooman76]

My 58 Hawkin shoots the Lee minie fairly well. Not great but certainly in the kill zone at 100y with 80gr of 2f. It has a interchangeable barrel so I can shoot it with 50s for regular target practice.

[daddywpb]

I had wanted a .58 Kodiak for many years. A friend of mine got a .72 and a .58 at an estate sale I think, and sold me the .58 at a good price. Anyway, with the rifle of my dreams in my hands, off to the range I went. My dream state vanished quickly after shooting it. I just couldn't get it to group no matter what I did, and I tried everything I could think of short of a seperate load for each barrel - just too complicated. Groups were 4 - 5 inches at 50 yards - not good enough for me - not in a hunting rifle anyway, and since I wasn't going to hunt with it I got rid of it. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but that quenched my craving for a double rifle.

[Hellgate]

Felt recoil has a lot to do with the weight of the gun and the shape of the butt and butt stock. The Zouave has a shotgun style buttstock with a fair amount of drop at the comb and the recoil is distributed over a larger area. I've shot narrow combed & buttstocked Hawkens that hurt the shoulder with a much lighter load than with the Zouave.

[Chris Smith]

It occured to me this morning in church(I know, should have been listening to our pastor) that a hollow based minnie might be fired backwards. I haven't done this but if it would stabalize the thing would be an awesome hollowpoint. Probably won't work very well though.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The thing you need is a good mould to make a traditional minie', cast well, sized to slide slowly down a clean upright barrel (about 1.5 thousandths clearance), with a soft bp lube in the grooves, two light taps with the rod to seat on the charge, and a test series of charges at roughly 850-900 fps to establish grouping at 50 on the short leaf, a peep properly drilled in the tall leaf for on at 100, and the v notch in that leaf set for on at 150. Then shoot, shoot, shoot ! BvT

[Chris Smith]

My rifle has an adjustable rear sight installed. It's origins aren't known but it has windage and elevation adjustments. I have it sighted at 75 yards with a round ball and 70 grains of 3f. When I shoot the minne's it will shoot to the right about 4 inches at the same distance. I use crisco to lube things most times. One other thing, I bought the rifle from a dealer who was using it as a display gun in his store. Someones little boy got his hands on it, cocked it and pulled the trigger. This broke the nipple off about flush with the barrel. I didn't see it happen but was in the place when it did. The child panicked and shoved the rifle back into the rack scratching the stock a bit against another rifle. The father left immediately without offering to pay for damages. Some people. I got the rifle for what I thought was a decent price ($300) and even bought a nipple wrench and a couple of nipples from him. It came out easy as there wasn't much in the threads and I got a sort of abused rifle to tinker with.

[FL-Flinter]

Chris,

Trying to run a mini upsidedown isn't going to work, the mass has to be forward or it'll tumble and go wild.

The different POI for the PRB & mini is normal because of the difference in the conditions the gun & barrel are subjected to with the different projectiles - mini produces higher pressure which means they produce a different vibration rate and frequency as well as a difference in the annular wave amplitube and cyclic linear transmission.

[Chris Smith]

I understand what you are saying. Even front loaders have harmonics. I hadn't tried a backwards minnie but did expect it would tumble. Might have quite the gas leak past it since it wouldn't expand in the bore. It was just a random passing thought. I have them.

[smoked turkey]

Hellgate:
I wish it were me that shot that nice elk. Unfortunately it wasn't. That is something I would sure like to do some day. From what I hear it is fairly expensive for an out of stater like me to go west to hunt them. Someday hopefully.. Meantime congradulations on your fine cow elk. I have eaten elk and agree it is good eating. The Lyman 57730 is a RN minie that is 570 gr. It is a serious looking boolit. Mine actually weigh in at 560 gr. They have a large rear cavity allowing for a nice skirt at the rear of the boolit that expands to seal the bore. I would send a picture but I haven't tried that yet! I have enjoyed the comments on the .58. I think I'll get the Pedersoli out and do some range work.

