Description of mould rather than mold number

[bigjake]

Maybe its just me, but why does everyone use the moulds model number when refering to a particular mould rather than using a description of the boolit it produces??
I suppose I could pull out my book and figure it out but why not just say; " 240gr. SWC ,TL" or "200 gr. round nose" instead of; 29088-774630 [smilie=b:

Sorry for the rant, but this has been eating at me for some time. :veryconfu

[peerlesscowboy]

Often there're subtle dimentional differences between different numbered moulds that would be described the same way but that might not perform alike.

John C. Saubak

[chaos]

I had the same question when I started casting a couple of years ago. I figured guys were just being arrogant because they were in the know.

I've come to realize, that they just know their stuff and nothing arrogant about it. Kind of like guys that deal in tires, just spout off those metric sizes instead of something that would be easily describable. Or a parts guy who memorizes the part numbers because its what he deals in.

I dont mess with enough moulds to remember much about the numbers myself.


The only time that it REALLY hacks me off is when I am looking for something in the "Swappin and Selling" forum. I cant remember how many deals that have closed while I was trying to look up numbers..... The price was good, so the deal lasts only minutes

As of late, if I am wanting a mould, I just place a WTB add.

Chaos

[Calamity Jake]

All mold makers produce a 240 SWC and most a 200RN, some produce multipils of the same desigh but still different, (all will preform different when fired in the same gun) the only way to know the difference is to know the # therefor us old guys always use the #

[bowfin]

As someone new to bullet casting, it is confusing. I have been trying to decipher a lot of it, but I am not clear enough on it to be confident in getting into many of the group buys on molds yet.

The best course, I believe, is to study the mold charts listed in several threads and get up to speed.

[mdi]

Actually this practice helped my boolit casting education. When I read a new mold number, I looked it up (Google is your friend, really easy!). Plus if I were talking about a specific boolit, I'd use specific name/number for that boolit. Otherwise it would be kinda like only using Ford when talking about Mustangs...

http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm Here's a page about Lyman/Ideal molds to get you started. It doesn't take long to recognise mold numbers and what they cast.

[Maximumbob54]

I have been casting for less than a year now so I agree with this. Maybe in a few years I won't even think about it when I start spouting off numbers for molds.

[Rocky Raab]

That's one reason why I use Lee moulds: The mould number IS the bullet description.

[Cadillo]

It would make more sense if they would say something like "Lyman 452460" or "Lyman 452460 clone" instead of just "452460" If I start reading and see something I don't immediately recognize, I just ignore the post and look for something else to read. You have to remember that some folks do this on purpose as they relish in saying something that you don't understand. It makes them feel more knowledgeable, but really just demonstrates a lack of communication skills.

If the guy can't or won't communicate better than that, I probably won't understand or care about what he's putting out anyway. Life is short, just move on.

There is a lot of good information put out on this forum by people who can communicate it effectively, and as a result I have learned a great deal about how to cast effectively and efficiently. Using what I have learned here through the recounted experiences of others, I can do things I would not have dared imagine some two years ago, when I began trying to cast my first bullets.

Being retired, I have a lot of time to cast, and shoot, which has helped me capitalize on what I have gleened on this forum, which is a true treasure.

[steg]

I think in the swappin and selling areas all of the information should be given, caliber, weight, and mold number should be given, if for no other reason than that at a glance you know if your interested in it or not, just my 2cents.......................steg

[BruceB]

It's simply a kind of shorthand.

Since Lyman seems to be the most common, consider this:

The first three numbers are the NOMINAL diameter, Therefore, once you see the first three, you KNOW the caliber: 311xxx....Okay, it's a thirty caliber. If the number is CLOSE to a "regular" diameter, but a tad different, you are at least in the ballpark: 314xxx.....aha, it's a "fat thirty".

The remaining three numbers identify the specific design, and you will quickly learn the ones that matter to YOU. 311291: a thirty-caliber roundnose, about 170grains, ideal for .30-30. 311465, 311466, 311467...a series of Loverin pointed multi-groove designs, escalating in weight from 130 to 150 to 180 grains The first three numbers can also identify designs that are UNDER-SIZE for "standard" calibers....427103 is clearly BELOW .44 caliber types which bear the "429" numbers like 429421. 427103 is actually a plain-base 350(?)-grain rifle bullet for the .43 Russian Berdan rifle, and too skinny for .44 rifles.

I will now confess that the Lee system is meaningless to me. All my Lees have a CATALOG number, and no mention of diameter or weight. Have they changed recently? I use an electric engraver to place diameter/weight figures in big numbers in the wood of the handles.

Just keep reading, and the frequent references to various designs will soon have you "in the know".

Remember how confusing all those different powder numbers were, AT FIRST?

[gnoahhh]

It's a lot like why scientists use Latin names when referring to things. It's a universal shorthand that allows everybody in that particular field to know exactly what they're talking about instead of confusing the issue with inaccurate descriptions or locally used terms.

I solved the problem to my satisfaction by bookmarking pages on the internet that the manufacturers post showing the moulds they offer, plus a neat page I found showing all of the past and present Lyman/Ideal mould numbers with a pic of each bullet. It's a simple matter to click on it whenever anybody refers to a bullet I'm not familiar with, and only takes a second.

[montana_charlie]

It varies some among manufacturers, but there are three or four ways to tell 'us' what kind of mould you are talking about...especially if you are trying to sell it.
I'll use a Lyman mould as an example, but it basically holds true for the others, too.

Description: You could say you have a 500 grain .45 caliber mould with a round nose. Only people who shoot bullets in that size range would probably be familiar with the mould, but you wouldn't send a guy on a Google Journey who only loads for 9mm.

Name: Many moulds have a common name that people recognize them by. In this example, it called the 'Government bullet'. RCBS and Saeco make similar moulds, but for some reason Saeco and RCBS owners only know 'catalog numbers'.

Bullet Number: In the case of Lyman, there is a bullet number applied to each design. The one being used for the example is 457125. This number is pretty familiar to most who shoot BPCR, but a newby could be sent searching when it isn't really necessary.

Part Number (Catalog Number): Then you have the most cryptic of all identifiers. For this very commonly-known Lyman design, some insist on calling it the #2640125. A similar weight Seaco mould has the number 61022 while the RCBS is 82084. Then, the Lee 500 grainer is cat. no. 90577.

Use of these numbers ranks as the most ignorant way of describing a mould that I have seen...most especially when it's a Saeco mould. The Redding site is so clunky and a pain to use, and you end up having to take what you find there and go to Midway (or someplace) to see the catalog number listed. RCBS is not much better.

Why do I call it an 'ignorant' way to identify a mould? Because you see it done that way a lot on eBay...where the seller is trying to provide the 'most pertinent number' he can find, and ends up listing the one least used by people who actually pour hot lead.

