I've had enough of Lyman

[PAT303]

I've decided that Lyman isn't getting my money anymore.I have bought two lube dies for my lubesizer,one in 8mm and the other in .25 cal.The 8mm is suppose to be .325 but is .322 and the .25 is .258 but sizes .256,the fact that they can't even make a simple sizing die to the correct size as well as thier molds I've got means no more for me.From now on Rick (Buckshot) is getting my money,at least he knows how to use a micrometer. Pat

[RobS]

This is the second post this week I've heard of their sizing dies being out of spec. Man they really are going down the drain.

[Ben]

down the drain


AND FAST ! !

[oldhickory]

When my 450 broke, it and the dies went away and were replaced with Saeco. I'm pretty much done with them.

[Bret4207]

Agreed. They simply don't care anymore. As I said in other occasions, I saw records indicating they made far more off sunglasses alone a few years back than casting stuff.

[bobthenailer]

I gave up on LYMAN products in the late 1970 after dissatfication and or breakage of several products ! and they did not care then !! really it was god sent because i found about other companys making better and more user friendly products !
Lyman had a better distrbuted product line and advertising, but thats it !!!

[bootsnthejeep]

Lyman makes sunglasses?

[adrians]

sunglasses huh!.
how do they shoot?

[GBertolet]

I have had the same problem with the last several Star sizer dies I purchased. They were all undersized. Luckily, I could hone them out to the correct size. Even the test bullet from Star(Magma), that comes inside the die, was undersized!

[RobS]

GBertolet: Star dies now that's one I haven't heard. lathesmith to your rescue the next time you need a die. He's a member here and will make you a die that won't be wrong.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=2206

[starnbar]

Whoa hold on fellas I have reloaded for quite a while 40+years now I will never say I never got a bad die or such. A phone call or letter all ways took care of the problem. I raced harleys back years ago and on an order of cam gears for a xr750 they sent me the wrong grind I called sifton and they sent me the correct set and told me to keep the other ones. People and machines can make mistakes if the product isn't right call em or write em and see if they stand behind what they sell. If they don't correct your issue then by all means move on and forget about em.

[white eagle]

just traded for one but hopefully they all aren't bad

[mpmarty]

Similar problem with RCBS of all people to be disappointed in. 7.5X55 (swiss) full length sizing die was working my brass over 0.25" at the head so I called them. Turns out their cherry for the swiss is based on the 1896 cartridge not the current (since 1911) round. They told me that for a fee if I sent them some fired cases they would "custom cut" a die for me. I asked how much and decided not to buy the die set all over again at full retail. Bought a Redding FL sizer which they listed specifically as 7.5X55 (1911) and now I'm a happy camper. Why pay more to a company that didn't get it right to begin with?

[22Short]

I remember when Lee Loaders were junk, now I use Lee molds and LYMAN is junk!

[idahoron]

I bought a mould a couple years ago from Lyman for my Muzzleloader. It was the Lyman #508656 plains bullet. The Midway catalog lists this mould at .508 and 395 gr. I got the mould and I NEVER got a bullet out of it to go more than .504 The best groups I could get out of the bullets with that mould were 10" at 100 yards or bigger. So I sent it back. Lyman looked it over and sent it back to me and said the mould was within specs. I sold the hunk of cr@p and told the guy that bought it everything that I knew about it and that I sent it back. I never heard if he had any luck with it. Ron

[mrbill2]

People and machines can make mistakes if the product isn't right call em or write em and see if they stand behind what they sell. If they don't correct your issue then by all means move on and forget about em.[/QUOTE]

Most machines make mistakes because people made a mistake when they set them up. Don't blame the machine. My problem with sending things back is IT COST ME MONEY and TIME. When I bought it I expect to be able to use it within a reasonable time. Instead I have to pay to return it and sometimes wait weeks for it to be returned, then sometimes return it again because they never fix the problem the first time. Companies should be made to pay our return cost, then maybe they would do a better job making what they produce.
Just my $.02

[geargnasher]

I worked for a Ford dealership in 2003 when Visteon, the parent company of Sterling Axle Manufacturing, sold the entire axle-making facility to a Mexican company. The tooling was worn out, the foundry equipment was shot, and the new plant opened with general laborers and no mechanical engineers, only industrial engineers who dealt with plant equipment, not hypoid gear setup.

The result was out-of-tolerance rear ends that made gear noise and couldn't be fixed. Some leaked oil through porous castings, some had loose axle tubes because the housing bores were too big. Moral of the story is the buyers didn't bother to inspect the stuff before brokering the deal, and Visteon laughed all the way to the bank since they unloaded the company without having to overhaul all the tooling to the tune of millions.

Lyman hasn't sold, but they're in the same spot Visteon was. Simply by observing recent products, it looks like they have been running their machine shop with worn-out cherries, sloppy, loose boring vices, dull mill cutters, and who knows what else and the result is absolutely worthless moulds and sizers that aren't even close to what they're supposed to be, aren't even round, and don't fit. I have nearly a dozen Lyman moulds and only two of them are any good at all, and that's after I corrected the alignment and lapped them.

I do have some good Lyman equipment, but as I've said here before, I refuse to buy any more of their stuff, period.

Gear

[walltube]

Our vendors are us. They are here. They are the maker, the Q.C., the customer service rep. They are but one private message or e-mail away from an order or product discussion. With honor.

It matters not that many thousand miles may separate us, we\they are HERE. At Cast Boolits. Surely our vendors may not satisfy all our needs and wants for the tools and stuff to make a poured projectile. But, where else may we buy with confidence the tools and gadgets not manufactured by any corporate entity. All with the precision and finish we lament as long gone and never to be seen again.

My two sou,
Wt.

[Bradley]

I like Lyman equipment. Very rarely when I've had a problem I just called and they fixed it for me.

[Floydster]

Yup, Lyman down the drain and you don't need a plunger:)

[peerlesscowboy]

I like Lyman equipment. Very rarely when I've had a problem I just called and they fixed it for me.
Me too, altho' most of my stuff I've had quite a few years. If their quality control is getting bad that's a shame.....Lyman is an old respected company that's been providing top quality casting equipment for over 130 years :(

John C. Saubak

[geargnasher]

QC and CS generally in the pooper at Lyman these days. If you don't believe it, go buy a new mould and try to ge them to fix it when it casts .002 undersized and .003" out of round.

Gear

[slim1836]

I have never bought Lyman products and from these posts will probably not buy their products in the future.

I believe bad products can be had from most any manufacturer, my Lee sizing die was advertised at .309, miked at .308, sent it back to Lee for adjustment or replacement, and the same die came back at .3085. I did not want to persue it anymore as postage costs were more than it was worth. I'll just get a machinist friend to hone it out for me.

Being new to boolit casting I am happy to have learned from the posts on this site, it is the main one I go to several times a day. I still have a long way to go, but the info here has enhanced my knowledge greatly. Keep up the good work everybody.

Just my 2 cents.

Slim

[Bad Water Bill]

As a senior citizen using Lyman products for over 40 years I decided to get one of their expensive new electronic scales just over 2 years ago. Well I saved up and got one thru Midway. When it arrived it would not turn on. Midway replaced it in a flash. Well now two years and maybe 30 times usage and the thing just will not work. Guess what? Throw the $200.00 toy in the garbage and go back to my Ohaus balance beam.

Lyman Co will NOT see another dime from me.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Nothing but great treatment for over fifty years from Lyman for me. The ladies who answer the phone at Lyman are knowlegeable and competent to the nth degree. Sometimes they'll tell me where I can get something cheaper elsewhere. I have received free repair parts on several occasions. About eight or ten years ago I sent in a Lyman 450 that a friend had given me that was leaking lube from every pore. Lyman sent back a brand new 450, no charge. It is right next to my 1968 purchased 450.

I can't recommend too highly talking to an actual human being on the phone vs. ordering by computer.

[peerlesscowboy]

I believe bad products can be had from most any manufacturer, my Lee sizing die was advertised at .309, miked at .308, sent it back to Lee for adjustment or replacement, and the same die came back at .3085. I did not want to persue it anymore as postage costs were more than it was worth. I'll just get a machinist friend to hone it out for me.
Did you "mike" the ID of the die itself or did you "mike" a bullet sized by the die?

[Shooter6br]

When i grew up certain names meant quality. G>E, Ford ,Chevy, Simonize wax, Kodak film,LYMAN, Lee jeans, Eddie Bauer, LL Bean, Remington, Winchester, Philco,Timex( Takes a licking and keeps on ticking) Today brand names dont mean ( well you know)Now your cant trust a name. Most companies are living on their name. RCBS is an exception.I am sure you can name more companies that made quality products NO MORE>

[GabbyM]

I still purchase some Lyman tools.

I’ve sent two or three moulds back to Lyman that were out of spec. Never tried to call them. Just looked up there warranty return address on there web sight and mailed them in. With bullets cast from 2/6 foundry alloy and a short and to the point note. always got a perfect mould back. Same story with RCBS. Of course I was out $5 shipping the mould to them. I've had just as many RCBS and Saeco moulds bad as Lyman. I’d say that at least in my experience they are at a dead heat in the put out junk department. For my own personal experience over the last four years I've had better luck with Lyman moulds than Saeco or RCBS with Saeco being dismal. But I've heard Saeco has mad some corrections a year or so back.

From my thirty years in machine shops I’ve seen how corporate control morphed manufacturing procedures. I’ve seen men who ran junk all day but kept up high production get kudos. I’ve had a company owner stop by my machine after walking for at least two minutes to get there just to tell me he was tired of paying me to polish parts. And that’s really nothing. Just examples. Quality control is measured in how much product gets returned as bad. Our three big casting equipment companies seam to be putting out around 20% scrap. At least over 15% I’d guess. College boys look for 3% to 8% depending on the product. A machinist can actually get fired from a shop for not running enough scrap. Even if his production is up to or above standard. It truly is *****.

Let me in summation state my belief that the fish rots from the head down .

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Lyman is an important part of boolit casting history.
they need our support, not necessarily in the $$$ department at this moment,
but to contact them with any problems, e-mail them a link to discussions like this one.
they need to tighten up the ship, before it sinks.
we can't just ignore them or they may go away.
Just my 2¢
Jon

[unique]

I also decided to never buy a lyman product again.

I recently bought 310 loading tool for 30-30 and a part was missing. I called Lyman and the lady on the other end 'suggested' that some people lose parts and call up asking for replacement. I replied that I would happily pay for it and then she suggested someone at distributor probably removed the part but she would send me a new 'no charge'

I explained what part was missing but just knew that as I hung up I was going to get the wrong part. The lady just didn't seemed focused on customer service.

Lyman sent the wrong part so now I got a disfunctional 310 tool and lyman is getting no more of my business.

