Got this question e-mailed to me

[Gunload Master]

I got this e-mailed to me and thought I would throw it up for discussion. Thanks!

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Message: I have a Lee four position turrent press, reloading for a S&W 40 cal M&P. Currently loading 170 grain lead bullets. According to the Lee book I purchased, max length of the assembled shell is 1.135. The factory sheels I have purchased are aprox 1.120. That is the length I have set my press for. When I shoot till empty, the slide stays back. When I push in the next loaded clip, with my reloads, the guns does not always chamber the fist round and close. The shell hangs low in the slide. I must pull the slide back and chamber the round. This never happens with the factory loads. Is it because the factory are Full metal jackets and the lead bullets are not as smooth to chamber? Should I stay with jacketed bullets? Is my length off and should I go longer or shorter? Once chambered everything fires and runs thru the clip just fine untill empty. When shooting at the range and attempting to rapid fire and reload is the only time I have this issue. Any advise will help. The gun is new and so am I to reloading.

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[Jailer]

:shock:

[RobS]

Tell him to possibly take a gun safety course if he is not familiar with firearms (he said his was new which may mean it is his first), read the stickies here on the forum, get a reloading handbook (Lyman, ABC to Reloading etc.), and read more before jumping head first into things.

[Gunload Master]

I sent him a link to this thread so he will be watching and hopefully sign up to come on.

[kelbro]

Maybe the crimps are different??

[AZ-Stew]

My first thought is, how is he releasing the slide on the reload? It has to slam forward, as it does after each shot to chamber the round. Is he "limp wristing" the reload slide release? As someone else mentioned, how's that crimp? the cartridge needs a properly adjusted taper crimp. Are the boolits sized properly, or just a hair oversize?

There are many variables. You may have to work them out one by one.

Regards,

Stew

[noylj]

COL is too short for his gun. Factory must work in all guns, so it is the lowest common denominator.
In .40, you want the longest COL that fits your magazine and feeds and chambers. He is too short and any bullet set-back could find him holding a broken gun.
Lead bullets have a higher coefficient of friction when impacting the feed ramp, while they have a lower CoF down the bore
You should NEVER use the slide stop to close the slide. Pull the slide back and release it. That is the way the gun feeds while firing and that is how you want to feed the first round.
If his gun is new, he should fire about 200 rounds before even worrying about anything.
Did he clean the gun completely when he got it or is it gummed up with anti-ruse compound?

[Harter66]

Noylj , thanks for the point of intrest . I don't believe I've ever untill your post "racked" from the lock open position. Maybe I've been lucky in my guns.

No one has mentioned nose shape , I've heard that the 45 needs to be tweeked to run other than plain RN. I've seen a couple of 9s that wouldn't feed HPs and a particular brand of RN. So my sugestion is try a different boolit or get the feed ramp polished.

[SkookumJeff]

I'll bet a donut he/she is following the slide down with their hand when they release the slide. That will cause a jam or FTF more times than not. Some guns are very sensitive to this! Noylj has it right, pull the slide BACK to release the slide lock and let the slide cycle forward under spring pressure ONLY. It doesn't take much to cause a problem when allowing the slide release hand to interfere in any way with allowing the slide to cycle forward under spring pressure. This is a foundational lesson in any quality firearms training class, which is a good thought here. If you haven't done so already, take a firearms handling class.

The COL listed is .015 shorter than recommended for .40 S&W. That's not a heck of a lot. It could be an issue but if it were my gun and that was really the problem, I'd be looking for a less finicky gun, especially if it serves duty as a carry gun.

A note about a good training class. I'm a manly man, smart, good lookin, and blessed with DNA that makes me a natural gun expert and crack shot...I shot for decades, confident in my God given skills and abilities. Then I took a good defensive handgun class. I was incredulous how much I learned, and how well I shoot now because of my two day class. If you haven't done so, take a good class. Before I took mine, I didn't know, what I didn't know...

[noylj]

I always work from the longest COL with a couple of inert "dummy" rounds to find the COL that feeds and chambers. Even my pre-WWII P08s and my WWII P38s will feed lead SWC bullets without any problems.
I don't have a single .45 that won't feed almost any bullet (of course, about all I hoot are 200gn L-SWCs) and most will feed an empty case.
Note: all guns that I have, when you pull back the slide the slide stop lever drops down. I NEVER touch the slide stop pin except to remove it. It is only a lever so it can lock the slide back and it really should not be used for dropping the slide. Never try to assist your slide to close. Let the sucker move at full speed just as it does every time you shoot it.
It just seems that every new shooter is afraid to just rack the slide, fearing that the new gun will be damaged. I recommend that they simply get a revolver and be done with it.

