264 Win Mag, 140 CL= Elk

[swheeler]

Thought I would post this here as not a cast bullet kill. After taking 2 antelope with the 264 mag and Remington cor/lok bullets @ about 3000 fps I decided to do a little more load development with surplus powders in preperation for general season. I found that I push the 140 grs to 3246 fps with WC 872 with sticky extraction, back it off a full grain (3196fps) w 1.25 inch groups, should work for hunting.
Nov 2 nd rolled around, day off, so up at 5 am headed to the Big Belt Mountains, about a 30 mile drive. My oldest brother was along to drop me off at point A and pick me up at Point B. This year I had drawn a anterless permit, so it was going to be a slickhead. Wasn't too long and I had spotted a couple elk, next mountain over and bedded right on top, in the open. Studied the terrain for a minute, checked the wind, and 45 minutes later I was where I wanted to be. I had a round chambered in the Winchester 264 Mag, 140 RP CL and a full dose of WC 872, as soon as I stepped into the open I saw a calf up, one more step and a cow looking right at me chewing her cud- thru the eye would be showing off, so drove one into her neck right under her chin- her hed dropped instantly, legs went stiff and quivered. A nice bull6x6, a spike, and 10-12 cows and calves got up and left in a hurry. I chambered another round and calmly approched counting my steps, 105- 90-100 yds- tag filled. I grabbed her ear and buried the 119 Buck to the bone, her heart pumped the blood out in large, hard squirts for a few seconds, then everything was silent. I validated my tag, gutted her and headed to point B for pickup.
Would a cast boolit kill her? Hell yes! I just didn't have one with me, or a load worked up.
But the steaks are just as delicious, even if I used a heathen bullet!
Scot

[9.3X62AL]

Nicely done, sir.

In my 6.5 x 55, WC-860 at 100% density (55.0 grains) gives 2475 FPS to 140 grainers. Not quite mil-spec velocity, but pretty close.

[swheeler]

Al, I have no doubt that a 140 grainer , even at that modest speed would have a very similar effect. I've always been a firm believer that it is not the gun, but the guy behind it. That 6x6 that hangs on my wall was taken with one 7mm ,139 grain bullet at 2600+ fps from a 7x57, worked just fine.
Scot

[swheeler]

If this cor-lok bullet would have hit bone other than a neck vertabrae the end result would likely have been trailing a wounded elk. The bullet exploded on impact with bone, in this case giving a spectacular one shot kill, because it devastated the spinal cord, but on the front shoulder it would most likely not have penetrated deeply enough for a clean kill. I'm sure the bullet would hold together much better in a cartridge that doesn't reach this much velocity, these fragments were recovered from neck meat, the largest is the base of the bullet with all it's core missing-18.7 grains, next largest is a splinter of jacket at 6.5 grs, the rest found were just "dust" mixed with powdered bone.
Bullet failure at it's best. Looks like a premium bullet, Nosler part or Barnes X is called for if this is to be used on elk.

[9.3X62AL]

No complaints on the 140 grain Partition in my 6.5 x 55 on the deer I got this year. Entry wound was caliber-size, came out the other side about 7/8" and continued flying. Velocity runs about 2675-2700 FPS with 45.0 x IMR-4831. Distance was ~60 yards. With good bullets, I would try a high-percentage shot on an elk with this load. My only real complaint is the price of those NosParts.

[Bullshop]

deputy al
I once shot a medium size bull elk with that same bullet. It was launched from a Newton rifle in 256 Newton. The load had been clocked at 2900 fps at the start. I jumped the bull from a bed and it ran straight away in the timber. I leaned on a tree and got him in the scope and waited, there was plenty of time. I did not trust the small cal for the rear end shot so waited for him to turn. At about 70 yards he turnud slightly and as soon as I saw some yellow flank I planted one of those little Noslers right in it.
The bullet raked accross the first couple ribbs breaking them then ranged on through the paunch, lungs and came to rest about half way up the neck on the opposite.
The bull dropped at the shot, then just for a second struggled to his front feet. I was just about to squeze of another shot when he collapsed for good. I left with a far greater respect for the little gun than I had before after seeing the way it dropped that bull and penitrated about 4 feet of elk.
BIC/BS

[swheeler]

Al; Nosler partitions are kinda spendy, but that wouldn't really make a difference for a hunting rifle. I have used them in 25,7mm and 30 cal, and X bullets in 25 and 30 cal, good performing bullets, still use the 7mm 175 grainer part.. The remington cor-locs are not the only bullets that I have recovered in pieces over the years, all definately bullet failures, but not one head of lost game- lucky I guess. I've had 180 & 150 Hornady 30 cal come apart, 140 Sierra pro hunters in 270 and 130 Win PP in 270 only penetrate 6 inches of elk, took a second shot to seal the deal. I have also had the old Winchester Silver Tips(aluminum nose cap) penetrate an elk from brisket to just under the hide on a ham when fired at 3080 fps- AND THESE BULLETS WEREN"T SUPPOSED TO BE ANY GOOD, people claimed they came apart, I believe they have been used to take 8 head of elk by me, always a large wound channel upfront and then lots of 2-3 dia penetration. It saddened me when they quit selling them as components.

