If You Were Gonna............

[mike in co]

build a cast boolit rifle with a goal to accuracy only...no hunting....just punching paper......maybe steel........short range.....100/200 yd

what caliber would it be.....

and what CAST bullet would you shoot....

???
i dont want a br gun, but a very accurate centrerfire cast boolit shooter....


i have actions just waiting to be built into tack drivers.....


thanks
mike

[PatMarlin]

358 Winchester.. :mrgreen:

[dk17hmr]

I would build a 308 on a long action, I would shoot either my ideal 311413 or my 308329, both of these bullet have given great groups with my Savage 340 30-30 and my Springfield 1903 30-06.

[Bass Ackward]

If you don't want a heavy gun and you want to punch paper, then bullet weight is a negative. If you want a conventional weight sporter, then the heaviest barrel has the smallest hole through it. After mulling this over and over I built a 223. Probably should have been a 222. But the bore diameter was the key.

Economical to load and shoot .... often. Don't need a bed sheet for a patch. Other bullets are still economical. Light recoiling. Can get some velocity up so that trajectory isn't a scope adjusting requirement. The only negative for you may be wind. I don't really have that problem except the cold winter months.

[waksupi]

Doug, why would you want to build a .308 on a long action for? My .358 is on a short action, and there is lotsa extra magazine lenght to spare.

I'd probably go with a .30 bore, personally, or even a 6.5, since you can pick your twist.

[dk17hmr]

I am a big fan of the Remington 700 BDL, I also like long actions. So manly so you can go with a really long bullet. But then again I would build a single shot so a normal shot action would be fine.

[felix]

Mike, what power of a scope do you intend to shoot? High power scopes demand a low recoiling operation as per BA's memo. ... felix

[mike in co]

I'M not expecting that recoil will be an issue. tho you may open my eyes. gun would start life in a milsurplus stock and then move to an aftermarket wood /varmiter stock.
yes we can pick a reamer and bbl wieght, length, and twist
98 action, so round length should not be an issue....

i have plenty of scopes...leupolds on down, 36x and down.


lets get to a cartridge and then "tune" it...length, twist, throat...

thanks
mike

[mike in co]

If you don't want a heavy gun and you want to punch paper, then bullet weight is a negative. If you want a conventional weight sporter, then the heaviest barrel has the smallest hole through it. After mulling this over and over I built a 223. Probably should have been a 222. But the bore diameter was the key.

Economical to load and shoot .... often. Don't need a bed sheet for a patch. Other bullets are still economical. Light recoiling. Can get some velocity up so that trajectory isn't a scope adjusting requirement. The only negative for you may be wind. I don't really have that problem except the cold winter months.
BA,
a cast boolit 223/222 ??? really ???

tell me more
what did u build ?/twist ?? who does it shoot ??

i thought 22 cast boolits were a pain ??

i'm always willing to listen....

[9.3X62AL]

Mike--

It would be tough to argue against either the 308 or the 30-06 for paper punching with castings in a bolter. If single-shots were on the agenda, the 30-30, 38-55, or 45-70 suggest themselves strongly. I don't have much time in grade with the 223 to offer info with, but that will be changing after deer season.

[sundog]

If it were a 30 cal then a 12 or 13 twist .308. The 311299 does purdy well. 22? 14 twist in .222, maybe .223. The Ly 225646 and the 22 Bator both work good. A 14 twist in 35 Whelen does right nice with the 358009! Just thinking out loud. sundog

[felix]

Might consider the new fangled 270 with 100-120 grainers. But, I think the new military cartridge uses a smaller case head that won't work with what you have. So, neck down the 30 BR case, which is about like the 30-30 case in volume. The recoil would be like the 22-250 full tilt, a might much for more than 20 rounds with a high power scope. The idea is to SEE the boolit hit the target through the scope. This is where the fun comes in when shooting for some length of time in one location. ... felix

[PatMarlin]

I was just gonna post bout' the 270.

