Here is the write-up "My homemade black powder" [Archive]

atom73

01-26-2011, 10:01 PM

I made my powder tonight and took pictures along the way. First, let me say that along with other processes discussed on this site, making your own black powder has its own set of risks and hazards all of which should be well understood and mitigated should you decide to do it. Also, make sure that if you decide to do it, you are in compliance with any laws that may apply. Lastly, I have read all the posts on this thread about the dangers of this process and why we shouldnt be doing it, I especially am entertained by those that counsel against it because of how dangerous it is....so is melting lead. If you dont think this should be done then dont do it. I am posting this because I think its neat, it makes me feel a little connection with those that have gone before me and paved the way for our 'hobby' (which was their necessity), and I like to know how things worked. If you are wondering if I am qualified to do this, dont worry about it, I am an adult and can take care of myself. I wont post about how qualified I am.
Last but not least, I have fired this powder in my .50 cal TC black diamond with great results, next year I intend to kill a deer with powder I made and a bullet I cast.

Ingredients:
The ratio is 15:3:2 Of KNO3, Charcoal, and Sulfur respectively. I make batches using (in grams) 150g KNO3, 30g charcoal, and 20g sulfur. You must make your own charcoal out of willow, grass, or another very soft wood or it wont work well. I make my own out of willow, grind the charcoal in a hand crank old fashioned meat grinder, then screen it to sift out the chunks, and use only the fine product for the process. To learn how to make your own charcoal, google it.
You will also need some 90+% isopropyl alcohol, chilled in the freezer (i put it in the night before), 750ml is fine, and I use the whole bottle.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-1.jpg

I buy my other ingredients on line from a pyrotechnic supply co, get the finest grade you can.

Process:
1. Measure your amounts and screen/sift the charcoal and sulfur together to keep it fluffy.
2. Bring about three cups of water to boil on stove, stir in 150g KNO3. Keep stirring and make sure all the KNO3 is dissolved, dont overwater the mix as it will be harder to reprecipitate later. Turn off heat.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-2.jpg

3. Slowly sift in the charcoal and sulfur mix. It will float on top of the water so wisk it in or stir vigorously until you have a grayish sludge.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-5.jpg

4. Once the sludge is fully mixed and wetted, remove it from the stove and pour in the chilled alcohol while stirring.

5. Keep stirring until the sludge is cool. I actually will put the pan in an ice bath to bring the temp down to ice water temp. What this does is causes the KNO3 to precipitate out of solution onto the charcoal and sulfur particles allowing for intimate oxidizer/fuel apposition. You will see the previously watery mix begin to thicken as the precipitation occurs.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-11.jpg

6. Once you are confident all the KNO3 has precipitated out (its been ice cold for about 5-10 min), you can begin to carefully pour it through a coffee filter supprted by a screen strainer.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-13.jpg

7. Let the liquid filter out, it takes a while and I usually have to do two filters worth as they fill up quick. I also scoop and pour into the filter to reduce mess.

8. After most of the liquid exits via gravity, bunch up the filter, wrap another filter around it and begin to slowly squeeze out excess liquid until you have a compacted ball of powder. This you can set on a wad of paper towels until ready for use.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-14.jpg

9. It is necessary to get as much liquid out as you can prior to corning, if excess remains it will mud up when pushed through a mesh and not grain up properly. Once you have a nice ball, grate it through a screen onto a large pan lined with paper for drying. Allow this to dry over night, undisturbed, away from flame, where a kitty cat wont find it!!!!

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-16.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-17.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-19.jpg

Meet your new black powder. I store it in cleaned out tupperware or used powder cans that seal well. I have used some in my .50 cal that was a year old successfully. You can put a packet of rice in to absorb moisture and dont store too much in one container. Test it, play with it, have fun. Remember, you are responsible for your own actions not me (or anyone else for that matter). I post this only in the spirit of sharing something that I made that I found to be quite enjoyable so do your homework and be safe.
Again, for those that have poo poo'd making black powder, dont do it then. BTW, the batch I just made cost me about 50 cents.
Mike:p

markinalpine

01-27-2011, 02:59 PM

I was reading an article at another board in the past, and I've always wondered if you could use graphite, which I believe is pure carbon, insted of charcoal. I remember using graphite to lubricate door locks in the past. It came in a can in a fine powder form, was applied to the internal lock mechanism with a small brush, and was REALLY messy.

geargnasher

01-27-2011, 03:56 PM

Very nice overview of the process, thanks for sharing.

Gear

firefly1957

01-27-2011, 05:09 PM

mold maker

01-27-2011, 05:14 PM

Thanks Mike, that's exactly what we needed. Your explanation and recipe should keep some of the rest of us from making mistakes with the process.
I always felt that if our forefathers did it, we could to. After all they would have gone hungry and the next generation might never have been born. That means NO US.
IT AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE, just a process that produces a needed product, with common kitchen tools and common sense.
If ya have any doubts in your ability, buy yours ready made at the store.

frankenfab

01-27-2011, 08:27 PM

Thanks for posting this. I don't plan on trying it at the moment, but it is very interesting.

Great tutorial!

diehard

01-27-2011, 08:49 PM

Kudos! I think this tutorial is both useful and .... cool! Well done.

markinalpine

01-27-2011, 09:53 PM

Here's that article I mentioned above:
Home Gunsmith Forums, "Homemade black powder, once again", by Swede.
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=101;t=20596

It's 29 pages long, 286 comments.

Mark :coffeecom

garbear

01-27-2011, 10:05 PM

how much did that batch make?
Garbear

LatheRunner

01-27-2011, 10:15 PM

Atom73=Thanks for posting this process. I may have to try this soon. looks pretty easy. Iam almost out of blackpowder. LatheRunner

rockrat

01-31-2011, 11:17 AM

200 grams of ingredients. If end result is the same weight, then a little less than 1/2 lb

looseprojectile

01-31-2011, 05:41 PM

Have you thought about what firefly1957 has said about throwing away the liquid and with it the ingredients in souloution.
I would think that you would not end up with the same ratio of components as you started with. Most of what I have read tell about pressing the slurry to remove the liquid. Is this of any concern? Is the loss of ingredients this way compensated for by the amount you start with? Must be huh?
I just might make some just cause it is cheap and I am curious and I am an inveterate tinkerer.
Who knows what you may have started? Thanks for making the process simple for us.

Life is good

onondaga

01-31-2011, 05:53 PM

Thanks for posting. You have a nice kitchen friendly method! I mixed 80:13:7, but have been away from doing it for a while. I used the same mix for propellant in damp rammed model rocket engines and fireworks. I always purchased ball milled saltpeter and sulfur and airfloat grade charcoal. I used a small wooden tumbler and glass balls for mixing in an "out building" and have posted about that. I used to make fireworks and handled some nasty stuff to make colored stars for bursting shells and rockets.

I first started making BP at age 8 to feed a flintlock rifle.

I now have nasty asthma attacks from any slight exposure to sulfur or it's smoke, so I am out of that fun and miss it. I have to use the no sulfur substitutes with my smoke-poles. Well, It works, but I miss the real stuff.

Still have all my fingers and eyes. Only had one small incident as a boy after a very stupid science teacher told me that pool chlorine makes a wonderful oxidizer instead of saltpeter. FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAASH! But I was dressed for it. You shouldn't tell boys things like that. My brother still calls me Flash.

Gary

Hickory

01-31-2011, 06:07 PM

I think we have a sticky here.

Big brass ones

03-01-2011, 11:43 PM

I use to make fireworks as a younger man and often made black powder for sparklers, fountains, ect. Once I bought 10 lbs of powdered graphite for and tried to make black powder with it. It was the nicest looking stuff, but burned so slowly I could find no use for it. I've still got some of that graphite, which I've used in bullet lubes with limited success (far too messy).

xfoxofshogo

06-23-2011, 01:02 PM

i make bp and never have to boil on stove but i do mix it with alcohol and let it dry woks grate

my stuff shoot just like off the shelf pyrodex RS

i will have to make some like you did and see if it make it beter

canyon-ghost

06-23-2011, 08:32 PM

Clarification: KNO3? What is it?

Ron

cavalrymedic

06-23-2011, 09:46 PM

KNO3 is saltpeter. or saltpetre for our British cousins.

felix

06-23-2011, 10:21 PM

Potassium Nitrate. There several grades of it because of it usefulness. You want a chemical grade, rather than an agriculture grade. You do NOT need reagent grade. 99 percent should be much better than good enough. ... felix

Marlin Junky

06-24-2011, 03:21 PM

KNO3 could become more difficult to obtain in the future since it is primarily made by reacting NH4NO3 (Ammonium Nitrate) with either KOH or KCl... so, stock up while you can. I don't think Ammonium Nitrate can be purchased in CA anymore.

Two questions:

1) Why not substitute Denatured Alcohol for the 91% isopropyl?

2) How would one make cartridge grade BP?

MJ

P.S. BTW, this procedure looks pretty safe to me. It's only explosive after it's dry, right? KNO3 is non-flammable.

omgb

06-25-2011, 12:13 PM

Interesting but I can't believe I can cook in my kitchen using my basic controls, anything near as good as Swiss 1.5. So, I'll file this away as interesting but not practical.

no34570

06-25-2011, 06:39 PM

blueeyephil

06-25-2011, 07:55 PM

Where I live the confederates made powder on the bluffs by the White and Buffalo rivers. There are lots of caves where they got the saltpeter. And of course there are black willows all along the gravel bars. They used huge cast iron kettles at least 3 feet across. The Union army would raid the powder works and roll the kettles off of the bluffs and break them. I've seen a couple of them with pieces broken out of them. I may just have to try making me some. We've got lots of Willows along the creek. I've been wanting to make some charcoal anyway.

I think they made the saltpeter out of bat guano from the caves. Does anyone know if that is correct? I know there are several caves around that are called Saltpeter cave.

As far as the alcohol, I'm sure they made their own from corn. ;)

omgb

06-25-2011, 09:24 PM

Some times they used guano, other times they had women collect their urine and spread it over stable manure. The KNO3 precipitates out as a white fuzz on the straw.

L1A1Rocker

06-25-2011, 09:37 PM

Excellent post, great pics. Thank you very much for the information

Three44s

06-26-2011, 12:36 AM

Atom73,

Very well done!!!

Thank you allowing us to see your process!

Three 44s

Oreo

07-26-2011, 10:13 PM

KNO3 can be purchased at home improvement stores as "tree stump remover". Not sure what grade it is but I've been told its 99%. Its used as fish-safe fertilizer for aquatic gardening, among other things off-label.

I'd also bet the activated carbon granules available in pet stores for aquarium filters would be the most excellent charcoal you're likely to find.

ETA: Oh, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this already... DON'T THROW AWAY THE OLD WATER! It does in fact still contain just less then the saturation level of KNO3. It can be reused over & over to conserve the KNO3. Alternatively, the water can be left out on a tray to evaporate & 100% of the remaining KNO3 can then be recovered in dry form. However, IMO, KNO3 is currently cheap enough to not be worth the hassle.

XWrench3

07-27-2011, 07:43 AM

How would one make cartridge grade BP?

you will have to excuse my ignorance, but i have never seen black powder labeled as "cartridge grade". 1-4fg, but not cartridge. is there such a thing, and what is the difference?

also, atom73, THANKS for sharing your process. i have been thinking about just this project. but i think you need to recalculate your expenses. in my neck of the woods, just the bottle of alcohol is $1.97. and you need to add shipping costs into the cost of chemicals as well. i am very certain that the net cost is still way cheaper than buying real B.P. the last pound i bought was $25.00, and i spent close to $10.00 in gas trying to find it.

roaddog1m

08-15-2011, 12:32 PM

I have been making BP for about 11 months now. I use a little different method but I get a very good end result. As far as cartridge grade, I use mine in my 45-70 Rolling Block. 65gr under a 500gr cast boolit gets me a bit over 1100fps. Very consistent velocities shot to shot. Like any other BP, compress the hell out of it. I've also used it in my .44 cap/ball and was getting around 830fps out of that. Great tutorial though. I've though about doing the same.

Tom

DukeInFlorida

08-22-2011, 07:04 AM

Don't confuse Tree Stump Remover with Root Killer.

Root killer is a different chemical.

I did a post on the subject of electroplating copper:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/86026-Copper-Plating-Lead-Bullets?

You need saltpeter (Potassium Nitrate, it's chemical name is KNO3) for the GP.
This is the product to look for at the hardware stores:
http://www.spectracide.com/~/media/Spectracide/Images/Product%20Images/Misc/071121564207.ashx?w=240&h=275&bc=transparent&as=1&thn=1

Here's the MSDS for the stump remover:
http://www.spectracide.com/~/media/Spectracide/Files/MSDS/Other/SpectracideStumpRemover_MSDS_DEC0308.ashx

Here in the states, you can get it at all of the big box stores, including Walmart, Lowes, and Home Depot.

KNO3 can be purchased at home improvement stores as "tree stump remover". Not sure what grade it is but I've been told its 99%. Its used as fish-safe fertilizer for aquatic gardening, among other things off-label.

I'd also bet the activated carbon granules available in pet stores for aquarium filters would be the most excellent charcoal you're likely to find.

ETA: Oh, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this already... DON'T THROW AWAY THE OLD WATER! It does in fact still contain just less then the saturation level of KNO3. It can be reused over & over to conserve the KNO3. Alternatively, the water can be left out on a tray to evaporate & 100% of the remaining KNO3 can then be recovered in dry form. However, IMO, KNO3 is currently cheap enough to not be worth the hassle.

firefly1957

08-25-2011, 09:36 AM

I have found that some stump removers have a yellow color I am not sure what it is but it ruins the powders burning rate. I do not use the powder I make in firearms but have mixed it with powdered Habinero peppers to stop animals from digging under out buildings. The smoke is set off in their hole then fill in they tend not to dig it back out again.