[9.3X62AL]

I have one of the 58 caliber Zoli Zouaves, and haven't fired it in over 3 years. It will do 3" five-shot groups at 50 yards with traditional Civil War pattern Minie boolits, and just a bit over 1.00" with .570" PRB and .015" ticking. Goex 2F of 60.0 grains and 85.0 grains respectively. I have no idea of the velocities given, but those are LARGE chunks of lead moving at a pretty good clip, and I suspect they would do a deer no good at all.

I largely got out of the black powder shooting regimen a few years ago, but did retain the Zoli Zouave and a T/C Hawken in 54. They both shoot too well to turn loose of. That 54 has a RB barrel, and I plan to reverse-engineer it to primitive sights one of these days.

[Hellgate]

Smoked Trukey,
I just looked up the 57730 in my old Lyman BP Handbook 1st ed 10th printing and its a big slug of about 570grs as cast. It looks like a round nosed flat point.

There's an article in the book on using the big 58s on an African safari. George Nonte & Val Forgett made a custom heavy 610gr hollow based, thick skirted wadcutter minie and used two different 58cal rifles. One was a Navy Arms Hawken Hunter heavy barreled gun and the other 58 was a Buffalo Hunter (chopped zouave). In the Hawken Hunter they used 180 (!) grains of FFFg and in the Buffalo Hunter they used the same slug over a mere 120 grs FFFg. The guns had 24" barrels. A big zebra and a lion fell to the BH and an elephant, cape buffalo and a hippo to the hawken. The elephant needed backup from a 458 Win Mag. I'm a little leery to load my BH that hot but it's nice to know that the President of Navy arms trusted his guns to that level.

[northmn]

Most big bore shooter do not load very hot. When you consider that 140 grains in a 58 is about the equal of 85 grains in a 50 you can see that it really is not pressures that are holding back the charges. I built an English style rifle (need final finish) that is also designed to be more comfortable with heavy loads as that is what the English used. 2" X 5" straight buttplate and also very importantly a design that kicks away from the face. I have seen where Hawkens were also offered with "shotgun" buttplates. Probably for the larger bores or the ones made for bullets. I did have one 58 that shot best with loads in the 140 grain range, but I did not so I sold it. That one would not group well untill you loaded it up, meaning that it would not win target matches. Today, I hunt with one, and am not quite so fussy about nit picking accuracy. Still, from what I have seen, once you kind of know what makes a patched round ball shoot in general terms for ball/patch fit and other considerations, getting a patched round ball to shoot is a more matter of fine tuning and not just finding a load that will hit the paper. I have seen a few exceptions but generally when I break in a new barrel its a matter of fine tuning and not so much changing a pattern to a group.

DP

[10 ga]

Back when Cabellas cleared out their "Hawken" rifles of .58 cal I got one. It's a "48" twist. It shoots PRB really good and every minnie i've ever tried too. I stick with the PRB and my hunting load is 110 gr of FF Swiss, .562 rb, walley world pillow ticking patch with deer tallow/beeswax/peanut oil lube 1/1/1. I did put a "Spitfire" musket nipple on the rifle. It is my favorite sidehammer gun to hunt with. If you hit em you don't have to track em. I've shot those prb clean through deer broadside at 110 yd. Those 268 gr RBs make big holes in deer. Last batch I cast, about 30 #, used soft sheet lead salvaged from a roofing job and got plenty balls left. 10 ga

[RBak]

I've shot those prb clean through deer broadside at 110 yd. Those 268 gr RBs make big holes in deer.

Comments like this are very common when using the .58 and round ball / patch.
There appears to be a whole different kind of energy, as we know and commonly think of energy, when shooting this big round ball.....but I'm told that many feel this same way about all the lowly round ball in muzzleloaders.
One particular writer describes it as "Whupability" and that seems very appropriate.

I have also shot through a deer broadside with a .58, and that same ball took out a 3" sapling when exiting the other side....I finished pulling the sapling over, breaking it off, in hopes of finding the ball but I never did....not even pieces or shreds of it.
Pure lead is very malleable, and perhaps that is the entire secret to its sometimes awesome killing power.