I've got the RCBS mold spire point I think it's 150gr. Never used it Anyone ever shoot cast and the 270, and what kind of loads?

Can this caliber be used as an accurate cast boolit paper puncher? I got a nice FN commercial I want to make into a heavy bench shooter.

[felix]

The 270 winchester is too large of a case for a fun cast gun. The boolit you have is meant for the standard 10 twist, and it will shoot fairly well after ******* around with loads. Not worth the hassle. Need a much smaller case and a much slower twist. ... felix

[Bullshop]

Sundog
I see you speaking highly of the 22 Bator as does Felix and others. In fact I havnt read a bad report on it. Thats why I just cant understand why it wont work good for me. I have tried it in half a dosen different rifles and still just cant seem to get it to do well. I have pretty much given up on it. I dont understand the why it just had me scratching my head in wonder and unable to solve it.
I am now thinking I may eliminate the gas check by shortening the blocks. Not that the boolit is too long cuz its not, its shorter than others that work good for me. Just that I am trying to aquire some 22 designs in PB. I had Buckshot shorten one of the Lyman RN that was about 60gn now about 50gn and I realy like it. It was a bit too long at 60gn for some barrels at moderate velocity but now shoots good from all my rifles even at velocities aproaching 1800 fps.
To stay on topic I guess I have expressed my feeling that the 22's offer the most fun for the money but if I were to build a rifle for comp. and expect to be a serious threat my caliber choice would begin at 30.
BIC/BS

[buck1]

I would lean toward the 308 but if starting from scratch the 3040 had a much longer neck.

[PatMarlin]

The 270 winchester is too large of a case for a fun cast gun. The boolit you have is meant for the standard 10 twist, and it will shoot fairly well after ******* around with loads. Not worth the hassle. Need a much smaller case and a much slower twist. ... felix


What would be a good economical re-chamber cal for me Felix, that would be a good cast shooter?

[felix]

Dan, I agree, but I would pick a 323 caliber for a boolit BR gun for real, but Mike stated he wanted no part of that kind of beast, and I don't blame him. They require way too much work to take out unless you are completely stationary and are planning to spend several hours there. ... felix

[felix]

What do you have which is appropriate, Pat? ... felix

[Bullshop]

oops, guess I done it again. The man with the incredable shrinking memory.
BIC/BS

[PatMarlin]

I was thinking of a caliber change for my .270.

[castalott]

How about a 357 mag necked down to 30?.....I've read some about Paco Kelly's 30/357 and would like to know a lot more....Brass would be cheap..it is the barrel and dies that would cost...

But the custom barrel would not be so bad as you could design the dimensions yourself. I would like to have Enfield 5 lands/ grooves....equal size lands and grooves and a touch on the tight side...say .307/.299. I would also like a chamber made for the bullets I want to shoot. This is completely backwards from our normal idea of making bullets to fit the gun.

This cartridge lends itself more to break opens than boltguns though.

It won't be a powerhouse...but you don't want one either....

[felix]

Pat, if you have a working gun and you like it as is, don't change it. Get some 270 experience first by using real boolits before making a decision to change. You got the boolit, so now look for some slower powder. 44 grains of 860 is the load I got from Grumble several years ago using that boolit. Shot good enough for 150 yard beer cans. However, the case is not full enough of that powder to be completely safe. Need to work up some single base powder loads, not slower than 4064/4895. ... felix

[felix]

Keep in mind the cost of brass should not enter the equation for any kind of custom gun, especially one to fit a certain boolit. Why? The cases will NEVER wear out! ... felix

[sundog]

..., or .32 Miller Short. Seems to be popular with the single shot fellers. And it does shoot very well out to 200. sundog

[Bass Ackward]

BA,
a cast boolit 223/222 ??? really ???

tell me more
what did u build ?/twist ?? who does it shoot ??

i thought 22 cast boolits were a pain ??

i'm always willing to listen....


