452 measures 454 shoot or size?

[Dan H]

I cast a bunch of Lee TL452-200-SWC. Used straight clean WW lead.
They all calibrate to 454 but sqeeze down to 452 with moderate finger pressure on caliper jaws.
I loaded one in an empty case and crimped as I normally do with other boolits, and it chambered easily.

Should I load and shoot the rest? Resize? or throw back in the pot and get another mold?


Thanks for the input.


Dan H


Nancy Pelowho?? 3rd in line to be commander in what??

[drinks]

DAN;
Lee intended the TL series of bullets to be used unsized, just tumble lubed with Liquid Alox, whenever possible.
As your's load and chamber, just go shoot and be happy!

[44man]

How can moderate finger pressure squeeze them .002"?

[454PB]

You must have some powerful fingers!

They should shoot fine at .454 if they chamber freely.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't care if it is a tumble lube boolit or not, with handguns, I liquid alox them and then try them unsized, most times it works and saves me a whole lot of fuss. Sorry if you have heard this before, but it makes life so much easier.
Mick.

[DPD]

DanH,
I just posted some information relevant to your question. It's under "What do I
know". The cast boolit shooter in that case has success shooting unlubed cast
boolits. Maybe we give lube more credit that it deserves; making sure the boolit
is over or equal to bore size is more critical than the lube. Anyway I don't think
I have the venturesome spirit required to shoot unlubed pb's, but I do make sure
my cast boolits are either unsized or minimally sized.
Don

[arkypete]

I cast and load for a bucket full of 45 Colts, mostly S&Ws.
All of my bullets are sized .454, including the bullets for the Rossi 92 clone.
It's my experience that one or two thousandths in cast bullets is of little concern.
Jim

[44man]

DPD, I don't think lube gets enough credit! Ever since I started casting I have been in a lube testing mode. That is over 51 years. Back then nobody thought about making their own and there were not very good lubes to play with and sending for lube was a pain and expense. Now we are very fortunate to have all kinds.
Every time I have found the perfect throat size boolit with super accuracy I have found just changing the lube or consistancy can have a dramatic effect on accuracy and leading. I think this is where I got into the habit of testing at 50 yd's and farther with revolvers because 25 yd's just doesn't show anything except leading issues. I can shoot my guns for months without cleaning and without a spec of lead and my average 50 yd group size runs about 1" with all of my revolvers, some a little larger and some much smaller. I can double or triple groups with just a lube change! And besides all I read here about LLA, it has always been the worst for me, causing leading and larger groups. (Now don't start jumping on me, telling me my boolits are the wrong size!)
So far, some of the LBT lubes, Felix and Lar's carnauba red do everything I want. I have never found any other production lube to work as good.
Every one has a different criteria for accuracy, some satisfied with 1-1/2 to 3" groups at 25 yd's. Others just want something to go bang with hundreds of shots on steel and only need to stop leading. Every one gets different mileage and results so I will not say wrong about different opinions.
Once in a while I buy a gun that will not get tight groups even after working with throats, forcing cones, tight spots, breaking in the bore and fitting a boolit. I will give up after working hundreds of loads and sell the gun. One was a beautiful 7-1/2" Ruger Bisley Hunter that shot just fine for hunting out to 100 yd's but would not do what I wanted it to do.
Now I am older and vision is not good, I wave around more offhand and need a scope or red dot with sandbags. What I used to do with open sights is long gone. However what I expect from a gun has not changed and the right lube is very important to me.
If you just stick to one lube only, you are handicapping yourself a tremendous amount. It is the same as using only one primer, one boolit or one powder for every gun you shoot.

