First Cast Boolits down range, need advice

[sh00ter787]

Got my first boolits down range at the weekend, all in all I was quite happy - accuracy seemed ok but I was just testing that they went bang really and the load was right (I'm going for the bench this weekend to test accuracy)

They are Lee CTL312-160 tumble lubed with Lee Alox thinned with some white spirit, I then sized them to .312 and gave them another very light tumble lube. Boolit weight was 165gn give or take a couple of .10's. Alloy was pretty much 20:1

The boolits were coated in what seemed to me a very thin layer of Alox, the shinyness of the lead was dulled slightly and they felt mildly sticky. Loaded into 7.62x39 with 15gn of 2400 behind them and shot out of my 12" barreled Saiga.

My question is this.....
They seemed to be smoking a lot! Cue lots of ribbing at range about shooting black powder through an AK.....I am assuming too much lube??

Everything else was fine, case expansion was good with no sooting at all, cases came out really clean. I cant really think how i can put less lube on them, unless the lubing after sizing was too much? Thoughts please :p

[44man]

I hate Alox in any form and never figured out why it was picked as a boolit lube.
I have been convinced for 50 years that the stuff burns in the barrel. The flash point seems to be low.

[geargnasher]

Use real lube if you don't like the smoke. You probably did use too much despite knowing and trying not to, it's easy to do with LLA, but it's still smokey stuff. The proof is in the accuracy, whether the bore leads or not, and if YOU are happy with your load. If your buddies at the range don't like the smoke, fill a few cases to the base of the necks with FFg and next time, if you get complaints, show them what black powder REALLY looks like!

Gear

[chris in va]

They are Lee CTL312-160 tumble lubed with Lee Alox thinned with some white spirit, I then sized them to .312 and gave them another very light tumble lube

No need to do this. Cast, size then tumble with Johnson Paste Wax/mineral spirits. No gummed up dies, no tackiness, dries in two hours under a fan. You may not even need to size anyway, depending what they drop at. I go ahead and size my 312's because I'm using a gas check.

They'll still smoke though. Put a hundred of the 311-155's through my Saiga and there was a fair amount of fog hanging over my bench.

[targetshootr]

The powder could make the difference. I tried Power Pistol in my revolver loads once and it looked like I was in a civil war re-enactment. Gah.

[onondaga]

Try a Double Base powder like Accurate 5744. I think the same reason that double base powders bang louder is the reason you will get less smoke. The nitroglycerin detonation combined with the nitrocellulose burn of 5744 is too fast to ignite the lube beyond the muzzle. I get a better lube star on muzzles and less smoke when I use double base powders.

Try the 45-45-10 mix for tumble lube, it smokes significantly less than straight LLA and performance is equal every time I have tried it.

Sometimes a little controlled detonation can be very effective.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/barbie3.jpg
This Non Smoking Barbie is activated with a double base powder.

Gary

[sh00ter787]

thanks for the replies, I have wanted to make a tumble lube with JPW but have not seen it this side of the pond, is it a very specific working ingredient in that nothing else works as well or should I look for something over here with the "magic" ingredient in?

onondaga: thanks for that, 5744 is on my list next time I get powder :)

[onondaga]

Didn't know you were across the pond. The Alox Corporation that makes LLA for Lee is literally in my back yard, a very short distance from my home. In fact local bullet casters will go there at lunch time when the workers are milling in the lot and get free Alox, up to a quart, if you bring your own container.

LLA is manufactured as an automotive rust preventative for high pressure spray application. Some Auto manufacturers use it in production and some service shops offer it as Bardall under-spray rust preventative treatment service for autos. It is a blend of petroleum products and distillates with a self polymerizing resin. it is actually, chemically very similar to military "cosmoline" long term rust preventative with the addition of a resin.. I don't believe the resin is the essential proprietary ingredient and is likely something like a little pine pitch in the Alox.

A good substitute for the Johnson's Paste Wax in the 45-45-10 would be any good quality Neutral Colored shoe paste wax for polishing shoes to a shine.

You will likely have no difficulty getting the Mineral spirits at most paint or hardware stores for the 10% of the mix.

So see what you can get to mix up your across the pond version of 45-45-10 and have some fun.


I heat the paste wax on low in a small pan till it melts, stir in LLA, then remove from heat and stir in the spirits. Allow to cool then re-bottle.

I wouldn't hesitate to try 40% Cosmoline, 5% pine pitch, 45% Neutral Shoe Polish, and 10% Mineral spirits. I bet it would be perfect for a tumble lube!