Suo Gan

08-27-2011, 08:58 AM

Wow
I gotta hand it to you,that is awesome,here in Australia,we pay over $40-$50 per pound for the black stuff.
I'd love to do it,but I'd probably blow myself up and probably would not be able to obtain the sulphur.

It is a common soil amendment, check out a fertilizer dealer or ask a farmer. We can buy it by the truck load here.

BOOM BOOM

10-16-2011, 10:50 PM

HI,
I enjoined your post. Thank you.
How to posts like these may become very valuable in the future.:Fire::Fire:

bearcove

10-29-2011, 07:35 PM

I made a list of sources from the thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=131827

ghh3rd

11-26-2011, 01:43 AM

Saltpeter

My dad was in the military in the '40s and said that they used to mix it with the salt to keep a certain part of their anatomy from being able to salute :-)

He said that in the mess hall he often heard someone saying "please pass the salt, Peter..."

Jay561

12-20-2011, 09:58 PM

Amazing, really enjoyed this.

sdalcher

12-24-2011, 10:03 AM

Great read! Thanks for taking the time to put this out there for us all to enjoy.

BombDoc

02-04-2012, 05:24 PM

The subject of which charcoal is best for gunpowder is something that was researched heavily in the 19th Cent. Work done at the Royal Gunpowder Mills at Waltham Abbey, Essex concluded that the charcoal from the following plants was the best for making ballistic gunpowder (as distinct from blasting powder):

Williow - Salix Alba
Alder - Alnus Glutinosa
Black Dogwood - Rhamnus Frangula - considered the best!

Cordwood not less than 1" and not more than 4" was used. The bark was removed and the material checked for cleanliness. It was cut in the spring so as to ease the removal of the bark, and then stacked to dry under cover.

The bundles of cordwood were then loaded into metal cylinders which fitted into retorts where the wood was heated to convert it into charcoal at around 500F for about 3 hours. The hot coals were then dumped into sealed canisters where they stayed for about 6 hours until cool.

Charcoal is not the same a graphite. The fiberous wood structure is transformed into a honeycomb like carbon lattice with an extremely large surface area. Even when ground down, charcoal retains this lrge surface area. The carbon structure is molecules thick in most places. This is what makes activated charcoal such a good adsorber of gas.

Wood charcoal also retains a significant quantity of tar and pitch which is what get removed when you "activate" it with steam. Removing the tar reduces the flammability of the charcoal, so activated charcoal is not a good substitute for powder making..

British powder making did not use alchohol. A "green charge" of saltpeter, charcoal and sulpher was placed in a cast iron edge runner mill and dampened with plain water (2-3%). The charge was milled for 3 hours for cannon powder or 5 hours for rifle powder.

After this the charge was put in a hydraulic press between copper plates to increase the density. The resultant cake was broken up by spiked bronze rollers and seived to separate out different grades. The grains were then tumbled in heated drums to glaze them. Occasionally graphite was added at this stage.

The powder was then dried in a stove to reduce the moisture to below 1%.

If you are ever visiting the UK, Waltham Abbey is worth a visit. It is north east of London in Essex.

I happen to live in a village which had the last working, dedicated powder mill in UK. It closed in 1952. With gunpowder now retailing at over £40.00 a kg, I wish it was still running!

firefly1957

02-04-2012, 06:07 PM

I recently read that cherry wood is commonly used now as it is consistent and available.

Shooter6br

02-04-2012, 06:30 PM

nice "Kodachrome" quote. very true! Rick

firefly1957

02-05-2012, 08:10 AM

I was wondering if anyone would spot it, I used to work with a crazy guy named Julio every time he would come near me I would say "hey Julio just what were you and Paul doing in the school yard" he always left which was a good thing.

Freightman

02-13-2012, 02:05 PM

Well I did it! I made some BP as the instructions except I took the charcoal out of my wood burning stove when I cleaned it out. It has been bad since I finished the powder so couldn't get to the range to test to see if it was going to fire in my 45/70. It cleared a little but not much so I took and put 10gr of BP in a case and put two 3/8 vegie wads down on top of them and went to the back yard and fire it. It fired and even hit the fence with the wadds so it goes off fine. Will try to test with a load next week or so but I am happy and it cost very little. Ordered three # of KNO3 and three # of Sulfur for $15 including shipping $1.30 for rubbing alcohol and the charcoal was free and there is enough to make 9.5# + BP.

1Shirt

02-13-2012, 04:11 PM

Problem is Firefly most of the writing on the wall today is Gang related graffete.
1Shirt!

hatcreek

02-24-2012, 11:13 PM

I've been making black powder for years, my recipe is 75grams kno3, 15 grams willow charcoal, and 10 grams sulfur, I ball mill all three for 4 to 6 hours, i use stale urine to make like a biscuit dough, I sift it through a screen, and let it dry for a good 24 hours, stale urine oxidizes the powder then alcohol or water, I know it sounds gross but the difference is quite noticeable.

Freightman

02-25-2012, 04:55 PM

Jeffrey

02-26-2012, 08:47 AM

Have to ask... stale urine? Just how does one make urine stale? Are we talking urine that has been allowed to sit in an open pan in the sun? Or are we talking stall urine... Like a horse stall? I have heard of making saltpeter from urine. Just asking

whelenshooter

02-27-2012, 07:03 PM

FYI
Bonide brand stump out doesn't contain potassium nitrate instead it is made of sodium pyrosulfite. It's sold as stump remover but if you get that brand no dice for bp. Spectracide's brand, as already mentioned, is potassium nitrate, the stuff you want.

LBussy

02-29-2012, 04:10 PM

Guys I'm new here and new to cast bullets, but definitely not new to BP. I make my own (for pyro) and you can definitely make better than you can buy. Don't believe me? I don't care, I'm not trying to sell you anything. :)

The wet method listed here is called the "CIA Method" as this was a method in CIA field manuals for "field expedient black powder". It's so-so and a hell of a lot of mess.

Anyway, I'm sure many of you have rock tumblers for case cleaning? Filling halfway with grinding media (lead bullets would work great) and then "loading" with enough 75:15:10 to fill in all the spaces (so not you have a "solid" half-full jar) will be a proper load. Mill overnight. Granulate in one of many ways and you have some mighty-fine BP. Here's a tutorial by my friend Ned with no milling - a LOT cleaner than that CIA method:

http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=115

He also lists some pretty good granulation and separation tips.

Good charcoal (graphite, aquarium charcoal and some other replacements listed here are no good) and VERY FINE grains are the key.

So, nice to meet you all and I'm looking forward to learning from you!

Bert2368

03-03-2012, 01:56 PM

Hi- Lee Bussy???? Bert from Hollywood Pyrotechnics here.

These guys are very good at getting chunks of Lead alloy to go where they want, when they want. I do chime in now and then when someone starts re-activating primers with match heads, using steel tools on live mixtures or some such...

daschnoz

04-16-2012, 09:45 AM

I have 2 questions:

1 - Charcoal made from oak - good, bad?

2 - Is this stuff suitable?
http://www.lowes.com/pd_188825-1321-9605060_0__?productId=3083079&Ntt=sulfur&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dsulfur&facetInfo=

Here's the MSDS sheet on the stuff:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lilly%20miller%20garden%20sulfur%20dust%20msds&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CFQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fcatalog%2Fpdf Images%2F7c%2F7c8bbfd0-bf0a-4a5f-aad1-a03906c21db8.pdf&ei=LSKMT_O6MqXc0QG18pjfCQ&usg=AFQjCNGWAqphXfTIS5uVSfvZEpypsmXXuQ&cad=rja

Thanks.

Lead Fred

04-16-2012, 10:24 AM

Thats just plain cool

Freightman

04-16-2012, 05:33 PM

I went to Harbor Freight and they had there tumblers on sale for $29.89 so I got one and cast 100 round balls and put my mix of 150g KNO3/ 30g willow charcoal/ 20g Sulfur/ and 15g Dextrin, and tumbled it for 12 hours overnight and it made excellent black powder. I added 1/2c water and 1/2 c alcohol and corned it, the grains were great and loaded great. Will get to the range later this week and chronograph some loads.

Freightman

04-16-2012, 05:44 PM

atom73

04-16-2012, 10:59 PM

Good work freightman, nice to see you are still at it!

GrizzLeeBear

04-22-2012, 10:29 AM

Has anyone made any black powder without the sulfur?

After reading this thread, I did some surfing. I have read several places that you can make it without the sulfur. From what I read, the main purpose of the sulfer is to lower the ignition temperature. Without the sulfur, it does lower the energy of the burn a little, but not much. But it also reduces the amount of smoke and sulfur smell. Of course this powder would not work well in a flintlock, but it would be ok in a percussion gun or shotgun shells where you are using modern primers.

daschnoz

05-02-2012, 09:44 PM

Here is a link for willow charcoal enough to make several 100 pounds of powder
http://www.customcharcoal.com/willow-lump-charcoal.html

Once I get the chunks smashed down to a small enough size to fit, would a pepper mill grind the charcoal to a fine enough powder to use?

Longwood

05-02-2012, 10:30 PM

Once I get the chunks smashed down to a small enough size to fit, would a pepper mill grind the charcoal to a fine enough powder to use?

A lot of people use a small hand food grinder like your Grama used.
That is what I have and it is pretty surprising how fast it did a pound of charcoal dust.
It was also pretty surprising how much charcoal it took to make one pound of dust.
Not to mention how much wood it took to make the small amount of charcoal.
All I could stuff in a popcorn tin from Walmart.

Longwood

05-02-2012, 10:34 PM

I know a watched pot never boils but I am wondering if I could make charcoal in a stainless steel stock pot with the new glass lids they all seem to come with these days.
I would like to watch the wood do it's thing.

daschnoz

05-02-2012, 10:42 PM

A lot of people use a small hand food grinder like your Grama used.
That is what I have and it is pretty surprising how fast it did a pound of charcoal dust.
It was also pretty surprising how much charcoal it took to make one pound of dust.
Not to mention how much wood it took to make the small amount of charcoal.
All I could stuff in a popcorn tin from Walmart.

Food grinder - pic (so I know what to look for)?

Longwood

05-02-2012, 11:09 PM

I finally got back to making some blackpowder.
I toasted, ground up, then milled enough charcoal to get a pound of powdered. I had some green Cottonwood and Fig so that is what I used.
I bought ten pounds of sulfur over the net for $30 delivered, and also bought a couple of pounds of stump remover at Lowe's.
I took advantage of Harbor Freights sale and purchased one of the single drum tumblers Saturday.
I got five spare belts with it so I guess they have caught on to how bad the belts are.
So yesterday, I put a half pound of KNO3 in the tumbler and filled it half full with a bunch of balls I cast from Linotype.
As I was machining some parts for 45-70 dies, I ran the mill.
Everything looked great when I opened the drum when I was done with the machine work which took about two hours.
As I was loading up my arms with everything, the lid on the drum (the one I had not put the knob back onto) pulled out of the drum as I picked it up.:groner:
Well DUH!
Use two hands whenever you pick them up.. Especially if they are half full of lead.
I salvaged some of the product and looked at it under 500 timesof magnification.
All I can say is,,, Things are looking good. If everything goes as planned, I should have a pound of black powder very soon.
I believe I can mill it pretty fast from the looks of how fine the powdered KNO3 came out.

PS,,,
How flammable is KN03?
Can I pick some up with a Dust Buster?

trooperdan

05-04-2012, 06:18 PM

KNO3 isn't flammable at all... it just makes about anything ELSE very combustable. I would surely avoid trying to vacumn it up with a dust buster!

Longwood

05-04-2012, 07:33 PM

KNO3 isn't flammable at all... it just makes about anything ELSE very combustable. I would surely avoid trying to vacumn it up with a dust buster!

Thanks
Sort of like oxygen.
Wont burn but look out if it get to a fire.
Maybe I will snort it,,,,
Snorting oxygen is good,,, right?

I got the powder milled, now I just need to finish a couple of other projects then mix and press the pucks.
I made a puck pressing mold and am modifying a hydraulic press, I made years ago, for putting on cable clevis's to press them with.
The next batch, I am going to do without making the pucks.

Being 70 sucks.
I have time and money but if I work/play for very long, my back starts hurting right away.

daschnoz

05-12-2012, 08:09 AM

Let's assume for a moment that SHTF. Alcohol is not readily available. Refrigeration for making ice is non existent.

How does this change the procedure?

Would it be enough to leave the mixture in the sun to evaporate the water?

trooperdan

05-12-2012, 11:17 AM

Longwood, I'll be 70 in September, recently retired and looking for new ways to play, making my own BP being one of them with sidelines back into amatuer rocketry and pyrotechnics. In the process of getting my Federal and state pyro shooters license, already have the C&R. Also thing of getting a CDL with haz mat endorsement so I can drive the pyro truck. Too many hobbies, too little time & money!

odfairfaxsub

05-12-2012, 12:58 PM

i might be speaking in gnorance but i believe its against the law to create your own gun powder like this.

trooperdan

05-12-2012, 02:32 PM

i might be speaking in gnorance but i believe its against the law to create your own gun powder like this.

All depends on local laws, no federal laws prohibiting manufacturer. Storage is another matter though, requires a federally approved magazine.. don't you think that we might have considers such in advance? And if you aren't positive, it is usually better not to speak.

SciFiJim

05-12-2012, 03:57 PM

All depends on local laws, no federal laws prohibiting manufacturer. Storage is another matter though, requires a federally approved magazine.. don't you think that we might have considers such in advance? And if you aren't positive, it is usually better not to speak.

Sometimes it's worthwhile to ask the question though. Someone can generally help to clear up any misunderstanding about what is legal and not legal.

daschnoz

05-23-2012, 10:18 AM

Well, I made up a batch last night. I must have screwed up - it looks like it worked. I definitely have more than 50g (sulfur + charcoal) of powder, so the KNO3 did precipitate out of solution. I ended up using a single 400mL bottle of alcohol. It was a neat experience. Total time spent was just under 3 hours. Knowing what I know now about the process, I'm sure I can get it down to a little over an hour per batch. I have yet to compute a cost per lb number, but I know it less than $25 (that's what the local Bass Pro is selling it for).