[prs]

Whoa hold on fellas I have reloaded for quite a while 40+years now I will never say I never got a bad die or such. A phone call or letter all ways took care of the problem. I raced harleys back years ago and on an order of cam gears for a xr750 they sent me the wrong grind I called sifton and they sent me the correct set and told me to keep the other ones. People and machines can make mistakes if the product isn't right call em or write em and see if they stand behind what they sell. If they don't correct your issue then by all means move on and forget about em.

I did not know Lyman made Harley gears.:wink:
prs

[HighHook]

Its kind of sad to read all this bad stuff about a company that we all believed in for many many years.

The books and authors love for cast boolits.

I had issues with the last lyman products bought also, It is an ever changing world and sign of the times...

[Bret4207]

Lyman makes sunglasses?

Pacmayr.

[Bret4207]

When i grew up certain names meant quality. G>E, Ford ,Chevy, Simonize wax, Kodak film,LYMAN, Lee jeans, Eddie Bauer, LL Bean, Remington, Winchester, Philco,Timex( Takes a licking and keeps on ticking) Today brand names dont mean ( well you know)Now your cant trust a name. Most companies are living on their name. RCBS is an exception.I am sure you can name more companies that made quality products NO MORE>

The days of a company attempting to create brand loyalty through marketing and supporting a superior product at a fair price are long gone friends. Every now and then I'll catch a blurb about some IHC freezer still running along without a hiccup since 1948 or I'll climb on my 1947 Case tractor and consider it was born 12 years before I was. I don't expect "free" replacements, (unless they advertised them as getting free replacements), but the quality is what's lacking. Look at Briggs and Stratton engines- I have some from the early 60's that still run like a top and one from 2004 that has just over 100 hours on it that came wrapped in a $2500 package from Sears that isn't worth 2 farts on dark night.

A fine example of why America is on the slide into oblivion.

[LAH]

Nothing but great treatment for over fifty years from Lyman for me. The ladies who answer the phone at Lyman are knowlegeable and competent to the nth degree. Sometimes they'll tell me where I can get something cheaper elsewhere. I have received free repair parts on several occasions. About eight or ten years ago I sent in a Lyman 450 that a friend had given me that was leaking lube from every pore. Lyman sent back a brand new 450, no charge. It is right next to my 1968 purchased 450.

I can't recommend too highly talking to an actual human being on the phone vs. ordering by computer.

'bout the same here. I speak to the people I buy from, get their name, & if I have a problem I call that person. I'm always nice & try to work through people who give me problems so I get the problem taken care of. Lyman has always fixed things for me.

On the other hand I have no reason not to believe those here with Lyman problems.

BTW: I was never allowed to speak with the Lyman shop foreman. On the other hand I've spoke with Saeco's foreman twice & the RCBS shop foreman several times.

[GabbyM]

The days of a company attempting to create brand loyalty through marketing and supporting a superior product at a fair price are long gone friends. Every now and then I'll catch a blurb about some IHC freezer still running along without a hiccup since 1948 or I'll climb on my 1947 Case tractor and consider it was born 12 years before I was. I don't expect "free" replacements, (unless they advertised them as getting free replacements), but the quality is what's lacking. Look at Briggs and Stratton engines- I have some from the early 60's that still run like a top and one from 2004 that has just over 100 hours on it that came wrapped in a $2500 package from Sears that isn't worth 2 farts on dark night.

A fine example of why America is on the slide into oblivion.

Briggs and Stratton closed down there Missouri plant. Moving everything to China. Even before the final move much of the inventory was made in the PRC. Last small engine I bought was a garden tiller replacement. Made in USA Honda. I think Kohler, Onan and Tecumseh are still building engines.

Last summer I bought a new screen door handle $12 at a hardware store. Do-It Best brand made in PRC. Now a few months later the handle broke of in sub zero weather and I’ve no door knob on my screen door. Just a bunch of junk.

[1Shirt]

It seems that it is rare to find any company or business today of any size where quality control and pride in mfg is the goal. Guess this is why when it comes to Lyman, I buy only older molds and a lot of them are Ideal marked. Never had a bad one. The only bad thing I have with a Lyman brand is the electric powder dispenser w/scale. Piece of junk, back to the old Ohas beam scale, and a little battery powered digital from Hornady. Believe in having back up. Still have an old webster scale on the shelf just in case. Never had a bad RCBS product to date. Still use a fair number of Herters dies. Have a lot of lee stuff, and have at most have had minor complaints.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[NVScouter]

Did you "mike" the ID of the die itself or did you "mike" a bullet sized by the die?

:bigsmyl2: We need the poking with a stick Smiley.

I have a few Lyman pieces and they are fine, no molds or sizers.

I love Hornady bullets but thier reloading stuff is GARBAGE! I've sold my Hornday dies and get RCBS, LEE or Redding now. My Hornday powder measure ate bushings like nobody's business and my Lock N'Load auot index press was the biggest waste of $$ I've had in reloading.

[sergeant69]

:bigsmyl2: We need the poking with a stick Smiley.

I have a few Lyman pieces and they are fine, no molds or sizers.

I love Hornady bullets but thier reloading stuff is GARBAGE! I've sold my Hornday dies and get RCBS, LEE or Redding now. My Hornday powder measure ate bushings like nobody's business and my Lock N'Load auot index press was the biggest waste of $$ I've had in reloading.

couldn't agree more. if i couldn't of sold my LNL i was gonna use it for an anchor. tech guy at hornady sounded like a teenager, said he never loaded .45acp so " i don't know what to tell you". was dumbfounded. guess it was too much trouble for him to ask someone that did. sold it w/full disclosure. had a lyman electronic scale that refused to calibrate or turn off right outta the box. rep at midway said "another one" but they took it back.

[casterofboolits]

I much prefer casting with Lyman four cavity moulds. Once the moulds are up to temp, they cast perfect boolits for me and do not overheat like the Saeco and H&G four cavity mould blocks. When I had my casting business, I would cast using three Lyman four cavity moulds and could empty an RCBS 10 Kilo pot in under 25 minutes.

I have close to eighty four cavity Lyman moulds and have only had one bad one in thirty eight years of casting. My most recent purchase (2010) was two of the 452664 45-250-RFBB and both moulds drop at 250 +/- one grain and size perfectly to 452.

Before that pair I purchased two of the 401638 40-175-TCBB and they drop at 174/175 grains at .403 dia.

The one bad mould was a 452374 45-225-RNPB which dropped 220 grains from the same alloy my other Lyman moulds dropped exact weights from and just barely sizes the land below the grease groove to .452. Luckily, I have an older 452374 that drops at 225 grains and sizes as much above the grease groove as below.

It is unfortunate that the Lyman techs and management are not keeping track of quality control and manufacturing processes in thier plant. Had they done so, they would be the premier mould producer in the US. It seems that who ever makes thier cherrys kind of eyeball the specs and do not measure them, then they use the cherrys way past the point the cherry should be replaced.

Saeco seems to have much better control over thier manufacturing and QC process. I purchased a Saeco four cavity 9mm RN mould last year that perfectly matches one I bought over twenty five years ago. Same size, same weight. However, I do not like Saeco mould bloks for boolits weighing over 160 grains. The mould blocks are too small and over heat quickly compared to the Lyman four cavity moulds.

[Leadmelter]

I have used both Lyman and RCBS molds all my life. I bought a bunch of vintage 4 cavity molds and could not be happier. Production rate is up and good quality.
My only beef with RCBS is the lube wrench on my Lubimatic broke and I wrote for a replacement under warranty. They told they did not make it anymore but I bought two from Lyman for about $7 apiece and shipping.
I wonder if anybody from those companies monitor this website and others like it?

Gerry

[x101airborne]

I dont know if it is my lack of experience with Lyman molds that causes them to cast small boolits or if it is the molds. As far as that Lyman powder dispenser..... What A Piece..... Sent mine back to Lyman three times. After the third time, I just threw it away. I had no more patience for that type of ****. Now the RCBS powder dispenser and I are LONG time friends.

[stubshaft]

The only time I buy anything with the Lyman name on it is if it is "vintage" or manufactured at LEAST 10 years ago.

[bhn22]

I've had far fewer issues with Lymans products than I ever did with LEE. Lyman has pissed me off a few times, but it always got worked out, and I still believe that we'll eventually work out any issues. I have never had to return a Lyman mould, and I have had more of them then I can even remember. I think the most I've ever paid Lyman for a repair was $25.00 for a replacement heating element for my Mag 20. They even sent me a free spare since I'd had problems with them. Lee has repeatedly disappointed me so badly that they get no further business from me. None.

[PAT303]

If NOE,CBE etc can make molds that are right on spec there is no reason why Lyman who have been doing it for 130 years can't do it.The one thing that bugs me the most about American gear is they can't be bothered to manufacture their products within spec,38/55 barrels that have .380 bores or 6.5x55 swede cases made on 30/06 machinery or 303 cases with .050 rims,the list goes on yet they are the ones who complain when we don't buy thier product.Reputation is everything,once you get a bad one you've got it forever. Pat

[warf73]

Lyman can keep there customer server to themselfs if you call it that. They screwed me over when I first starting casting and I've never bought another lyman product since.

[HangFireW8]

I fully support consumer rage, if something doesn't work for you, buy from a competitor, complain about it here.

Personally, though, I don't subscribe to the "never buy that brand again" for a US manufactured product. Maybe I won't buy whatever specific product they do poorly again, but chances are they do something else well.

I've got reloading or casting equipment from every major US manufacturer and most of the minor ones, every single one has had something go back, some twice, and I keep trying until I get satisfaction. I figure its the only way to get them to learn, to get them to fix their stuff.

Relating Lyman to B&S or Harley or whatever anecdotes, that doesn't mean anything to me. How a company breaks down and falls flat is unique to that company and their ***** management. If you work at Lyman or know someone who does, that I'd be interested in hearing about. I'm not gonna try to stop you'all from spouting off, but it just doesn't mean anything to me to compare Lyman to someone else's breakdown.

-HF

[SkookumJeff]

It seems like most manufacturer's in this country are having problems. I wonder if it has anything to do with our education system? When I was a kid my local high school had a full blown auto shop, an FFA program, they taught welding and machining. Now a days no school I know of in my area has any of these programs. They dumped them years ago claiming they couldn't afford them. I'm not sure if my state even sponsors a machinist apprenticeship program anymore.

Kids these days wouldn't know what to do with a vernier scale, they could not read a micrometer unless it was digital. I remember learning to use a file for deburring parts. I doubt if the average teenager today could tell you what a file was for...unless they told you it was something to organize email. I'm guessing these company's have a hell of a hard time finding qualified people to hire for the shop even when they're willing to train. If we don't do something to stop the further erosion of our manufacturing base NOW our standard of living in this country will continue to decline. Sadly It may already be too late....

Sorry if I got off topic.

[PAT303]

Totally agree 100%.Most kids now couldn't adjust a push bike chain. Pat

[geargnasher]

I fully support consumer rage, if something doesn't work for you, buy from a competitor, complain about it here.