Gary

[sh00ter787]

cool, thanks for the info, im certain to give it a bash - im kinda hooked now on using "everyday" ingredients just for the experimentation. I always enjoy working up loads more than shooting them when i get to a good one...
I have a pound or so of beeswax sitting on my bench, would that be worth using as the "wax" part of the 45-45-10 mix?

[onondaga]

Bees wax is used in many traditional bullet lubes but for tumble lube, the waxes in mixture with solvents ( JPW) is the key as the solvents evaporate and leave the wax in place for a lube. Stay with Johnsons or neutral shoe polish for mixing a tumble lube. Polishing waxes "Dry " quickly, Just recall how long you wait after applying shoe polish before you buff your shoes.

Besides, personally, I hate bees wax, I put it on my archery bow string to prevent fraying and it draws flies, a lot of flies in the summer, right in front of my face. I hate bees wax.---That is a cultural thing for me. I am a Shaman of the Genesse Oogabooga Clan and my tribal name is Fly Hunter.


Gary

[sh00ter787]

lol - thanks again, I got the beeswax for when I get around to pan lubing (I want to try everything but at present its baby steps!)

Neutral shoe polish it is then :D

[sh00ter787]

i have just shot these from the bench and ive gotta say i was disapointed....

full length resized cases
15gn 2400
CTL312-160 sized to .312
CT312-155 sized to .312

the 160's were from the first batch above tumbled, sized then tumbled again
the 155's were tumbled then sized

I had issues with neck tension being too high and shaving the boolits, so i used some pliers (thanks another thread!) just to open the necks a little, they all seated fine with no shaving after that.

fired from 2 saiga's (1 a 12" barrel and 1 a 16" barrel)

accuracy was just terrible, about 8" at 50yrds, no sign of tumbling though (my 16" will clover leaf all rounds if I do my job with my normal jacketed load)

I am thinking it could be several things but would just like advice on if I am going in the wrong direction or have missed something simple
1, neck tension too high (a had a couple necks split in the 16", this had never happened to me before) I have a neck size die that i will try at .311
2, boolit size wrong (will get barrels swaged when I can get some pure lead) no signs of leading but will try some unsized ones that dropped.313
3, powder weight too much or little (15gn I have read is a good load for these boolits in x39 though - should i try lower or higher?)

in that order should i be on the right track, or from your experience is one (or one i havnt though of!) likely to be the culprit?

the 12" normally prints between 2-3 inches at 50 (its unscoped) and the 16" makes just one ragged hole (its scoped! lol)

[onondaga]

The letter "C" at the beginning of the mold number designates that the molds you are using are designed for gas checks. Are you using gas checks or not? You can have pretty poor accuracy shooting bullets designed for gas checks without gas checks because the bottom shank of the bullet is reduced in diameter to fit a gas check. Without a gas check in place, the reduced shank area is a partially opened doorway to invite gas jetting past the bullet as the bullet travels down the bore. The jetting physically cuts the bullet so it will be deformed and off balance as it leaves the muzzle. This should be expected to be a disaster for accuracy like you are seeing.

You previously mentioned that case expansion is good and cases come out clean with that powder charge, so you have enough pressure to seal the case mouth with the 15 grains of 2400.

You understand that the pressure is enough to change the brass by your word. The pressure is also enough to change the lead and allow gas jetting without a gas check in place to seal the bottom of the bullet in the bore and protect it from having an easy place for gas jetting to start.

You could possibly get away without gas check with a very hard alloy like straight Linotype, but your present alloy with a gas check would likely be much more accurate.

If you don't have some gas checks, get some 30 caliber and try them. They are installed and crimped with the Lee bullet sizing die when you size..

Lee currently has no plain base bullet molds in 30 caliber at all, all Lee 30 cal. molds are "C" molds. Plain base bullets don't require gas checks, however, plain base bullets in general are much more limited to lower velocity.

Also, be aware that gas jetting with cast bullets causes molten lead spray to move along in the bore at bullet velocity and enter into your gas system destructively damaging gas operated semi-auto firearm systems. If the poor accuracy you are getting is due to no gas checks and gas jetting, stop shooting that ammo without gas checks or you will be much more unhappy with serious damage to your firearm gas systems being rendered unoperable.

Gary

[sh00ter787]

Thanks a lot Gary for you reply, I wanted to "get away" without using gas checks if possible - I was wanting a light plinking load so cost is a concern.
But I'll take your advice on board and make a batch up with some installed :)