cast bullets small ring mauser

[rp85]

hello;

have a 1916 spanish masuer in 308win. anyone have this type of mauser rilfe and shoot cast bullets in their rifle???? if so, what are you shooting, bullets and powder???

thanks for any input.

rp

[whisler]

I have the same rifle that I also plan to use with cast but have not as yet. I will watch this thread with interest.

[pls1911]

Ranch dog, Lyman 31141, or Saeco #316. cast hard, size .310.
Look in Lyman cast bullet handbook for references and bunches of loads, start with 25 grains Reloader 7 and go from there.
Great guns... picked up 4 near new for $69 each... had to dremmel the claw extractors for perfect functioning, and one "disappeared" in a divorce...

[DIRT Farmer]

Lyman 311-291 seated out, sized .312 12 grns of Green Dot. My youngest son shot a lot of lead through his, before Unkie Sugar courpted him into shooting little shiny things out of a M-4.

[357maximum]

My go to load for my 20 inch 308 spaniard sporter is:

Milsurp 308 match brass
BRP 308-165-Silhouette Boolit (Wd'ed 50WW/50PB) (MML lube)
38.0 H335
CCI 200 Sparkplug

Other than chopping the barrel off, throwing the barrel bands over my shoulder and then setting the action in a glass bedded boyds walnut sporter stock, and installing aftemarket parts and sights the gun is all original. [smilie=l:[smilie=l:[smilie=l: I did not touch the bolt or bolt handle though. :lol:

I use a Williams reciever sight and a small brass beaded ramp and it will do 1 to 1.5 MOA when I am doing my part and sometimes a touch better when the nut behind the bolt is having a good day. On a real bad day it...errrrrrr...I will shoot 2moa with this load. Similar intensity loads using W748, BLC2 act pretty much identical in this toy.

[rp85]

hello;

thanks for the load info and not a lecture on how this rifle can't take high pressure. knew from the get go about pressure issues and have imposed a limit of 45K# on reloads.

have several 308 molds, r.c.b.s. 180fn and a lee 190fn. discovered these bullets must be seated to a max length of 2.65". tight chamber? bullet nose shape bumps into lands.

have fired reloads with jacket bullets using ww748 and 180 grain bullets. noticed, based on the way the primer looks, the rifle can't be pushed with
ww748. will try imr3031 and h335 next.

cast load of 17 grains of 2400 and the r.c.b.s. bullet produced a group of
1.0"x1.25" at 50 yards.

if i wish to load several rounds of cast bullets into the magazine i must have a max c.o.l. length of 2.510". any longer, if trying to cycle the action the next round will "jam" at an angle while trying to feed a round into the chamber.

it will be next week before i can try additional reloads. so far accuracy with jacket bullets not very good, 6-8" groups at 100 yards.

operator error and 65 year old eyes?!?!!? accuracy just might be a work in progress.

rp

[Larry Gibson]

Been shooting .308Ws in FR7s and FR8s for years. 311291, 311041 and 311299 are my choices for regular loads with 311291 being the usual choice. Very hard to beat 28 - 30 gr 4895 (any flavor) with a 1/2 gr dacron filler under any of them. I've used different cases, commercial & milsurp, and various primers. Accuracy is always excellent. Alloy is usually WW + 2% tin AC'd with Hornady or my own GCs and Javelina lube. I size at .311.

Larry Gibson

[HangFireW8]

My youngest son shot a lot of lead through his, before Unkie Sugar courpted him into shooting little shiny things out of a M-4.

Can't blame a young man for finding unlimited free ammo appealing!

-HF

[HangFireW8]

have fired reloads with jacket bullets using ww748 and 180 grain bullets. noticed, based on the way the primer looks, the rifle can't be pushed with
ww748. will try imr3031 and h335 next.

OK, let's stop right there.

Unless the primer has an extruded teat extending into the firing pin hole, if you are going by primer flatness, you are not seeing pressure signs.

What you are seeing is the primer expanding into the free space behind the case, and then the case later extending over it and flattening it out. A lot of folks take this to mean high pressure, but it ain't necessarily so.

This is usually a sizing die adjustment issue, not a pressure issue. If you back off the sizing die until sized cases just barely fit in the chamber, I'll bet the problem goes away, and you might even find round edges on the primer again.