Personally, though, I don't subscribe to the "never buy that brand again" for a US manufactured product. Maybe I won't buy whatever specific product they do poorly again, but chances are they do something else well. Quality products that do what they are supposed to do are not made by CHANCE. They are made carefully and deliberately by people who care and then checked by people who' s sole job it is to care.

I've got reloading or casting equipment from every major US manufacturer and most of the minor ones, every single one has had something go back, some twice, and I keep trying until I get satisfaction. I figure its the only way to get them to learn, to get them to fix their stuff. You have not had the same experiences with Lyman that I and others here have had, sending back a product multiple times and finally being told off in the end. What you have to understand about this rant is that reasonable, understanding people have been tring to get Lyman to fix their stuff for some time, and have had a gut full of of it. Not just once or twice, but many times. In order to make anyone do something, especially the RIGHT thing, you have to convince them that it is in their best interest to do so. None of us have a "gun" big enough to convince the Lyman corporation to care enough to make right with their destitute product line.

Relating Lyman to B&S or Harley or whatever anecdotes, that doesn't mean anything to me. I related the Visteon story as an example of how tooling wears out after 130 years and has to be replaced. How a company breaks down and falls flat is unique to that company and their ***** management. If Lyman's management is "*****", all the better reason to spend my money somewhere else. If you work at Lyman or know someone who does, that I'd be interested in hearing about. Do you really think you'd get the straight dope from one of them? I'm not gonna try to stop you'all from spouting off, but it just doesn't mean anything to me to compare Lyman to someone else's breakdown. I'm sorry you missed the point.

-HF


Fortunately it's still a fairly free country here with a free economy and you can buy from whoever you want, I'll only buy products from the vendors that have the best stuff for my money.

Gear

[PAT303]

If Lyman,Lee etc really cared and took an interest in what we wanted we wouldn't need group buys.If I ran those companies the first thing I would do is search the forums to see what my customer wanted. Pat

[beagle]

I guess i've used Lyman stuff for about 50 years now. The older Ideal stuff was and is pretty good. About the time they went to black and white mould boxes, things went to ****. Undersized moulds and just plain defects in moulds that a youngster could see.

They're definitely not putting their money into skilled manufacturing personnel, quality control or marketing and as a result, are losing ground fast in the casting business.

Sizer dies are a real pet peeve. Whenever I get a new one, I run a test sizing and mark the dimension on a 35mm film cannister that I store it in. Man, I've really found some that were way off. The underized ones, I have my buddy to take to spec on a Sunnen grinder where he works. He says and so far has hit .0003"=/- on the diameters I want. The oversized dies are turned into something larger that I need.

Now, there's no need for **** like this when a simple test could be performed before shipping to insure that the die is at least close.

Just a poor way to do business and they're suffering for it. If you get bad stuff, take 'em to task.

Oh, do I long for the old days when a premium grade Colt...Python, Gold Cup or Officer's Model Match came with a target fired by that gun with the inspector's name on it. Guess them days are gone./beagle

[justingrosche]

I have used both Lyman and RCBS molds all my life. I bought a bunch of vintage 4 cavity molds and could not be happier. Production rate is up and good quality.
My only beef with RCBS is the lube wrench on my Lubimatic broke and I wrote for a replacement under warranty. They told they did not make it anymore but I bought two from Lyman for about $7 apiece and shipping.
I wonder if anybody from those companies monitor this website and others like it?

Gerry

Like Gerry said, I wonder if any one from Lyman or RCBS, Saeco, or Lee ever stop by the largest Boolit casting site on the net to see what we say about them.

[PatMarlin]

It seems like most manufacturer's in this country are having problems. I wonder if it has anything to do with our education system? When I was a kid my local high school had a full blown auto shop, an FFA program, they taught welding and machining. Now a days no school I know of in my area has any of these programs. They dumped them years ago claiming they couldn't afford them. I'm not sure if my state even sponsors a machinist apprenticeship program anymore.

Kids these days wouldn't know what to do with a vernier scale, they could not read a micrometer unless it was digital. I remember learning to use a file for deburring parts. I doubt if the average teenager today could tell you what a file was for...unless they told you it was something to organize email. I'm guessing these company's have a hell of a hard time finding qualified people to hire for the shop even when they're willing to train. If we don't do something to stop the further erosion of our manufacturing base NOW our standard of living in this country will continue to decline. Sadly It may already be too late....

Sorry if I got off topic.

I totally agree with this. I watched it happen and have seen the results and commented about this before here at CB. We are now living it.

The quest to learn a skill, strive to do good work and craftsmanship is rare now amongst employees and management on any level of the pecking order.

This is fundamentally where America has dropped the ball. Kids are taught self-esteem and not how to learn and work. This produces bad kids, bad employees, bad spouses, bad parents in this "I'm gonna get mine, and don't give a **** world".

I'm sorry but liberalism has caused this from government to our schools, and into the home.

Nothing can work this out but natural supply and demand. Government can do nothing but further screw it up and prolong it. If a business has to crash and burn, then crash and burn. Someone smart and willing will step in to replace them. I bet their kids will have a better work ethic as well.

Now that I'm in the spec and part making business, I work damn hard to make sure as best I can the parts are on spec, and still some few mistakes slip by. I worry about it in my sleep even.

Imagine an employee running the machine. Is he going to be as concerned as I am? Why should he give a damn when he figures the company makes all the money, and he's been taught all his life his feelings are the most important.

Folks are going to just have to hit bottom and starve for awhile again. Then they will learn the importance of hard work and doing a good job. What every that job is,.

[Dale53]

walltube;
>>>All with the precision and finish we lament as long gone and never to be seen again.<<<

I agree with your sentiment but in all truth, moulds from MiHec and NOE are BETTER than the "Good old days!" I haven't used all of our vendors products but of those I use, I have to say they are BETTER than in the past. That includes Lars White Label Lubes and Bullshop Sprue Plate lube as well.

FWIW
Dale53

[GabbyM]

walltube;
>>>All with the precision and finish we lament as long gone and never to be seen again.<<<

I agree with your sentiment but in all truth, moulds from MiHec and NOE are BETTER than the "Good old days!" I haven't used all of our vendors products but of those I use, I have to say they are BETTER than in the past. That includes Lars White Label Lubes and Bullshop Sprue Plate lube as well.

FWIW
Dale53

There you go Dale. Out with the old in with the new.

We have a bunch of elitist class college educated narcissist who get hold of our brand name companies. If not simply foreign investors. They learn manufacturing from a bunch of long hair socialist college professors who follow the Japanese method. It’s not the American way and we should all reject it.

Support the small shop manufactures and we’ll see more fine products.
Then when those fellows retire and sell out to a big company we'll see there name run into the ground also.

[Cowboy T]

It's amazing that we have to "go" all the way to Slovenia to get a top-quality multi-cavity HP mould. My MiHec mould is top-notch. The vast majority of my casting is done with Lee 6-cavity moulds (Made In USA, BTW), and they certainly do a good job. The only Lyman products I have are the micrometer and the 49th Edition Reloading Manual. From what I'm repeatedly hearing, it seems like those should remain the only Lyman products I own.

[Recluse]

I've had far fewer issues with Lymans products than I ever did with LEE. Lyman has pissed me off a few times, but it always got worked out, and I still believe that we'll eventually work out any issues. I have never had to return a Lyman mould, and I have had more of them then I can even remember. I think the most I've ever paid Lyman for a repair was $25.00 for a replacement heating element for my Mag 20. They even sent me a free spare since I'd had problems with them. Lee has repeatedly disappointed me so badly that they get no further business from me. None.

In over thirty years, I've had the exact opposite experience.

Like Beagle, I'll buy the old Ideal and early days Lyman stuff (I'm especially fond of their Lyman 45 lubesizer--and you couldn't give me a 4500). The "new" Lyman? Forget about 'em.

In fact, a couple of years ago, I wrote them a pretty harsh letter over some dealings that we here at Cast Boolits had with them--and it was even back then that we found out just how damned little their word, promises and commitments were worth.

It's far cheaper and more economical for me to purchase a Lee two-cavity mold, spend a couple of hours Lee-menting it, lapping it out, then cleaning it up to get boolits I know will be good and at or over the advertised size.

I've sent back no less than SIX Lyman molds for all being grossly undersized, among other things. On two of them, I had alignment problems and on others I had tooling issues, etc.

When I call a customer service line, I'm initially very patient, very understanding. In every single instance I dealt with someone at the New Lyman, whatever dim-watted bulb on the phone could've cared less. You could practically hear the gum-smacking and see the hair-twirling as they were talking to me. [smilie=b:

There are things about Lee I do not like, but apathy towards the consumer when they're on a one-to-one phone call is something I've never experienced in all of my days, weeks, months and decades in this reloading and shooting world. Same goes for RCBS and Dillon and Hornady.

:coffee:

[PatMarlin]

I love my Lyman 45s.

[Suo Gan]

I totally agree with this. I watched it happen and have seen the results and commented about this before here at CB. We are now living it.

The quest to learn a skill, strive to do good work and craftsmanship is rare now amongst employees and management on any level of the pecking order.

This is fundamentally where America has dropped the ball. Kids are taught self-esteem and not how to learn and work. This produces bad kids, bad employees, bad spouses, bad parents in this "I'm gonna get mine, and don't give a **** world".

I'm sorry but liberalism has caused this from government to our schools, and into the home.

Nothing can work this out but natural supply and demand. Government can do nothing but further screw it up and prolong it. If a business has to crash and burn, then crash and burn. Someone smart and willing will step in to replace them. I bet their kids will have a better work ethic as well.

Now that I'm in the spec and part making business, I work damn hard to make sure as best I can the parts are on spec, and still some few mistakes slip by. I worry about it in my sleep even.

Imagine an employee running the machine. Is he going to be as concerned as I am? Why should he give a damn when he figures the company makes all the money, and he's been taught all his life his feelings are the most important.

Folks are going to just have to hit bottom and starve for awhile again. Then they will learn the importance of hard work and doing a good job. What every that job is,.

I think there is some truth to what you are saying about starving and learning to do a good job again, but it is all about production now. I remember grandpa saying the same thing about my generation as we are saying about the current one. People like you are filling a niche in our market based economy. That is the beauty of the system. The big boys make goods to please the masses at the sacrifice of the one off quality you get when you pay out the wazoo for a custom item (just did this last month for some motorcycle racks). If you were selling a few million units of your press mount a year do you think every single one of your customers would be 100% satisfied? Even if you offered a 100% money back guarantee and honored it, some would piss and moan about wasting their time and the hassle of sending it back to you. Its just the way the cookie crumbles. Some would say you were slipping and that quality had gone out the window and no pride in workmanship. Some folks might not even give you a chance to make good. Perhaps one of your many telephone operators was having a bad day and pissed someone off. Do you see how this can be subjective thing?

I guess what I am trying to say is that I still believe the American worker, and most American companies are making a good product that makes them a profit and fills a need. There is still pride there under all that production.