Of course, for those who hate typing, a string of digits is much easier than a verbal description, and somebody probably will buy the mould, eventually.
But it won't be me.

CM

[Pepe Ray]

For Cadillo and M Charlie'
Thank you for expressing my feelings on this sub. And doing it so politely too.
Saves me -----a lot.
Thanks.
Pepe Ray

[2Tite]

It's funny, it works both ways. A lot of us are familiar with the mold numbers and when we hear a description we wonder if the person is talking about a particular mold number. Many of us recognize the bullets by mold numbers particularly the commerical molds like Lyman, RCBS and Saeco. For instance I know exactly what the 358009 looks like and instantly get a mental picture. If you gave a written description I might not understand exactly what bullet you were talking about. The number identifies it instantly to many of us. No arrogance involved, it just cuts to the chase a little quicker for many of us.

[mdi]

Well, after reading the posts above, I still think it's a non-issue. If you can't Google the number, or choose to ignore the post, who loses? Perhaps this is an attempt to "dumb down" boolit casting...(I use a 242.5 grain lead boolit of 96 percent lead with 3 percent tin and 1 percent antimony alloy that's a semi-wadcutter shape with one lube groove and a flat base cast in a lyman mold; for those who haven't the initiave to look it up Or for those that do, a Lyman 429421 of Wheel Weights)

[Rocky Raab]

Without being obstreperous, such habitually obfuscatory concatenation can be umbrageous.

There. See how looking stuff up causes no extra trouble?

[462]

Any field of endeavor has its unique vocabulary. If one wants to become profficient in a field, one would be wise to learn its vocabulary.

[bhn22]

But seriously. Casting is a precise, detail oriented undertaking. Many people learned their decimals by reloading & casting. There are some guys who will shoot anything they can get out of a mould because they aren't willing to put in the effort to do it right, but they're in a distinct minority. Most casters are detail oriented, quality conscious, and even meticulous. Definitions are usually exact, and the mould numbers are the language of the land. Most computer browsers have a task bar with a quick search option, all you need to do is Google "358156 Lyman" if you're not familiar with the design, and you'll quickly find a picture of exactly what they're talking about. "Lyman .358 155 grain semi-wadcutter with dual crimp grooves and a gas check" is too much to write. You can't shorten it without losing meaning. How many 155- 158 gr. semi-wadcutters moulds do you think there are? (hint: many, many) If this was a car board, wouldn't you expect most people to know what a '69 Camaro is? Stick with it, you'll pick up on the number really quickly.

[btroj]

By referring to the mould number we are referriing to a specific bullet design. Been that way for a long time in my Lyman manual.
Like others said, casting has a certain vocabulary to it. When I first started reloading many powders were unknown to me. Telling me Varget was similar to RE15 and 4064 would have meant nothing. It was not the information that was the problem, it was my Inexperience with the lingo.
Heck, I have been casting for 25 years and still have more to learn. Until I got a 1911 this summer I never paid attention to mould designs for the 45 ACP. Now I do and I have a better handle on what a 452460 is.
We could try to make it easier but then we lose the little differences between the various 200 ish grain SWC designs for 45 ACP.

Brad

[Skipper488]

That's one reason why I use Lee moulds: The mould number IS the bullet description.

+1 on the Lee numbers

[btroj]

Lee numbers are nice, but how do you differentiate between the various 358158swc?

[Dannix]

Is the poster being a punk in posting a mould number rather than a description. Perhaps sometimes, but I would mostly think not. I think BruceB nailed it in liking it to powders -- what were once so foreign to me are now personal acquaintances. Pure numbers (like some powder numbers) can be hard to remember, sure, but the 311xxx nomenclature is as good as any.

lmgtfy.com is a great site for helping (but also smacking upside the head with a bit of ribbing), someone who's too lazy to look up something so easy to find as a pic of a mould number. :mrgreen:
For example: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Lyman+429421+



That's one reason why I use Lee moulds: The mould number IS the bullet description.
Yeah, until they decided to change the design and the descriptor stays the same, e.g. the Lee 358-125-RF (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1058100&postcount=17). Now that's annoying.


plus a neat page I found showing all of the past and present Lyman/Ideal mould numbers with a pic of each bullet.
Thanks for not sharing. ;)

[462]

Originally Posted by Rocky Raab
That's one reason why I use Lee moulds: The mould number IS the bullet description.

Yeah, until they decided to change the design and the descriptor stays the same, e.g. the Lee 358-125-RF. Now that's annoying.



For instance when Lee decided to put a bevel base on the 358-158 RF, which had been a plain base design. The nomenclature should have been changed to 358-158 RFBB...but no. I bought what was pictured as a plain base and received a bevel base.

[Tom W.]

I'll use the number on the box as well as the description if I want to buy or sell a mold. That way it can be looked up on the manufacturer's web page and one can get a visual...

[AZ-Stew]

I usually keep this site: http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm open in the browser tab next to Cast Boolits. It allows me quick reference to most of the Lyman six-digit mould numbers.

As to why they're important, think of all the different .357 SWC designs are out there. Lyman has theirs, Lee has theirs, Saeco, RCBS, etc., etc. However, if I tell you 358156, and you're familiar with the Lyman lexicon, you know that it's a nominally 158 gr GC design, as opposed to the 358429 which is a 173 gr plain base SWC, or yet the 358477 plain base at 150 gr or the 357466 plain base at 162 gr, but with two grease grooves, like the 358156, while the 358429 and 358477 both have a single lube groove and a crimping groove. They're all SWCs suitable for the .38 Spl or .357 Mag, but they're all different and each will perform differently in a given gun.

It's not arrogance or trying to keep "the unwashed masses" from following along, it's a matter of precisely describing different boolits. I've been around the Horn a time or two, but I don't know them all. That's why I keep Ol' Buffalo's site close by for reference.

Regards,

Stew

[bigjake]

It varies some among manufacturers, but there are three or four ways to tell 'us' what kind of mould you are talking about...especially if you are trying to sell it.
I'll use a Lyman mould as an example, but it basically holds true for the others, too.

Description: You could say you have a 500 grain .45 caliber mould with a round nose. Only people who shoot bullets in that size range would probably be familiar with the mould, but you wouldn't send a guy on a Google Journey who only loads for 9mm.

Name: Many moulds have a common name that people recognize them by. In this example, it called the 'Government bullet'. RCBS and Saeco make similar moulds, but for some reason Saeco and RCBS owners only know 'catalog numbers'.

Bullet Number: In the case of Lyman, there is a bullet number applied to each design. The one being used for the example is 457125. This number is pretty familiar to most who shoot BPCR, but a newby could be sent searching when it isn't really necessary.

Part Number (Catalog Number): Then you have the most cryptic of all identifiers. For this very commonly-known Lyman design, some insist on calling it the #2640125. A similar weight Seaco mould has the number 61022 while the RCBS is 82084. Then, the Lee 500 grainer is cat. no. 90577.