Mike,

I never said that 22 caliber cast bullets were easy. But if that turns out to be a problem, then turf off the molding and sizing job to someone else like Bullshop Dan. That guy is a masocist at heart and just loves to sell 22 caliber bullets. Heck, he even gave me some for free awhile back. Shiney .... or frosty. :grin:

I bought a few left hand actions from Charles Daly right after the announcement of the Remington deal before the supply dried up. I took one of those and mated it to a 14 twist Walther target barrel we had lying around. We had built a 22 Swift for a fella that couldn't keep it clean. When it was, it was measured in the tenths, even with the Swift at Swift velocities. Coppered up, it was a 2" performer.

Well, that Swift was only used about 200 shots. And two inches of that was cut off and chambered for the 223 with a match tollerance reamer. So maybe it is fairly broken in for me. And as far as that yellow stuff goes, it ain't going to be a problem here. I have a Tubbs kit waiting down stairs to start the fire lap process as we speak.

So I have a 24" barrel, on a gun that was built to shoot a 50 grain, 225415 seated at the bottom of the neck and engrave on the front band.

My "goal" is cast, sub 1/2 MOA, at about 3200 fps with 14 BHN. Stay tuned. I will let you know how it works.

[mike in co]

BA....
i have a min spec 223 reamer set up for lite bullets. in a 26" heavy hart 1/14 twist, n133 powcer, berger moly match 52.....it shoots in the mid 2's ...at 35/3600 fps...

3200 with cast ???....ww ?? or lino ?? heat treat ???...but you said 14.......ok i'm waiting!

[mike in co]

ok guys....
this gun will be off the bench...when i said no br...i meant no 30/40 lb benchrest monster....i have no problems with a 10-12 lb gun.

what caliber/cartridge/boolit has the most potential to be a 100/200 tack driver??

i did not say no to 8mm....did i ??

i'm very open to the caliber/cartridge....

i was surprised by the 222/223 suggestion....so there is one possibility( i already have the reamer)


keep it comming.....

[mike in co]

If it were a 30 cal then a 12 or 13 twist .308. The 311299 does purdy well. 22? 14 twist in .222, maybe .223. The Ly 225646 and the 22 Bator both work good. A 14 twist in 35 Whelen does right nice with the 358009! Just thinking out loud. sundog


sundog,
(you know i stole your mbabr and run it at my club)
if 35 whelen....what about 358 win ???
cast accuracy is the name of the game. bbl and twist can be bought, moulds can be bought, alloys and hardness played with......
what combination makes it all happen ???


mike

[Bass Ackward]

BA....
i have a min spec 223 reamer set up for lite bullets. in a 26" heavy hart 1/14 twist, n133 powcer, berger moly match 52.....it shoots in the mid 2's ...at 35/3600 fps...

3200 with cast ???....ww ?? or lino ?? heat treat ???...but you said 14.......ok i'm waiting!


Mike,

Well? Hows that contraption handle lead? Anyone can shoot that other stuff. You might just be getting it broken in to start lead.

I like softer lead because it crosses barriers and it can double for hunting. I put a ceiling at 3200 because we have 50% + relative humidity here pretty much year round. Somewhere after 3200 lead begins to vaporize. At 3500, it won't make the target at 100 and leaves what looks like a pretty circular vapor trail. Like someone stretching out a Slinky toy.

I may need a pointy bullet to do this though. And I have my eye on that 55 grain NEI model. Might just be a little higher BC to cut through the air better.

[1Shirt]

Mike, Nobody else mentioned a 30-30 on a good solid bolt action, or for that matter a 35/30-30. Lots of bullet choice for either and with the 35/30-30, there are a whale of a lot of pistol boolits to play with. Either with a good stiff bbl, of say 22" would be a lot of fun. One other thought would be the 357 Maxie. Don't like it in a hand gun, but think it would be fantastic in a good bolt rifle. Just my thoughts!
1Shirt!