Russ

[smokemjoe]

The 58 , I call the best bone crusher, Have shot a few deer with it, One with my flinter, dehass barrel, 1-48 twist, Used a lee mini bullet on a head shot, The whole head was like a bag of broken glass. With rd. ball shot a toy- dog at 75 yds., Its like hitting game with a 458 Mag.

[Wdemko]

Hey Hellgate,

I'm new here - I had to join because I finally found someone with the same Mustketoon as I have! I've never found any info on it, especially in regard to loads and projectiles. I've bought it used about 25 years ago and only shot it every great once in a while using patched round ball, but never had any luck hitting anything.

Living in Fredericksburg now, there are civil war goodies everywhere, and I finally took note that no one used round balls in these back then as they were intended to shoot Minie balls(which are near impossible to buy in 58). I cast up a bunch, and suddenly I was able to at least get the holes on the paper in a record numbers. I think the cast Minies were 580 grain, and I had tried loads of 30, 60, and 90 grains of BP & Pyrodex. I settled on the 60 grain load as it didn't seem to make much difference at the 50 & 100 yard ranges, and it used less powder. I don't remember off-hand what the groupings were, but I do know that the round balls were hitting 10 inches high at 50 yrds, and were too erratic to even try to hit the target at 100.

Now I hear you guys talking about your great successes with the round balls using 110+ loads, which was not my experience at all! At 100 yards the target is almost obscured by the sights, so its pretty much pray & spray at that distance! I fell like I must be doing something wrong, do you have any info to share in regards to your Musketoon's performance at various ranges and loads?

[Hellgate]

Wdemko,
My 'Toon is a Euroarms. The front sight has been built up and the rear sight filled in leaving a narrow slit for N/SSA shooting. I painted the back side of thefront sight with Day-Glo hot pink for better visibility in the low light levels of the Western Orygun woods in the winter. The load I found for deer/elk was 90grs FFFg and the 577611 heavy skirted Lyman minie lubed on the outside with 50/50 beeswax/lard. It was sighted in at 50 yds to hit 5" high so to be right on at 100yds based on the trajectory tables. I actually did not see how well it did group wise at 100yds. My Zoli Zouave load was 90gr FFFg and the 575213-Old Style thick skirted minie shot 4" groups @100yds. Got two deer with the Zouave. The minie passed diagonally lengthwise on one large doe and off into the woods.

[FL-Flinter]

Hey Hellgate,

Now I hear you guys talking about your great successes with the round balls using 110+ loads, which was not my experience at all! At 100 yards the target is almost obscured by the sights, so its pretty much pray & spray at that distance! I fell like I must be doing something wrong, do you have any info to share in regards to your Musketoon's performance at various ranges and loads?

Not "wrong" ... just not "right". :kidding: [smilie=1:

There's a whole laundry list of possibilities as to why the PRB's didn't group, anything from something you did or didn't did to something mechanical wrong with the gun. Mini's are somewhat less dependent on the crown, muzzle section of the bore and other such things being close to perfect than PRB's do. Did you wipe between shots? Use proper loading techniques? Low-quality balls? Patches not right? yadda, yadda, yadda ....... [smilie=b:

You really have to begin at square one verifying the parameters of the gun and the quality/consistency of the consumables - that's not a dig on anything/anyone it just is what it is. The rifling for mini's is generally on the fast side for PRB's and pushing a less-than-perfect PRB with too many RPM's makes them go wild. If the nipple is washed out too much, just like a vent on a flintlock, it'll cause very erratic performance being that PRB's are considerably lighter than mini's, the effects are much more easily noticed. Get a notebook and write down everything you try and the subsequent results - start at some point, try different patch/ball combinations, different powder charges and granulations and see what happens. Some guns will shoot about anything, others are very particular on the load parameters and it may take a while to find out what the gun wants. It's not uncommon to have a gun that won't shoot 3F but will group well with 2F; some want a patch/ball combo you have to start with a mallet, others are happy with a combo that's just a little snug.

[RBak]

I think Fl-Flinter 'pert-niert' nailed it with that post.