Use of these numbers ranks as the most ignorant way of describing a mould that I have seen...most especially when it's a Saeco mould. The Redding site is so clunky and a pain to use, and you end up having to take what you find there and go to Midway (or someplace) to see the catalog number listed. RCBS is not much better.

Why do I call it an 'ignorant' way to identify a mould? Because you see it done that way a lot on eBay...where the seller is trying to provide the 'most pertinent number' he can find, and ends up listing the one least used by people who actually pour hot lead.

Of course, for those who hate typing, a string of digits is much easier than a verbal description, and somebody probably will buy the mould, eventually.
But it won't be me.

CM
I'm with you all the way. Its not about "dumbing down" bullet casting. there isnt anything much here over my head, there just aint no way I'm going to remember strings of numbers. even if I could, I wouldnt want to, it just seems too boring that way.

[Bret4207]

I don't know about anyone else, but I have printouts of the Lyman, Saeco and RCBS mould listings right here at the computer. I also have the older Lyman books, printouts of the B+M and H+G mould listings nearby too. The model numbers are simply standard terms to use when referring to a mould. I have a few customs that I describe as the OP prefers- 6.5 Mauser mould, .268x145gr FNGC, but only a few. I also have a few that have their nicknames- The 6.5 Oldfeller, 25 DJ PB+GC, Soup Can, 45BD.

Over time you build familiarity, but it takes time and effort on your part to "get it".

[NHlever]

Well, I've been casting for 49 years now, and there are some brands of molds with numbers that I don't know. I have to admit that I'm a bit fustrated when someone starts talking about one of them with no information besides the mold number. I also admit that I am so familiar with Lyman numbers, RCBS numbers, and Lee numbers that I have been guilty of typing posts with only the mold number myself. This is a forum to share information, and to help new casters along so I can't see that it will hurt me to try to be more descriptive in the future. Now what to heck is a #503 anyway. :D :D

[cajun shooter]

You should look at it as has been posted and that is learning the talk of a casting forum. It is important as many molds have the same size and weight that are different. To me it would be like giving a person directions to a location and saying you drive on that road that has the two lanes made of blacktop, and when you arrive you see three such roads.

[Dannix]

That's why if I have to go hunting for a picture, I sometimes like to post it in the thread. It helps out other newbies, and sometimes the OP doesn't have time to post a pic... or simply doesn't know enough about 'puters to do so -- something most all new casters don't have a problem with. Besides, sometimes a noob like me finds some neat threads like this (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=755926#post755926) using the search function.


Well, I've been casting for 49 years now, and there are some brands of molds with numbers that I don't know. I have to admit that I'm a bit fustrated when someone starts talking about one of them with no information besides the mold number. I also admit that I am so familiar with Lyman numbers, RCBS numbers, and Lee numbers that I have been guilty of typing posts with only the mold number myself. This is a forum to share information, and to help new casters along so I can't see that it will hurt me to try to be more descriptive in the future. Now what to heck is a #503 anyway. :D :D

[georgewxxx]

I have several moulds that were made many years ago with no numbers or manufacture on them any place. One manufacture, Yankee, didn't put their name on or any numbers until just before they ceased to make moulds. When I cast from any of that bunch I make up my own number for it and leave a note indicating size weight and a description of the mould so when my supply dwindles I can retreive that mould and cast some more.

[jameslovesjammie]

Lee numbers are nice, but how do you differentiate between the various 358158swc?

Because 358158swc isn't how Lee moulds are cataloged. Lee has 4 different 158 grain designs:

TL-358-158-SWC
C-358-158-SWC
TL-358-158-2R
C-358-158-RF

Any Lee mould designation that starts with a TL is a tumble lube design, a C is a standard lube groove.

358 is the nominal diameter.

158 is the nominal weight.

The last few digits explain the boolit design. SWC is a semi-wadcutter, 2R is a 2 radius ogive which is a long round nose, RF is a round nose flat point. Others that Lee uses for handgun are 1R which is a 1 radius "pointed" round nose, and TC for truncated cone.

I don't find anything at all difficult about the Lee nomenclature, and Lyman's isn't that difficult either.

Lee's method takes a little more time to type out but probably gives the best reference to what the design ACTUALLY is.

[MtGun44]

Gnoahh is exactly right.

You must use the exact part number designation if you want someone to understand what
you are talking about. If you don't know the design (as is frequently the case for me) you
go to Castpics and look it up, or us another source to find out what the guy is writing about.
Many times the EXACT mold is critical to the discussion.

Sorry, but it isn't going to change, it is necessary.

Bill

[45nut]

It's not arrogance or trying to keep "the unwashed masses" from following along

I'll second that and add,, this site is dedicated to educating everyone about casting,, and usually any question is answered pretty quickly so when in doubt,, ASK!!

[nanuk]

Lee has 4 different 158 grain designs
C-358-158-RF

..... a C is a standard lube groove.



I always thought the "C" on a Lee mould number was for "Gas Check" style base

PB (Plain Base Lee) moulds have no prefix

[RayinNH]

Nanuk you are correct sir. Lee molds with the C prefix are gas check designs...Ray

[btroj]

That is true but lyman also has a c357158swc. You still need to know that Lee and the Lyman ain't the same. Similar, but not same. How many 452200swc are there? Do we need a 452200swc1g and 452200swc2g to tell how many grooves?
We can sit here and argue or we can acknowledge that no one system can tell everyone all they might want to know about a mould from just a number.
I will stick with the old fashioned system, if I don't know what it is I look it up. I generally know what the moulds for a caliber I care about are. If you are talking 6.5 mm I don't know because o don't care. Don't have a gun for those.

Brad

[Bent Ramrod]

Lee doesn't have a lot of designs; the old Lyman and Ideal companies did. Eventually that bunch of weights and Rs and Cs and so forth would become impossible to maintain, if the designs continue to multiply.

Someone's already mentioned powder numbers. Would anyone really try a handload recommendation with a description like "thirty grains of that greyish-black flaky powder that is kind of crinkly-looking, not flat"? How about gun model numbers? "I shoot a Marlin lever action, a .45-70, with the round bolt but plain, not stainless, steel."

The dismal fact is the Ideal numbers (or Lee numbers, or model or powder numbers, for that matter) are already the simplest and most all-inclusive description of the mould cavities. Anybody who is really interested in the discussion can get hold of the chart that shows the number talked about.

When I was setting up my Living Trust, the lawyer kept shoving pages at me full of dense legalese gobbledygook, telling me, "This says that your property XXX is owned by the Trust with you as the Trustee," and "This means that you wish to have your property YYY left to this particular Beneficiary." This routine went on and on for an hour. Finally I couldn't stand it any more. "Why isn't all this stuff in plain English? Why can't it just say what you are telling me it says?"