[Larry Gibson]

Guess I have to fess up to a case of bullet failure too! Last Monday the 6th at 0700 I was still hunting down Sterling Gulch in NE Oregon (Chesnimus Unti). I had a Husky M98 action with a 24" '06 barrel on it. Load was 60 gr H4831SC in WW cases with Hornady 190 SPBT sitting on top. Velocity is right at 2750 fps. I jumped a spike bull out of his bed about halfway up the side at maybe 60 yards max. Saw the horns as he stood up and stepped behind trees. I side stepped about 10 feet to get a clear shot and when he step out from behind the trees he had about 3 steps for a clear shot. I put the Zeiss crosshars on the shoulder and pressed the trigger. After impact the bull went another 3 feet, straight down. I hung 242 lbs of meat at the meat processers. The bull probably took 2700 fps of that bullet a little high on the shoulder smashing throught the junction of the neck and spine, throught the off side shoulder and coming to rest under the hide on the far side. The bullet was perfectly mushroomed past the interlok. I put the bullet in my pocket and somewhere between packing the elk out, hunting with my partner for his elk (he got another spike on friday), packing that one out, changing pants (yes, I do that sometimes), breaking camp and driving home the damn core seperated from the jacket! Core-jacket seperation right there in my pants pocket!!! Talk about bullet "failure"! Think I should call Hornady and complain?

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

The guy who has never seen a bullet failure is the guy who hasn't hunted enough years, or maybe isn't smart enough to know what he is seeing! If it mushroomed, kept it's jacket on and penetrated enough to do the job, it didn't fail- no matter what it did in your pants.

[obssd1958]

A week and a half ago, one of the guys I work with, and I, went out for a day to see if we could find a couple of nice mule deer bucks. I took my 30-06 and Remington 165gr. core-lokts figuring that what I needed for this hunt was accuracy - they consistently group in the 1/2 to 3/4 inch range. That decision was made because of the open terrain and not taking a shot that I wasn't comfortable with. Saw half a dozen deer, but nothing we wanted to shoot. About 11 AM, he spotted a bear loping over a ridge about half a mile away (very open - steep - country!). We watched as it bedded down just below a big patch of brush. I had a bear tag, so the sneak was on! We made it to within 160 yards, according to my range finder, and then waited for about an hour for the bear to finish his nap. I was laying on the ground with my rifle on top of my pack. When the bear woke up, he sat up and looked back over his shoulder - in our direction. I had the crosshairs lined up right between his shoulder blades and touched the trigger. I knew when the shot went off, that it was a good one. The bear sat straight up and then turned into a big ball of jello, rolling down the hill about 50 feet.
Then he got back to his feet. I put a second round right behind the shoulder. It flipped him around to where he slid down the hill another 20 feet or so with all 4 legs stretched out behind him. Then he got his feet back under him and started running towards the brush in the gully. I missed with a hasty third shot, then settled down and sent the 4th shot to center of mass. This one flattened him to the ground, with his legs splayed out. But no sooner did he hit the ground, than he was rolling around in a circle in the grass. After 2 complete circles, he lunged into the brush and kept going down the canyon. We saw him in the open, briefly, about 3/4 of a mile down the canyon, in a loping run like nothing was wrong...

Blood trail ran out at about the same place as we had last seen him. We spent all of the rest of that day and all of the next (I called my boss at home and told him I wouldn't be in), but never found the bear. I spent the majority of the second day on my hands and knees, crawling into literally every patch of brush in that canyon. Not knowing me, you can't begin to know how devastated I am about this. I never take killing an animal lightly, and losing one -.....................

Anyway, the gun and load still check out dead on. Evidently, my choice of shot placement on the first shot was wrong. I'm still a little bit in shock that the bear wasn't dead right there, but will never really know why. I believe that the bullet probably went straight through, without hitting anything solid, and therefor - not expanding. The other 2 shots that hit it probably didn't put it down due to the big adrenaline surge that it got after the first one - I don't know. I do know that I won't shoot the core-lokts again.

Bullet failure???

maybe

[swheeler]

OBSSD; If your shots landed where you described I would say bullet failure could indeed be a factor. I have shot lots of game with cor-lok bullets over the years and am not impressed with them, especially if launched from something that pushes the velocity envelope. In this instance I had just got the rifle and dies a week before antelope hunting begun, I had the CL bullets left over from 6.5 Swede experiments, and being frugal decided to use them in the 264 mag. Performance on antelope was fine, full penetration, and on my doe-fawn tag I actually hit a little far forward, clipping onside shoulder blade and total destoying the offside shoulder. My experience with them at more moderate velocity has been better, but not entirely satisfactory, either they penetrate like a FMJ or explode like a varmint bullet. As far as Larry's diagnosis, with the core and jacket seperating after the fact, on the 190 Hornady @ 2700 fps, NOW I do have concerns on that same bullet traveling 500 fps faster- can you say hand granade! Ultra-high-velocity+ premium bullet= GOOD IDEA. Just reporting facts as I find them, not trying to be cute or witty- I won't be calling R_P, but I won't be shooting their bullets as soon as the few hundred I have left are used up.
S Wheeler

[waksupi]

In years past, I have experienced some of the same bullet failures as mentioned. One recurring thing comes to me, thinking back. I've shot maybe 40 or so head of game with cast bullets. And not one of these kills had any type of failure. I believe I have said it before, but I will repeat, cast bullets are the premium hunting bullet. Commercial bullet makers, are trying to make something that will work as well as the old cast bullet, and let the common nimrod not have to know a lot about his firearm to shoot them.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta interesting info here. FWIW, I would be pretty upset under OB58's circumstances, too. Sorry to hear this, sir.