[stubshaft]

:popcorn::popcorn:

[geargnasher]

The S&W M&P .40 is probably the worst possible handgun and caliber that anyone could have devised for shooting cast boolits. It can be done, I've figured out how to do it, but it is a NIGHTMARE.


First, SELL THE M&P AND GO BUY SOMETHING ELSE IF YOU WANT TO SHOOT CAST BOOLITS.

Based only on the email, I'd have to agree that I think some basic handling skills are missing, but there's not much to go on since none of us observed the handling personally. I took a "basic" handgun safety class that included handling and firing drills for automatic handguns recently, I was surprised to actually learn a couple of good things there, and I consider myself extremely proficient with just about any type of handgun since I competed with one for years and have been shooting for nearly 30. What I'm saying is it's good, universal advice and nobody is talking "down" here.

Next, go buy three (any three) reloading manuals that are new enough to have data for the .40 S&W (in case you want to keep the gun and reload j-words for it) and read the entire text from introduction to the beginning of the load data sections in each book.

Then, buy the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3 or 4 and read the whole thing. When done, wait three days and read it again.

After all of that, go buy a .45 ACP of your choice, preferably NOT anything made by Smith and Wesson. Buy some .45 ACP Lee dies, (the THREE die set, NOT the one with the "Factory Crimp" die, it is no good for loading cast boolits). Buy an extra taper crimp die for station #4 on the turret. Get an Accurate Mold #45-230-L and specify .453" driving bands for the alloy you choose. Size .452" and lube with White Label BAC. Seat the front shoulder flush with the case mouth, put just enough taper-crimp to make the mouth .473", and go blaze.

I would put forth the information I have on sucessfully loading cast for the M&P .40, but the methods and tools are really well beyond the scope of a beginning reloader/caster.

Gear

[fredj338]

Noylj , thanks for the point of intrest . I don't believe I've ever untill your post "racked" from the lock open position. Maybe I've been lucky in my guns.

No one has mentioned nose shape , I've heard that the 45 needs to be tweeked to run other than plain RN. I've seen a couple of 9s that wouldn't feed HPs and a particular brand of RN. So my sugestion is try a different boolit or get the feed ramp polished.

So when you shoot to slide lock & put in a new mag, the slide drops on it's own? Yeah, most guns are NOT designed to do that (some 22lr & some 380s, yes), factory or handloaded ammo. You either hit the slide release or slingshot the slide to chamber a fresh round from slide lock.

[winelover]

You should NEVER use the slide stop to close the slide. Pull the slide back and release it.

:veryconfuI seen this mentioned before in another thread concerning 1911 style pistols. I have been using the slide stop exclusely to chamber a round in my Browning HP for 30+years and (over 10,000 rounds) and have yet to break anything. I might be lucky or maybe Browning makes a better pistol than Colt. My Ruger MKII never gave me any trouble either but I probably use the slide release only 50% of the time. YMMV

Winelover

[btroj]

Great advice Gear.
Too bad that today's tacticool shooter is just not patient enough to do all that. They have been raised to believe they have a right to do what ever they want and that it should always work out for them. They have rights you know.

Learning to reload takes time. Measured in years, if not decades. Casting and shooting lead bullets takes just as long to learn. The are not for the faint at heart or impatient. Failure is an option, and a great learning tool. If you don't have what it takes, then don't do it. Period. Not every shooter is destined to be a reloader.

[JSnover]

As far as using the slide stop to chamber the first round, I've seen guns that would and guns that wouldn't. I'd be a little concerned about possibly accelerating wear on the stop but I can't back that up with any direct personal experience, it's just an opinion of mine.
But the shooter did say the problem only happens when feeding the first round with the slide locked open (only, but not always) with cast. So yeah, I'd load a few boxes, make sure I'm not limp-wristing and rack it manually every time until all magazines are empty. See what happens.

[mdi]

As an aside and pardon me for hikacking the thread. I've seen/read lots of posts like this. If a round won't chamber maybe something is too large (the round is a peg, the chamber is a hole. If the peg won't go in the hole it's too big somewhere!). My advice is to measure the suspected ammo. Is it too long? Is it too short? Is the case mouth too big?; too light crimp? Is the bullet to big in dia.? Find the offending deminsion and adjust your dies (mis adjusted dies are 90% of the problems). Sorry, but the devil made me say that:wink:

[Echo]

My thoughts go to COL -and fiddling with until feeding problem is solved - or not..