He grinned at me. "You're paying for this; you're the boss. I can put all of this into plain, easily understandable English if that is what you want. Just remember one thing: All this dense legalese gobbledygook has been argued over by lawyers in court after court and everybody in the system knows exactly what it means, beyond any further argument. Your 'plain simple English' version will be brand new case law and there is no guarantee that somebody wouldn't be able to argue an interpretation of your 'plain simple English' that is not what you actually wanted. There are a lot of wannabe Beneficiaries and Trustees out there who would be glad to hire a lawyer to see what they could get out of the situation. So what do you want to do?"

I looked at all that Estate stuff and said "Let's stick with the dense legalese gobbledygook."

Every area of interest in life is some sort of technocracy, like it or not. The energy spent assigning false self-serving motivation to the knowledgable members of such groups would be better spent in learning the way the system operates in MHO.

[jameslovesjammie]

Someone's already mentioned powder numbers. Would anyone really try a handload recommendation with a description like "thirty grains of that greyish-black flaky powder that is kind of crinkly-looking, not flat"? How about gun model numbers? "I shoot a Marlin lever action, a .45-70, with the round bolt but plain, not stainless, steel."


I shoot my 8.375" 686-5 with 6.1 SR-7625, Fed GM200M, 358477 @ 1186 fps (28,400 CUP). What's so difficult about reading that?

[jameslovesjammie]

I always thought the "C" on a Lee mould number was for "Gas Check" style base

PB (Plain Base Lee) moulds have no prefix

Thanks for the catch!

[shootingbuff]

Well, after reading the posts above, I still think it's a non-issue. If you can't Google the number, or choose to ignore the post, who loses? Perhaps this is an attempt to "dumb down" boolit casting...(I use a 242.5 grain lead boolit of 96 percent lead with 3 percent tin and 1 percent antimony alloy that's a semi-wadcutter shape with one lube groove and a flat base cast in a lyman mold; for those who haven't the initiave to look it up Or for those that do, a Lyman 429421 of Wheel Weights)

:coffeecom

spot on, right on, and exactly

[MtGun44]

Great pix!

[Bass Ackward]

Man O man. If this ain't the Internet age or what?

How dare some manufacturer give his product a recognition number. Government gave people one to distinguish between 1200 Harry Tudwells.

Who would meet a man's family and have the gall to say, I don't like what you named your kids, so we are just going to call fatty here, 212lb, round, blunt faced.

Who in football would say throw me the 14 oz, dual spitzer doohickey?

Only on the Internet. :grin:

[Dannix]

, I don't like what you named your kids, so we are just going to call fatty here, 212lb, round, blunt faced.
:bigsmyl2:

[Suo Gan]

Maybe its just me, but why does everyone use the moulds model number when refering to a particular mould rather than using a description of the boolit it produces??
I suppose I could pull out my book and figure it out but why not just say; " 240gr. SWC ,TL" or "200 gr. round nose" instead of; 29088-774630 [smilie=b:

Sorry for the rant, but this has been eating at me for some time. :veryconfu

Because its like saying that kinda big grey jet with the pointy nose and big scoopy looking thing below and one jet motor, when you could say "F-16". Or when your physics instructor asks about the acceleration of gravity and you tell him around ten feet a second squared. Do you see that calling a mold by its number is more exact than your system is...even though your system is correct?

The wife doesn't know the difference between a pair of side cutters or tin snips, but ya do don't ya, it taint that hard to learn em.

[Rocky Raab]

One of the first things I learned as a writer was to make it easy for the reader to understand what I'm trying to say. So if referring to an organization, one always spells out the whole name for the first usage and gives the acronym behind it. Example: "The National Football League (NFL) may soon go on strike."

Would it be so very much trouble for posters here to write "I like the Lyman 240 SWC (429421) design because..." ? If you want your reader to fully understand what you are saying, is it worth a tiny bit of effort to insure he does? Because if it isn't, then why bother writing anything at all?

[Bass Ackward]

Would it be so very much trouble for posters here to write "I like the Lyman 240 SWC (429421) design because..." ? If you want your reader to fully understand what you are saying, is it worth a tiny bit of effort to insure he does? Because if it isn't, then why bother writing anything at all?



Not to be smart, but lets look at how feasible it is to do what you ask. Question is, is there a benefit?

I know of 11 different cherries for the 429421 and I am sure that there are more. If you use lino, the weights can be from 227 grains to 248 grains. If you use pure lead, the weights can be from 246 to 269 grains just from the one's I have had my hands on.

So in a way, telling someone a 240 grain 429421 can be dead on or grossly inaccurate.

[Rocky Raab]

By your own description then, using just 429421 is eleven times inaccurate. Are you recommending that posters say "429421 cherry m-234B-2" every time?

All I'm suggesting is that if a poster wants to be understood, he should use a full description once. After that, a shorthand number is fine.

If only a mould number is enough, how would it be if we simply started using catalog numbers instead of descriptions? If I were to say that I prefer the 9356 to the 90588 would that be enough? Or should I have said that "I prefer the Rockchucker Supreme press to the Lee Challenger?"

[BruceB]

What I usually do is include a qualifier in my bullet description, saying for example "in my alloy, such-and-such bullet weighs X amount", or..." MY 429244s weigh this much".

I do this in hopes of avoiding unpleasant surprises for those who might use my load data.

There's certainly enough variation among moulds of "the same" design to warrant concern.

Remember that there's a very useful reference resource at Castpics (bottom of the page) which illustrates most designs from quite a few makers.

[Skipper488]

The wife doesn't know the difference between a pair of side cutters or tin snips, but ya do don't ya, it taint that hard to learn em.

Shoot, My wife doesn't know the difference between a screwdriver and a wood chisel. She done ruined my whole set.:cry:

[Bass Ackward]

If only a mould number is enough, how would it be if we simply started using catalog numbers instead of descriptions?


In the military, it was my responsibility to ask if I didn't understand your order. It wasn't your job to explain details down to the smallest detail to ensure I got it each and every time you issued one. These posts are not reference manuals, they are conversations.

I am not wasting time or insulting others that do understand by writing to the lowest possible experience level. That's why the posting privileges aren't limited to one post per subject. Why we also have PMs and email addresses.

You don't know or understand, then ask. That's your responsibility in a conversation.

How do I cover my poor writing skills? My signature line at the bottom of my posts and the reloader's creed which everyone should already know, start low and work up.

[unclebill]

In the military, it was my responsibility to ask if I didn't understand your order. It wasn't your job to explain details down to the smallest detail to ensure I got it each and every time you issued one. These posts are not reference manuals, they are conversations.

I am not wasting time or insulting others that do understand by writing to the lowest possible experience level. That's why the posting privileges aren't limited to one post per subject. Why we also have PMs and email addresses.