It was super humid last night, and today isn't supposed to be any better. My product is on a pan in the shed (there's no chance in hell that SWMBO will let me bring it into the house without it being in a safe container). Hopefully, it will warm up enough in there to throw off the remainder of the moisture.

I did test some this morning. My powder is still a bit damp, so it didn't want to light very easily. I took about 1 teaspoon of my stuff and mixed it with less than 1/4 teaspoon of GOEX 4F. Once the GOEX went, it took the rest of the pile with it. There is still some of my powder left unburned, but it is definitely less than what the pile started with.

What did I learn?
1 - That $8 plastic cheese grinder isn't going to last too long for grinding up charcoal.

2 - Wear a dust mask when grinding charcoal. I was blowing black snot out of my nose all evening.

3 - It takes a lot more charcoal than I imagined it would to make 30g.

4 - Sift the charcoal and sulfur before combining them to get rid of large charcoal pieces and lumps of sulfur.

5 - Don't wait for the water to drain out of the coffee filter by gravity alone. It takes too long. Wrap a couple of filters around the main one and squeeze gently.

6 - Misquotes are a pain in the butt when working under the porch light after dark.

7 - When using bug spray, make sure the nozzle is pointed in the correct direction. That crap burns your eyes.

8 - 9th century chemistry is fun.

Net_Ranger101

05-30-2012, 10:19 PM

AHhhhhhhh man

Now i have to buy a black powder rifle

good job

Steve s.

06-13-2012, 01:20 PM

I want to try this out but I have a few questions:

1) I live in California and don't have willow for charcoal. I have lots of Ponderosa Pine and Oak firewood though. Are these good substitutes?

2) Is there a good charcoal to just buy instead of making it?

3) How does the load data compare to FFg or FFFg? I'm going to try it in a .50 CVA side lock gun.

I currently cast my own round balls and REAL bullets and I think it would be really cool to shoot my buck(s) this year with my own bullet and powder.
:lovebooli

Longwood

06-13-2012, 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=Steve s.;1743198]I want to try this out but I have a few questions:

1) I live in California and don't have willow for charcoal. I have lots of Ponderosa Pine and Oak firewood though. Are these good substitutes?

If you want to gather Willow, in California, look in about any creek bed.

John in WI

06-13-2012, 08:53 PM

Hi Steve--if you can't find willow to make charcoal (or want to screw around with making it from scratch) I used to have good success with grinding up "Activated Charcoal" from any place that sells pet supplies. They use it for aquarium filters, and you can buy a pound of it for a few bucks.

The usually make activated charcoal from bamboo (a type of grass) and it grinds very well and makes a nice powder! At least that was my young-pyro experience with it.

What works great for the charcoal is an old coffee mill (I used my mom's--and she about killed me for it!). But under NO circumstances should you grind the ingredients together dry.

John in WI

06-13-2012, 08:58 PM

John in WI

06-13-2012, 09:04 PM

I forgot-- daschnoz --if there is some kind of SHTF scenario, I seem to remember the first Foxfire Book has an entire section on making black powder (and they even build a blackpowder rifle--lock, stock and barrel!).

Anyway, they described in detail leaching potassium nitrate from animal dung (the "nitrogen" in manure is mostly nitrates and nitrites), finding sulfur, and making charcoal.

If I remember there recipe right, the guy they interviewed didn't do the fancy precipitation with alcohol. Instead, he used stale urine to form a thick paste out of the ingredients and kneed them together. Then when it was kind of plastic, rub it through a window screen to size it into more or less ball shaped pieces.

Although (as a chemist) I really like how slick this preparation is. Thanks for this one.

SciFiJim

06-13-2012, 09:40 PM

1) I live in California and don't have willow for charcoal. I have lots of Ponderosa Pine and Oak firewood though. Are these good substitutes?

Depending on where you live in CA, grape vines can be used to make charcoal. Where I live the grape growers replace the vines about every 5-6 years. By then, the vines are about 6 inches thick. The growers place the vines in large piles beside the road and people pick from the pile to use in their BBQs. I remember reading somewhere that grape wood charcoal was used in the production of commercial fireworks.

FLINTNFIRE

06-14-2012, 11:10 AM

here is another source with very good prices for components

http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=72_119

Longwood

06-14-2012, 06:06 PM

here is another source with very good prices for components

http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=72_119

I liked the Black Powder making link.

http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/Pyro/BP/black_powder_101.html

PhilS

06-15-2012, 12:23 PM

Hi folks. I'm the owner of the site referenced above and have been making Black Powder for a couple of days now. (grin) I understand the safety concerns that might lead you to consider making BP with water but I want to point out a couple of things.

Of the 3 ingredients, the KNO3 is the only one that's water soluble. When you add the water to your mix, the KNO3 goes into suspension and the sulfur and charcoal just sit on the bottom of your container. When you pour the liquid out, your throwing away a large part of your oxidizer. If you doubt this, stick a finger in the liquid and taste it. That salty taste comes from the nitrate. If you use stale urine, you might want to skip this and just take my word for it.

If you simply allow the water to evaporate, you'll see that the KNO3 has crystallized and you no longer have a homogenous mix. Your sulfur and charcoal will be pretty well mixed but the KNO3 will be sitting on top. The only solution is to figure out a way to remix the components and thus you're back to the beginning.

Grinding or milling the individual components as fine as possible and then mixing them is the only way to get good BP. running your mix through a very fine kitchen strainer several times is a good start. Those of us who "Paint the sky with glorious colors" throw everything in ball mills but that's a whole different story.

Making BP is not as safe as sitting in a lounge chair with a cold beverage but if done correctly, is less dangerous than casting "boolits".

rob55

06-26-2012, 10:49 PM

Netranger said

AHhhhhhhh man

Now i have to buy a black powder rifle

Isn't a 32 20 or a 38 40 etc a black powder rifle? How corrosive is this stuff? What is the proper procedure for cleaning a 50 year old gun after using it? How do you think it will effect a modern stainless steel gun? I know nothing about black powder, but I'm willing to learn. anybody shoot this stuff in old carbines? Love this site.

mold maker

07-04-2012, 11:53 AM

Well after searching in vain, for over a year, I found black willow growing right where it's supposed to be.
In all the trips Ive made to the cemetery, I guess I had other things on my mind. Both my parents and a lot of my family are buried there. This time I was just following the creek/branches, with willow on my mind. The creek runs along the cemeteries future expansion edge.
There among the usual over growth along a wet area, stood 4 black willows in plane view. I walked to them and broke off a couple branches, to bring home to compare with the pictures on line.
Sure nuff its an exact match.
Wouldn't ya know it, I made my great find on the 4th of July, when the city offices are closed? Well you can bet your last dollar, as soon as I drop the grand son, off at camp in the morning, I'll be dancing, in front of, the city office window, waiting for it to open. I have to find out for sure whose property its on, and get permission to harvest some.
I can already smell the aroma of my home made black powder, fired from my Springfield Trapdoor.
BTW Today was my Dads Birthday. ( 07/04/1911) Do ya think he's still helping me?

phuphuphnik

07-18-2012, 07:57 AM

Just a little reminder to be careful. I still have nerve damage, and new skin from forearm to fingertips. This was 2 weeks after catching fire making rocket fuel.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_237195006a3f9a6c28.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5942)

trooperdan

07-18-2012, 10:07 AM

What propellant were you making, black powder or nitrate-sugar based?

mold maker

07-18-2012, 10:46 AM

Ouch...That had to hurt like heck. Hope the recovery is complete.

phuphuphnik

07-19-2012, 03:23 AM

What propellant were you making, black powder or nitrate-sugar based?

Potassium Nitrate and sucrose. 45 miles down a logging road to the hospital. Got lucky, the ER Dr there just got back from Afghanistan, and had plenty of experience with this sort of thing.

Proper lab hygiene would of saved my hands. Always keep the airspace above your work clear. I reached over to turn down the heat and foom. Cooked Chris. We actually got audio of it!
I give talks at amateur rocket launches about my stupid, stupid mistake so that others won't make it.

Sad thing is that engine would make 150 newtons (30 pounds) of thrust for 3-4 seconds. sending it up around 3000 feet. Spent weeks making the DeLaval nozzles. Never got to see it go. Stopped messing with rockets about that time. (shrug)

Longwood

07-19-2012, 08:25 AM

Potassium Nitrate and sucrose. 45 miles down a logging road to the hospital. Got lucky, the ER Dr there just got back from Afghanistan, and had plenty of experience with this sort of thing.

Proper lab hygiene would of saved my hands. Always keep the airspace above your work clear. I reached over to turn down the heat and foom. Cooked Chris. We actually got audio of it!
I give talks at amateur rocket launches about my stupid, stupid mistake so that others won't make it.

Sad thing is that engine would make 150 newtons (30 pounds) of thrust for 3-4 seconds. sending it up around 3000 feet. Spent weeks making the DeLaval nozzles. Never got to see it go. Stopped messing with rockets about that time. (shrug)

Burns sure are painful.
Sorry to hear of your mishap.
I have friend that fly rockets but I prefer wings, a seat and stick and rudder for my flying.
I did rockets when I was in my teens but we had very limited supplies to use and even less info.
Can you tell us what happened,,,
Did a mixture ignite?

rbuck351

08-11-2012, 12:08 AM

I made my first attempt last week. I have an old rock tumbler that I added about 50 45cal lead balls to. I took some of the charcoal bits and pieces out of the wood stove and pounded them with a hammer until they were fairly small pieces. I used sulfer from the pet and garden supply that is 90% pure. It was in little pellets so I smashed them with the hammer as well. The KNO3 also came from the pet and garden store and is apparently fairly pure. So i weighed out the stuff and threw it in the tumbler and ran it for about 6 hrs. It was a really fine powder to which I added just enough 50/50 water /alcohol to make a putty like goop. I put some of this goop in a steel tube with a steel piston and put it in my 12 ton press and took it just about to the max. Most of the liquid was squeezed out and I had a pellet that looked a lot like the new BP pellets you can buy for your muzzle stuffer. I cut about 15/20 grs off, chopped it up and let it dry over night. I didn't bother to weigh it as I was in too big a hurry to see if it would work. So I poured that dried pile in the cyl of my Pietta 44 and ramed a ball on top. Looked like it filled the cyl about half way. I set up a couple of 2x4s capped it and pulled the trigger. I was plesantly surprised by a nice bang and a ball a little over half way through the first 2x4. SWMBO came down stairs and informed me I was done experimenting in the basement. So, until I get time to hit the range with the chrony, I'm just guessing. But it looks like I've made a very usable BP. I'm still going to add some dextrin to keep the powder from turning to dust but other than that I think I'm good to go.

gamma50

08-23-2012, 11:19 PM

how i made it was with store bought potassium nitrate sublimed sulfur and made my charchoal from red oak, mix the ammounts together then wet it with uric acid, my own brew, if ya can get bull pee it has alot more ammonia in it, but the pee in a bottle will evaporate the water and leave behind the acid which adds alot of pow to the mix,i let the mix dry in the sun, it would be a solid block of dark brown powder, then break it up to desired sizes,1f to 4f,they used to sell these chemials at the drug stores next to witch hazel, glycerin, camphor, wets and dries.my first post. wierd?

SciFiJim

08-24-2012, 12:07 AM

gamma50, Welcome to CastBoolits!

Yes, a little weird using your own urine in the mix. I guess that you can say that you really put yourself into it.

H.Callahan

08-24-2012, 03:07 PM

I wonder if they can trace the DNA from the powder residue?

:bigsmyl2:

I'll Make Mine

08-25-2012, 08:57 PM

I wonder if they can trace the DNA from the powder residue?

:bigsmyl2:

Depends on how completely the powder burns. OTOH, they'll know they're looking for homemade powder almost immediately due to lack of taggants (micro-particles introduced into all explosives made in the USA to allow tracing of the material after it's served its intended purpose -- though perhaps not for the intended end result).

waksupi

08-25-2012, 10:37 PM

The taggants never got passed. Non-starter.

I'll Make Mine

08-26-2012, 10:03 AM

The taggants never got passed. Non-starter.

They were in some brands before BATF (then without the E) even started to consider them. I recall the stink about how they might alter the behavior of some materials etc. -- last I heard, the thinking was that if DuPont could put 'em in without messing up the product, so could Hercules. Must have missed the lobbies winning the day.

hithard

08-30-2012, 01:38 AM

So tell me, when all this dry's, how do you go about classifying it all into f,ff,fff,ffff, or do you just measure, load and shoot, staying on the light side of charges.

mold maker

08-30-2012, 01:05 PM

I'd like an answer to that also. I'm trying to get all the ducks in a row, but there are still a few spaces. No use in me making the same mistakes others have already over come.

Rojelio

08-30-2012, 05:09 PM

I use a set of screens. I have screens from 1/4" all the way down to where only talcum powder will pass through. Just screen it to the size you want. Don't ask me where to buy them as they were given to me. They're about 10" in diameter.

Roger

My screens are kinda like this one. It works good.
http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Sieve-Rim-Mesh/dp/B0037XH6MM/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1346361594&sr=8-14&keywords=soil+sifter

Jeffrey

09-02-2012, 12:11 PM

Check out these mesh strainers. http://restaurant-supplies.etundra.com/search#w=mesh strainer Don't know anything about them. I've been following this thread, saw the last post, wanted to contribute.

3006guns

09-19-2012, 08:52 PM

Well, I just made my first official batch of home made black. I used the amounts (in grams) specified by the OP, but omitted the boiling and alcohol. I simply reduced all chemicals to powder and CAREFULLY dry mixed all three, adding stale urine. I manufactured some dextrin by roasting a pound of corn meal and added it to the wet mix with the intention of keeping the granuals intact.

I made four mistakes.....