I don't have the depth of experience shooting game animals that many guys here have. What I have gathered from my shallow first-hand work AND from listening to the experiences of others is this--at 30-30 velocity levels, the cup-and-core bullet types can do all right on game. Some elements of the lower impact velocities and these simpler j-words combine to produce reliable performance on deer with the 30-30 and on larger species with the 33 WCF and 348 Winchester. Once you get into the 30-06 level of starting velocities--2700 FPS and above--bullet performance becomes seemingly less predictable due to increased impact velocities--and I think a Nosler Partition or similar bullet is called for.

For deer, I would balk at using a cast boolit in 30-30. 35 Remington would get a "YES" answer, though. I spent almost half of deer season hunting with castings in the 9.3 x 62, hoping to fill that second tag with real boolits. I had also used the same combo on a couple early-season hunt days prior to connecting with the Swede. I would agree with Waksupi's assertion that cast boolits ARE THE PREMIUM BOOLITS, providing that sufficient caliber, meplat, and weight are present. Their only restriction after those prerequisites are met is that of ranging ability within the limits of operator skill.

[swheeler]

That Barnes X bullet is a monolithic solid, just like a cast boolit, except it can be pushed to 3200 fps from a 6.5- eight inch twist. I hunt with cast too, but they are not capable of the velocity potential of a lot of the cartridges I use, I like to try EVERTHING I can, different bullets, boolits, powders, calibers- life is an experiment in hunting arms-ammo and techniques.

[Larry Gibson]

My post was made "tonue in cheek". I really don't consider the Hornady to have "failed" in any way. It went through an aweful lot of bone and did stay together in the elk. The elk was dead before he ht he ground. What part of "failure" is that? I have killed numerous elk, caribou, a nice Bg Horn sheep and deer ith Hornady 180s and the 190s out of an '06. I have yet to experience anything close to what I would define as "bullet failure". When still hunting the bottoms of the large draws and gulches in that area you are in pretty thick timeber with ranges perfect for cast bullets. But alas the elk don't stay in the thick stuff (they were in fact originally a plains aninimal) and shots can be very long for jacketed bullets let alone cast bullets. The spike my friend got was after a 45 minute, 3+ mile run accoss the open country to intercept the 100+ animal herd. Even then the shot was 325 yards (range finder). I thought almost instantly after shooting my elk tha it would have been a perfect cast bullet shot for the M91 Mauser now in .35 Rem or the Siamese Mauser in .450-400-70 (45-70). Of course several other cast bullet hunting loads I use would have been good also.

As to cast bullets being "premium" bullets I don't know. I have recovered cast bullets from larger animals with 50+% of the bullet gone. This is from numerous alloys and nose styles. I never considered any of them to have "failed" as I recovered them from the dead animal. Guess I just disagree that core/jacket seperation means "failure". I judge bullet performance on how well the bullet kills given the placement of the shot. No bullet from a normal hunting rifle is a sure thing every time.

Many times bullets are pushed too fast for thier design parameters. Using bullets that were designed for standard cartridges in magnums is probably the biggest mistake and cause of "bullet failure". The gentleman shooting the bear may or may not have had bullet failure with the Core-Loks. I have seen a lot of game killed over the years with that bullet. However, a bear (don't think he said what kind of bear or estimated size) can soak up a lot of lead. I have seen a lot of shots that were thought to be well placed that weren't (done a few myself) especially in animals we don't shoot that often and perhaps are not aware of what is the proper palace to put the bullet. I have been in on the killing of several black bears and learned that for a relative quick kill the vital area is up between the shoulders. Obssd1958 was using classic "deer" shot placement, not really that good on bears. No stones being thrown here just discussing the facts. I lost a deer once to poor shot placement and know his pain as a hunter. Those things do happen. Guess what I'm saying is sometimes we are too quick to blame the inanimate object instead of who is staring back in the mirror.

To Obssd1958 I would say that I do not think a "premium" bullet would have made any difference given the shot placement you describe. I commend you on your efforts to follow up and find the bear. Unfortunate things like this do happen. I went from 150-165 gr bullets in the '06 to the 180-200 gr bullets for big game becuase they kill better. I also swithed from the "behind the shoulder" shot to knowing where the heart area is on big game animals and putting my bullet there regardless of the angle (Idon't do Texas Heart shots). You gave it your best effort, thanks for the telling.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

no holes inside-nice