[9.3X62AL]

I've not had the poor luck with Lyman moulds and sizer dies that others have experienced, but did "roll the bones" a couple weeks ago with their service department and sent in a 57HVA rear sight for repairs. I'll give it about a month, and see what results. I would have preferred to just install the little E-clips myself, but couldn't find the things in the correct size or in lots of under 100 each at $159.

There is at least one Lyman rep (female) who is VERY competent, and a pleasure to deal with on the phone.

All that said, I'm a lot more likely to do business with Buckshot or the other members/vendors here than with some corporate wonk for precision tooling or mouldmaking. Those venues as handled by Lyman seem to be too much like a trip to Las Vegas for my tastes, and the tools I've purchased from these in-house sources are first-rate.

[PatMarlin]

No company can please everybody that's for sure.

I think the standard and quality of the American worker has slipped and many companies have moved operations overseas because of it, and because of costs forced by labor unions and government over regulation.

[Just Duke]

I try and avoid any Lyman products.
RCBS seems to have the better lubesizer and dies.

[Texasflyboy]

This is fundamentally where America has dropped the ball. Kids are taught self-esteem and not how to learn and work. This produces bad kids, bad employees, bad spouses, bad parents in this "I'm gonna get mine, and don't give a **** world".

I'm sorry but liberalism has caused this from government to our schools, and into the home.



Agreed. Ample evidence of where we went wrong as a country. I've never understood how generations of parents who were raised by a previous generation of parents who insisted on teaching the fundamentals of math and science seem to think they need to change child rearing to "improve" the lives of their own children.

I have a great example in my family. We are a large family. My father was a World War II vet (USMC, 2nd Marine Div) and my siblings and I bookmark the baby boom generation. We have two PhD's. Several Masters Degrees. All of us made it though college. Almost all of us paid for it out of pocket (Loans, etc...).

Several educators. Several small business owners. One Engineer. Two CEO's. Spouses are the same mix. And yet, in spite of their own success, some of my siblings decided to experiment with their own child rearing. Some didn't. Those that changed the recipe on average, are the ones with failed marriages, split families, and "life partners". Those that didn't are simply raising another generation of Engineers, CEO's, and world shakers. I have a 25 year old niece that taught herself to change the oil in her car and do routine maintenance (spark plugs, etc..) at 15 years of age. She now owns a small car repair business employing four full time mechanics. She was raised by one of my sister's who focused on reading, writing, arithmetic. There was no joy for me like the joy I felt when that niece listed an Arc Welder machine as a wedding present vs. cookware (which she already owned).

Simple hard work. A focus on reading, writing, and 'rithmetic (the three R's). A focus early on with the benefits of competition and winning vs. soccer games where no one keeps score. Science projects that demonstrate real world applications vs. "How feelings are important in relationships with your pet."

It's my belief that it's because of a lack of focus in education on the fundamentals that has lead to what we see in manufacturing and U.S. Industrial output today. Kids today for the most part, dream of clicking their way through life. Click a mouse through school, click a mouse through college, tap a screen on an iPad at your first job, and a forest of dead trees is their legacy. When we were kids, we made things. We made our toys. We made our entertainment. That training as a child serves us well in adulthood. Some of us are actually machinists in our spare time! Imaging a kid today day dreaming about his first lathe.

As a society you either have a well rounded base of citizens who can make products all the way up and down the manufacturing chain or you end up outsourcing some part of the chain and allowing some other nation's citizens to develop their kids who will grow up to be well rounded educated kids who make things.

Simple choice. Either know how to manufacture or pay someone else to do it.

[madsenshooter]

I wonder if anybody from those companies monitor this website and others like it?


Somebody sent them a link to this thread, whether or not they follow it....

[PatMarlin]

I wonder if anybody from those companies monitor this website and others like it?


Somebody sent them a link to this thread, whether or not they follow it....


Probably not but they need to be. Dollars have to be earned nowadays again. The gravy train has left the station.

I know a guy with a software company he developed for the machining industry and he is right there on every forum answering questions and taking care of problems. I'm doing the same thing.

I know another world wide company that was starting to get a bad rep with their controls and it was base on snow balling, internet BS. They got a service rep addressing the threads when ever they come up and helping users. Setting the false info straight and fixing customer issues.

The days of business as usual has changed with the net. No one is isolated anymore and I think it's a good thing.

[NVScouter]

No company can please everybody that's for sure.

I think the standard and quality of the American worker has slipped and many companies have moved operations overseas because of it, and because of costs forced by labor unions and government over regulation.

America dropped manufacturing 20 years ago as a national resource. The Schools tell all the kids to go to college when the fact remains that most wont. Of those that go many shouldnt be there and will not suceed.

Trade schools and alternative education prgrams like shop are held in poor reguard to this thinking and are dropped so the school can waste tax dollars in ESL and other worthless programs.

I was a 4.0 student when i wasnt in trouble and wood/metal/auto shop helped keep me out of trouble. I did college 10 years after and it was hard, my own money, and worth it.

The USA built up China in 20 years by not wanting to our hands dirty anymore and now their ecconomy is bigger then ours. :violin:

[GLL]

Texasflyboy & NVScouter:

VERY well said !

Jerry

[theperfessor]

"We have a bunch of elitist class college educated narcissist who get hold of our brand name companies. If not simply foreign investors. They learn manufacturing from a bunch of long hair socialist college professors who follow the Japanese method. It’s not the American way and we should all reject it."

I'm trying real hard not to be pissed off by this generalization.

[Ickisrulz]

It seems like most manufacturer's in this country are having problems. I wonder if it has anything to do with our education system? When I was a kid my local high school had a full blown auto shop, an FFA program, they taught welding and machining. Now a days no school I know of in my area has any of these programs. They dumped them years ago claiming they couldn't afford them. I'm not sure if my state even sponsors a machinist apprenticeship program anymore.

Kids these days wouldn't know what to do with a vernier scale, they could not read a micrometer unless it was digital. I remember learning to use a file for deburring parts. I doubt if the average teenager today could tell you what a file was for...unless they told you it was something to organize email. I'm guessing these company's have a hell of a hard time finding qualified people to hire for the shop even when they're willing to train. If we don't do something to stop the further erosion of our manufacturing base NOW our standard of living in this country will continue to decline. Sadly It may already be too late....

Sorry if I got off topic.

This is even more off topic, but a good article by Jay Leno on machinists:

http://www.kanabco.com/vms/callingallmachinists.html

[NHlever]

I've been involved in manufacturing, and firearms manufacturing in particular. I saw a lot of changes in the last 40 years, some good, and some not so good. I've also seen, and worked with some very bright managers who, through no fault of their own, are not really in touch with what is going on at ground zero in their plants. It is a sad thing to see a company with a strong heritage, and history of producing good products fall from grace through lack of understanding. The issues are complex, but have simple roots that can be traced by those willing to look past what they are told. I've also been a part of a transition from standard (old fashoned) manufacturing methods to "lean manufacturing" and the "Toyota Principles" Implementing these changes in this country requires a very good understanding of the INTENT of those principles rather than the LETTER of them. Like a good Cop, managers need to understand both their people, and the things about these new methods that work. Taking all the chairs from the manufacturing area doesn't, in itself, do anything to improve quality, or output any more than taking all the chairs from manager's offices would.
The biggest thing I have seen is that folks these days no longer feel "invested" in their jobs, or the things they produce. Somehow, we have made money the only thing to be gained at many jobs, and the result has been that money is the only thing that folks care about. I've seen folks actually penalized for mentioning a better way to do something, and penalized for caring more about quality than quantitiy. It seems that many managers don't understand that if quality is in place at each operation, quantity will take care of itself. It is always cheaper, and better to make something right the first time. I guess it is the same mentality that causes managers to surround themselves with people that they can be sure know less than themselves. It seems that the idea of surrounding yourself with folks that are very bright is more of a threat to them than understanding how much better off they would be if they did. I remember going to a meeting involving a local training program, and having the owner of a small business say "I want the smart a## in the back of the room that questions what I do, and is always keeping me on my toes". He had a point. Compared to many other things, labor costs are not an issue as long as we are talking about paying people that are working anyway. When I left manufacturing, the average reject / rework on things outsourced to China was nearly 40%. We can do much better than that. Those cheap parts aren't so cheap anymore when you look at those numbers.

[9.3X62AL]

THAT was one fine article by Jay Leno.

[felix]

Need to eliminate the corporate farms and go back to family regulated operations. Quality starts and ends on a local basis. Unfortunately, volume of production depends upon outside knowledge which places emphasis on obtaining outside resources. Therein is the catch 22 and encourages the proverbial good-ol-boy arrangements to maximize the augmentation in common which typically is "money". The only fix is to start all over again and perhaps the catalyst will be new money as shown working in all past instances. ... felix

[bizzledude]

America dropped manufacturing 20 years ago as a national resource. The Schools tell all the kids to go to college when the fact remains that most wont. Of those that go many shouldnt be there and will not suceed.

Trade schools and alternative education prgrams like shop are held in poor reguard to this thinking and are dropped so the school can waste tax dollars in ESL and other worthless programs.

I was a 4.0 student when i wasnt in trouble and wood/metal/auto shop helped keep me out of trouble. I did college 10 years after and it was hard, my own money, and worth it.

The USA built up China in 20 years by not wanting to our hands dirty anymore and now their ecconomy is bigger then ours. :violin:

I'm not trying to **** on your point, but our economy is still ~3 times larger than China's. I'm just tired of hearing this...

I do wish there were more affordable trade schools, as I probably would have attended a couple just for personal growth and knowledge; they all seem to be scams considering your mechanics training and licensing ends up with a $45,000 price tag.

My high school had shop, mechanics, and a full line of agriculture classes (we even had a barn!)...I took most of them and was greatly satisfied...

Also as an adult and college student currently, I don't find the ideologies of my professors really shaping my ideologies... An 'A' earned in sociological studies doesn't include my brainwashing or 'liberalization'. It didn't in high school either (just 6 years ago). I think our ideologies and foundation is set by our parents and own conclusions; schools have played little role in those things as far as I've seen with friends, acquaintances, and class mates.

By the way, I've only found 1 professor as of yet to be a 'hippy' per se. He liked to bang gongs, worked for a pharmaceutical company, and taught public speaking... Nicest guy I ever met, liberal as hell, and he didn't impose it on me or anyone else. I learned a lot from his class...

I'm super confused now too; I was just going to order a Lyman M die to aid in seating my cast boolits, should I reconsider?

[zdogk9]

I'm super confused now too; I was just going to order a Lyman M die to aid in seating my cast boolits, should I reconsider?

yes, buy it, good to have

[Recluse]

"We have a bunch of elitist class college educated narcissist who get hold of our brand name companies. If not simply foreign investors. They learn manufacturing from a bunch of long hair socialist college professors who follow the Japanese method. It’s not the American way and we should all reject it."