You don't know or understand, then ask. That's your responsibility in a conversation.

How do I cover my poor writing skills? My signature line at the bottom of my posts and the reloader's creed which everyone should already know, start low and work up.

i use google a LOT looking up all these numbers and stuff.


as in every single time i come here.;-)

if i get skunked
i ask the OP what he is talking about.

[Rocky Raab]

Provided the poster ever comes back to the thread, and then provided that he reads the request for a better description and THEN providing he decides to answer and THEN AGAIN providing the questioner comes back and finds that description, I suppose asking what a mould number means would work. Maybe. Occasionally.

Whereas simply saying "240 SWC (Lyman 429421)" once in a thread staves off the whole improbable series. But if that doesn't make sense to you, I give up.

[unclebill]

simply saying "240 SWC (Lyman 429421)" once .

sure makes it easy to google...:-)

[snuffy]

Lee #'s are descriptive?


That's one reason why I use Lee moulds: The mould number IS the bullet description.

Sure if you attach the box end flap to the mold somehow, otherwise the series of numbers on the side of the mold is meaningless. I don't have time OR mental capacity to memorize each 5 digit number. If lee wanted to, he could put that description on the mold half the same way as the number. I guess those stamps are real expensive!

What does 90373 say to you? If I had the ability to remember numbers like some do, then I would know it's a 457-340-F. Perhaps IF the numbers made sense, the way Lyman's do, then it wouldn't be so hard.

I got sick of trying to identify the bunch of lee molds I have in about 10 different calibers, and several different bullet styles in each caliber. Including 10 6 cav. I got my dad's vibro-tool out, engraved a practical description on the side of the mold, just under the 5 digit number, like 458 350 RF-#1, because I have two of them. One is lemented to .460

Try to tell the difference between the 429 310 grain lee SWC and the ,452 300 grainer of the same style, BY LOOKING AT THE CAVITIES! Good luck with that one.

[MtGun44]

"Ten feet a second squared" ? G is kinda close to 10 meters per second squared, I suppose.

I suppose this officially makes me a picky sucker.
;-)

Bill

[dakotashooter2]

OK define Roundnose!........... There may be a dozen or more variations of RN profiles...... which one do you want? it makes a difference

Some are even made in various weights which may overlap or be within a few grains of different RN design.

Define Semiwadcutter!...... Again there are many variations


Sometimes even the numbers may not give a clear picture as some manufactures have modified the design at one time or another... for example the original Keith SWC with wide bands and deep square grooves or the newer with the narrower bands and shallower round bottom grooves.

The numbers are a reference point we can use to research the exact design.

[Bass Ackward]

Provided the poster ever comes back to the thread, and then provided that he reads the request for a better description and THEN providing he decides to answer and THEN AGAIN providing the questioner comes back and finds that description, I suppose asking what a mould number means would work. Maybe. Occasionally.

Whereas simply saying "240 SWC (Lyman 429421)" once in a thread staves off the whole improbable series. But if that doesn't make sense to you, I give up.


Rock,

Come on, there is another major thing wrong with your description. A semi wadcutter's only requirement is to have a diameter step down from the shoulder of the first drive band with any nose shape. A 358383 is supposed to be a round nose, but in truth, it has the step down shoulder, so it is a semi wadcutter that just happens to have a round nose.

A 429421 is not just a semi wadcutter, it is a Keith design. That means it has certain requirements for nose length and shape, equal width drive bands, grease groove shape and depth. Thus why some 429421s aren't true Keiths either.

A bore ride bullet for a rifle is a semi wadcutter too, but describing it as a bore ride better describes the fit you are trying to accomplish to somebody else.

My point is that to be "helpfully" accurate for the less experienced, you need to write a dissertation for semi wadcutters for folks to understand the differences. And as you say, if you aren't going to go all the way, why post SWC at all?

If they research, they will often find WAY more info and insight into bullet design than they might have gotten with a simple SWC description. As they go along, it may mean something to them. Or it may not.

If they aren't interested enough to even ask, then .... it .... won't help them anyway.

[Rocky Raab]

I'm sure there are endless examples of bullet designs that might need further clarification if there's a need to do so. But (as I keep saying) a six-digit number tells a reader precisely nothing except nominal diameter. Most of the time, the only other thing a reader needs to know is an approximate weight and a general idea of the shape.

Providing that scant amount of info is a courtesy to the reader. Not doing so is discourteous. I can't say it any better and I decline to say it again.

Moving on.

[casterofboolits]

I try to give as much info as possiable when describing a Mould. I.E. Lyman four cavity 429421 44-245-SWCPB square grease groove or round grease groove. I also list the weight of the boolit in my alloy.

[Bass Ackward]

Providing that scant amount of info is a courtesy to the reader. Not doing so is discourteous. I can't say it any better and I decline to say it again.

Moving on.


Self appointed judging is what is discourteous.

[fishhawk]

is this really worth getting every one's hair in a knot over?

[bowfin]

Any field of endeavor has its unique vocabulary. If one wants to become proficient in a field, one would be wise to learn its vocabulary.

Being an Information Technology guy, I think our field is the absolute worse with the "insider" lingo. Computer people need to learn how to communicate with those not in the business. Ditch the acronyms, nicknames, and peculiar turn of phrases and get back to basic English.

It isn't efficient communication if somebody doesn't know what you are talking about, regardless of how accurate and succinct it is.

[Cadillo]

It's funny, it works both ways. A lot of us are familiar with the mold numbers and when we hear a description we wonder if the person is talking about a particular mold number. Many of us recognize the bullets by mold numbers particularly the commerical molds like Lyman, RCBS and Saeco. For instance I know exactly what the 358009 looks like and instantly get a mental picture. If you gave a written description I might not understand exactly what bullet you were talking about. The number identifies it instantly to many of us. No arrogance involved, it just cuts to the chase a little quicker for many of us.

And what if your doctor were to try to describe to you your medical condition using only medical terms of art? He would know exactly what he was talking about, but unless you have some training or have done research in that field, you would walk away even more confused than when you walked in the door.

A lot of folks come here without a vast base of casting knowledge, expecting to learn. And while they may be extremely enlightened in other areas of life, their ignorance of this subject matter brings them here to learn about what we do, and requires that information to be presented to them at a basic level.

A man who truly wants to be heard and understood learns to speak to the lowest common denominator. But then, some are the other kind.

[Cadillo]

Provided the poster ever comes back to the thread, and then provided that he reads the request for a better description and THEN providing he decides to answer and THEN AGAIN providing the questioner comes back and finds that description, I suppose asking what a mould number means would work. Maybe. Occasionally.

Whereas simply saying "240 SWC (Lyman 429421)" once in a thread staves off the whole improbable series. But if that doesn't make sense to you, I give up.