[waksupi]

Maybe the ol' thuty-thuty, or the Rushkie Shortski?

[mike in co]

i had thought about thudythudy based rounds...could maybe us a mn as a base ??

what is the 32 miller ??/

since the receiver is a mouser......preduce44.....i was thinking stuff with 308.3006.8mm case heads.
saw an ad once for 7.62x39 in a masuer...but recently only saw it in small ring.

i already have a heavy bbl 308/1/13 twist

i do not have a 22 moulds so no attempts to shoot cast in the 1/14 223.
tho i do like the idea of little powder and little lead...

i have 03a3, 30/06 1/10 twist
308 win in 1/10 to 1/13( ok i have a 1/15 too)


i keep seeing std twists listed when some reccomends a cartridge....i would have thought with lead and slower velocities , i would see a change in twists ???

mike

[mike in co]

ok so far i see two interesting choices...

one is to do a dedicated 223/222 for cast boolits. if i do this it would be on an ar15 platform...cause i can do it inexpensively....i have 222 norma brass and a 223 reamer tons of brass......lots of powders

two is 358 win/35 whelen........
easy enough to do on a mauser 8mm reciever..........while brass can be bought it can also be MADE from 308 and 30.06

was someone serious about an 8mm ??

so lets work on these two for now.........one recomendation is 1/14 for lite 22 boolits in 223/222.......what would work for the 358 and the 35 whelen ??

and what length for each ???



and then what molds do i start looking for ??

[Bass Ackward]

so lets work on these two for now.........one recomendation is 1/14 for lite 22 boolits in 223/222.......what would work for the 358 and the 35 whelen ??

and what length for each ??? and then what molds do i start looking for ??


Mike,

There are three ways to shoot cast bullets. To shoot cast like cast at low pressures. To go rock hard and try to shoot cast like jacketed at higher pressures where more success is achieved from smaller case capacities.

Or the third option open to you is where you CAN use large case capacities to shoot low pressure with slow powders and allow barrel length to generate velocity for you. This is my favorite method. This allows soft lead too. A BIG blow gun if you will. Then the whole game becomes the lighter the bullet, the higher the velocity with the same powder and hardness. This plays right in to the slowest twist necessary to stabilize lead game. I take it to fenatical heights by wanting taller rifling to raise velocity ceilings even more.

So you need to decide on a target bullet weight in both calibers. And before I made any decision along the lines for a 22 caliber, I would investigate into a mold for the 223 you have. Several reasons. That gun is a good test bed. It's accuracy potential is already established. It is already broken in. Shooting a few cast in it will help it too. And you can get some questions answered. Like do you have the patience to deal with 22 cast. And you may decide that you want to cut a longer throat to shoot heavier lead in the next one you build as an option. Especially, on the action type you mention.

In the end, we are all different and shooting the one you have will point you in the direction, you want to go, "if".... you build another. (My bet is that you will discover gold / lead in them thar hills and forget all about another gun as you are already where I was trying to get. :grin:)

I prefer 24" barrels or longer on anything capable of shooting HV cast. My favorite 22LR has a 28" tube. I have 14 twists on both calibers you mention. But the only reason on the Whelen is because I used a standard SAAMI spec reamer. Standard 35 reamers have a freebore section that when it cleans up, changes angle, and shoots in, pretty much requires 250 grains of lead to have enough bullet to set in the case and reach out to the lands. If I was going to build another and I just might, I would cut a tight throat with no more than .150 freebore tapering to a 2 degree angle and aim for 225 - 230 grains from the base of the neck without going bore ride as a max bullet weight. And you action choice is going to limit OAL anyway. Myself, for that reason alone, I would go 358.

Paper just isn't that hard to punch. So velocity isn't necessary either. And shorter barrels just cut barrel time for possible human error to occur. Decisions, decisions.