I'm trying real hard not to be pissed off by this generalization.

Prof,

Substitute "manufacturing" with "economics" or "business" or "operational production."

I've YET to meet a metallurgy professor or teacher, or machine-shop or auto-tech (name your "sweat of your brow combined with the brains between your ears" vocation) ever taught by long-haired socialist hippies. :)

I'm in a position to occasional mentor and offer life advice to high school students, and the biggest thing I hear from many of them is "Man, I'm just not cut out for college."

I encourage them to look at the blue-collar trades like plumbing, machinist, woodworking, electrician, auto mechanic, etc etc. My reasoning is, "When your toilet clogs and backs up on Friday night, you don't call your computer programmer or your accountant--you call a professional who can and will come out and fix it."

Likewise, I ask them when is the last time a CPA did electrical work for them on their home, or the last time an attorney did a brake job on their car for them, etc.

I'm a HUGE fan of the vocational education system and think that high-school counselors and educators need to be doing a helluva lot more promoting of it.

:coffee:

[theperfessor]

I have never figured out how a company whose name is linked to specific items, such as Colt and the Peacemaker or Lyman and bullet molds, could lose significant market share to startup companies. I really can't buy the excuse that "they're using obsolete equipment and worn out tooling", which I've often seen in print and on the forums. So what? A startup company probably has to start with no equipment to begin with and must obtain financing, facilities, and have good marketing. They must make new tooling and/or utilize advanced (CNC) machinery.

A well run existing company already has name recognition, facilities, and a lot better ability to get financing for modernization and new equipment acquisition.

And yet you see this sort of thing happen all the time. Why? There are a lot of reasons, and as I see it, all of them are caused by either bad management or bad government policy. Management cuts back on maintenance and doesn't replace worn out tooling. It doesn't actively seek out new technologies. It doesn't train its workers and doesn't encourage (or even actively discourages) feedback from the people most closely associated with making the product. It doesn't get worker buy-in or develop their employee's sense of pride in being associated with the company they work for. Pile over-regulation and socialist-driven tax policies on top of it and we end up where we are now.

And it's not a good place to be. But we can change that. We can do it at the ballot box, and we can do it with our attitude toward manufacturing and other skilled technical trades. And those of us involved daily in the education and training of the tradespeople, technicians and engineers of the future could use a little more support and a little less negative characterization of our role in the process. We see the problems and work to change things at whatever level we can.

Sorry if I'm a little touchy about this, but those of us on the front line aren't the problem, we're part of the solution.

[geargnasher]

Perfessor, I come from a long line of teachers, several on the college level. I'm the black sheep because my degrees are a BS in ME and an AAS in automotive service technology. I've seen more liberal hippie pinko second-hander looting bleedingheart whale-loving granola munchers teaching in universities than I ever did in the "real world". I'll also say that none of the aforementioned specimens ever associated with engineering, math, physics, or chemistry, since reality and concrete absolutes made them run away wailing and waving their arms in the air. Some people, in fact many people, on the front lines of education shouldn't be allowed to give an opinion about the weather, much less life subjects. May the force be with those of you who still fight the good fight, but my point is that our entire education system is riddled with the exact same problems that our governments and companies have, and like any institution, is only as good as the ideals of the people on the front lines. I've always found it ironic that those from whom I learned the most did their jobs in spite of the administration, rather than because of it.

Gear

[Recluse]

I have never figured out how a company whose name is linked to specific items, such as Colt and the Peacemaker or Lyman and bullet molds, could lose significant market share to startup companies. I really can't buy the excuse that "they're using obsolete equipment and worn out tooling", which I've often seen in print and on the forums. So what? A startup company probably has to start with no equipment to begin with and must obtain financing, facilities, and have good marketing. They must make new tooling and/or utilize advanced (CNC) machinery.

A well run existing company already has name recognition, facilities, and a lot better ability to get financing for modernization and new equipment acquisition.

And yet you see this sort of thing happen all the time. Why? There are a lot of reasons, and as I see it, all of them are caused by either bad management or bad government policy.

Remember that gov't policy affects the startup same as it does the existing company, so for the most part, that one is out.

Now, let's talk about bad management. That's the foundation of the problem. Consumers' never end quest for "bigger, newer, better, sexier, flashier. . . or something that is just plain different" is an existing company's biggest headache, and sometimes insurmountable problem.

Having spent twenty years in the marketing, advertising and public relations profession, I could write far more on this subject than what the forum would accept, but I'll try to be brief.

Toyota saw that there was a perception that its brand was "topping out" with the Camry, and during the time, sales began slipping to the Honda Accord. Toyota then launched their Lexus brand, and the rest is history. This forced Nissan to launch Infinity and Honda to launch Acura.

My wife's Avalon is basically an entry/mid-level Lexus, but the Lexus cost some 25% more. Why? Perception versus reality.

The perceptions we create, be they by advertising or by our own intuition, drive a lot of our purchasing decisions.

Remember back when generic groceries came in plain white boxes and cans? Sales spiked a little, then dropped out. The grocery store brands decided to start putting THEIR label and brand on those same white can/box goods, and now private brands in grocery stores often times have more market share than their national brand competitors.

I remember when Glock came out. Ugliest damned gun I'd ever seen and the USMS had to literally force me to put it through our weapons testing. And even though it outperformed every other brand we explored and tested (Beretta, Sig, S&W), I still didn't like it.

However, the NEW kids wearing badges or those who were trying to wear a badge absolutely LOVED it. It was new and exciting!

Still fired the same exact 9mm round that my Browning Hi-Power does, same as the Sig P226 and Taurus PT92. But the Glock was "space-age" in its materials and look and appearance.

That made it different.

S&W and Beretta management sat on their butts and insisted that Glocks would "never catch on." That is due to a term a business partner and I coined in a book in which we referred to that attitude as "corporate arrogance."

Translated: We've been in business/position/power longer, therefore we know more than anyone else and it is impossible for us to be wrong.

You see that a lot in today's established brands, which is why you're starting to see more c-level employee turnover and outright bootings out the door.

Lyman? While they continued to make a satisfactory product, they did not improve on their product. Lee came out with the Classic Cast series of presses, and put one helluva dent in Lyman's press sales. And I mean, one helluva dent. Same with RCBS and their Rockchucker.

But what did Hornady do? Hornady came out with the Lock 'n Load presses (single-stage and progressive) AND promoted them with their famous 1000 free bullets offer.

That just about obliterated Lyman from the reloading scene. That progressive Hornady also gave Dillon a mild case of indigestion for a while, but Dillon, unlike Lyman, is far more agile and unencumbered by stodgy management.

Second thing about Lyman: Their customer service went to hell in a handbasket. Nothing, and I repeat nothing will sink a brand that is perceived to be boring than bad customer service. Throw in the fact that Lyman was not improving and worse yet, seemed to be slipping in the quality department, and the floodgates begin to open.

Now look at Mihec and NOE and LBT and other small mold makers. They have a backlog of orders. Great, new products and with superb customer service. What's more, they're a direct order--no need to mess around with Midway or MidSouth and their ridiculous shipping rates. Order direct, it gets made and shipped to you--and you get what you paid for in terms of quality.

Then you have the final attribute in this process which is word of authoritative mouth. We have 16,000 members here, all of varying levels of skill and experience not just in casting, but in reloading as well as shooting.

When the top experienced casters here come out and publicly say, "To hell with Lyman, I'm sick of their poor quality and lousy customer service" and then give anecdotal evidence to back those statements up, just how many rookie or novice casters or reloaders are going to chance their hard-earned cash with Lyman?

Not very many. If any at all.

But, that money is going to go somewhere. . .

There was an old saying in my business many years ago that said, "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door."

Well, we have some mold makers here that ARE building a better mold and our (Cast Boolits) world IS beating a path to their doorstep.

Look at the Lee Classic Turret--perhaps THE most popular press for novice reloaders, and MANY experienced reloaders are buying it as well. When is the last time you heard or read anyone raving over their Lyman turret press?

Close to home and on a smaller scale, I still remember when Dan announced his Bullplate. His last sentence in his launch and explanation was, "Casting just got easier."

HELL of a tagline! And you know what, he was--and is--right! Bullplate DOES make casting MUCH easier. And Dan and Tina? You can't find better people to deal with.

White Label Lubes? Same thing. If there is a better lube out there than Carnauba Red, I sure haven't heard of it. Glenn and Leah? Again, you can't find better people to deal with.

Big brands/business might not go completely under, but I still believe that "Necessity is the Mother of Invention." When Dan saw that traditional (and many non-traditional) mold lubes weren't doing as good as he thought they should, or could, here comes Bullplate. Ditto for Glenn and his lubes.

That's my VERY condensed take on it.

:coffee:

[geargnasher]

:shock:

Gear

[Dale53]

Gentlemen;
This is one of the most thought provoking threads I have seen ANYWHERE!

Thank you for a VERY good read!

By the way, I have a high school education. I was raised by a high level tool maker (jig and fixture man) who owned and ran an appliance repair shop and hardware store. I started with him when I was fourteen. He was a serious gunny, too and jump started my interest in shooting, casting bullets, and reloading. My Junior and Senior year in High School was spent in a WONDERFUL Vocational Machine Shop. It (and my father's training) gave me skills that I used all my life (including NOW). I graduated from High School in the top 5% of my graduating class (academically, also). I ended up a Major Case Claims Representative for a major insurance company and my mechanical skills kept me at the forefront of my chosen profession. Half of my business was manufacturing concerns and their liability issues (the other half was personal lines of Auto, Home, and Personal Liability). Hardly a day goes by that I don't give thanks for that back ground. It not only helped me greatly in my job, but was responsible for major personal satisfaction whether I was shooting, casting bullets, reloading or maintaining and racing motorcycles.

One thing that saddens me is that when I was a kid, everywhere around me there were others who were working on something. They maintained their own power mowers, remodeled and built add-ons to their homes, or built power boats, canoes, and kayaks. I don't see any of that any more. Those serious hobby skills built something into our DNA that left us unsatisfied with "just ok" and we worked HARD to make everything around us BETTER.

Too many kids today, have never tasted adversity until they get grown. They often can't take "no" for an answer and end up as a suicide. A girl friend drops them and they want to kill her. That was a VERY seldom thing in my day. We just "manned up" and went elsewhere or SOLVED our problem. Simply because our lifestyle TRAINED us to be SOLVERS not complainers.

"nuff said"...

Dale53

[NHlever]

Well said Dale 53! Yes, many of those things seem to be more lacking today.. When I ran the Tool, and Die department where I worked, I always tried to keep a couple of apprentices coming along, not only for their good, but for mine as well. (Puppies are fun) I found that once a person, man, or woman, had figured out that they would need a skill, or education to get where they wanted to go that we could work with them very well. So many though just didn't have the work ethic, or desire to view a CNC machine as much more than a video game. I outsourced quite a bit of work when we were burried to local shops too. I found that many places could make a pile of parts all day long, but few could put them together. Now, the folks that were raised without much extra, and had to make things work growing up were a whole different story, and I surrounded myself with as many of them as I could find.