It took me years to figure this out, and then I bought Phil Sharpe's 1937 masterpiece and found out he'd been harping on this very issue way back then. Still, you see flat primers being equated to high pressure without a second thought in reloading literature and magazine articles even till today.

Your rifle should be a natural with W748, even somewhat reduced loads for cast boolits. I bought a Stoney Point case comparator to sort out sizing headspace issues like this (now a Hornady product), but it can be figured out by simply trying sized cases in the chamber and backing the die out until no longer fits (or going the other way, which will save you some overly-resized cases).
-HF

[HangFireW8]

rp85,

A further thought, take a look at your 2400 fired cases before you decap and resize them. Does the primer stick out a few thousandths, when you seated them flush? That's how much you need to back off the sizing die.

-HF

[rp85]

primers with 2400 look great. look like just seated primers only a mark where the fring pin hit.

different story with ww748, using a 180 grain speer, started at 42.0 grains, by 43 grains primer almost completely flat, firing pin mark just round cavity. speed jumped 75fps between 43.0 and 43.5 grains. the big jump in speed made back off. no rounded edge of primer at 43.5 grain of ww748

thanks for all the input.
rp

[HangFireW8]

Yeah, I agree. Over 43 grains of W748 could definitely be on the hot side with 180's/190's.

[357maximum]

That load is about 45,000+ psi.........I limit my little spaniard to 42,000 to 43,000 or thereabouts but it is your gun, your face, and your life so this should just be taken as an internet fact and make your own conclusions/decisions.

Lyman/RCBS/Others make and sell really nice cast bullet books for such ventures by the way. :kidding:

[brstevns]

Been shooting .308Ws in FR7s and FR8s for years. 311291, 311041 and 311299 are my choices for regular loads with 311291 being the usual choice. Very hard to beat 28 - 30 gr 4895 (any flavor) with a 1/2 gr dacron filler under any of them. I've used different cases, commercial & milsurp, and various primers. Accuracy is always excellent. Alloy is usually WW + 2% tin AC'd with Hornady or my own GCs and Javelina lube. I size at .311.

Larry Gibson

Just wondering , have you used this load on any deer? Say small size whitetail?

[Kraschenbirn]

I've tried several boolits in my 1916 Spanish and, so far, it seems to like the ol' reliable 311291 is gonna be the choice to beat. Haven't been able to lay hands on any 4895 lately so, for now, I've settled on 33.0 gr. of IMR4350 with a tuft of dacron and a W-W primer. Also, planning to try some lighter boolits...like the Lee 312-155 or the Lyman 311466...over 16-18 gr. 2400 for a plinker load but haven't gotten around to it, yet.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Just wondering , have you used this load on any deer? Say small size whitetail?

Not on white tail but on black tails in the 150+/- lb size. Used the 311041 which is HP'd 3/16" deep and cast soft for expansion to 200 yards. Pushed to 1950 fps out with 4895 + the Dacron filler out of this FR8 modified into what I consider to be the perfect "scout" rifle. Have also used that load out of a couple other short barreled .308Ws on deer. The FR8 now wears a Burris 2x7 Scout scope now though.

Larry Gibson

86477

BTW; I also have shot out 2 Star barrels in .308W on my own M1916 action (Oviedo '28) and used that load also but they were 24" barrels. That rifle has been rebarreled with a new 2 groove "03A3 barrel set back and chambered for my own cast bullet cartridge which I call the .308 CBC. Simply a .308W with the shoulder set back so the neck is '06 neck length and case oal is 2.0". CBC cartridge is on left with standard .308W on right. Same M1916 SR action is still going strong.

86479

[starmac]

Dumb question coming here. A friend of mine has an fr8 in 308. He hasn't shot it a lot, but what he has, has always been with factory ammo, is this not safe in these?

[brstevns]

Not on white tail but on black tails in the 150+/- lb size. Used the 311041 which is HP'd 3/16" deep and cast soft for expansion to 200 yards. Pushed to 1950 fps out with 4895 + the Dacron filler out of this FR8 modified into what I consider to be the perfect "scout" rifle. Have also used that load out of a couple other short barreled .308Ws on deer. The FR8 now wears a Burris 2x7 Scout scope now though.