I should have ground the potassium nitrate to a fine powder. I left it in its granular state and it probably didn't completely incorporate.

I got the mix too wet and had to wait for it to dry before proceeding. It doesn't take much to soak it! My "bisquit dough" looked more like runny mud. Oops.

The sieve I bought was far too fine. Along with the overly wet mix, the powder stuck on the outside and had to be scraped off resulting in clumps. These were easily broken apart when dry, but the granulation is uneven. Looks like a mix of cannon powder and FFFg.

I should have used more dextrin......the larger clumps break apart too easily in my opinion.

Despite all this when the powder was dry I touched a half teaspoon full with a match and, although it took a second, it ignited and burned quite rapidly...as in "WHOOSH!". It WILL drive a projectile down a barrel, that's for sure. Lots of nice sulphur smoke too.

I did this out of natural curiosity and the fact that there's no store within 200 miles that carries black powder. When I did find some it was $22/pound!:groner:

Rojelio

09-20-2012, 02:56 PM

3006guns, your roasted corn meal didn't make dextrin (unless that was a typo). You have to use corn starch.

Roger

3006guns

09-20-2012, 05:46 PM

Thank you Rojelio.....it was indeed corn starch. I usually check my posts very carefully and I'm glad you caught that. Might have given someone some grief!

I tried a batch today using the same ingredients, but using a 50/50 mix of denatured alcohol and water instead of the urine. Mixed it very thoroughly and squeezed out the excess liquid through some T shirt material. I found a sieve that produces a nice, uniform grain size that can be further reduced to about 3fg size. The powder seems to ignite with the same speed as my first batch, that is, perhaps 1/2 second to burn a pile about an inch in diameter and not the "poof" I was hoping for. It DOES ignite in a flintlock pan though, so perhaps I should actually shoot a few rounds and see how it behaves.

One other thing......I notice that after burning, the powder leaves globules of something fairly hard. Possibly melted sulphur? There's no noticeable smell of sulphur during burning either (I'm using an agricultural quality sulphur that looks pretty clean and is a very fine "talcum powder" consistancy).

Any ideas from our more experienced "pyro fans" out there?:)

I'll Make Mine

09-20-2012, 07:41 PM

The small, hard globules left behind are probably potassium sulfate or unreacted sulfur, with a slight chance of potassium hydroxide. If you can drop a globule into water, it's potassium sulfate if it dissolves quickly, sulfur if it does nothing, and potassium hydroxide if it makes a little crackle as it boils water directly in contact with the globule.

If you're getting unreacted sulfur, you could try increasing your saltpeter a little (adding oxidizer); if potassium hydroxide, a little less oxidizer might be good. Potassium sulfate is the normal corrosive salt left by burning black powder (in a gun, most of it is blown out in the white smoke cloud).

3006guns

09-20-2012, 08:11 PM

Thank you! That's the kind of information I need. Just one question.....does the water have to be boiling or would just hot or cold work? (just trying to be thorough)

lavenatti

09-23-2012, 01:44 PM

Guys, if you really want to make usable BP check out the following website:
http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/
Read the sections on Black Powder and Charcoal as a Variable (at a minimum).

I read some good and some not so good advise in this thread, it's not difficult to make BP faster than is available commercially but it has to be done correctly. The listed website will help with that.

3006guns

09-24-2012, 12:29 PM

That's a very informative website..........thanks for posting!

After a decided failure with the alcohol method, I sat back and reflected on my methods vs. results.

The ordinary urine BP was simple to make and worked well, although a bit slow, and left bits of unburned sulphur. I suddenly realized that I wasn't really incorporating my ingredients all that well and further research bears that out. As a result I ordered a small, inexpensive rock tumbler in order to mill the ingredients (remotely!). Once everything is well pulverized and thoroughly mixed I'll experiment with both urine and a 50/50 water alcohol mix. I'm hoping the urine mix will be adequate therefore eliminating the additional cost of the alcohol, but we'll see.

The whole idea here is to produce small amounts of a propellant that is at least equal to the commercial powder, at a lower cost. It must be safe, stable, produce equal pressures and above all, smell like sulphur!:-D

Update: after posting the above, I noticed my "ugly" alcohol powder had dried. It looked for all the world like very coarse grey sand, with little yellow speckles. Might as well see if it even ignites, so I put a small amount in a steel bowl and touched a match to it. Wow......despite everything going wrong during its manufacture, it took off much more quickly than my previous mixes. I attribute this to better incorporation and the alcohol precipitation. Once I've ball milled the ingredients, adding alcohol and some water as the wetting agents should do the trick. More to come in the next few days!

lavenatti

09-25-2012, 07:11 AM

While it may seem like the right thing to do, wetting can be counterproductive and urine adds nothing but odor.

In a typical rock tumbler you'll want to fill it half way with your milling media - .50 cal hard lead balls will be fine, add 75 grams potassium nitrate, 15 grams of charcoal (use the proper charcoal) and 10 grams of sulfur. If you're using garden sulfur add 11 grams to make up for the clay binder they use to form it into little pellets.

It won't look like much in the container but more won't mill properly. Now run it for at least six hours. You should have a fine uniform powder with a slightly greenish cast to it.

Don't wet it.
Mix a solution of 9 parts hot water to one part dextrin (this method was developed by Eugene Yurek and I've seen it posted with fantastic results on several pyro sites) it will take some work to dissolve it all.
Now add 15% (by weight) of this solution to your powder and mix it in well, up to 20% can be added if necessary.
Now push the powder through a window screen onto a layer of newspaper to granulate it. Leave the layer thin to allow it to dry easily.

Give it a few hours to dry and test a little by lighting it on a piece of white paper. You should have a quick poof and there shouldn't be anything left on the paper but a stain.

By dissolving the dextrin in the water first there is not a lot of water left to dissolve your potassium nitrate. If the potassium nitrate dissolves it will form larger crystals as your powder drys. Larger crystals will cause it to burn slower, this is why wetting powder is not the best method for a fast powder.

The charcoal, if you've read the referenced website, is half the battle. Using a "fast" charcoal like Tree of Heaven or black willow will make all the difference in the final product. There are plenty of articles on making your own charcoal available on the web.

Commercially they would press the dry powder from the mill to a density of 1.7 grams per cubic centimeter. This forms it into a solid "puck". The pucks would then be broken up (corning) and seived to seperate the different sizes into 2F, 4F etc.
The powder may further be "polished" by tumbling with graphite.

3006guns

09-25-2012, 07:45 AM

Sounds like an excellent, well thought out method. I was wondering about the loss of nitrates with the water and, of course, the answer is NOT to wash it away in the first place. I'll give it a try.

lavenatti

09-25-2012, 11:31 AM

Great, I can't wait to hear about your results.

Be carefull with your grinding media, lead is fine but ball bearings and ceramic may spark so they are a no-no.
Occasional clumping may occur when milling. If you check your mill periodically you should see fluffy powder when you open it. If everything is clumped up try drying your saltpeter in the oven at 250 degrees F for a few hours and try again. Milling during cold weather seems to reduce the clumping problems. (you are milling outside aren't you?)
If everything clumps up after 4-6 hours it may just be finished.

Also, milling all the components seperately to a fine powder before mixing and milling together will reduce your final milling time a little and avoid lumps of charcoal in the final product.

atom73

09-25-2012, 11:39 AM

Still learning from you guys about BP making. Happy to see that lots of folks are still here and safely experimenting. I must say I am very interested in trying the other process of ball milling and dextrin addition, Im not beholden to any technique in particular, just the best one. Thanks for all the input.
Mike

3006guns

09-25-2012, 05:54 PM

Freightman

10-01-2012, 03:17 PM

I just got 10# of KNO3 from Duda Diesel 99% pure and with shipping it came out $3.06 per # I did some figuring and it will do aprox. 20#+ so the cost per # even with buying the sulfur will be at $2+ - not bad for so much fun.

lavenatti

10-11-2012, 11:42 AM

Another KNO3 source.

http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=264_268&products_id=334

ROGER4314

12-16-2012, 02:14 PM

Great writeup..........thanks!

I made black powder as a teenager and had a few mishaps and scars to show for it. I'm not sure that I'd do that inside of the house!

The Saltpeter is Potassium Nitrate and one of the major sources of the KNO3 is bat poop. It gets many feet thick in places where large populations of bats "Hang out" (pun intended)! There were battles in our US Civil War where the objectives of the fight were to gain possession of caves that were loaded with Bat Poop.

A few words may be worthwhile here. Black powder WILL explode when crushed and it is generally sensitive to impact. The cap guns we had as kids used BP. Also remember how the caps rusted our cap guns?

Black powder is regulated as an explosive and there are strict regulations on selling and storage. The same restrictions are not applied to smokeless powder or to BP substitutes like Triple 7 or Pyrodex. That's why it's more common to find the substitutes instead of real BP at retail.

Flash

o6Patient

01-11-2013, 12:58 PM

markinalpine : GRAPHITE is used to coat the powder it slightly slows the burning process and helps keep powder from absorbing moisture from the air. While Graphite is nearly pure carbon so are diamonds neither burn well because of the way the atoms are chained together.

atom73: Have you ever tried with much less water potassium nitrate will not dissolve in alcohol but every drop of water leaving takes some with it.

Graphite's purpose as applied to powder is to keep it from building up a static charge; it's conductivity.
I don't believe it alone will protect it from moisture per say. In fact graphite, as I understand it...and I could be wrong, gets it's lubricity by capturing moisture from the atmosphere and incorporating into it's structural layers. That is why graphite can cause pitting if left in contact with ferrous metal, under certain conditions, some think it prevents this but in fact it can actually promote corrosion, again I could be wrong, but I did read up on it a little a few years ago and thought I understood it correctly, it was a learning experience for me at the time.

o6Patient

01-11-2013, 01:32 PM

markinalpine : GRAPHITE is used to coat the powder it slightly slows the burning process and helps keep powder from absorbing moisture from the air. While Graphite is nearly pure carbon so are diamonds neither burn well because of the way the atoms are chained together.

atom73: Have you ever tried with much less water potassium nitrate will not dissolve in alcohol but every drop of water leaving takes some with it.

Graphite will burn but it's hard to ignite, Diamonds don't burn easily under normal conditions.
(diamonds in a normal atmospheric oxygen level of 20% won't burn until well over 1500 degrees).

Graphite's other main contribution to smokeless powder, which I neglected to mention
above, and is obvious , is that being a lubricant , it keeps separation of the kernels
which is critical to the flow-ability and the powder's particular burn rate.
(again as I understand it)

hatcreek

03-15-2013, 08:46 PM

if you ever need belts for your ball mill I use old bike inner tubes cut into bands about 3/8" thick, work great. HC

OBIII

03-16-2013, 02:37 PM

I may have missed it, but did anyone come up with the screen sizes for the different grades of powder? Anyone have a source?
I will try this one day, and with the wealth of knowledge in this thread should have an easy time of it. Actually, I made about a pound when I was 13 with just mixing the dry ingredients. Best smoke bomb I have ever made, as I did not think it was ever going out.

OB

James6406

03-26-2013, 07:13 PM

Thank for to the OP, the reply posters, and more info links. I found this thread absolutely fascinating. I am 55 and must have spent most of those years in a cave with the bats. I had no idea there were so many people making their own powder. I would love to try this but my wife already thinks I am nuts. Good thing I didn't know about this when I was a kid!

ofitg

03-26-2013, 08:35 PM

Sounds like an excellent, well thought out method. I was wondering about the loss of nitrates with the water and, of course, the answer is NOT to wash it away in the first place. I'll give it a try.

Here is an excerpt from Ian Von Maltitz's book, Blackpowder Manufacturing, Testing & Optimizing -

An early Chinese method (circa 600 AD) used a large marble slab to cool a hot mix of Black Powder. They did this by first blending together the sulfur and charcoal in a bowl. A saturated solution of potassium nitrate was then brought to the boil and the sulfur /charcoal mix added to it, with constant stirring.
This hot mix was then rapidly cooled by pouring it onto a cold marble slab, and still stirred while cooling. This stirring aided the cooling process and ensured uniformity in the mix. One method they used to stir the mix was to pass a large stone roller back and forth over the cooling mass of Black Powder.
In some respects this cool marble method is similar to the CIA method in that it works on the principle of rapidly cooling a saturated mix of Black Powder. I don't know of anyone who has tried to emulate this rather unique Chinese method of manufacture. Naturally it comes with the normal dangers associated with a hot mix of Black Powder. It also suffers from some of the deficiencies found in the CIA method, the most important of these being the need to mill the sulfur and charcoal and thoroughly blend these before mixing with the potassium nitrate.
However, it does have an advantage over the CIA method in that there is less chance of losing potassium nitrate through leaching out.

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I might add that it helps not to use too much water! At boiling temperature, one ounce of water is more than enough to dissolve two ounces of KNO3

mold maker

03-27-2013, 02:44 PM

That is interesting. I have everything required, and the stone is outdoors, in below freezing night time temps. Looks worth a try.

ofitg

03-27-2013, 03:01 PM

I have done something similar.... I mixed the ball-milled sulfur/charcoal with water and then heated it.... when it started boiling, I stirred in the KNO3 (powder) for about 30 seconds and then dumped the "soup" into a large Pyrex baking dish (at room temperature). Within one second or so, the soup cools and congeals into a "sludge" consistency. With a little help from a small desk fan, it dries overnight.

psychicrhino

03-28-2013, 11:03 AM

Great read. Very interesting.

HDS

06-18-2013, 12:30 AM

So I was gonna try and buy some black powder but at the cost of 115 euros per kilo or ~2lbs I decided against it. I googled around and could not find anything that said it'd be illegal to make here, someone said it was legal, so now I have bought 800 grams of airfloat grade willow charcoal and another 900 grams of sulphur. I got access to free 99% KNO3 via my parents farm so in terms of components this powder is gonna cost me about 4 euros a kilo vs 115.

e:

I've been looking through the various methods and simply cooking up the ingredients in water until you get the right consistency seems like the simplest method to me, then add alcohol (does it have to be isopropyl, what about denatured alcohol). What I see most people do after is corn it before it dries. But it seems to me that what the pros do is make compressed pucks. From what I've understood of the process, compressing it into pucks is what yields higher densities like the storebought stuff. Then you corn it. They smash the pucks with mallets then sift through multiple meshes. I am wondering if you could use an adjustable mill to grind these up into consistent granules?