[DPD]

44MAN,
Point well taken. I've been casting and shooting for only 35 years, yet I know
exactly what you mean about deteriorating eyesight and shooting 50 yard groups.
I myself have seen obvious changes in group sizes just by switching lubes. I had
a Hammerli P240 target pistol that never leaded with cast boolits and any decent
lube. It had a definite preference for RCBS's green lube. Every time I loaded up some Hornady lead hollow base wadcutters in that gun, it would start leading
within 25 rounds.
Nonetheless, long experience can make us entrenched in our opinions. All I ask
is that you keep an open mind in perusing the following information even if it runs
contrary to your personal observations. I know it didn't ring true when I first read
it, but then I've never tried shooting unlubed projectiles.
"The function of bullet lubes is not yet understood by the
shooting community - that is why lubricant development for bul-
lets is a empirical rather than by design. It is interesting to
note that really good lubricants, as judged by traditional engi-
neering standards, seldom make good bullet lubes. It seems that
waxes or a high level of wax makes the best bullet lubes. Be-
cause wax viscosities are so temperature dependent, a change in
ambient temperature results in, effectively, a "different" lu-
bricant, and, at least theoretically, different performance.

There is recent evidence that bullet lube may not serve any practical
purpose in at least some types of shooting. People like Ken Mollahan from
the CBA have documented experiments using dry cast bullets at 2000 fps or so
where no lube was used and no leading was experienced. This may sound like
heresy to the old timers like me, but as we learn more about what makes
non-jacketed bullets shoot well, many of the old wive's tales fall away.

My own shooting with up to magnum pistol velocities has convinced me that
lube is a waist of time, material, and money. I routinely load non-lubed
bullets (8 BHN; pretty darn soft) for all my target loads now. This does
require that the bullet fit the throat well, however."

[DPD]

Here I go again with Goeff Kotzar's writing. The ideas are thought provoking, even
if you don't agree with all that is said:


#Lead is soft and it melts at high temperature.

It melts at 620 F.

#Softer bullets tend to have lower melting points and are more prone to
#leading.

Softer bullets contain more lead than harder bullets and melt at somewhat
higher temperatures than harder ones. For instance, linotype, about the
hardest bullet alloy commonly used by casters melts at 474 F. Most other
alloy mixes are somewhere in between that and 620 F.

#Currently the Oregon Trail stuff leaves behind the least amount of lead.
#The heat of the burning powder can melt lead and cause some to be left in
#bore, usually at the breach end.

From available evidence, the above cannot be demonstrated. Examination of
unprotected bullet bases after firing nearly always shows powder peening but
no evidence of melting, nor even significant softening. The heat is in
contact with the bullet base for about 3 milliseconds during a typical
launching scenario and the heat transfer characteristics of lead/lead alloy
bullets simply do not allow enough heat transfer to accomplish melting
during this brief encounter.

Lead deposited in the breach end is principally from gas cutting. Due to a
poor gas seal, the gases jet past an undersized bullet, especially along the
trailing edges of the lands. This gas cutting can be virtually eliminated
by proper bullet fit. No matter how hard the alloy, an undersized bullet
will lead the bore.

Contrary to conventional knowledge, leading can often be minimized or
eliminated by using a SOFTER, rather than a harder bullet. This is very
often the case when hard but undersized bullets cause leading. The softer
alloy offers the advantage of, upon ignition, bumping up to fit the throat,
thus providing the very important gas seal.

>As the bullet travels down the barrel the rifleing twists the bullet up to
a >speed that will spin stabilize it in flight. The inertia of the bullet
>resists this twisting action, and in cases where the resistance overcomes
>the hardness of the bullet the bullet will strip off the rifleing and
leaves >gobs of lead in the bore.

Whether bullets strip the rifling has been a long running discussion. Some
hold that it is impossible and have put forth pretty convincing evidence in
the form of computer models of materials and the forces induced during the
acceleration scenario using finite element analysis; along with samples of
actual bullets fired at high velocities. Others have submitted photographic
evidence of the stripping, some of which has proven to be gas cutting
induced when examined closely. However, stripping has not been associated
with leading. The point here is that stripping is not a problem for those
who use a little prudence in their alloy selection, and is certainly not a
leading concern.