Exactly right!

But don't expect everyone here to understand the simple truth of that logic. Many will either not get it, or worse yet, refuse to even ponder the simplicity of it, because they have made up their minds.

“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy

[montana_charlie]

Whereas simply saying "240 SWC (Lyman 429421)" once in a thread staves off the whole improbable series. But if that doesn't make sense to you, I give up.
I give up when I read the original offer...if I find it only provides a cryptic number which 'designates' but doesn't 'describe' the mould. A diameter and weight are the minimum to hold my attention long enough to consider owning that mould.

I don't know why so many recoil from writing a few descriptive words, but will bend over backward to provide 'pictures' of the most ordinary and unremarkable items you can imagine.

CM

[unclebill]

A man who truly wants to be heard and understood learns to speak to the lowest common denominator. But then, some are the other kind.

in mountaineering
no one goes faster than the slowest member.
dont leave anyone behind and lost.
and to the guys here that say LEARN OR LEAVE
i came HERE to learn.
isnt that why this site exists?
to exchange knowledge?

[Dannix]

One major aspect of communication is audience. Audience is key. Context is an aspect as well.


If I was trying to sell a mould, I'd be appealing to as large an audience as possible. If I don't clearly communicate what I'm trying to sell, then I could loose a sale. I'm not being discourteous per se, I'm being a poor salesman.

If I'm posting a question about accuracy with 311316, I'm only posting to those who know the 311316. I would most likely not describe the boolit -- if you don't know it, you're probably not my audience. The guys I really want to solicit insight from are the guys who know this boolit, no description needed.

If I was posting help in a thread, like "what's a good boolit for blahblahblah," I may mention a particular boolit type, nose type, weight et al and maybe give a particular model number to look at or often a link or two to a few threads I found helpful as a fellow newbie.

Make sense? Sometimes some handholding is needed by some members (e.g. me :mrgreen:). Most often complete handhold would just be a royal pain for season members when I could just go searching for it myself -- mature members shouldn't be expected to dumb down mature converstations. Sometimes, like when I couldn't figure out what precisely a bore is, I'll humble myself and ask, even when it could readily be considered a stupid question. I greatly appreciate the time and insight so readily given here!. I've also got to say I've learned a ton from searching things for I didn't understand. There's some real gold nuggets to be found in the search -- and too much handholding discourages independent study.

In a nutshell, be considerate, but you don't have to post all the time like you're talking to your grandson either. I think everyone an agree on this?

[462]

"...and too much handholding discourages independent study."

Exactly.

A bit of thread drift, but: I prefer to find the answer myself. Perhaps that's why I tend to ignore the threads that start "What's the best load for .XXX?" Or, "What's the best mould for .XXX?"

The answers are out there, especially in the Age of Google. There are 2370 Google results for Lyman 429421. For whatever reason, some people would rather ask than do any independent research.

[Suo Gan]

"Ten feet a second squared" ? G is kinda close to 10 meters per second squared, I suppose.

I suppose this officially makes me a picky sucker.
;-)

Bill

Maybe, maybe not :oops:.

[unclebill]

"...and too much handholding discourages independent study."

Exactly.

A bit of thread drift, but: I prefer to find the answer myself. Perhaps that's why I tend to ignore the threads that start "What's the best load for .XXX?" Or, "What's the best mould for .XXX?"

The answers are out there, especially in the Age of Google. There are 2370 Google results for Lyman 429421. For whatever reason, some people would rather ask than do any independent research.

which brings me back to how most of the time a quick search gives me a photo-price-etc. of said mould/boolit.
if i get skunked i ask.
i havent been insulted yet!
thanks.

[Bret4207]

is this really worth getting every one's hair in a knot over?

Happens every year about this time. Cabin fever sets in. If it wasn't this it'd be some other really important subject like whether the Lyman Ladle is superior to the RCBS ladle or whether 3% household ammonia is as effective as 5% house hold ammonia.

Find your personal "ignore this post button" and move along.

[unclebill]

if you get attacked for not knowing the secret code these guys speak in.
put the hostile ones on the ignore list. (luckily rare)
then pm the nice ones and ask them if it is ok to consult them for advice privately.
the results are twofold
1 you eliminate the negative feelings that being taked badly to engenders.
2 you complement the very ones you would llike advice from.
it's a win win!

[bigjake]

I guess I got my answer/answers :holysheep

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Many have a printer as we do so I ran copies of the lists supplied in the refrence section. A mold comes up.. I look at the numbers and the supplied picture on my paper copies and I generally know what is for sale. Oh I still prefer a real book to read also but then I am over 60.
But it is very nice when a visual aid is included.

[MiHec]

Can we have a pool on this one?

I can use results on my molds :wink:

[GLL]

I give up when I read the original offer...if I find it only provides a cryptic number which 'designates' but doesn't 'describe' the mould. A diameter and weight are the minimum to hold my attention long enough to consider owning that mould.

I don't know why so many recoil from writing a few descriptive words, but will bend over backward to provide 'pictures' of the most ordinary and unremarkable items you can imagine.

CM

Guilty ! :) :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/F2B9D5B8B8FEF9C/standard.jpg

[BABore]

Guilty ! :) :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/F2B9D5B8B8FEF9C/standard.jpg

Well, a picture is said to be worth a 1,000 words.

I bet Jerry has all them nice, captioned, shiny, boolit pics taped to the headboard of his bed. [smilie=6: :kidding:

Hmmm! BRP 460-325 GC (Hammer)

BRP = Mfg
460 = Diameter
325 = Weight
GC = Gas Check
Hammer = Group buy reference

Then a quick link to the website and you also get

0.785 OAL = How long it is
0.350 Nose = Nose length to crimp groove
0.380 Meplat = How big the flat is on the nose

plus "GB" and "K" notations that tell you it was a Cast Boolits group buy boolit designed by 45 2.1

and a perty line drawing.

If that ain't enough, just call and I'll tell you tough.[smilie=b:

[unclebill]

K stands for boolit designed by 45 2.1 ?
no wonder i get lost!!! :shock:

[GLL]

unclebill:

The "K" reference applies to the drawings on Bruce's BRP website catalog only as outlined in the notation there!

Jerry

[unclebill]

unclebill:

The "K" reference applies to the drawings on Bruce's BRP website catalog only as outlined in the notation there!

Jerry

once again
thank you.
i am not being lazy.
before anybody belittles me
everyday i come here and study the nomenclature of the casting fraternity.
it is a lot to absorb.
:drinks:

[MtGun44]

"it is a lot to absorb"

OH YEAH!

No belittling. But we ARE going to use abbreviations, acronyms and specialized terminology.

Just ask! We'll be happy to answer any reasonable number of questions at a reasonable level.