I don't really understand why the ball mill method should be better than this procedure however? I thought it was because it mixes stuff better than dry mixing with mortar & pestle, but if I use prebought superfine charcoal etc and mix wet it seems to me I should get the same results more or less.

Blacksmith

06-28-2013, 01:18 PM

Here is a site that sells BP kits. They also have ball mills and other handy chemicals. Here is the link to their BP page with information on making.

http://www.unitednuclear.com/bp.htm

wyofool

06-29-2013, 08:25 PM

lavenatti

07-01-2013, 08:29 AM

I don't really understand why the ball mill method should be better than this procedure however? I thought it was because it mixes stuff better than dry mixing with mortar & pestle, but if I use prebought superfine charcoal etc and mix wet it seems to me I should get the same results more or less.

When a wet method is used a good portion of the potassium nitrate dissolves in the liquid. As this mixture dries, the crystals of potassium nitrate that form as they come out of solution are larger than what would be obtained when the ball mill method is used. This is probably the only drawback to the wet method and causes the resultant powder to be slower than what could be obtained with ballmilling.
The smaller the sizes of all the particles and the more intimate the mix the faster the powder will be.
That's not to say you can't make perfectly servicable powder with the wet method.
The "CIA" method calls for dumping a large amount of alcohol into the wet powder. This done to 'crash' the potassium nitrate out of solution quickly and form small crystals as it does so.

3006guns

07-12-2013, 08:29 PM

I just tested some of my home made black this afternoon. I used a basic method involving water, not alcohol. The ingredients were all run through a coffee mill individually, including some home made dextrin. They were carefully weighed on a lab scale, wetted and mixed. After drying and screening (approx. 2fg), four 12 gauge shotgun shells were loaded and the first thing I noticed was that, using the same scoop I use for commercial powder, mine occupied far less space when the over powder wad was compressed. Did the grains crumble?

I took my faithful Husqvarna hammer gun out to the range and loaded one barrel. Held it away from my body and pulled the trigger. Now, I had ear muffs on but I suspect they weren't really necessary as the report was something between a mouse fart and the sound of molding cheese. There WAS some recoil.......about what you'd expect from a cap pistol. In other words, it was hardly inspiring. When fired at the ground fifteen feet away, the #7 shot just fell on the ground.

Okay, so what did I do wrong? Well for starters I don't think I incorporated the chemicals well enough. The proportions were correct, but they were mixed while wet for safety (and that's fine) but dry mixing them in a remote ball mill would guarantee proper incorporation. Using just enough liquid to form a cake afterwards would allow "screening" into grains.

Update: I discovered a very simple fact.....according to my research, my home made powder is less dense than commercial. In other words, it takes more of my home made to generate the same pressure as commercial. I just finished a fresh batch and after it dries I'll load it into a couple of 12 ga. shells, but THIS time I'll use a 3 dram charge instead of 2.5 as before. I'll report back after the test shots.

super6

08-01-2013, 07:17 PM

The last thing I want to do is hijack this thread. As a fireworker I have resolved the issues of making goex type quality powder. With that said is there any interest in learning how to do it the right way? Some of you have most of it right but not all. I'll admit I did not read through all the posts in this thread but the last few begs for clarifacation. Just let me know. OP, let me know if I,m steppen on feet! Or anyone for that matter.

waksupi

08-01-2013, 08:20 PM

Any new knowledge is welcome!

Rojelio

08-01-2013, 08:33 PM

By all means, knowledge is power.

Cosmiceyes

08-01-2013, 08:42 PM

I just love how much a person can really learn in these forums. You have made the new black powder pistol look like more fun. I can't wait to take over the kitchen. Well maybe just near the kitchen. lol Thanks for sharing! :)'s

bbs428

08-02-2013, 11:37 AM

As a new member here, I have been going thru all the threads that spark my interests. This is one thread that, to me, was very interesting. So after I read a bunch on the topic, I made some BP!
I wanted to share my experience with you all, so here we go!

Before I start, I should say this is only for info only. The following experiments were done in an open shed out in the country. All Safety precautions were observed.

I ordered my supplies from Phil's General Store. http://www.ihaveadotcom.com and got started. I used Phil's recipe for BP which you can find at the same web site. Supplies came in quick and were of top notch quality.
Got a dual, 3lb. rock tumbler from Harbor Freight on sale. From Wal-Mart I purchased a digital scale, a large Pyrex bowl, a 5 pack of cheap plastic bowls, Two, 8 in. med and fine screens and 2 cheap spatula's.

Hardest part of the whole process was breaking down the willow lump charcoal into bits that the tumbler could digest well. These bits should be half as small as your little fingernail or smaller.
I ended up using a large left over coffee plastic can. Placed plenty of .60 lead balls in it. Then filled it 3/4 full with the willow charcoal. Got a good workout and in no time flat it was ready for the tumbler.
Put some tape around the lid to reinforce it and to seal in the dust as you really don't need to have it fly off as you shake, rattle and roll all those lead balls and charcoal!

The BP you end up with is dependent on how fine you can get the charcoal. The KN03 and Sulfur was already in powder form. That being said, I still tumbled the green mix for about 2-3 hours. Even though the charcoal had been tumbled over-night.

A critical point in production was how much distilled water to use. I used the 20% suggested in the recipe and ended up with a gel ball that refused to dry up and was horrible to work with. I eventually got it "corned" but it was a real hassle. Once that was accomplished, it dried out fine.

As to the distilled water - The next batch I added half as much, a little at a time, and was rewarded with a ball of modeling clay. This makes it much more manageable and goes thru the screen nicely.

I made a small batch of 4 oz. initially and once I had that under my belt, I corrected my mistakes and made another 8 oz. batch.

I used a large aluminum smooth bottomed cookie sheet like pan with sides to dry the powder under a halogen light. I would have put it out in the sun but it's been raining.
I then separated the grains into fine and med with the screens and placed in separate plastic bowls and labeled them.

Lessons learned, not in any specific order:

1. Use Safety gear - gloves, apron and eye protection. I use a clear grinders shield to protect my face and eyes.
2. Messy! Charcoal dust goes everywhere.
3. Be organized! Cross contamination of products can and will happen if your not careful. Keep the KN03 in a separate location
4. Once the green mix is made extra caution is needed! Think safety.
5. Place all chemicals in a safe separate location before you dry and screen the final product. I work with less than 1/2 lb. at a time...just in case.
6. Be prepared to work! I'm retired and have a lot of time to putter about.
7. DO NOT use your kitchen utensils! LOL!
8. Large Pyrex bowl and the spatulas came in very handy for mixing.
9. Be very careful of mix ratios. Measure thrice, mix once.

With all the stuff I bought (including shipping) my price for this batch is about $10.50 per lb. Once these supplies are exhausted my cost will drop to under $3.00 per lb.

I was pleasantly surprise that my homemade BP equaled and surpassed my store bought powder. Turned out very powerful, smoky and a bit on the messy side - but very acceptable none the less.

If you shoot a lot and/or like to do stuff like this, then it's all worth the time and hassle. Another plus is that if you enjoy fireworks - your well on your way to make more cool stuff!

Cheers. :)

super6

08-02-2013, 05:59 PM

First post of more to come. Tools as follows, A good ball mill at least 6 lb capacity, A 55 gallon steel drum and a 20 gallon steel drum. Making charcoal is not difficult. A 20 ton hydraulic jack and a H frame assembly to make a press. The chemicals are potassium nitrate ( flowable green house grade) rubber makers sulfur both of these can be procured from http://www.ihaveadotcom.com As posted above. As for wood there are dozens of willow varieties all of which will be of different consistencies. We want things to be the same every time in our firearms thats why goex choose maple for their offerings as it was consistent, not the best, but consistent. I work with white pine 2x4s as I get a better product. No spruce pine will work in place of the white pine. This process will not use a drop of water. I will post more in the days ahead if there is still interest.

super6

08-02-2013, 07:40 PM

sorry double post.

Rojelio

08-02-2013, 09:23 PM

I will post more in the days ahead if there is still interest

Yes, please continue.

bbs428

08-03-2013, 12:18 AM

This process will not use a drop of water. I will post more in the days ahead if there is still interest.

Looking forward to reading your method of BP making super6.

I have read that white pine charcoal made a "hotter powder." That's great cause I have a whole stack of cut-offs and a few steal drums to boot. Never crossed my mind that the willow charcoal would be inconsistent from bag to bag. Point well taken.

Got the 20 ton press, so am I interested? You bet!

super6

08-03-2013, 11:37 AM

Now that you have the tools, lets get started! Making the charcoal.. Start by cutting the bottom out of the 55 gallon drum, remove the bungs from the other side. An acetylene torch is handy at this point. let the cut lid stay in the bottom. Your gonna be building a roaring fire in this drum, Burn all the junk wood you have as you will not be harvesting any of it. The goal is to get a quarter barrel of red coal. The 20 gallon drum will be filled with the white pine 2x4s. You will need to cut, split the wood so that 2x2s are in the drum. Measure the 20 gallon from top to botton and and cut the 2x2s so you will have 3 independant layers in the drum. Pack tite but not so tite as to have to force them.Most of the 20 gallon drums come with snap ring type lids for easy removal. Drill 5 quarter" holes in the top of this lid. The gasses will be escapeing through these. Once all that is done its time to cook your coal! this is a 6 beer job. After you set the little drum in the big one, fill the empty space in the big drum with more junk wood, The whole ideal is to keep flames around the little drum. Once things get started you will see lots of smoke pouring from the holes you drilled, Soon little jets of flame will appear, Let this happen till the flames stop, about 4 beers into it. Now at this point the flames have settled down in the big drum and no more flames in the little drum, leave the little one there for 20 minutes or so. Using heavy gloves, Pull the little drum out and stick the lid side in the dirt. This will stop any air from comming into the drum. Let it cool over night. Go sleep the beer off! more to come!

super6

08-04-2013, 12:48 PM

By now the lids have been popped off all those 20 gallon drums! That black blue shiny coal is Just what the doctor ordered. Go ahead and snap a few pieces into, Black all the way through? good.Now bust it up in a turkey cooker pot or something similar.
Now, A bit about ball mills. No matter what you choose as a ball mill there are certain criteria that must be followed, Use common sense, Your neighbours will not be understanding if you blow their house to pieces nor will the police.
All milling must be done in a remote location. Use an extention cord to stop and start the mill, If it blows and your standing next to it , Not pretty. The optimal load of your mill is as follows, Fill half full with your media lead balls or cylinders are best. I use a 8" jar and 3/4" media. Add your ingrediants till you have 1/4 of the jar left empty
The rotational speed should be 70 R.P.Ms
Or there abouts. 4 to 6 hours latter, You have excellent green mix. Use 75/15/10 as your base mix.75 being the nitrate, 15 your coal. This is the Waltham Abbey mix,

super6

08-04-2013, 02:45 PM

This is where I have some problems with miss information being passed from forum to forum. No powder for a gun should be used unless its corned. Granulated powder is fine for fireworks. Phil Will tell you thats what his workup was about. So put your liquids and screens away for now. We will continue, If Its O.K.

waksupi

08-04-2013, 03:33 PM

Just keep going.

mold maker

08-04-2013, 07:07 PM

A 20 gal drum of charcoal will will make a serious batch of finished product. It really fluffs up when milled to fine powder. Be prepared for a big mess if your not careful.
That stuff will cause black boogers two days later. Not to mention the neighbors laundry on the line.
Just saying.

super6

08-04-2013, 07:16 PM

Just about 10 to 15 lbs. LOL. I'll Have some tips on how to avoid the mess later!

bbs428

08-05-2013, 10:13 AM

All sounds good so far.
I'm interested how you corn the product without the distilled water.
I'm guessing that the pressure from the 20t press does the same thing without the water???

super6

08-05-2013, 05:16 PM

Good guess bbs428, The sulfur will (flow) at those pressures and become a plasticizer. The pucks will ckink when struck against each other sounding similar to red clay garden pots. Today is not a good day to finish this thing. I will be back tomorrow and finish to the end. Thanks to all who was interested enough to read through it!

Lee

08-06-2013, 05:51 PM

So.. I can use an empty peanut butter jar with grinding media and "stuff" and have it last 2-3-4 hours??? Great news. I've priced ceramic ball mills, and the prices are way out there. (Used to work at a place with 200-300 of the 1 quart d*** things. Should have asked for a couple of the damaged ones!!!)

super6

08-06-2013, 06:35 PM

Lee get yourself a peice of pvc and a washing machine moter, And some pullys. Do some researh brother. LoL.

super6

08-06-2013, 07:39 PM

Lets finish this thing up. So far I assume you followed along. Theres one thing left to do, Make a substantial vessel to carry the 20 tons of pressure your gonna put to the powder. I found some scrap aluminum barstock a one foot piece, bought some alum 3" quarter walled tubing, and enough band clamps to cover the entire length. Buy the best clamps you can find! Find someone who will let you borrow a band saw thats big enough to cut the lenght down one side. Some 1/4 inch x 3" seperaters are handy at this point.The powder has to be pressed to 1.7 grams per cubic cm. Or close. I press 600 grams at a time and use the quarter seperaters as a guage . I found that useing 600 grams of green powder divided into 100 gram incraments, 6 divisons will produce 1/2 inch pucks if the space being consumed is three and 7/8 of an inch. You can use beer can stock as dividers, You wil have to adjust the math. To make things simple, Pump the jack till you can't pump no more. If there are are any questions on how to corn the product and screen to size just ask!

bbs428

08-07-2013, 06:42 PM

TY super6. fascinating stuff. Finding scrap aluminum around here is I bit dicey as every resourcfull citizen for miles around has scraped any metal for cash. :(
But it does sound like the way to go as this method is the same the pro's use. I'll keep my eyes open for that aluminum pipe. Might come in handy.