[Bret4207]

"We have a bunch of elitist class college educated narcissist who get hold of our brand name companies. If not simply foreign investors. They learn manufacturing from a bunch of long hair socialist college professors who follow the Japanese method. It’s not the American way and we should all reject it."

I'm trying real hard not to be pissed off by this generalization.

Keith, I think folks like you are the odd ducks in this discussion. No too many long haired socialist types frequenting cast boolit sites, now are there?:mrgreen:

[NVScouter]

Three more:

The end of truely personaly INVESTING in your compay was killed by the 401K replacing retirements. I retirement you can pack up and leave with does not instill worker loyalty.

China:

1) Good for them
2) Our demand economy may be three times bigger, but thier production is massive compared to ours. An economy has many different facets so beware of a generic Newsweek economy statement.

Hippy Teachers:
I hated going back to school because so many of the 90/101/201 teachers are ultra libral hippies in thier 20's and 30's. I want to pay to learn something from somebody that has used it in the field of their choosing. These folks survive in the school system with no practical knowledge of its use.
I stayed in my Geology class even though I got a D that hurt my GPA. Why?? He was a brutal teacher just out of 25 years of Mining. We finished two course books, a workbook, and knew more then the 201 students hands down. We started with 30 students and finished with 6. Best class ever and worth my money!

[GabbyM]

"We have a bunch of elitist class college educated narcissist who get hold of our brand name companies. If not simply foreign investors. They learn manufacturing from a bunch of long hair socialist college professors who follow the Japanese method. It’s not the American way and we should all reject it."

I'm trying real hard not to be pissed off by this generalization.

Suppose I deserve an F in sensitivity there.
Was referring to the management types who take control of companies with the express purpose of running them into the ground as a means of achieving an end goal. I’m not talking about incompetence but rather intentional destruction of a company. Engineers and production methods people don’t do that.

I was on the short end of one of these plant closing myself and it aint pretty. Ingersoll-Rand purchased the plant then commenced to manipulate and sabotage production. They of course achieved there goal and closed the plant. Moving it to a non union shop out of state. Twenty-nine acres of heavy industry building was dismantled and shipped to Japan.

Then I worked at Caterpillar Tractor Co. for over a year. Talk about a total nightmare.

Received a class action settlement from Caterpillar a few weeks ago. They manipulated our 401K investments to enrich the pockets of individuals who were in control positions at our expense. I’d not been there to long so was only out abut $2,900. My check from the settlement was a little over forty dollars. None of those people were prosecuted for a crime. I could go on and on with accounts like this. But you all live in the same world as I so just look around.

[GabbyM]

Ran into another Lyman mould to send back for a re cut. #358430 round now 195 grain. One cavity drops .359” while the other is .356”. This is the typical issue I run into with Lyman moulds. Looks like they run a dual spindle machine and only see fit to issue out one good cherry cutter and one sharpened to many times to be ground under diameter.

I’ll look up by purchase history on the web based catalog company. Probably Mid-South.
Print out the invoice with this mould on it as proof of purchase. Box it up in a USPS small flat rate box for $5.20. Enclose a polite note along with two cast bullets. Addressed to the service address provided on Lyman’s web page. Won’t be wasting any time with phone calls. In the past Lyman has re cut the moulds with what appeared to be a new cherry. Always received near perfect moulds back but I’m out the $5 postage. Takes a month or more.

[PatMarlin]

So many though just didn't have the work ethic, or desire to view a CNC machine as much more than a video game.

Because sitting down and learning CNC G-code takes effort. Hard concentration and determination for a while, days and months even of effort.

Kids have been coddled and told that trying was good enough to the point where they have a switch in the brain that shuts off when the computer doesn't prompt them through the process.

You know my dad was a real abusive *******, but I need to go and thank him for forcing me to learn. It has paid off. I came home with a note from my teacher in about the 4th grade saying Pat did not know his times tables. He sat with me in a room for the weekend, not letting anyone in or out until I had them memorized and drilled them in my head over and over. It was horrible, shocking, and I walked out of there and never forgot them,.

Blew the teachers mind... :mrgreen:

[dodgyrog]

GBertolet: Star dies now that's one I haven't heard. lathesmith to your rescue the next time you need a die. He's a member here and will make you a die that won't be wrong.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=2206

I've just received two new dies from Lathesmith - excellent gear. I'll be back for more.:bigsmyl2:

[SkookumJeff]

Because sitting down and learning CNC G-code takes effort. Hard concentration and determination for a while, days and months even of effort.

CNC G-codes. M-codes too! I've been working as an IT analyst developing CAD/CAM software for about 15 years now. I haven't manually programmed a CNC for about 25 years now. I struggle to remember what I had for breakfast, but I still remember the most common standard G & M codes for CNC mill and lathe controllers. Ahh the good old days.

It's tragic what happens with kids these days. IMO...much of their trouble comes from us, the adults. We don't let kids work anymore, most kids don't see their first paying job until they enter the adult workforce. Government regulations forbid kids to perform almost all the jobs I held as a kid, and I had a lot of different jobs as a kid. I started working at the age of 9, picking produce for the local farmers. Growing up poor, the money I earned went to my folks for school clothes. I had one job or another from that point on and have been employed to this day. I'm 53.

From all the attention and focus given to self esteem these days, kids growing up are not given the opportunity to fail. What success I've had in life, much of it comes from the many failures I've had growing up and learned from. I've seen some youth sports where they don't even keep score so kids who lose aren't subjected to the indignity of losing. Learning to overcome adversity and recover from failure is important in life. It's no wonder these kids struggle when they become adults. Not too long from now these kids will be running our businesses and running our country. All is not lost, I know of some great kids with good heads on their shoulders, but they seem to be few in number....

I really do worry about where we're headed. I've worked in aerospace manufacturing all my life. I see stuff these days that make me wonder if we still know how to drill a hole or run a project. Our workforce is aging and we are retiring now. Much of our current skill base will be gone in another 10 years or so. We struggle to find anyone under the age of 30 who has any tangible skills or any kind of useful experience whatsoever for working in a company like mine. I'm sure Lyman and any other large manufacturer still in operation in this country is having the same trouble. If things are bad now, just wait, it's most likely to get much worse before it gets better, if it gets better.

[jbelder]

I bought a mould a couple years ago from Lyman for my Muzzleloader. It was the Lyman #508656 plains bullet. The Midway catalog lists this mould at .508 and 395 gr. I got the mould and I NEVER got a bullet out of it to go more than .504 The best groups I could get out of the bullets with that mould were 10" at 100 yards or bigger. So I sent it back. Lyman looked it over and sent it back to me and said the mould was within specs. I sold the hunk of cr@p and told the guy that bought it everything that I knew about it and that I sent it back. I never heard if he had any luck with it. Ron

I think it must be hit or miss! I bought that same mould last year but in 54 cal and had Buckshot hollow point it. I can shoot 3" groups all day at 100 yards. I did notice some tooling scratches on the nose but the H.P took care of that mostly.

[theperfessor]

SkookumJeff -

I make all my students program program our CNC machines using a text editor. They must LEARN G & M coding, not learn how to use software that writes the code for them. In another year we will evaluate some CAM packages and buy some software, but even then as long as I have anything to say about it they will not use it in the lab where we cover basic CNC machine operation, it will be reserved for an advanced (probably elective) class.

One of my grads had worked for a local wood products/custom cabinet shop for a number of years, starting out at the bottom as a sander/shop helper and working his way up to being a project manager. After taking my class and seeing the advantages of CNC he talked to his boss about buying a CNC wood router to do some work they were farming out to another shop. He took in some projects he did in my class and convinced his boss that he could set up and program one. After he graduated he was given a promotion and a raise commensurate with his abilities. One of his first assignments was to evaluate some CNC routers. He went to several vendors and finally decided on a machine, which the company purchased. The machine came with some CAM software that worked pretty good but would occasionally produce some bad code, not an unusual situation. Every time they had a problem he was able to read the code, identify the problem, and set things right.

He and I stay in touch, and he flat out told me that I should NEVER stop teaching students how to write basic CNC code, that being able to read and correct bad code was the only way he was able to keep production going and meet their delivery dates. It also made it a lot easier to work with their vendor to correct the problems, he could point out exactly which lines of code were bad and what the proper codes should be. It also impressed the snot out of his boss and made him a VIP at his job.

I teach a power hydraulics class. One of my students who graduated many years ago used to complain rather vociferously about my grading. He was very technically smart but lacking somewhat in his writing and communication skills. Students are required to write up eight lab reports during the semester. We use some old but well maintained Sperry-Vickers lab training benches to make all kinds of hydraulic systems. Students have to build the circuits, gather data, and write up the results. He always did well on the math and it was obvious that he understood the concepts but his reports were a grammatical train wreck and I hammered him every time for it. I often heard things such as "this isn't a d**n English class" from him when I handed back his reports.

Fast forward a year after graduation. He was hired by a large national corporation as a maintenance engineer for one of their divisions that produced a proprietary plastic resin. Every three months they were required to give a report on the previous quarter's performance and request funding from a high level management team for the next quarter's projects. Despite being a newbie and one of the youngest engineers there he was successful in gaining more funding than almost anyone else. Why? Because he could write a clear, concise, and understandable report that sold the management on his ideas.

He called me back after he had been on the job for a year and told me to NEVER stop grading lab reports the way I did then and still do now, that being able to communicate effectively was as important any technical skill he'd learned. He used his knowledge of hydraulics occasionally but used his communications skills every day and it made him an effective engineer and manager.

If there is any trend in education that scares me it is the national mania for trying to teach high-level skills to students that haven't mastered the basics of reading, writing, math, and logic. I can teach a kid that knows the basics almost anything they need to know about advanced concepts in engineering and technology, because a student with the basic skills can pretty much teach themselves.

Sorry for rambling on a bit here, but this thread seemed to grow beyond the OP's comments and I wanted to clarify where I stand on some things and why I feel the way I do.

GabbyM-

I didn't take your comments personally and I hope you don't take anything I've said personally either. I know there are many bubble-headed professors in our Universities that have some wrong-headed and totally off the wall socio-political views, I have had them as teachers and some of them are employed where I work. But very few of them are in engineering or technology, because we have to work in the real world and get real results from our efforts, and Marxism/socialism doesn't work in the real world and us nuts-and-bolts types know that.

[PatMarlin]

I sat this time last winter scratching my head in front of my Fagor CNC control for months and figured out programming, line by line. Destroyed some tools but finally learned it.

Now I just purchase a lite cad/cam software program mainly to use as an editor for all of my existing programs to do caliber changes because it will quickly re wrap and re number the order of line code when I make changes in the middle of a program. Of course then I can send it back via DNC to the control.