[mike in co]

heck he never said he released the slide..he said when he put the mag in....
but with reloads he had to pull back...

one of my comp guns if you hit the mag hard going in, it would release the slide......

need better definitions of what he is doing....

the short coal is an issue, esp if he is loading to some book value on the powder.

bottom line need more info to make intelligent suggestions/fixes.....

how long is the lead boolit , what powder.....

define the real issue on not feeding...is it from slide release/lock or is it sticking on the bullet and need the slide pulled alll the way back to force feed the first round ???

he need to post more info...

mike in co

[geargnasher]

Short COAL is not the issue. I've loaded the M&P from 1.065" to 1.135" and it will gobble it all up.

Gear

[DIRT Farmer]

Then there are the PIA magazine issues. Try shooting a few from a half full mag. Then there are right left feed issues in double stack mags.

Best guess find the max COL that will feed.

[SkookumJeff]

Clarification would be helpful. I had thought he was saying when the magazine was put into the gun, the slide cycled forward and would not strip the first round out of the mag and he had to manually cycle the slide again? Or is it that the slide cycles forward but the round won't chamber? Or??? Am I the only one confused? :veryconfu

Wouldn't be the first time...

[DIRT Farmer]

The round jams into the frount of the magazine as I read it. When he racks the slide the second time it loads.

[Stick_man]

The S&W M&P .40 is probably the worst possible handgun and caliber that anyone could have devised for shooting cast boolits. It can be done, I've figured out how to do it, but it is a NIGHTMARE.


First, SELL THE M&P AND GO BUY SOMETHING ELSE IF YOU WANT TO SHOOT CAST BOOLITS.


Gear, I have to respectfully disagree. Now, if you had said the S&W Sigma..., I would agree, but the M&P is no Sigma. I have the M&P and absolutely love it. Have never had a problem with it feeding anything except for when I try to use the slide lock to release the slide on the first round of a reload. If I pull the slide back and "slingshot" it, mine has always performed flawlessly. SWC, RN, TC, RNFP, it doesn't seem to care. Maybe I have been extremely lucky with mine.:lovebooli

Based on MY experience, I would guess first it is the method of releasing the slide. Second guess (very distant second) would be the COL, especially since it feeds fine through the rest of the mag.

There is a lot of information missing in that email, but I would also recommend a good gun handling course, even if he has been shooting for many years.

[Harter66]

In my defense my normal procedure with an unfamilar is to load from a closed empty action with a loaded magizine "slingshot" I guess , my HP clone seems prefer the slide stop release method . The HP clone will feed everything I've put in it RN,HP,TC,RNFP from 85-158 gns. I know a guy with a 1911 "hardballer"that would only feed 220-230 fmjs.

[geargnasher]

Gear, I have to respectfully disagree. Now, if you had said the S&W Sigma..., I would agree, but the M&P is no Sigma. I have the M&P and absolutely love it. Have never had a problem with it feeding anything except for when I try to use the slide lock to release the slide on the first round of a reload. If I pull the slide back and "slingshot" it, mine has always performed flawlessly. SWC, RN, TC, RNFP, it doesn't seem to care. Maybe I have been extremely lucky with mine.:lovebooli


I wish it had been that easy for me [smilie=l: Maybe I expect too much from the gun and caliber, or you're just better at this game than I am, but I burned a brick of primers, tried six different powders, two or three different primers, three different lubes, and at least three different alloys before I was able to achieve 2" groups at 25 yards in the 1050-1100 fps range from the bench with 100% reliability and minimal leading. The COAL was 1.118", 1.120" wouldn't go to battery after the first shot, and 1.115" would group 3" all else being the same. It really is that finicky. Also had a custom expander spud made to deal with the tough .40 brass. Once I got it licked, the same ammo works great in a Kahr and Glock a friend of mine has, their chambers are tight and tapered just like the M&P. I've loaded for an M&P .45 ACP too, and it didn't have the same chamber, leading, and feeding issues as the .40. By the way, the .40 wouldn't group better than five inches at 25 with any of three different factory j-word loads that we tried, so I felt pretty good about getting full-power cast loads up to where I thought that gun ought to shoot.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

I don't know the M&P specifically, but these are my general comments:

1) The cast boolit probably does not have the same nose profile as the factory ammo, therefore the length of the factory ammo has no bearing on helping to determine the correct seating length of the lead boolit for proper feeding. You need to make up several different dummy rounds with different seating depths & see what feeds.

2) reducing the COAL from what is published in your loading manual will increase your chamber pressure. I hope that you are not loading the maximum listed powder charge with a reduced COAL.

3) Limp Wristing may also be part of the problem. Since the rounds feed fine under fire, they are good enough to feed with a sharp motion of the slide. A firm grip on the gun & crisp release of the slide may get these boolits to feed as-is. That does not mean that the boolits are seated to the best possible cartridge length.

4) you may have a cast boolit with a nose profile that is not compatible with that particular gun's geometry. You may be better off changing to a different style of boolit.