All this sure sounds like a bunch of work. You really need to shoot a lot to justify going this route, or anything resembling what we have done in this thread for that matter! Lol

Lee - There's a good write-up on a homemade ball mill in this link. http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/blackpowder2.html

The same (link) article also states you can use a reinforced 1 1/2 in. pvc tube for pressing the pucks. No details on the reinforcing.
Still... I think I'll give it a go and report back at the results and how it stacks up to the process I described earlier. Got a few ideas on how to reinforce the schedule 40 PVC pipe. I have plenty of that on hand.

I did like the method I used. The results were good, it was fairly easy to accomplish and reasonably safe to make. :roll:

I shot some yesterday and I'm still quiet happy on the performance of my homemade powder. Got off a dozen or so rounds in the TC .50 Hawkin and the Remington pistol. I shot some Swiss BP also along side it and I feel my BP is a scosh on the weak side... but not by much.

Price-wise, I like mine mucho bettero. (some really bad Spanish lingo)

Cheers

super6

08-08-2013, 05:41 PM

bbs428, the website you refered to: http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fire...ckpowder2.html Belongs to danny creagan, Read the whole site if you already have not, lots of good pyro info. pvc can be used with what's called clamshell supports made of two steel halves bolted together around the pvc, Half dozen one 6 the other. If you do not use this method right off the rip at least you have the knowledge to do so latter.

super6

08-09-2013, 05:57 PM

Once again, Thanks to everyone for being patient with me. I,m sure not cutting anyones elses method for making bp for their guns, Just an alternative thats been around since old roger did the same.

Jamesconn

09-23-2013, 01:57 PM

Is this more cost effective than buyin BP yourself or is it just a hobby?

PhilS

09-23-2013, 02:58 PM

It is most assuredly less expensive to make your own. You can make 3 pounds for under $40. If you buy your components in larger quantities or make your own charcoal, the price drops considerably.

http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_119&products_id=414 (It is most assuredly less expensive to make your own. You can make 3 pounds for under $40. If you buy your components in larger quantities or make your own charcoal, the price drops considerably. http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_119&products_id=414)

super6

09-26-2013, 07:34 PM

Good to see you here Phil.

jimbull34

11-13-2013, 04:16 PM

Good to see you here Phil.I am a black powder shooter and make my own bp, however I do it alttle bit differently. Heres how I do it: potassium nitrate 80%, sulfur 10% and charcoal 15%. Mix all throughly, pour out in a cookie pan and sprinkle with stale urine, you own! mix the goop up until it forms a ball and then let sit until dry. Then run it thru a grate to get it "corned". This is the important part, bp has to be "peened" as say the brits when they first started making it and it is this process that has caused it to be very dangerous. Lots of missing hands, arms etc from peening too hard. So, what I do is put my mix in my rock polisher along with a hand full of marbles and turn it on and leave it to run over night. I actually have less smoke with this mix then I do using white hots! My very first batch I did without peening and it would not fire, so the old timers are right, the powder has to be peened! This method is not anywhere near as dangerous as using alcohol and heat!!!!

Garyshome

11-13-2013, 04:26 PM

Good Info although I don't DO black powder....yet.

jimbull34

11-15-2013, 03:02 PM

Just a little up date on the bp, this is what I have swaged for shooting with my .50 cal. These are made from .45acp brass in the swages that I made. These are 325g slugs and they shoot great, a 1" round at 50 yds. Form me with open sights, I can't bet better then that. BP deer season opens on the 18th and I can't wait!!!!!87545

Blizzard63

01-28-2014, 11:45 AM

I think it's very interesting how the molecules stick together ,, the Kno3,charcoal and sulfer to form something so powerful like the BP. :)

chrissy4560

02-02-2014, 03:57 PM

KNO3 stands for potassium Nitrate
K for the periodic symbol for potassium
N for Nitrogen
O3 for 3 Oxygen molecules
It is an oxidizing agent. 15 or so years ago it was available as a fertilizer at landscaping supply places. The government has since virtually eliminated it under the banner of fighting terrorism. Its sad I am 23 and was one of the last that got to play with it as a kid.

chrissy4560

02-02-2014, 03:59 PM

Thanks for sharing i will have to try it out. where can you still get potassium Nitrate from?

trooperdan

02-02-2014, 04:04 PM

It is still available as fertilizer, look for 13-0-46 as the type. For example a 52 pound bag on Amazon is about $80... and that is too high!

ACrowe25

02-02-2014, 04:52 PM

Okay, two questions. I am a chemist by trade, thus this is of interest for me. I don't should BP yet unfortunately. Remember theory and practicality from less than pure ingredients changes thing.

It looks like the entire process is just a form of recrystallization? Both of my suggestions lead me to a higher "pure" product yield within the lab. I spent a lot of time performing recrystalizations in the lab during my undergrad.

1.) you mention just enough water, not too much, etc for kno3. Excellent point. My suggestion... Use about 1/2 you need, in one pot... Bring it to a boil or just under even... And have another pot of boiling water. Slowly add excess water to the kno3 and stir well. Give it time, the kno3 will rapidly dissolve completely into solution "out of nowhere".

2.) another trick I've learned is don't immediately add to the ice bath. Slow cooling is optimal for proper crystallization. Give it 10-15 minutes on the counter to come to room temp... And THEN hit the ice bath. It allows crystals to more easily crash out of solution.

ACrowe25

02-02-2014, 04:53 PM

As in the end, my goal and your goal are the same. Producing pure products at the highest yield. Good luck.

trooperdan

02-03-2014, 11:28 AM

Skylighter is having a one-day 2 for 1 special, all the chemical to make 10 pounds of powder for $44 plus shipping... so you get what you need for 20 pounds of powder just today for the $44 plus shipping.

http://www.skylighter.com/making-black-powder.html?utm_content=A&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=BPTIMES2

T-Man

02-04-2014, 07:47 AM

I don't know of anyone is even following this post any more, but I do make my own powder and wanted to comment. I always leave my 'slurry' over night in the fridge before drying it and final processing. I also use stale horse urine. Nasty, I know, but it oxidizes way better than plain H2O. I also use nothing but Alder charcoal. If you're a dedicated powder maker, do what I did and plant some alder saplings on a fence row. Pruning every year and putting the cuttings up in wire wrapped bunches, storing them in the attic to dry. You will be amazed at the increase in performance of your finished product by substituting the urine for water, and using alder charcoal. Human urine can be used, but I just have issues with that. To each his own.

Bert2368

02-04-2014, 01:30 PM

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-165.jpg (http://s559.photobucket.com/user/Bert2368/media/photo-165.jpg.html)

I use black powder in my work. By the ton. When I checked inventory at year's end, we had about 800lb. of various types of bulk BP in the magazine, not counting many more tons on site as part of finished display fireworks

I made my first batch of BP at about 16- Converted my Sears Roebuck & Co. rock polisher into a ball mill...

I don't have the time these days to make BP, we generally buy it in the form of finished goods (we import display fireworks). The bulk powder is mostly used for repairing shells and special effects work.

Making black powder is intrinsically dangerous. That never stopped me as a lad, but I was usually somewhat careful and in hindsight, VERY lucky at times. I have no scars or legal issues from my childhood experiments and amateur fireworks making days. Many others were not so lucky. Some of you have/are going to make powder no matter what, the best I can do to mitigate your hazards is point out the safety & legal issues, direct you to good information and suggest a reasonably safe/efficient method.

Always proceed with the thought "what is the worst thing that can happen when I do this?", and conduct yourself accordingly.

If you're doing something with explosives and you hear a little voice in the back of your head say "maybe this isn't a good idea?" LISTEN TO IT AND STOP! I've heard too many people tell me about that little voice... From a bed in a burn ward.

First off: Do everything OUTSIDE, not in your house (NOT in the garage next to your lawn mower, cars, gasoline cans & etc. either!)

I personally know a couple of people who thought just going out to the garage was acceptable. They survived, but large parts of their garages did NOT. So don't... The fire department and insurance claims adjusters won't be considerate and understanding if you do. They may call BATFE, who likely will be even less kind and considerate.

Choose a place sheltered from the weather, away from kids, dogs, wives and other distractions. A few 2x4's, sheets of 1/2" plywood for a roof and tarps on 2 sides for a wall will be enough structure. Be sure if you need to run away quickly that you can do so- If there's a door, NOTHING should be between you and it and any door should NOT latch- it must OPEN OUTWARDS AT A PUSH! I have been told by persons who experienced accidents that it's very hard to find doorknobs in a cloud of black powder smoke while your hair and clothing are on fire. It would be best you disn't learn that the hard way...

Wear no synthetic materials while handling explosives. These may generate static electricity, and having melted plastic all over your 2nd and 3rd degree burns will complicate your treatment in the burn ward. Choose Cotton, wool, leather. None of these continue to burn with a flame after the flame source is removed.

Don't work in dry cold weather or other conditions that generate
static electricity. Learn about grounding, you really don't want to have a big fat static spark jump from you to the pile of powder you're handling. Plastic ball mill jars can be excellent static generators in operation-

-------------------------------

I hope you read all that and thought about it a bit. Now for the part you are actually interested in.

After some years of experience, I used a slight modification of the CIA technique many of you are using. I usually made a 1 kilo batch (2.2 lb.)

Waltham Abbey ratios are 75% Potassium nitrate : 15% charcoal : 10% Sulfur. Alcohol I used was (cheap!) hardware or paint store denatured ethanol, it's less than 5% water.

Urine is not needed in processing. Trust me on that, the oldest historical references called for bizarre sympathetic magic type ingredients, such as obtaining the urine of a wine drinking bishop to corn powder with. No modern manufacturer does this...

See the references listed below to learn about charcoal, BBQ briquettes do not work very well.

Ball mill just the charcoal and Sulfur together until flour fine. Ball milling the complete mix (with the nitrate) is not necessary, requires a larger mill and is probably the most dangerous method in modern use- A ball mill explosion is a shrapnel bomb. It works, and produces good powder with the additional steps of compressing the mill dust and then breaking up slabs- but then you'll need a hydraulic press and a way to break up the china plate hard pressed slabs or pucks of powder. If you want harder grains, a little dextrin or red gum (2-3% additional at most) added to the fuel mix with the CIA method will give you that, and not slow down the powder appreciably.

Damp the charcoal/Sulfur mix with enough cheap paint store denatured alcohol (NOT the 30% water:70% isopropyl from the drug store!) to make it appear wet, but not so much that it runs out if you grab a handful and squeeze. Don't worry too much if you overdo it, alcohol dries out of the powder easily. Water not so quickly... I used a large stainless steel mixing bowl to hold the fuel/alcohol mix. It needs to be several times the volume of your finished powder-

Dissolve the Potassium nitrate in the minimum amount possible of boiling water. 1 liter of boiling water will dissolve 2,460 grams of Potassium nitrate. Do the math and don't over do the water. Understand that the saturated solution can be HOTTER than the boiling point of pure water, it will scald you very badly if you are careless. Waterproof kitchen mitts are a good thing to wear while handling the hot solution & doing the mixing. I used a large Pyrex measuring cup in a microwave to dissolve nitrate, with a saucer over the top to prevent spatters- But I wasn't married at the time.

*Making BP in HER kitchen is known to be a hazard to YOUR health... By the way, a plastic microwave oven interior coated with dried out Potassium nitrate from the spatters burns quite well. Smells just awful too.

Have a cheap electric hand mixer you got from a yard sale (NOT her mixer!) on hand. I covered all the vents with duct tape to keep alcohol vapors/black powder dust out of the motor.

Rapidly dump the hot water with saturated solution of nitrate into the alcohol damped charcoal and Sulfur mix while beating with the mixer. The alcohol crystalizes the nitrate out of solution FAST, as very tiny crystals that will actually be INSIDE the particles of fuel... The whole mass will quickly become a slightly damp solid IF you have used the absolute minimum of water and alcohol. You will NOT need to squeeze any liquid out if you did this correctly.

*Much of the alcohol will boil out of the mix in your face while you do the mixing- Did I mention you shouldn't be indoors?

*Believe it or not, as soon as you've mixed the dissolved nitrate into the charcoal & Sulfur the powder will BURN, regardless of it being still wet. Take a little bit of the wet powder out and go to a safe distance to light it and prove this to yourself. Don't burn your knuckles, it will burn FAST.

Squeeze the powder into a ball and grate through a coarse screen onto a tray lined with grocery bag Kraft paper in thin layer. Dry in a warm place with a fan blowing over it, I suggest NOT in direct sunlight. Granulate through a coarse screen, sieve the dried grains to select desired mesh sizes.

Here's some information you may find useful or interesting. I suggest you actually buy the Von Maltitz and Sponenburgh books as these are living authors who deserve something for their efforts. If you're broke or don't care, you can download these from the net for free- Tenney Davis has passed on (and is out of copyright), the US Gov't. will be happy you bothered to download (and follow!) the federal explosives laws.