Larry Gibson

86477

BTW; I also have shot out 2 Star barrels in .308W on my own M1916 action (Oviedo '28) and used that load also but they were 24" barrels. That rifle has been rebarreled with a new 2 groove "03A3 barrel set back and chambered for my own cast bullet cartridge which I call the .308 CBC. Simply a .308W with the shoulder set back so the neck is '06 neck length and case oal is 2.0". CBC cartridge is on left with standard .308W on right. Same M1916 SR action is still going strong.

86479

Thanks for the reply. I just got a Spanish 1916 in 308, believe this is a model 95 mauser. Plan on using cast only in it. The small blacktails you mentioned are about the size of the small whitetails I hunt. I have a 311291 mould and a Lee 180gr 312 mold wondering if it will work as well? Once again thank you.

[Larry Gibson]

Dumb question coming here. A friend of mine has an fr8 in 308. He hasn't shot it a lot, but what he has, has always been with factory ammo, is this not safe in these?

Quite safe. The FR8 is a M98 LR Mauser. Having measured the psi of a lot of milsurp 7.62 NATO, a lot of .308W, several different brands of 7x57 commercial ammo and numerous different milsurp 7x57 of Spanish and European make going back to 1913 I can say the thought that 7x57 is held to 45k psi is not correct. The confusion is often from comparing CUP Pressure to modern peizo-transducer pressure measurements. I've found most commercial .308W and milsurp 7x57 pressures to fall in the same range of 53k to 59k psi.

The spanish manual for the FR7 & FR8 shows standard 7.62 NATO ammunition for use with both rifles. Not wanting to open that debate again as cast bullet loads of low -medium psi are acceptable for both rifles. Just stating facts in lieu of perceived conceptions.

Larry Gibson

[starmac]

Thanks for that info Larry. I am not really into military guns, but this is a very handy carbine. Can you tell me what is suppose to be in the tube under the barrel?

[birddog1148]

cleaning kit I think

[starmac]

Possibly, but it is pretty small.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for that info Larry. I am not really into military guns, but this is a very handy carbine. Can you tell me what is suppose to be in the tube under the barrel?

As mentioned it is for a cleaning kit and to give the "look and feel" of the CETME. The FR7/FR8s were training and substitute rifles for the CETME until production of the CETME could meet the demand. BTW; the 7.62 CETME cartridge is simply a downloaded 7.62 NATO to ensure reliable functioning in the original non-fluted chambered CETME rifles. While the CETME rifle was designed for use with the 7.62 NATO cartridge it would not reliably extract the fired case. Thus the less pressure 7.62 CETME cartridge was developed for reliable function until they figured out that fluting the chambers gave reliable extraction with full powered loads. The original CETMA rifles were recalled and rebarrelled or had the chambers fluted. Once that was done the 7.62 CETMA ammunition went out of production. I have a hundred or so rounds of the CETMA ammunition and it is somewhat interesting. The development of the 7.62 CETMA cartridge had nothing to do with the FR7/FR8 rifles as many believe and would have you believe.

Larry Gibson

[starmac]

Thanks for the history, on a neat firearm. What kind of accuracy is the F8 capable of. I like the sight that it has, it is pretty nice for older eyes. lol
I have a VZ24 (I think) 30/06 and the sight was designed for VERY good eyesight. lol

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the history, on a neat firearm. What kind of accuracy is the F8 capable of. I like the sight that it has, it is pretty nice for older eyes. lol
I have a VZ24 (I think) 30/06 and the sight was designed for VERY good eyesight. lol

The barrel on my FR8 was canted off to the right and I never could get the pseudo CETME sights to zero windage wise. So I set the barrel back half a thread and refaced the inner and outer shoulders which squared up the barrel, finish reamed the setback chamber and removed the issue sights fore and aft. The barrel was turned down so a SA scout mount for the M1A would clamp on it and the hand guard inletted for it. The receiver was D&T'd for the Lyman SME receiver sight and a spanner nut matching the barrel muzzle threads in lieu of the castle nut was made for the M14 flash suppressor. I much prefer that sight picture over the pseudo CETME one.

Mine is capable (with the 1.5X Burris scope that was on it) of 1 - 1.5 moa with match 7.62 loads. It holds the 1st 5 shots of the 311041HP hunting load right at 2 moa at 200 yards. Haven't really wrung it out with the 2-7 Burris Scout scope on it yet.

Larry Gibson

[starmac]

Good info, I doubt he ever goes the scope route, but I have that mold and it gives us something to shoot for.