I suppose if you ask "What is a mold?" and "What is an alloy?" and "How come you guys
don't use normal jacketed bullets?", eventually you might wear out your welcome.
Study up some and you'll do just fine.

Besides the stickies are pretty easy to cruise through and will answer a LOT of questions
fairly painlessly.

Bill

[unclebill]

"it is a lot to absorb"

OH YEAH!

No belittling. But we ARE going to use abbreviations, acronyms and specialized terminology.

Just ask! We'll be happy to answer any reasonable number of questions at a reasonable level.

I suppose if you ask "What is a mold?" and "What is an alloy?" and "How come you guys
don't use normal jacketed bullets?", eventually you might wear out your welcome.
Study up some and you'll do just fine.

Besides the stickies are pretty easy to cruise through and will answer a LOT of questions
fairly painlessly.

Bill

i cant wait tilll i can say something like
i have a 225036
22536 225096
22596 225107
and a
225209
that i used linotype and unobtainium for buffalo hunting. :wink:

[MtGun44]

Unobtanium is GREAT for buffalo hunting, but unfortunately is getting
pretty hard to find.

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

[unclebill]

Unobtanium is GREAT for buffalo hunting, but unfortunately is getting
pretty hard to find.

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

well
a boy can dream...;)

[Doby45]

AND, it is 22 million an ounce. It is what funds your "science" stuff.

[unclebill]

AND, it is 22 million an ounce. It is what funds your "science" stuff.

can i use tin and antimony instead?
i heard it's cheaper...

[stubshaft]

Depends on the style of loob grooves you are using.

[Dannix]

I suppose if you ask "What is a mold?" and "What is an alloy?" and "How come you guys don't use normal jacketed bullets?", eventually you might wear out your welcome. Study up some and you'll do just fine.
Well, to help out the newbies, the first is that blue/green stuff that if it grows on bread people discard the bread as bad, but they will pay extra if it's in their cheese. The other one is like chromium steel. I prefer pure metal, not some suicide of metal like how kids mix coke. And the last one... I have no clue of what you speak. I can not tell a lie. What jacketed bullets?


and unobtainium for buffalo hunting.
I got in on the last GB before the prices shot up. It didn't work out for me, and I've trying to figure out how to get rid of it to free up space in the garage. It does start fires well when paired with a few diamonds.

[unclebill]

Well, to help out the newbies, the first is that blue/green stuff that if it grows on bread people discard the bread as bad, but they will pay extra if it's in their cheese. The other one is like chromium steel. I prefer pure metal, not some suicide of metal like how kids mix coke. And the last one... I have no clue of what you speak. I can not tell a lie. What jacketed bullets?


I got in on the last GB before the prices shot up. It didn't work out for me, and I've trying to figure out how to get rid of it to free up space in the garage. It does start fires well when paired with a few diamonds.

lee's website calls them molds

lyman calls em moulds
what is the significance?
i dunno...

[Bob Krack]

lee's website calls them molds

lyman calls em moulds
what is the significance?
i dunno...Yo Bill,
Tongue in cheek I have to say that Mold is a fungus - of sorts - and mould is a tool used to cast something, and in our case, boolits.

Of course the British say (spell) different hues as "colour" and many commercial producers of ammunition say (spell) the product "bullets".

In my house, as long as I can understand what you mean we will get along pretty well. I suspect the same goes here.

Good talking to ya the other day, hi to sweetie, call ya next weekend.

Bob

[unclebill]

i need to send yoo some boolit moulds.

[Linstrum]

Mold or mould? Bullet or boolit? JEEZ!!! Let's just spell it "MOOLD" to keep it in line with how we spell "BOOLIT" and "LOOB groove"!

All in favor say AYE!


rl947

[unclebill]

Mold or mould? Bullet or boolit? JEEZ!!! Let's just spell it "MOOLD" to keep it in line with how we spell "BOOLIT" and "LOOB groove"!

All in favor say AYE!


rl947

i too agree with yoo!

[Doby45]

Aye!!!

[MtGun44]

UH OH !

Bill

[unclebill]

to simplify things we could use this

məʊld




:veryconfu

[singleshot]

Because 358158swc isn't how Lee moulds are cataloged. Lee has 4 different 158 grain designs:

TL-358-158-SWC
C-358-158-SWC
TL-358-158-2R
C-358-158-RF

Any Lee mould designation that starts with a TL is a tumble lube design, a C is a standard lube groove.

358 is the nominal diameter.

158 is the nominal weight.

The last few digits explain the boolit design. SWC is a semi-wadcutter, 2R is a 2 radius ogive which is a long round nose, RF is a round nose flat point. Others that Lee uses for handgun are 1R which is a 1 radius "pointed" round nose, and TC for truncated cone.

I don't find anything at all difficult about the Lee nomenclature, and Lyman's isn't that difficult either.

Lee's method takes a little more time to type out but probably gives the best reference to what the design ACTUALLY is.


"C" in front refers to gas check, no "C" = no gas check.

[Linstrum]

I haven't read this from start to finish because of the great number of posts, so pardon me if someone has already said this.

ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF THE OWNERS FOR HAVING THIS PLACE IS TO MAKE IT EASY FOR NEWCOMERS. LET'S NOT FORGET THAT, we are only here with the owners' permission, so let's not disappoint them?

We really need to make the effort to do things the right way, what it boils down to is whether we are providing for the comfort of others by writing a boolit description, or providing for the selfish comfort of ourselves by being lazy and not writing an explanation of what it is we are talking about. Lazy people are despised the world over, and we are no different.

I am a retired teacher and college professor and I'll tell you that simply immersing newcomers into the middle of something as nonsensical as knowing dozens of mold numbers is the very last thing newcomers need to get started. We do need to clean up our act and spend a few minutes not being so darned lazy and define what the boolit is we are talking about, and simply typing a mold number doesn't do that. I know Lee and others use a code based on the dimensions of the boolit, but even sometimes I screw up and don't interpret the mold number right even though I've been using Lee molds since 1984. Being a hard nose and only giving a mold number does not help anyone know what boolit it drops, people pick this stuff up through understanding what it is, not by simply seeing a number.

It seems that we have forgotten that this place is meant for teaching newcomers and spreading the art of boolit casting, which means we have to teach the beginner as much as anyone, and we should do things to make it easier for the beginner, not harder, no one enjoys being given a hard time and humans have a bad habit of deliberately excluding newcomers to the "club". The first day you went to school they didn't expect you to perform at college level, it takes around 12 years to get students to that point, and learning about casting is no different even though it doesn't take anywhere near 12 years to get started.

Simply writing a mold number is NOT enough when writing about a specific boolit because I have better things to do than memorize large amounts of trivia about molds I will never see, own, or use. I think that the use of mold numbers is based on laziness because people don't like to type. In case you never noticed, when you go to a mold maker's catalog they DO HAVE A WRITTEN DESCRIPTION AND A DRAWING OF THE BOOLIT IT MAKES! The makers don't think their mold number is sufficient to tell folks about out, so why should we be any different?


rl951

[unclebill]

^
AMEN!
thanks for sticking up for us beginners.