>The amount of leading also varies with the quality of the lube on the bullet.
>Most use some variety of wax that melts and provides lubrication while the
>bullet travels down the bore.

[44man]

Some very good points here! I have never tried a dry boolit and just might do it one day. I have, however recovered boolits that were too soft for the speed I drove them and found evidence of stripping where the rifling land marks were wider then the rifling, tapered with land size at one end and wider at the other, with no gas cutting on them. Bases were still perfect. A harder alloy solved the stripping.
There is no way to melt the base of a boolit and only a poor fitting one that allows gas to escape around it will cut and lead the bore. I even have doubts as to whether lube melts in the bore except some right on the surface from friction. Boolits recovered with lube still in the grooves show no indication that it had melted and a hard lube even had rifling marks in it. I have not found any indication that the grease grooves were squeezed smaller to pump out lube either and think inertia and spin is what spreads the lube to the bore. Then there is hydraulic action from the lands forcing themselves into the grease space, since the lube will not compress, it has to go somewhere.
I am a firm believer that softer lube should be used in revolvers. I like Felix as it is with no paraffin added so I can just force it in the grooves with my finger. Any hard lube that breaks and falls out of grooves is junk. It needs to be a little sticky. I also think the lube should spin out of the grooves on muzzle exit or distribute itself evenly around the boolit from centifugal force and not break off in junks to throw a boolit out of balance. Nothing worse then picking up a boolit with pieces of hard lube left in one side.
I find too slippery a lube is also not good and can see the results in the BPCR rifle. Lube with molly is real bad for poor SD's and stringing. In the muzzle loader a smooth bore will group but a highly polished bore will not group no matter what lube is used. No matter what gun, smooth is good but a super polished bore is not. (I hate a chrome plated muzzle loader bore to no end!)
Now what I don't understand is that I just cleaned a revolver after about 600 rounds ( With no loss of accuracy.) with a good fitting boolit and Lar's lube along with Felix and found zero leading. If I take that same boolit and apply LLA, accuracy is gone and the bore will lead badly. What will a dry boolit do? Remember that I only shoot hunting loads most of the time and they are the most accurate loads I can make. Plinking loads are only used for close range tin can shooting and don't matter to me. Minute of can is good enough.

[44man]

I just went down and took a picture of a paint can I shot at 100 yd's. The top holes have 5 shots from my BFR 45-70 revolver through them. Just above center to the left is a hole from my .475 BFR. (The can was turned when shot.) The 45-70 had Felix lube and the .475 had Carnauba Red.
The other holes at the bottom were shot with a friends .45 ACP H&K rifle.
I gave my friend my 45-70 to try and hit it and he shot low, hitting my steel rail. It went through one side of the thick steel and almost got out the other side.

[felix]

Lead vaporizes minutely upon being hit with a 2500 F gas. That vaporization collects in/on the gun after a few shots when offered a chance of gas cutting. ... felix

[DPD]

44MAN,
Talk about a serious power factor! I don't know what those slugs weigh, but I
would guess there is alot of inertia to overcome on ignition. I'm betting it kicks like
a mule too. With that much resistance and under heavy expanding gas pressure,
I would guess that even a hard alloy will bump up big time.
Dam impressive shooting for a senior (just joking!) any of that done off hand?
What is the thickness of the steel rail? I'm sure it's mild steel, AR250 or 500 would
resist any penetration from a lead slug.
Just as a side, during WWII there were experiments done in the stock yards to
test the effectiveness of heavy slow bullets vs high velocity light bullets on cattle.
The heavy slow slugs won out in the quick kill department.

Don

[Cloudpeak]

[QUOTE=Dan H;117643]I cast a bunch of Lee TL452-200-SWC. Used straight clean WW lead.
They all calibrate to 454 but sqeeze down to 452 with moderate finger pressure on caliper jaws.
I loaded one in an empty case and crimped as I normally do with other boolits, and it chambered easily.