Million times faster than entering line by line manually in the control like I have been all along. It has full conversational programming that I will start using on my 3 axes mill, just for speeding things up. The owner and author of the software company said I was way ahead of the game by learning g/m-code so I'm glad I did.


http://www.patmarlins.com/Commmandcentral.jpg


I want to learn 3D cad someday for doing real complex shapes and projects.

[ahhbach]

This is even more off topic, but a good article by Jay Leno on machinists:

http://www.kanabco.com/vms/callingallmachinists.html

That is a pretty powerful article.

Brian Murphy

[Dale53]

theperfessor;
Thanks to you and others on board here for giving me some hope that at least SOME really "get it". It is some comfort to someone who has been hearing and seeing very little positive in the world around me. Almost every day, tho' I run into a positive "marker" - as a for instance, the other day I was in a store and a very pretty young lady clerk was extremely helpful. Not long ago, I took a printer in for repairs and the counter man offered to carry it to my car for me! I am a "Certififed Old Fart" but I do not appear to be feeble (and am far from it) but was sure nice that the gentleman OFFERED...

There are positive indications - we just have to acknowledge and build on those positive "markers"...

FWIW
Dale53

[ahhbach]

It's tragic what happens with kids these days. IMO...much of their trouble comes from us, the adults. We don't let kids work anymore, most kids don't see their first paying job until they enter the adult workforce. Government regulations forbid kids to perform almost all the jobs I held as a kid, and I had a lot of different jobs as a kid. I started working at the age of 9, picking produce for the local farmers. Growing up poor, the money I earned went to my folks for school clothes. I had one job or another from that point on and have been employed to this day. I'm 53.

From all the attention and focus given to self esteem these days, kids growing up are not given the opportunity to fail. What success I've had in life, much of it comes from the many failures I've had growing up and learned from. I've seen some youth sports where they don't even keep score so kids who lose aren't subjected to the indignity of losing. Learning to overcome adversity and recover from failure is important in life. It's no wonder these kids struggle when they become adults. Not too long from now these kids will be running our businesses and running our country. All is not lost, I know of some great kids with good heads on their shoulders, but they seem to be few in number....

I really do worry about where we're headed. I've worked in aerospace manufacturing all my life. I see stuff these days that make me wonder if we still know how to drill a hole or run a project. Our workforce is aging and we are retiring now. Much of our current skill base will be gone in another 10 years or so. We struggle to find anyone under the age of 30 who has any tangible skills or any kind of useful experience whatsoever for working in a company like mine. I'm sure Lyman and any other large manufacturer still in operation in this country is having the same trouble. If things are bad now, just wait, it's most likely to get much worse before it gets better, if it gets better.



I too agree it is the parents along with the schools that do it. Nobody wants their kid to be the person to dig the ditch. Kids of today are never cut from the team, letting the first rejection come with their first job interview. The higher sense of self in these kids means they feel demeaned by physical work and that it somehow is beneath them.

The other day I was talking about a friend that hires day laborers - he said the Mexican day laborers have formed a loose union for higher wages he said he'll have to go with the russians to keep his wages down. I asked him why he doesn't hire kids to do the work he said they aren't interested and almost no one answers his ads... That is so sad

Brian Murphy

[AZ-Stew]

I want to learn 3D cad someday for doing real complex shapes and projects.

Contact me. I do it for a living. To my knowledge, I'm the first at my company to use solid modeling. I started 24 years ago and have used four different 3D solid modelers. The good tools aren't cheap, but they're highly capable. Add-on software can generate G code from the model.

As for the start of this article, I believe unions had something to so with the demise of manufacturing in the US. Their greed has run the American auto industry into the ground. Add in the excessive environmental regulations, and we've doomed ourselves. Don't get me wrong, some environmental restrictions are necessary (we can't pour mercury into a river upstream of the city's fresh water treatment plant), but we can all think of times and places where the EPA has overstepped sane regulation.

Just a not to mention that some of our most highly regarded firearms and loading tools manufacturers aren't exempt from shipping the odd mistake...

I recently returned an RCBS .22 cal boolit mould because the sprue holes weren't centered over the boolit bases. Both cavities were offset different amounts. This was due to the sprue plate holes being closer together than the cavities and the sprue plate rotating too far in the closed condition. They sent me a new mould.

I also bought one of the first T/C Contender .45-70 barrels. Couldn't get it to shoot worth carp. I slugged the bore and found that the grooves of the rifling had a smaller radius than the lands. In cross section the grooves were like a squashed Quonset hut. The groove diameter was on the order of .465. I called them and explained what I had. They told me they knew about these barrels and none were supposed to have left the plant. I sent it back and got a correctly rifled barrel that shoots just fine.

No one's purfekt.

Regards,

Stew

[HangFireW8]

Gentlemen;
This is one of the most thought provoking threads I have seen

Now that it has turned to CAD/CAM coding, I agree, but before that, it is the usual whining about management, unions, american workers, kids today, and telling off anyone who disagrees that they don't get the point.

Well, I get the point, some here are ready to write off an American manufacturing company, but I'm not. That doesn't mean I don't get the point. It means I disagree with the point.

And oh, about kids, the same thing is said of every generation. I call it the Mall Syndrome, someone goes shopping and complains about the oddly dressed kids at the mall, and bemoans the future of their generation. I see editorials every year in the local fishwrapper on this topic. Never mind that the kids that are the future are working behind the cash register, or at home doing their homework.

But, don't let me stand in the way if you want to whine.

-HF

[Bret4207]

SkookumJeff -



He called me back after he had been on the job for a year and told me to NEVER stop grading lab reports the way I did then and still do now, that being able to communicate effectively was as important any technical skill he'd learned. He used his knowledge of hydraulics occasionally but used his communications skills every day and it made him an effective engineer and manager.



That transfers over into a lot of areas Prof. I've read reports of burgalries or assaults that were so mangled and disjointed you couldn't tell heads from tails. It's even worse when it's family issues and you have 3 or 4 defendants and victims with the same last names. I always tried to make my reports read like a Tom Clancy novel where you could easily understand what was what. I didn't always succeed, but it was noted that my more complex reports were easy to understand.

I hated school. HATED it. Nowadays I'd be labeled ADD or something. Your courses sound like the type of thing that would have held my interest. Good on you!

[XWrench3]

wow, i thought lyman stuff was good. but unfortunatly, it seems to be a common practice with companies in the last 40 years to sit on their a$$ and live off their name. until either they HAVE to fix what is wrong, or go out of business. i blame a large part of this on our "higher" education system. i have seen way to many colledge graduates that apply that line of thinking in most all of their "management techniques". i actually started taking some "business management classes" in the eighties, and that is the kind of **** they were teaching. it went so against my grain, i dropped out. i have to be able to live with myself at the end of the day. and screwing everyone all day long for the sake of a few dollars is nothing i could live with.

[unclebill]

ok
let me start out by saying i dont know much of anything.
but i am always willing to learn.
here is an example
2 years ago i bought a vintage jeep.
i bought a bunch of books,got online for research
and then bought the tools needed.
in 18 months i restored a kaiser/willys 1963 cj5 in my gravel driveway. (no most of it wasnt fun)

i rented my extra bedroom to a 30 year old college student.
this guy had no idea where where to put antifreeze in his own car.
was completely at a loss as to how to make stew.
couldnt change a tire
it goes on and on.

the ONLY thing this student knew how to do was talk.

it was weird to talk to a grown man that had no idea how to do simple daily tasks.

i felt like i was talking to a martian.

[unclebill]

but to be fair
now i have a 21 year old montana boy renting that room.
he is a subaru mechanic
an EMT
and a full time student.
so not all of them are worthless.

1st week he was here he sharpened all of my kitchen knives.[smilie=w:

[theperfessor]

I work with (mostly) young adults every day. I don't think the kids today are any more screwed up than we were when we were in our teens and twenties, and I don't think we were any more or less screwed up than the generations that preceded us. I remember when my wife and I were first dating in high school, I had long hair and a ZZ Top beard. My lady's father didn't much like me and especially didn't like my choice of hair styles. Then one day my lady's mom produced a letter from HER father that was written to her detailing how HER choice for a husband was poor because he had a mustache and hair longer than a buzz cut. That ended most of the (public) grumbling from my lady's father. He also was somewhat of a racist, declaring that while Black's could play muscle sports like football and baseball they could never be good at "skilled" games such as golf (he was a golfer). I wish he had lived long enough to watch Tiger Woods.

Don't judge all kids by the actions of a few. We complain about how the antis want to restrict our right to own guns because of a the actions of a few, and then turn around and pontificate about how bad all kids are because of the actions and behaviors of a few. It's hypocritical.

Don't tell me that the young folks serving in our military in Iraq and Afghanistan are any less courageous than the young folks of earlier generations that served in 'Nam, Korea, Europe, or the Pacific.

Kids today want the same things we wanted when we were there age. Let's get off their backs a little bit and show a little patience and help them grow up. Whether we like it or not they will be the ones who will take over from us and lead this country. And they have a lot bigger and more complex problems to face than we did.

[Recluse]

Don't tell me that the young folks serving in our military in Iraq and Afghanistan are any less courageous than the young folks of earlier generations that served in 'Nam, Korea, Europe, or the Pacific.

Damn straight!


Kids today want the same things we wanted when we were there age. Let's get off their backs a little bit and show a little patience and help them grow up. Whether we like it or not they will be the ones who will take over from us and lead this country. And they have a lot bigger and more complex problems to face than we did.

Kids today are only as good as we who choose--or choose not to--interact with them, teach them, mentor them, encourage them, etc.

If we simply snub kids, treat them like idiots, etc etc, then we'll most certainly reap what we sow.

Why do so many young people who come out of the military impress us and so well? Because someone INVESTED IN THEM. Doesn't have to be money--time, effort, and empathy go a long ways, especially with many of today's kids who come from broken homes.

I don't think kids are any smarter any dumber than they were when we were growing up. Rather, I think their skill sets and interests and aptitudes have shifted to better fit the times and situations they live in. They know about smart phones--we know about phone books and looking up information the old way.

They know about search engines--we know about combustible engines.

I've learned as much from some of the young people I've taken under my wing, so to speak, about their world and their gadgets and in return, I've taught them things like how to shoot, how to change the oil (and other minor maintenance) on their cars, etc.

We get out of our young people what we as a generation put into them.

:coffee:

[NVScouter]

Damn straight!



Kids today are only as good as we who choose--or choose not to--interact with them, teach them, mentor them, encourage them, etc.

If we simply snub kids, treat them like idiots, etc etc, then we'll most certainly reap what we sow.

Why do so many young people who come out of the military impress us and so well? Because someone INVESTED IN THEM. Doesn't have to be money--time, effort, and empathy go a long ways, especially with many of today's kids who come from broken homes.