[sundog]

Mike, the 32 Miller short is a basically a 357 Maximum necked down to 32. Depending on your chamber, trimming may be required. 357 Mag is too short to do it. See it here (http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ScheutzenCartridges/32%20Miller%20Short%20pages%20346%20and%20347.pdf) sundog

[mike in co]

ok for the 223/222 what boolit mold ?..........someone have a bator 22 for sale ?? what comercial mold ???

[sundog]

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000622BATOR

[Dale53]

The American Single Shot Rifle Association, where I am REAL active shoots almost exclusively at 200 yards. The criteria is a plain base lead bullet and a single shot action (no bolt actions allowed). The better shooters (just a handful) are shooting 1.5" ten shot groups or less (some MUCH less) at 200 yards under match conditions (the Nat'ls are held at Etna Green, IN just west of Warsaw, IN where it is flat and windy). The Nat'l record for five shots runs just over .700" (.728" or so) at 200 yards. That is inch measurement, not minute of angle!! The score matches are ten shot groups and the group matches are five shot groups.

They are commonly using small capacity cases ( .32 Miller Short is really just a .357 magnum necked to a nearly straight taper .32 caliber). So, a reduced capacity case suitable for a bolt action rifle should be just the ticket (.30 BR?). Plain base bullets are working extremely well at the velocity range of 1400-1500 fps. It is a bonus to not have to go to the expense and extra effort required by gas checks.

Now, nearly all of the competitors breechseat the bullet ahead of the case. However, that is NOT a requirement. Using the best bench rest techniques with case preparation, etc you should be able to get fine results with fixed ammo. The CBA guys are allowed to use gas checks and they tend to shoot at a higher velocity and fixed ammo but they also are getting really impressive results.

Before I spent my first dollar, I would decide if I wanted to shoot with or without gas checks. After that decision is made then I would order some back issues of each organizations magazine and read a few. That should give you a real world idea of "state of the art" in the respective disciplines.

Something to ponder...

Dale53

[xpshooter]

With the .224 cal choice, would there be any issues of shooting lead bullets in the ar-15 and it's gas system?

[ktw]

I'd like to obtain a similar rifle someday - dedicated cast bullet target shooter. I am planning on doing it as a Wiinchester 1885 in 30-30.

That one and a Sharps 1874 repro in 45-70 are only guns I still need to acquire in order to be truely happy. Promise. ;-)

-ktw

[waksupi]

ok for the 223/222 what boolit mold ?..........someone have a bator 22 for sale ?? what comercial mold ???

I've got a Bator 22 that could use a new home. Don't remember what I gave for it. Make me an offer, cover shipping, and it could be yours.

[mike in co]

With the .224 cal choice, would there be any issues of shooting lead bullets in the ar-15 and it's gas system?


what gas system ???
( ok its a joke...my 223 br actually still has a gas system, but is shot single.
my 308 win br has a gas port( full of copper) but no gas system, my 6ppc has no gas port...all rifles are ar platforms.)

not worried about it.....

[mike in co]

ok
a mention was made to modifiy the std 358 reamer.
and there were two twists listed
and whos bbl do i buy...

ok looks like a 24" tube,, but what profile,,,straight heavy ??
what twist?
just how much do i change the stock reamer?
and whom would you get your bbl from ???( yes i like hart and krieger)

should i buy 358 win brass...or neck up 308 win lapua ..so i start with better quality brass?

and then how about a couple starting mold recomentations ??

thanks
mike

[felix]

Mike, go with Krieger, land height around 475 thou, or whatever you guys on the phone come up with. Krieger will guarantee you a choke barrel, and the choke does not have to be significant, but definitely there. You want a boolit designed to minimize freebore which would make the throat last longer with the heaviest of loads. Heavy boolit, consider bore rider. You already know about twist. Get the best brass and neck up; or get "normal" brass and neck turn. ... felix

[gzig5]

The 30BR was mentioned and it would be a great candidate. I would think the 7BR or 30BR would be great and brass is easily available. BUT, be aware that the BR case can be a bit tricky to feed reliably out of a double stack magazine.