IMO, he kinda sumed it all up quite well when he said, "There's a whole laundry list of possibilities as to why the PRB's didn't group, anything from something you did or didn't did to something mechanical wrong with the gun".

There's times when finding that certain "sweet spot" is fun, and there's times the search can drive you crazy. The old saying of never changing more than one thing at a time can certainly have meaning when striving for accuracy in this game too.

Russ

[northmn]

Fl-Flinter's pretty much correct about patched roundball. The wrong lube can also cause problems. Some have prelubed them with liquid lube and had it dry out. the patches get blown apart. Generally, with my experience with them, they will shoot pretty fair on my first loading. I may not get great accuracy but they will shoot pretty fair. I had a 58 Green River barrel that did not want to shoot well with less than 140 grains of 2f, but I am talking about X-stick accuracy where I expected all ball to be touching or 5 shot groups that looked like 3-4 shot groups. It would still hit a deer at 100 yards with 100 grains, but would not win matches. I played with REAL bullets in a double gun and coudl not say the same for them as they would pattern with some loads and not group. When I took out my 58 to work up a load, I wanted to try 90 grains of Swiss 2f. It shot that load well enough to easily sight in and to give confidence in the combo as a deer rifle. I pretty much knew where to start with lube and patch and ball size to begin with. I stayed with the first combo.

DP

[Ron60]

Photo is of a .58 coach gun (rifle) I built for a fellow about 5 years ago. Had all of a 20" or so barrel! Shot both round balls and the original minies very well. The barrel was rifled by Bobby Ryle (sp?).
It grouped at about 4" at 100 yards from a steady rest. The charge it liked most for this accuracey was 90 grains of FFG. It was not altogether that much fun too shoot after 10 rounds or so. But it would make for one handy little brush rifle which is what the guy wanted it for. Went for $3700 so don't be too upset about parting with the better part of $1000 for a decent reproduction musket that shoots well!
There is a few molds of more or less original style minei's that are .578" rather than the standard .575 and they may work better in some muskets.
I'm not attempting to sell guns here but I have a few more photos of that little thumper. If you email me I'll be happy to send you a few.
Ron

[Hellgate]

One of the big advantages of the short barreled .58s is how handy they are in and around vehicles. It's kinda hard to hold one with 42" barrels without having the muzzle poking out the window of laying in the back seat.

As for recoil, I do put a sand bag betwixt my shoulder and the gun butt when working up a load at the bench and it is nice. When you are aiming at game recoil isn't noticed unless you have a narrow curved gun butt as seen on some of the T/C Hawken style rifles.

[northmn]

One of the big advantages of the short barreled .58s is how handy they are in and around vehicles. It's kinda hard to hold one with 42" barrels without having the muzzle poking out the window of laying in the back seat.



I have been finding that also. Also shorter barrels are handier in deer stands adn blinds.

DP

[RBak]

You made an interesting point on barrel length.....For years I though a muzzleloader simply had to have a loooong barrel, the longer the better.

However, over the past 15 years or so I have become convinced that a short barrel will also get the job done...... Especially the shorter heavier 1" barrels.

I have three 1" barrels for my Big Boar Renegade...the .58 Big Boar, a .56 smooth bore, and a new .50 cal fast twist from Green Mountain that I got from our own Good Cheer....all of these are short barrels, and all are 1" across the flats, and they all shoot really good.
I have never chronographed either of these barrels. However, as soon as the winter breaks, and spring gets here, I intend to do a charge by charge comparison between the .58 Big Boar and my 1861 Colt 3 Band in .58 cal.

Although I got the 1;28 fast twist for conicals and long / longer range shooting, so far I have been absolutely amazed at how accurately it will shoot a round ball at 50 yds....contrary to popular belief the fast twist can take some fairy hefty charges without stripping, however the heaviest load I have tried in it has been 70gr FFFg .490 ball, and .012 patch with homemade lube and the darn thing is a tack driver with that load. Now some mat say that is not a hefty load and they may be right, but it is an extremely accurate load and I would certainly hunt deer with that load.