Getting Legal:

http://www.accelix.com/atf/

BATFE "Orange Book" (Federal Explosives Laws & Regulations):

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

Ian Von Maltitz, Black Powder Manufacturing, Testing & Optimizing:

http://pyrotechnic.narod.ru/Black_Powder.pdf

Sponenburgh, Ball Milling Theory and Practice:

http://www.rocketsaway.com/pyrotechnics_ball_mill_theory_sponenburgh.pdf

Tenney Davis, Chemistry of Powder and Explosives:*

http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_chemistry_of_powder_and_explosives.pdf

62chevy

02-04-2014, 01:31 PM

I follow the post and don't even make my own but may someday when a BP rifle comes to the house.

trooperdan

02-04-2014, 03:38 PM

Bert, so glad you took the substantial amount of time to make this post! I am a licensed pyro tech in NC, an ex-military EOD guy and handling black powder/fireworks is way more dangerous that handling high explosives! I second the idea to leave out the urine, adds nothing but smell. First rate hardwood charcoal is a requirement for sure! And a legal magazine for storage IS a requirement, a manufacturing license is NOT required if you make BP for yourself, store it legally and don't distribute it. That said, I think it is still prudent to get the manufacturing permit and have a legal magazine for storage... just makes me sleep easier! :)

Bert2368

02-04-2014, 03:47 PM

Glad you liked-

The only hard wood charcoals I found to make fast powder were fruit woods- Apple, peach, cherry. Some Oak charcoals were good for BP rocket fuel where you want to have a pretty spark tail and not blow up the rocket from too fast a fuel.

Black alder is a weed tree in the upper Midwest. It's called "buckthorn" here for some reason. Makes great charcoal for BP.

Willows all work well for BP, as does grape vine. GOEX used to use maple?! DuPont used willow.

Red cedar works surprisingly well too. White pine is good for making sparks with fireworks stars, not so good for strong powder.

Bert2368

02-05-2014, 11:51 AM

A few more things about protective gear:

A dust mask is a darn good idea. The charcoal goes up your nose and will give you black boogers for a couple of days... The nitrate and Sulfur aren't good for your sinuses and lungs either.

I assumed everyone has the sense to wear at least a good set of goggles while handling chemicals? In case you didn't think of that, by all means protect your eyes. If I'm working with a big pile of powder or fireworks composition, I would have a clear full face shield AND goggles.

A leather welder's apron, same kind you wear while casting is a nice thing- You DO wear a leather apron while casting, right? You will probably be facing the source of a fireball, every bit helps. Plus it keeps your front from being impregnated with very flammable dust...

I mentioned wearing natural (non static generating non MELTING!) materials above:

Wear no synthetic materials while handling explosives. These may generate static electricity, and having melted plastic all over your 2nd and 3rd degree burns will complicate your treatment in the burn ward. Choose Cotton, wool, leather. None of these continue to burn with a flame after the flame source is removed.

To be clearer: Long sleeved cotton top and bottom. A long sleeved welder's heavy cotton shirt, a T-shirt, and a bandana to protect your neck above the collar. Blue jeans or heavy cotton work pants (Carharts are nice). Boots, not tennis shoes. WASH THE CLOTHES IMMEDIATELY WHEN DONE. They are a fire hazard, you could get a surprise later if you don't.

But what about GLOVES? Shouldn't you wear plastic/rubber gloves, you're handling chemicals! Well, no. If you're working with hands in a pile of fireworks mixture or powder that ignites, those gloves will melt onto your hands in a jiffy.

The black powder ingredients are only mildly toxic, they don't absorb through your skin in any meaningful amount. For handling the boiling hot nitrate solutions, waterproof oven mitts will keep you safe if you slop hot solution on your hands. Call a commercial kitchen supply company if you can't find them at a store near you. For working with your hands in a pile of dry powder, thin suede gloves. They'll actually keep the heat of a flash fire away from your skin long enough to matter, and they never melt onto you. After use, wash them while still on your hands with saddle soap and rinse. Then lather them up a second time but don't rinse, take them off and let them dry with the soap on them. That way you can get your hands into them again...

phantom15

02-06-2014, 04:16 AM

This place is unreal.......too many good ideas and not enough time to play.....

super6

02-09-2014, 03:51 PM

Bert2368, The safety considerations were on the money, You cannot outrun a fireball.One way or another we will educate.

omgb

02-09-2014, 04:16 PM

That's a lot of danger to rub up against just to save a few $$ per pound. If BP ever is taken away from us I might be tempted to try and make up but until then, I'll let the pros take all of the risk.

Whiterabbit

02-10-2014, 05:18 PM

That's a lot of danger to rub up against just to save a few $$ per pound.

Reloading is a lot of danger comparatively just to save a few $$ per round. Same with casting. We're all adults here.

Rustyleee

02-10-2014, 05:26 PM

Thanks for posting Atom.

Randy C

02-12-2014, 10:19 PM

:coffeecom

Desertbuck

02-15-2014, 02:55 AM

Random thought came to my mind today while making a 1/2lb batch. As I separated the powder from the lead ball boolit tumbling media a little bit of black dust floats into the air as always. Hummm I thought lead boolits, I wander if theres ultra fine lead in the dust I should be worried about! What do you guys think?

Whiterabbit

02-15-2014, 02:58 AM

SciFiJim

02-15-2014, 03:22 AM

what do I THINK? I think if you have air-float atomized black powder floating in the air in front of your face, with or without lead particles attached, lead exposure is the LAST thing I would be worried about with respect to that cloud!

I haven't made any, but how can you separate the lead ball from the powder without creating dust? Would dampening the powder work? If so, with what? Distilled water, alcohol?

Whiterabbit

02-15-2014, 03:29 AM

dunno. all I am saying is I would have zero concern about lead poisoning when I have a cloud of explosive floating around between my chest and face.

Here's a story. During safety training when I got my first job, we were talking about hazardous gasses. Specifically, Silane, which is pyrophoric. (if you don't know what pyrophoric means, it means combusts in the presence of air, no need for a spark or other ignition source. You release it, and it just burns.) I noticed it was rated as a toxic gas too, so like the wet-behind-the-ear I was, I raised my hand and said "I see silane is toxic, why aren't we having any discussion about that?" The answer was "because by the time we care about the toxicity of silane gas, we've already been blown through the concrete wall of the gas bunker."

It was a lesson in prioritizing hazards.

Desertbuck

02-15-2014, 03:30 AM

Im not talkin about a cloud of dust. I add about 2 tbs of water to the the drum to dampen the mix to keep static at bay, to keep the dust cloud from ever forming, and some what damp powder is safer to mill.
But you always have SOME dust when its moved from mill to a bowl for further dampening for processing into pucks. You can hardly see it but when light hits at the perfect angle you can.

Bert2368

02-24-2014, 05:47 PM

Even water dropped Lead alloy media wears away in regular use. Yes, the Lead ends up in your BP, and in your lungs when you breathe the smoke. Not too much at any one time maybe, but I'd rather not breathe it. For some OTHER kinds of pyrotechnic mixtures, the Lead contamination could degrade colors or cause unwanted chemical reactions, up to and including KABOOOM!

Back when I made BP rather than buying it by the (insert obscenely large ammount here), my solution was to ballmill only the charcoal, Sulfur and any extra binders such as dextrin or redgum. The Potassium nitrate was only added later in a saturated, boiling hot water solution after the milling process.

The ball mill media I used very hard 1"x1" cylinders made from ceramic (Alumina). It lasted pretty much forever for my uses- Sparking ball mill media? Maybe! Static electricity in the mill jar? Quite definitely, it made the hair on your arms stand up when the plastic mill jar was nearby. Didn't matter because there was never an oxidizer in the mix while milling.

As far as the dust cloud, work outside! ESPECIALLY if it's dust from finished powder! Don't work powder if it's dry/cold enough for static electricity. Wear a dust mask. Clean up religiously after.

One more time:

Making powder is DANGEROUS!

All commercial powder mills are built with the EXPECTATION THEY WILL BLOW UP. Because they will, if used long enough.

Look at the history of the DuPont family. Notice all the dead (mangement level!) people, and blown up mills?

http://www.historypin.com/attach/uid32851/tours/view/id/945/title/Explosions%20in%20the%20DuPont%20Company%20Black%2 0Powder%20Yards

Google the names of any black powder maker, historical or modern along with "explosion", "deaths", etc. You will find plenty.

After Du Pont sold the last powder mill in the USA to GOEX, there were a series of problems. A lot of you know about the GOEX production moving out of PA, then moving again- The meaty part starts at page 10.

http://www.laflinandrand.com/madmonk/history.pdf

This link is instructive on how NOT to run a BP manufacturing operation.
Never hurry. Never cut corners. Don't count on making tons of money.

Desertbuck

02-28-2014, 02:30 PM

Quote(Back when I made BP rather than buying it by the (insert obscenely large ammount here), my solution was to ballmill only the charcoal, Sulfur and any extra binders such as dextrin or redgum. The Potassium nitrate was only added later in a saturated, boiling hot water solution after the milling process.)Quote

I am giving this method a try I have one question though can you allow the slurry to dry sufficiently for a couple of days to allow you to corn or screen it?
I have never tried the cia method it seems like it's probably the safest way to make gunpowder with all your ingredients being saturated with water but I want to avoid using alcohol & losing potassium nitrate from filtering it through a rag to remove excess moisture.

Thank for the information Bert2368 my goal is to do this with as much safety as I possibly can. And I do understand no matter what, it comes with a risk and has its dangers.

ofitg

02-28-2014, 03:00 PM

I am giving this method a try I have one question though can you allow the slurry to dry sufficiently for a couple of days to allow you to corn or screen it?
I have never tried the cia method it seems like it's probably the safest way to make gunpowder with all your ingredients being saturated with water but I want to avoid using alcohol & losing potassium nitrate from filtering it through a rag to remove excess moisture.

.

Desertbuck, if you have a copy of VanMaltitz's book, Blackpowder Manufacturing, Testing & Optimizing, he describes a precipitation method used by the Chinese over a thousand years ago - no alcohol, just enough boiling water water to dissolve the KNO3 - as the "soup" cools down to room temperature, within seconds it turns into a sludge (eg, ketchup consistency). No need to squeeze the water out, just let the sludge dry.

Desertbuck

02-28-2014, 03:04 PM

Thank you very much for the fast reply ofitg. No unfortunately I do not have a copy VanMaltitz's book slowly gathering all the information. Replies: like this are much appreciated thank you I will keep an eye out for that book so sounds like something I should get.

Whiterabbit

02-28-2014, 03:55 PM

Desertbuck, if you have a copy of VanMaltitz's book, Blackpowder Manufacturing, Testing & Optimizing, he describes a precipitation method used by the Chinese over a thousand years ago - no alcohol, just enough boiling water water to dissolve the KNO3 - as the "soup" cools down to room temperature, within seconds it turns into a sludge (eg, ketchup consistency). No need to squeeze the water out, just let the sludge dry.

Does this method eliminate the need to compression mold a cake? Or is that step still needed?

trooperdan

02-28-2014, 04:44 PM

DesertBuck, don't be too confident about the powder when it is wet, it will still burn! In fact damp powder seems to burn faster than dry almost!

ofitg

03-01-2014, 03:19 AM

Does this method eliminate the need to compression mold a cake? Or is that step still needed?

The powder is not dense, it's similar to pre-1800 factory powder, kind of soft and crumbly. If you want to duplicate post-1800 factory powder, with dense & hard little granules, the compression step is still needed.

super6

03-02-2014, 04:18 PM

DesertBuck, I have a copy I will gladly sell you. ( VanMaltitz's) spell (Ian von Maltitz) Make me an offer!

Desertbuck

03-02-2014, 05:00 PM

[QUOTE=super6;2663327]DesertBuck, I have a copy I will gladly sell you. ( VanMaltitz's) spell (lan von Maltitz) Make me an offer!

Thank you but I was given a digital copy.

super6

03-02-2014, 06:24 PM

Ian made money...?

SciFiJim

03-02-2014, 06:55 PM

Thank you but I was given a digital copy.

Google the title. It is freely available online as a .pdf

Whiterabbit

03-06-2014, 01:49 PM

The powder is not dense, it's similar to pre-1800 factory powder, kind of soft and crumbly. If you want to duplicate post-1800 factory powder, with dense & hard little granules, the compression step is still needed.

What are the ramifications of not compressing? Is there a modern equivalence? 3F? 2F?

For us muzzleloaders, can we skip compression and just adjust the volume of the charge till we get the same bullet speed as we developed for accuracy with commercial powder?

--------------------

My goal is to simplify the process as much as possible. If I can buy the $45 kit from skylighter and a ball mill from harbor freight, add my own hardcast roundballs, a kitchen screen, and have enough material and tooling to make 1/4 or 1/3 lb batches of Holy Black for my muzzleloader, I'll be on cloud 9. skipping compression, especially if it makes "corning" difficult, is something I wouldn't mind simplifying/eliminating.

But only if a viable option.

-------------------

Looks like the skylighter method uses dextrin as a binder, I just add hot water and go. Great! But it means I need screens, I suppose. They are expensive from skylighter! Any source for less expensive 20 and 40 or 50 mesh screens? (3F)

-------------------

And since I am asking 20 questions, I may as well do this one: IF I consider the precipitation method via hot water, so I can avoid ball milling the KNO3, is the "ball milling" portion considered "safe"? In other words, can I run large batches in the ball mill, or mill many batches of the pre-KNO3 mix and store that, ready to be mixed with the KNO3 in water? Allowing me to focus on safety only once I start involving the KNO3?

in other words again, if I ball mill without KNO3, can I ball mill in my garage?

SSGOldfart

03-06-2014, 01:58 PM

yep good ideal "I think we have a sticky here. ":grin:

Desertbuck

03-07-2014, 12:51 PM

Well my boiled meal powder finally got dry enough to make pucks, I made one! Very disappointing, it crumbled very easily and I could see very big crystals of potassium nitrate. Back to the drawing board.
Just a refresher as to what my intention by changing my methods is. One safety, two to minimize lead dust contaminationon. To cut back on the lead contamination, I am going to take 9mm casings fill them with lead and use them as my grinding tumbling media. Mill charcoal sulfur, potassium nitrate separately (for safety) till they are a fine powder, then I might try mixing the three using wooden balls (for safety) as the tumbling media for short time. Than corn the meal powder as normal.

Desertbuck

03-07-2014, 01:07 PM

What are the ramifications of not compressing? Is there a modern equivalence? 3F? 2F?

For us muzzleloaders, can we skip compression and just adjust the volume of the charge till we get the same bullet speed as we developed for accuracy with commercial powder?