I second the Kreiger recommendation, as well. Be prepared for a 12week wait unless you go with a standard BR size barrel, that some suppliers keep in stock. I think my smith also keeps Palma barrels on hand as well.

Greg

[mike in co]

i did not consider the 30br...cause my next ar10 will be ...a 30br.....with no gas port...so i will be able to play there.
this was/is strictly a milsurplus bolt gun project with cast boolits...

so onward and upward we go with 358win.....

think i will expand some lapua necks and see how thin they get......

[Dan in Wa]

Have not seen the .30 Herrett mentioned. The neck is long enough for a 150 gr. bullet and you can't get more than 27 grs of 4198 in it.

[HORNET]

If you want something really different, you could go with the .270 Titus Savage. Can make brass out of lots of donor cases, the RCBS 270-150-SP has one of the highest ballistic coefficients that RCBS lists, the case should be small enough for consistent ignition, dies can be easily modified, and it should feed with minimal hassle. :bigsmyl2:

[PatMarlin]

You won't be dissapointed witha 358 Winchester. Man what an awesome cast shooter. Mine is scary accurate with the 250gr saeco boolit.

It's now my favorite bolt action hands down... :drinks:

[mike in co]

ok guys we are half way there..i ordered a bator..it was in stock!..........the 223/222 will start with the existing 223 1/14 26" ar15

[PatMarlin]

I just ordered a Bator too. Didn't know they had Cast Boolit molds.

[DPD]

Could a 6mm PPC be necked up to 30cal? It sounds like the right relationship
between case capacity and boolit, but then I don't have enought experience to be
talking with any authority on cast boolits in rifles.

[mike in co]

Could a 6mm PPC be necked up to 30cal? It sounds like the right relationship
between case capacity and boolit, but then I don't have enought experience to be
talking with any authority on cast boolits in rifles.


yes its called...30 ppc...which was why i was hopping someone knew of a 7.62x39 kit for large ring mausers....but the ppc's are based on smoking velocity......was hoping someone had played with the combo....

[felix]

The exact PPC case capacity is a little small for 30 on up. Go with the 30 BR case as a minimum here, which is more like the standard 7.62x39 having a normal head size. ... felix

[AZ-Stew]

Mike,

I'm guessing a bit here, but I'm thinking that the 30-30 case capacity is just about right. It should work well with either a fast or slow powder; somewhere in the vast selection of powders we have available to us now should be one that produces fine accuracy. Unfortunately, the 30-30 is rimmed, requiring a special bolt action. It could be worked easily in a falling block, if you're willing to live with a single shot.

Now for the zinger....

How about a 30 Rem.? Same case capacity, but rimless. OK, no brass. On Midway I see some 32 Rem. brass that should turn into 30 Rem. easily with a single pass through the 30 Rem. dies. Now you have brass.

Action? Remington is producing a 6.something SPC (?) whatever that is (if the Mil. wants something more effective than the .223, it should go back to the .308. It works. No time wasted screwing around with unknowns.), in the 700 action. This gives you the correct bolt face for the cartridge. You'll want a custom barrel anyway, so you're basically just buying it for the action.

Bullets? This is why I selected 30 cal. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of bullet designs to work with. Personally, I'd order my custom barrel with an 11 or 12 inch twist and go for the shorter bullets. Less recoil, less lead, and less powder required to launch them. With the slower powders available, there should be enough case capacity to launch a bullet at medium velocity and low pressure. I'm thinking this setup would give you a lot of options in a single rifle.

But I'm just speculating. However, if cost was no barrier, I think this is where I'd start.

Or, how about a shortened .300 Savage? Short 'n fat seems to be all the rage today. Hmmmmm.....

Regards,

Stew