For years, everything I have heard and read lead me to believe this would not work, needed a slower twist in order to shoot a round ball accurately, and on and on...I don't know if 70gr is the limit, and from here on out things go South, or what the deal is, but as soon as we get a weather change here in my area, I am going to find out.
I also plan to chronograph this .50 cal load in this barrel against against my 40 year old T/C Hawken with a 1:48 in .50 cal, using the same powder loads.

I don't know what I expect to prove, probably nothing other than knowing myself what each barrel will or won't do, but it sounded like a good idea and now I need to just get on with it.

Russ

[Ron60]

70 grains in back of a .490 ball is a nice load. Would like to know how well that 1:28 works at 100 yards though.
I had a T/C Hawken just about 37 - 40 years back - had that stupid micro grooving and wouldn't shoot worth spit with anything. Traded it for an old Antonio Zoli (I think) Zoave. That thing shot round balls really well with a tight patch. Minnie balls shot around corners with it.
Will be interesting to see how well you do with the 1:48 twist. I'll be surprised if it shoots well with much over 5o grains. The grooves in those things, even the standard cut rifling were pretty shallow.

[daddywpb]

My .58 shoots good with PRB and 80 grs FFg Goex, but I found that as I increased the charge, the groups shrank. Now I use 100 grs and a .018 patch.

[northmn]

There has been a bit of discussion on twist on another site. Most religously adhere to the theory that slow twists are more accurate with heavy loads and fast twist with lighter loads. Some love some formula for determining the twist which works with bullets but not roundball. When one gets the combined experience of several barrel makers and shooters togehter one finds that with a round ball twist rate does not seem to mean much. When they started slowing down the twist rates in custom barrels it was because slow twists fouls a little less and some think that they are reasonably accurate over a wider range of loads. The 1-48 twist in 50's -54's has had a reputation for being very accurate, but that is when they are coupled with ROUND BALL RIFLING, which is deep rifling designed to take thicker patches. The 1-48 twist in the TC Hawkens as a "Comprimise" twist really is so because the rifling was made shallower to accomodate slugs. Still I have seen some very impressive performances out of TC's (and also the old Numrich barrels). It does not surprise me that a faster twist barrel will shoot RB if a tight patch is used.
Many shooters also find that fouling is best controlled by using wet patches lubricated in stuff like Lehigh Valley lube, windshield washer, #9+ or just plain spit. Using a tighter patch combo and this type of lube they can shoot longer without swabing. Works great on the range but not worth sour owl droppings when carried for any length of time as the lubes dry out or can rust the bore.

DP

[Alan]

Northmn,
Ayup, the lubes that will do that for hunting are a bit more expensive, generally. Once you get the ball/patch/lube angle worked out, you literally NEVER have to swab between shots. This is also assuming you have shot the gun enough to really polish the barrel. I find that regular old olive oil will get you most of the way there, but some swear by mink oil, as sold by ToTW.

My kodiak has somewhat shallow rifling and a 48" twist, and I find that it takes a really tight patch combo to shoot well. My .72 with the shallow rifling and a 1:75" twist was much more forgiving.

[FL-Flinter]

UGGGHHHHHH! I hate that "compromise" word because it's total BS!

Sorry DP, not ragging on you man, just hate it when that comes up because it's truely nothing but more gun rag BS sales hype from T/C ... ranks right up with "seasoning the bore" like it's a flippin' cast iron fry pan instead of a gun barrel ... not all that far off from the "stones in bunderbuss" myth either! Any time you see the word "compromise" replace it with the word "worthless".

Yes, the 1:48 has limited functionality with both conical and ball but it is not optimum or efficient with anything. The faster the twist, the more velocity loss with PRB and trying to compensate with heavier charges puts too much RPM on the balls increasing the probability of loosing accuracy. Conicals must be properly designed to function with the limited twist and the majority will not obtain enough RPM's to maintain accuracy beyond limited ranges.

Pardon the limited reply on this, I'm on the laptop while waiting on parts for the desktop and my arthritic fingers & carpal tunnel don't agree with this keyboard.