[Doby45]

I haven't read this from start to finish because of the great number of posts, so pardon me if someone has already said this.

ONE OF THE PURPOSES OF THE OWNERS FOR HAVING THIS PLACE IS TO MAKE IT EASY FOR NEWCOMERS. LET'S NOT FORGET THAT, we are only here with the owners' permission, so let's not disappoint them?

We really need to make the effort to do things the right way, what it boils down to is whether we are providing for the comfort of others by writing a boolit description, or providing for the selfish comfort of ourselves by being lazy and not writing an explanation of what it is we are talking about. Lazy people are despised the world over, and we are no different.

I am a retired teacher and college professor and I'll tell you that simply immersing newcomers into the middle of something as nonsensical as knowing dozens of mold numbers is the very last thing newcomers need to get started. We do need to clean up our act and spend a few minutes not being so darned lazy and define what the boolit is we are talking about, and simply typing a mold number doesn't do that. I know Lee and others use a code based on the dimensions of the boolit, but even sometimes I screw up and don't interpret the mold number right even though I've been using Lee molds since 1984. Being a hard nose and only giving a mold number does not help anyone know what boolit it drops, people pick this stuff up through understanding what it is, not by simply seeing a number.

It seems that we have forgotten that this place is meant for teaching newcomers and spreading the art of boolit casting, which means we have to teach the beginner as much as anyone, and we should do things to make it easier for the beginner, not harder, no one enjoys being given a hard time and humans have a bad habit of deliberately excluding newcomers to the "club". The first day you went to school they didn't expect you to perform at college level, it takes around 12 years to get students to that point, and learning about casting is no different even though it doesn't take anywhere near 12 years to get started.

Simply writing a mold number is NOT enough when writing about a specific boolit because I have better things to do than memorize large amounts of trivia about molds I will never see, own, or use. I think that the use of mold numbers is based on laziness because people don't like to type. In case you never noticed, when you go to a mold maker's catalog they DO HAVE A WRITTEN DESCRIPTION AND A DRAWING OF THE BOOLIT IT MAKES! The makers don't think their mold number is sufficient to tell folks about out, so why should we be any different?


rl951

While I agree with you to a degree, this site was not intended to "spoon" feed people information either. Like MtGun44 said you ARE going to have people using abbreviations, that is just "part" of the hobby. It is not being done intentionally to piss newbies off; it is done because that is what we do. When I first joined here if there was something I didn't understand I took the time to either ask or look it up myself. But now a days we live in a society that expects everything to be given to them, be it welfare, a job, an opportunity or information. What ever happened to the America that I grew up in that required you to have a bit of desire in yourself to learn something and then hunger for more.

Every hobby I have ever been involved in has it's own nomenclature, abbreviations and tech speak. This is one of those times when you either hop on the train and enjoy the ride or stay on the platform and complain about all the places you have never been.

And the scolding tone of absolute righteous indignation is not necessary, we are all grown men and women here.

[MtGun44]

" writing a mold number is NOT enough when writing about a specific boolit because I have better
things to do than memorize large amounts of trivia about molds I will never see, own, or use. I
think that the use of mold numbers is based on laziness because people don't like to type."

Good grief. Get a grip and grow up a bit. Abbreviations are normal, not gonna change
here or anywhere except in the 1st grade.

Sounds like you want to be handed the info on a silver platter. And when you start slinging
around rude terms like lazy maybe you should look in the mirror.

Tons of free info, high quality help available here. Please enjoy and don't get so cranked up
over something so inconsequential. If you don't know a mold number - look it up on CastPics.
There is a pretty darned complete listing for Lyman, H&G and Saeco there. Also the search function
and stickies provide a lot of info.

And so you don't get cranky about THAT, here is the spoon fed link: http://www.castpics.net/

Bill

[unclebill]

this site isnt geared towards beginners.
and i dont think that was what the creator had in mind.
it seems to be a place for guys that have been doing it for years (if not decades) to trade technical information.
the guys here are nice.
but they are all so far ahead of me that many times i am afraid to ask what to me is a perfectly sensible question
but to you is childsplay.
so i P.M. people and ask them.

the good thing about hangin with the big dogs is.
when i do ask a question publicly.
i do a thourough search

and think real hard before posting.

[unclebill]

i liken it to going to a custom car forum and asking.
whats a manifold?

[Cadillo]

i liken it to going to a custom car forum and asking.
whats a manifold?

No. It's like going to a custom car forum and being expected to know what the poster means when he says "That MF just wouldn't work".

All people are products of their environments and life experiences, which can be quite varied. " MF" can mean whatever the reader perceives it to mean, but "manifold" as is related to automobiles is quite easily understood.

All these letter codes just amount to laziness and or an attempt to disguise a lack of spelling and thus communication skills. It's amazing how many people try to glorify that situation.

I think that Rush Limbaugh refers to it as the "Dumbing Down of America".

[Doby45]

Yhea, good luck with that. Maybe some other site would be willing to spoon feed you the information you want given to you. The whole lazy moniker is childish and does not fit the situation. I reckon every time we want to say TUMBLE LUBE we should say TUMBLE LUBE instead of TL. This would please Cadillo and should be our new process so that we can prove we are not "lazy".

[Dennis Eugene]

I'm not stupid I can learn. Mold #'s good enough for me. Dennis

[Doby45]

Hush your mouth Dennis, how dare you learn. ;)

[MtGun44]

Cadillo "Lazyness and dumbing down of America." Yeah, right, abbreviations
are going to be the end of the country.

You have a really great attitude. Most folks here are a lot more positive
and friendly than that. I suggest that you adjust your "nice setting" a bit
higher if you want to get along on this site. This sort of unpleasant
attitude will not get you much here. I'll avoid bothering you in the future.

Guys like Dennis will find a whole bunch of folks eager to assist, but we will
be using some abbreviations and shorthand, sorry to say.

Bill

[Dannix]

I would think the dumbing down of America would have more to do with some not willing to do their homework... or reading... or doing anything for themselves at all on their own like this is, or was, the land of opportunity rather than, as I've heard some declare, "I have a right to an American way of life."

I think Bill has said everything that needs to be said. I find this thread terribly ironic as I have found, as a newbie, that the posters here are more than willing to help along a newbie. Demanding to be spoon feed, or demanding anything period, is quite absurd.

[462]

"A man who truly wants to be heard and understood learns to speak to the lowest common denominator."

"...the "Dumbing Down of America"."

Cadillo, both those quotes are yours. Could it be that the reason America has been dumbed down is that the lowest common denominator has been spoken to for too long?