I don't think kids are any smarter any dumber than they were when we were growing up. Rather, I think their skill sets and interests and aptitudes have shifted to better fit the times and situations they live in. They know about smart phones--we know about phone books and looking up information the old way.

They know about search engines--we know about combustible engines.

I've learned as much from some of the young people I've taken under my wing, so to speak, about their world and their gadgets and in return, I've taught them things like how to shoot, how to change the oil (and other minor maintenance) on their cars, etc.

We get out of our young people what we as a generation put into them.

:coffee:

Excellently said!

[theperfessor]

Some of the best students I've had are getting their degrees courtesy of the military. They're organized, have a lot of self-discipline, work hard, and are very dependable. Not necessarily straight A students but solid citizens that try real hard. No problem placing these guys (and gals) in jobs when they are available.

[Murphy]

Lyman,

For as long as I can recall Lyman was the leader in boolit molds and casting items. I've gotten a mold or two in the past that was a bit undersized but not to the point I was for giving up on Lyman.

I for one, would hate to see Lyman go under. We have enough unemployment in this country as it is. This is not to say the decline in the quality is acceptable, but let's not pray for their demise either.

Hopefully the heads at Lyman will come to their senses eventually and recognize the fact people are, and will, continue to cast boolits.

Makes one wonder if just the members of "Castboolits" alone began an email campaign to get their attention, but as individuals. I think several THOUSAND emails or calls may get their attention

Just my 2 cents,

Murphy

[Dale53]

I work with (mostly) young adults every day. I don't think the kids today are any more screwed up than we were when we were in our teens and twenties, and I don't think we were any more or less screwed up than the generations that preceded us. I remember when my wife and I were first dating in high school, I had long hair and a ZZ Top beard. My lady's father didn't much like me and especially didn't like my choice of hair styles. Then one day my lady's mom produced a letter from HER father that was written to her detailing how HER choice for a husband was poor because he had a mustache and hair longer than a buzz cut. That ended most of the (public) grumbling from my lady's father. He also was somewhat of a racist, declaring that while Black's could play muscle sports like football and baseball they could never be good at "skilled" games such as golf (he was a golfer). I wish he had lived long enough to watch Tiger Woods.

Don't judge all kids by the actions of a few. We complain about how the antis want to restrict our right to own guns because of a the actions of a few, and then turn around and pontificate about how bad all kids are because of the actions and behaviors of a few. It's hypocritical.

Don't tell me that the young folks serving in our military in Iraq and Afghanistan are any less courageous than the young folks of earlier generations that served in 'Nam, Korea, Europe, or the Pacific.

Kids today want the same things we wanted when we were there age. Let's get off their backs a little bit and show a little patience and help them grow up. Whether we like it or not they will be the ones who will take over from us and lead this country. And they have a lot bigger and more complex problems to face than we did.

I must "selectively, but respectfully, disagree with you". The top 50% of our students in public schools through high school DO meet those criteria and ESPECIALLY those who serve in the military. However, the bottom 25% do not and the next 25% are certainly questionable. I live in a town of about 70,000 people not far from Cincinnati (the closest "big" city to us). 50% of the students from Cincinnati City Schools (which are FREE, by the way) do NOT graduate. I wouldn't count on much from those young men and women. The people whom you come in contact with are almost invariably high school graduates. While we have consistently made it EASIER to graduate, they have still shown that they know how to FINISH. Those who do not graduate from high school have almost NO chance at all to get a decent job, EVER. I have talked to many employers over the years. Often when they get an application, the first thing they do is contact the local high school (as one Body Shop Manager from a GM dealership told me, if they won't attend high school they won't show up for work).

The failure to attend school is almost entirely a lack of proper parenting, IMHO. Schools are not the problem, parents are the problem (along with too many one parent families, babies born out of wedlock, kids raised on the streets and falling prey to the drug dealers). In Cincinnati we have at LEAST one shooting a day and more often than not, several. You are not even safe stopping for gas in broad daylight. The rather small town I live in, is not crime free but is not bad at all compared to our larger cities. A shooting is rare and generally solved rather quickly. Our graduation rate is 94%...

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[theperfessor]

I don't want to see any American business fail, and I dont want to see American workers get laid off. I've been through that myself. But I think Lyman has missed a lot of opportunities to grow their mold making business. Will they do group buys for specialty/custom molds or special runs of some of the designs they made famous and have discontinued? A lot of the group buys I see use Lyman/Ideal model numbers!

How long did it take them to stop using a sprue plate gouging lock washer on their four cavity molds? What are their QC standards and are they meeting them?

I'd love to see Lyman succeed and prosper. I think we all would. But somebody at Lyman needs to want to succeed as badly as we do for it to happen.

[Recluse]

I for one, would hate to see Lyman go under. We have enough unemployment in this country as it is. This is not to say the decline in the quality is acceptable, but let's not pray for their demise either.

Lyman's future is one-hundred percent in their own hands, but they're fumbling it away and are too arrogant to even realize it, let alone admit it.

They have the brand, the brand equity, the products, etc etc. But they refuse to tidy up their QC on products, refuse to up their customer-service, refuse to realize that the reloader and bullet-caster IS their business, and they still try to price as though they are a premium brand. And finally, they refuse to come up with anything new and/or innovative. Dillon and Lee, of the majors, lead the pack in innovation and both are doing just fine. I'm trying to remember the last time RCBS came up with anything new, but at the same time their QC has been excellent and their customer service absolutely top-shelf.

Every single facet I've listed here is squarely within the control of senior management at Lyman, yet nothing substantive is being done. Only lip service.

So once again, Lyman's future is one-hundred percent in their own hands. If they continue down the road they're on, we won't HAVE to pray for their demise--they'll do it to themselves.

I'd rather they succeed, but I'm not optimistic.

:coffee:

[theperfessor]

Dale, I can't argue with anything you've said. I realize that I see a non-typical cross section of the American population when I'm working at my job. I've even been accused from time to time of being too optimistic in my outlook for the future of our country. And I recognize the problem of high school dropout rates and so forth. The University where I work spends a whole lot of time and money offering pre-college level courses all the way down to basic arithmetic and reading, subjects that should never need to be taught at the College/University level. We could certainly do better. But my choice in life is to be as upbeat as I can while still recognizing the problems we have in society. I don't want to be a gloomy, depressing person to be around. And I can't educate the whole world, but I can try to educate the kids sitting right in front of me in my classes.

I often get to talk to parents of prospective students. A few years ago the father of a prospect emphasized to me the quality of his son's parochial high school education. He told me that he didn't think much of the local public high schools. His son just "wasn't learning anything" so the parents pulled him out and enrolled him in a Catholic school. Not only did it cost them several thousand dollars a year for tuition, but there were also several mandatory attendance parent-teacher-student conferences every semester and requirements to "volunteer" to serve on various committees responsible for different types of student activities. And when they did all this, their son suddenly got smarter. Duh. I wonder if their son would have gotten smarter if they had done the same things at the public school they rejected. I know when I was a substitute high school teacher twenty five years ago the only parents that would show up at open house were the parents of kids that weren't having problems. The same parents were the ones that volunteered to work at various school activities. I think there is a correlation here somewhere.

[tackstrp]

Tjhe old stuff from the 60 and 70's was great, but customer service has been good. Have not purchased anything new in many years. Just replacement parts for the 450. Sold all lyman dies long ago. All lee now because of weight of the lyman molds and strength in my left arm.

Have an old 450 sizer from the 70's updated with new 4500 handle. Sizer dies from the same time period. 356 358 and 429. Which reminds me . need to list the 429 in the classifieds. Sure is full of dried lube. Have only one mold that is not a tumble lube, and that is the lee 356-102-1R, i want to try running a few in the sizer, before i put the entire lot up for sale. Cold this week in texas 15 degrees in garage, so maybe next week.

Sundog posted a suggestion to dip the TL bullets rather than swill around in a tub.

[PAT303]

Maybe we should find out who runs the casting side of things at Lyman and send him a link to this site and to this thread and get the man/woman involved with the people that buys his/hers product. Pat

[Rich/WIS]

I have used Lyman since the early 70's with very few problems. My most recent acquisition was a 45 mold and it works fine and casts bullets that are accurate in my SA 1911A1. Still use the Spartan press I bought in 71 0r 72, only issue was the handle broke, and it was replaced with a phone call.

Re kids today the problem is not any one thing. Some is parenting (or lack thereof), some is teachers (a lot of people with teaching degrees should be in another line of work), some is the school (yes there are bad ones), some is popular culture (wanting to be cool, a lot of drama), and some is that kids are individuals (some are faster or slower learners, and more or less motivated); a one size analysis does not fit all. My daughter teaches alternative ed, she gets the kids that aren't making it in normal classes (i.e. the problem children, social otcasts, dummies). Surprisingly they do well in a non traditional environment away from their peers and she has the "knack" for motivating them so they do well. The program is also for those doing poorly and need an alternative to traditional class work to graduate. When they enter the program they are tested to determine what areas they need help in and it is interesting that most of these kids who are flunking out will score close to or better than the "bright kids" on tests of basic skills. Most of those who graduate go on to college, tech school, skilled trades, or into the military.

My daughters observation has been that given the home life of many it isn't surprising that they don't do well, but that they do as well as they do. And given a little help and encouragement they get past the rough spots and go on to better things. Teachers are paid for their work but when former students tell her or other staff that their lives were changed for the better, as the ads say "priceless". Those of you who posted who work with young people will know what I mean.

Didn't mean to ramble on, but don't sell todays kids short. Besides that it doesn't pay to be mean, remember, they will get to pick your nursing home.

[Bret4207]

Maybe we should find out who runs the casting side of things at Lyman and send him a link to this site and to this thread and get the man/woman involved with the people that buys his/hers product. Pat

I believe that's been tried several times. I'm afraid it's simply a matter of finances. As I said, they make far more profit off sunglasses, to say nothing of recoil pads and handgun grips, then they ever will off casting equipment. If you loose and unprofitable part of your business, who cares?! It's a monkey off their back.


Say what you want about todays kids and parents. I know this much, traditional parenting where you work with your kid and try to lead by example has little appeal compared to sex, drugs and rock and roll. That 14-25 age area is where you lose them. It's getting younger too. Sometimes no matter how much the parent tries there's no stopping a kid bent on self destruction.

[bowfin]

RECLUSE HIT THE BULLSEYE!!

Kids are what we make of them. My wife is a teacher's aide in kindergarten. One kid comes in the first day all spit and polish, knowing how to write his name and count to 100. The next kid comes in with having had no breakfast, wearing mismatched socks and his sister's too small shirt (because he had to find his own clothes for that day), and doesn't have a vocabulary of 60 words...at the age of five!!

This isn't happening in the ghettos, this is in small town Nebraska. Many kids are lacking basic grownup behaviors because they are being reared by a mother and or father (usually the "or" part) with no parenting skills and no desire to obtain them, because they are themselves perpetually stuck in adolescence.

So what are WE going to do about it? Write off these kids???