Mark

[northmn]

The TC comprimise twist is actually fussier than a good round ball twist when round balls are used, but I saw an individual beat maybe 70 competitors, some very good shots with custom rifles at a BP match with a TC. He shot a 48 offhand at 100 yards with it. Still there is a reason that companies are selling piles of roundball barrels for TC's. The 1-48 inch twist would be a bit fast for a 58 RB but in a 50 has won some bench matches where they have to shoot on 6 bull targets to make sure all shots are counted (the 6th bull is a sighter) Don Getz claimed that if he picked one twist for his custom barrels it would likely be a 1-48. It was a pretty standard twist on original Hawkens along with a 1-60. It si still a matter of rifling style. Some have claimed taht the 1-48 is also "fussier". that is why the barrel makers have gone to slower twists. My 1-70 twist 50 does seem to be pretty forgiving. It is a minor point anyway as the 1-48 twist in barrel blanks is primarily made in 40 cal and smaller and is realtively slow for those calibers. To get taht twist in a barrel would require a few extra dollars for a special made one which I do not consider worth it. I am talking round ball. For conicals, I believe the 1-48 is Ok in a 58, but is too slow in the smaller bores. But then the 58 tends to be loaded lighter with conicals. The military load was pretty anemic at 60-70 grains.

DP

[FL-Flinter]

DP,

For other-than-long-range match guns, there's nothing wrong with the 1:48 for PRB's in the smaller bores. When you try jacking up the horsepower for long range match and hunting, that's when it becomes very picky and you're still loosing velocity because of the twist. With conicals, you're still range limited because once they get so far down range, they don't have enough spin to maintain stability. I can't even tell you how many hundreds of conicals I've put downrange for testing but I can tell you that even with loads well in excess of the OEM maximums, Lee, REAL, T/C Maxi, Lee Modern Mini's, Ballettes, PA Con., PA Hunter, the one in the green box (brand escapes me at the moment) .... not a single one of them would maintain consistency/accuracy beyond 90yds from 1:48 twist bores. I use the T/C Hawken 28" bbl, Lyman Deerstalker 25"bbl and an Italian 42" bbl and most crapped out past 60yds, only the Italian was able to produce reliable consistency past 90yds and that only with strip-patched Ballettes & an OP wad. Inside of 50yds, and one can tune them in pretty good, past 50yds is the iffy territory.

I have some clients who would beg to differ on PRB twists in the small bores too, I can tell you for fact that 1:72 works exceptionally well in the .40 and is more than capable of running with the .45 & .50 bores at least to 120 meters because my client has won several matches with that gun.

Thing is, in this day and age with the vast availability of custom barrels built to spec, why even consider messing around with something that's "iffy" at best when for the same amount of money you can buy something tailor made to what you're shooting?

Mark

[RBak]

I agree that the word "Compromise" is not the best word for describing the 1:48.
However, its utility has served many shooters well, and a better "all-around" twist has been slow in coming.

It is something of an accepted fact that it is not the single best twist for conicals, or Minie ball. It is also not the single best twist for round ball.
Still yet, for one gun, one barrel, but different style / shape projectiles, I think all of us must admit it has served us well over the past 200 plus years.

The different style, shape, and rifling depth found in any 1:48 has a lot to do with the performance of whatever the projectile we should be shooting at the time, and this always begs the question of which is the absolute best....best for who? best for what?

I think northmn described things about right when he said the 1:48 twist is a little bit more "fussy" than some others....this is a very descriptive term in any such discussion......It simply says it can be done.

About all one could add to his description might be something to the effect, "that twist rate combined with style / depth of riffling can get even fussy-ier" (if there is such a word as fussy-ier).
Some combinations are simply more forgiving than others, and occasionally some of us manage to strike up a nice balance right from the start, yet other seemingly same situations can be downright cantankerous, and we blame it on a lot of things because we are not sure of that one single cause.....

Just thinking out loud, I suppose.

Russ

[Chris Smith]

My Zoauve has 1 in 66 (I think) twist. Thats pretty close anyway, it's slow anyway. And it's three grove.