Should I load and shoot the rest? Resize? or throw back in the pot and get another mold?

Thanks for the input.

Dan H

I've cast quite a few of the same bullet. I've never measured the bullets from each cavity but I know that, when sizing with the Lee push through die, there are some oversize bullets that take quite a bit more force to get through the die than others. This is why I prefer to size all bullets. I think there is a lot to be said for shooting the exact same bullet diameter from both a safety and accuracy point of view.

Cloudpeak

[44man]

DPD, I shot from sandbags and use a red dot. The boolit only weighs 317 gr's with 31 gr's of 4759 behind it. Velocity is 1535 FPS and recoil is not bad at all.
The steel is a frame from work they were throwing out. It is 1/8" thick tubing. There is a huge bulge on the other side. I have shot this boolit through a one foot diameter tree. Just goes to show you don't have to push the limits to get punch!

[DPD]

Cloudpeak,
Provided those boolits are from the same alloy, and variation in diameter is due
to a multicavity mold, I think you would be surprised at the accuracy you can obtain from lubed unsized boolits. I used to segregate the castings from each cavity and meticulously weigh them for uniformity. I'd go out to the range and shoot groups knowing I had done everything to keep the boolits uniform.
As I got older and lazier, I gave up on segregating by cavity- just visually inspect
for uniformity and disregard what cavity they came from. With the best loads, you
would be hard pressed to tell the difference in group size when firing unsized
lubed pb's. Try it, I bet you'll be surprised.
Don

[Cloudpeak]

Cloudpeak,
Provided those boolits are from the same alloy, and variation in diameter is due
to a multicavity mold, I think you would be surprised at the accuracy you can obtain from lubed unsized boolits. I used to segregate the castings from each cavity and meticulously weigh them for uniformity. I'd go out to the range and shoot groups knowing I had done everything to keep the boolits uniform.
As I got older and lazier, I gave up on segregating by cavity- just visually inspect
for uniformity and disregard what cavity they came from. With the best loads, you
would be hard pressed to tell the difference in group size when firing unsized
lubed pb's. Try it, I bet you'll be surprised. Don

I hear you on the lazy part. I really don't want to take time to sort out which cavity is giving me larger bullets and bother segragating them. But, the extreme force required to size some of the bullets makes me want to size all of them for uniformity to forstall any possiblity of increased pressure due to the larger diameter.

I'm getting a different Lee 6 cavity SWC 45 bullet mold based on the H&G 68 design and might take time out to measure the different cavities. It the new mold drops more uniform diameter bullets, I may give it a go to just shoot the bullets un-sized.

BTW, I'm just using rendered wheel weights for reduced loads. Nothing else added. Besides having some bullets that are much harder to push through the Lee sizing die, I have some that go through with no effort all.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[DPD]

44MAN,
Recoil , like most things in life is relative (65 used to sound OLD !). A
317gr slug at 1535 fps from a handgun is stout by my standards, but it looks like
you have the SSA frame configuration which is a plus as far as I'm concerned for
absorbing the equal and opposite reaction thing.
Do you find unburned granules of SR 4759 in the bore after a session of target
shooting? I used to. Maybe they were skeletons of burned granules. Not that it
seemed to affect accuracy, just that it was one powder that seemed to do that
consistently.
Don

[44man]

The powder burns very clean for me. My barrel is 10". Slower powder like 3031 leaves a lot in the bore and case though. I use good case tension too. So far, no powder has shot as good as 4759.
I have tried heavier boolits but they are not as accurate. Seems as if around 300 gr's is best for the twist with the velocity I get. A heavier boolit needs a little more powder. Using a heavy boolit and load would turn this cannon into a wrist breaker real fast. It has way less recoil then my .475 with my load and is pleasant to shoot. I just can't make it as accurate with anything else.