--------------------

My goal is to simplify the process as much as possible. If I can buy the $45 kit from skylighter and a ball mill from harbor freight, add my own hardcast roundballs, a kitchen screen, and have enough material and tooling to make 1/4 or 1/3 lb batches of Holy Black for my muzzleloader, I'll be on cloud 9. skipping compression, especially if it makes "corning" difficult, is something I wouldn't mind simplifying/eliminating.

But only if a viable option.

-------------------

Looks like the skylighter method uses dextrin as a binder, I just add hot water and go. Great! But it means I need screens, I suppose. They are expensive from skylighter! Any source for less expensive 20 and 40 or 50 mesh screens? (3F)

-------------------

And since I am asking 20 questions, I may as well do this one: IF I consider the precipitation method via hot water, so I can avoid ball milling the KNO3, is the "ball milling" portion considered "safe"? In other words, can I run large batches in the ball mill, or mill many batches of the pre-KNO3 mix and store that, ready to be mixed with the KNO3 in water? Allowing me to focus on safety only once I start involving the KNO3?

in other words again, if I ball mill without KNO3, can I ball mill in my garage?

Yes screened powder will work just fine in muzzle loaders, however you are going to find that you have to use a lot of it volume wise anyhow to match the velocities you get with factory powder.
And yes it is safer to mill the ingredients separately. I personally don't see a problem doing that in your garage so long as you use common sense! But making your own gun powder is never %100 safe! You are always taking a risk! But if you have taken the time to educate yourself with a good grasp on what you are dealing with you should be fine. Also pay attention very close attention to that little voice in the back of your mind, if it doesn't feel right stop what you're doing!!! And change what you are doing until that little voice is happy.

ole single shooter

03-15-2014, 07:49 PM

I made my first batch of meal powder explicitly following directions here before I found this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Fn12MnZcs The burn rate looked good so I started a test with a 45cal long rifle using 40 grain load under a lead ball . The report was sharp and crisp and a nice nudge for the shoulder .I only had time for two more shots at 50 grains and 60 grains. I am very satisfied so far. I'll still work my way up a bit more. I am making a trip to a big box with the son tmw and may get a crono .
Has anyone used the meal powder in larger calibers? I have a 50 , 54 ,and a 20 gauge trade gun with Curly Gostomaskie's Northwest hardware. I have some concern that the meal powder might compress more than desirable , especially for the .54 and .600 bore. Any input would be appreciated. I do like the well explained cook method here and may try it in the future.

wrongway

03-18-2014, 07:50 PM

Happy Birthday DesertBuck

Lee

03-18-2014, 08:00 PM

Just a thought, if not already mentioned. The ladies hobby "quilting" plastic mesh might perhaps be a perfect screen material for the wet powder screening.
Just sayin ......

Whiterabbit

03-18-2014, 10:24 PM

well, I just found that grainger sells mesh in every size for $5 a 12x12 sheet from 4mesh to 200+ mesh. In stainless steel.

So, I'll probably go with that.

Whiterabbit

03-18-2014, 10:27 PM

Yes screened powder will work just fine in muzzle loaders, however you are going to find that you have to use a lot of it volume wise anyhow to match the velocities you get with factory powder.
And yes it is safer to mill the ingredients separately. I personally don't see a problem doing that in your garage so long as you use common sense! But making your own gun powder is never %100 safe! You are always taking a risk! But if you have taken the time to educate yourself with a good grasp on what you are dealing with you should be fine. Also pay attention very close attention to that little voice in the back of your mind, if it doesn't feel right stop what you're doing!!! And change what you are doing until that little voice is happy.

Then I have one last dumb question. Would it not be a reasonable idea then, to screen tighter? rather than screening to 20 mesh to make 3F, screen at 30 mesh to make smaller pieces. This should increase the mass of powder for a measured velocity. Or in short, allow me to decrease the volume of powder measured needed to match velocity with factory powder.

Yes? or no?

benellinut

03-18-2014, 11:13 PM

You guys may already know about this website, they sell all kinds of supplies to make BP and fireworks. They have some screens sheets and pre-made sifters, prices seem high to me but then this is all new to me.
http://www.skylighter.com/mall/tools.asp

Desertbuck

03-19-2014, 12:07 AM

Then I have one last dumb question. Would it not be a reasonable idea then, to screen tighter? rather than screening to 20 mesh to make 3F, screen at 30 mesh to make smaller pieces. This should increase the mass of powder for a measured velocity. Or in short, allow me to decrease the volume of powder measured needed to match velocity with factory powder.

Yes? or no?

The problem I think you may run into with that small of a grain is it may burn really dirty. I have never screened powder that small my self.

Just Duke

03-23-2014, 02:10 PM

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=101;t=20596

Just Duke

03-23-2014, 02:11 PM

http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

Just Duke

03-23-2014, 02:13 PM

http://www.skylighter.com/making-black-powder.html?utm_content=A&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=BPTIMES2

psychicrhino

04-14-2014, 01:55 AM

Great read. Thanks for the info.

woodbutcher

04-18-2014, 12:36 AM

:lol:Well,another excellent thread.HOWEVER,if I tried this my wife would run me down the road.Her Father tried to make black powder ONE TIME.HE blew up his tractor shed.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

dbeerman2000

04-24-2014, 06:45 PM

I have read this post and skimmed through it again, so if I missed it, my apologies for asking again: can this be used for reloading ammo? And how would this be accomplished (as far as pressure and how much to use)?

David

mallen

11-13-2014, 09:13 PM

dumb question here, is this recipe for corrosive or non corrosive bp?

Whiterabbit

11-13-2014, 10:08 PM

Not a dumb question at all. I keep my non-corrosive BP recipe next to my recipe for dehydrated water and design sheets for submarine screen doors.

The recipes here will still end up hydroscopic (hygroscopic?) after burning, and thus are corrosive.

mallen

11-13-2014, 11:41 PM

sarcasm noted.

whats the difference between typical black powder, and the stuff the store sells saying "non corrosive"?

Whiterabbit

11-14-2014, 01:21 AM

sulphur. what makes BP particularly hydroscopic. But I haven't heard anyone confirm a sulphur-free BP is truly non-hydroscopic. Possible exception of BH209, but not too many users of that powder. All the others, everyone I talk to say it still attracts water.

waksupi

11-14-2014, 01:28 AM

Whiterabbit

11-14-2014, 01:43 AM

well, that kinda makes it impossible to make non corrosive BP, doesn't it?

mallen

11-14-2014, 11:00 AM

ok. so. non sulfur is, less corrosive, then?
is there a recipe for non sulfur BP?

Whiterabbit

11-14-2014, 03:59 PM

http://www.oocities.org/wdb_0wnz_j00/bp_top.html

I strongly suggest you do not consider this the only source. "I hear" there are plenty of issues running without sulphur, as it helps reduce ignition temperature.

mallen

11-14-2014, 10:07 PM

Sulphurless powders

Lancaster
Noble
Noble
Thomas

name
sulphurless powder
sulphurless powder
sulphurless powder
(stoichiometric)
sulphurless powder
SFG.12

Potassium nitrate
70.5
80
87.1
70

Charcoal
29.5
20
12.9
30

so, seems like this is what i want to do. Ill have to do some reading to see what issues I may have. Is the process in making it the same, just one less ingredient?

Linstrum

11-25-2014, 02:41 AM

Black powder made without sulphur is in the class of "pulver" powders that include "ammonpulver", a highly effective but difficult to store primitive smokeless propellent that is covered in a few semi-scholarly posts here at Cast Boolits. Do a search for "ammonpulver", it is an interesting footnote in history.

Waksupi is correct, it is the potassium nitrate that makes black powder hygroscopic, or damp. Elemental sulfur, the form that sulfur is in in black powder, is for all practical purposes insoluble in water.

I am surprised no one covered ash content of the charcoal, ash is a real powder-killer. Charcoal is easily tested for its ash content by burning a known weight and then weighing the remaining ash. I have found willow charcoal with 15% silica ash, 1/7 of its weight in inert useless residue that slows combustion! Woods that work well for powder charcoal are European willow (not native in North America so it is not found here); most varieties of grape vine (Goex may use grape but not sure); cottonwood - The Confederate States made powder equivalent to Du Pont using cottonwood, and it grows all over western, southwestern, and southern North America; avocado - you've got it made if you live in Florida, southeast Texas, or Southern California; and just about any other light open grain wood. Oak, walnut, mahogany, and the other dense hardwoods are the worst. THE KEY FOR WOOD IS LIGHT WEIGHT WITH AN OPEN GRAIN, AND CHECK FOR THE ASH CONTENT OF ITS CHARCOAL, IT SHOULD BE LESS THAT 4%. Compensate for the ash when you make your powder, if the charcoal has 4% ash that means you only have 96/100 of the charcoal called for, so increase the charcoal by adding 1.04166667 times the amount called for (1 divided by 96%).

I started making my own black powder back in 1965 and never had any trouble because I followed the safety rules and used safety equipment, like no iron or steel tools that spark when dropped or struck, or power tools. Have fun!

rl 1217

mallen

11-25-2014, 11:29 PM

0«--- this is my head

¯^«----- this is where what you said went over my head

Bentracin

12-07-2014, 07:43 AM

I think it's very interesting how the molecules stick together ,, the Kno3,charcoal and sulfer to form something so powerful like the BP.

mallen

12-07-2014, 02:39 PM

still not sure what to do to make bp non corrosive

waksupi

12-07-2014, 04:14 PM

still not sure what to do to make bp non corrosive

Once you discover that, and tell the world, your name will be legend. People will bow their heads in reverence when your name is spoken, and young children will be taught about you in schools. You will be on the pedestal alongside Browning, Maxim, and Colt.
[smilie=w: :bigsmyl2:

Whiterabbit

12-07-2014, 06:30 PM

I thought BH 209 was non corrosive. I'd tell you from experience, but I'm not willing to pay $60/lb or whatever price they are charging these days!

mallen

12-08-2014, 01:25 AM

Once you discover that, and tell the world, your name will be legend. People will bow their heads in reverence when your name is spoken, and young children will be taught about you in schools. You will be on the pedestal alongside Browning, Maxim, and Colt.
[smilie=w: :bigsmyl2:
im not sure its quite all that big, i mean, you can buy it in the store.

some say the non sulfur based powders are non corrosive. but seems noone can tell me definitivly

DeputyDog25

09-16-2015, 06:27 AM

Very good reading and very interesting. Although I won't be trying this anytime soon, I appreciate the time you took to write the article. I will definitely bookmark it and come back to it in the future and give it a try.

SMLESteve

04-18-2016, 03:53 PM

Well looks like I'll be busy soon. Cast boolits and homemade BP to hunt? Yes please!

Ianagos

09-25-2016, 03:58 PM

was just reading this and im sure the op is gone but i make my own black powder. the method he described would work decent but with proper equipment and whatnot you can produce black powder equal to or better than commercial geox. when i make it i ball mill it and then bind it with a 3% dextrin (all percent are by weight) after that its wet with 10% water and pressed into puck about 2" round by 1/4" thick on a hydraulic press. then allow it to dry and break it up and screen through proper screens for different grades. now the pressing and what not is not that important it just creates a uniform grain what is really important is the ball milling. if i have time when im on leave ill try to do a write-up on the process. also using willow as the op stated is better but other woods can suffice. also somebody mentioned pure graphite but personally ive never tried it i dont think it would work. also ive seen some crazy formulas for people who cant get sulfer but mot of them sound obscene like using rust and whatnot. i dont remember the ratio off the top of my head but just leaving sulfur out and using charcoal and potassium nitrate creates a powder almost as fast just slightly harder to light. and for those wondering it costs me about $3 a pound to make the black powder. but it is allot of labor throughout making charcoal, milling, and pressing but most of it is just waiting time. feel free to pm me but i prefer email if you need any help or suggestions.

T_McD

11-02-2016, 12:20 PM

Disclaimer: I did not read the entire thread!

I too have made black powder, but I did so in what I thought to be the easiest/cheapest way possible to see if it was feasible. There are great YouTube videos if you care to look, so I will not go into great detail.

I will begin by saying I only do small batches because I do not use large amounts of blackpowder and it limits potential damage if something goes wrong (unlikely but I don't like to gamble).

First make charcoal - I used a holiday popcorn tin and sawdust of no particular wood variety, but most likely cheap pine from plywood and 2x4's. Simply poke holes in the lid and put over a fire. Light the gas escaping from the holes, and when it goes out, your done. Pull it out and let it cool completely. I flipped it on its lid to cover the holes, so oxygen would not ignite the charcoal and turn it to ash.

Next get some potassium nitrate (KNO3). Lowe's stump remover is what I used, double check the msds to make sure your brand is KNO3.

In separate containers, grind the two ingredients into a fine powder. A cheap rock tumbler is what I used.

Next combine the ingredients, I used an 80/20 mix of KNO3 to charcoal. You may notice I have omitted sulfur. I did this for three reasons, 1) I did not want a lot of smoke 2) I did not want to buy sulfur 3) it is unneeded if your ignition temp is high enough, 209 primers will easily ignite this mix.

I again used a rock tumbler, and this is where the greatest danger of auto-ignition comes in. I used lead balls to mix the two powders - lead will not spark. I also put the rock tumbler on an extension cord so if things went wrong, no one was around to get hurt. After tumbling for a few hours, I unplugged the extension cord and let things settle for a few minutes, then opened the container wearing an apron, welding gloves, and a face shield.

The next step is to wet the powder until it is a hard clay-like consistency and pressed/grated it through an old window screen. Set the granules out to dry, then store it a safe place.

Since I did not compress it at all, this powder is probably only useful for cannon or rifle where space is not a concern. Also, you will need to weigh your desired charge, and note the volume - thereafter you can use that volumetric measurement in loading.

All in all, the process is quite easy and much cheaper than commercial black powder (which I could not find, hence my journey in homemade).