linotype

[Doctor Sam]

Somebody educate me. At what point does linotype stop "growing"?
Here is my story: I cast some 7mm bullets with EBay molds which worked great. Ran them thru the Lyman .285 lubrisizer with GC, loaded them into 7X57 cases and headed to the range a couple of days later. They would not chamber and all were well short of the 3.0" max OAL. Back home, with a red face , they measured anywhere from .286 to .289".
Geeze, I hate pulling bullets.
Must be a very basic question and I would appreciate someone taking their time to clue me in. I searched the internet and couldn't find much.
Many thanks.

[Bullshop]

Wow I never seen that before, dont know what to tell ya accept maybe load them in 30/30 cases and be ready for next weekend. At the rate thier growing they aught to be about right.
Sorry I cant help but a laugh shouldnt hurt anything.
BIC/BS

[montana_charlie]

Something makes me think they didn't grow after you loaded them.

Lyman dies are meant to produce the stated diameter when Lyman #2 alloy is used for the bullet. Linotype being harder, it probably has more 'springback' than the die is meant to compensate for.

Pull one bullet and run it through the lubrisizer again. Then measure it.
It won't surprise me if it is larger than you want it to be.

The obvious cure is a tighter die, or a softer alloy.
CM

[454PB]

I use a lot of linotype, and I've never seen anything like you describe. I think Charlie has it right, I suspect they were too big to start with.

[cbrick]

Haven't even heard of such a thing. Could be the die but I can't help but wonder what you are using to measure the bullets. Calipers maybe? Please don't say a set of those plastic calipers I've seen.[smilie=1:

[Marlin Junky]

Did you measure them just after sizing/gas checking them and if so, how; i.e., did you measure them longitudinally or in cross section? Maybe you bent them in the sizing/checking operation.

MJ

[Doctor Sam]

Thanks for the laugh and the questions. I do have a 30-30 and may have to use them.
I have an old fashioned dial caliper made in China of steel. Usually it is accurate to three decimal places. I have used these and micrometers in my work so I am reasonable certain of the measurments.
All were cross section at the driving bands.
I did not measure as cast. Good suggestion.
I thought after running them through a .285 sizer that would be the end of it. Apparently I did not run them deep enough to make the whole bullet conform.
One is an Ideal mold designed by H. Guy Loverin. I didn't think all eight grease grooves needed filling.
Much as I hate pulling bullets this seems the only solution; then run them all the way down in the sizing die and see what comes out.
Sure as the dickens it shouldn't lead the bbl.
Thanks for your interest and suggestions.

[Bullshop]

Doc
Your right about not neading all them grooves filled as far as lubing is concernd, especialy with the modern supper lubes we now have,(SG)
But to minimize deformation fill them grooves, makes a stronger boolit.
Friend BA pointed that out to me and doggon if he wernt right.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

Doc,

Mark me down as an idiot if you haven't already. It's quite possible that you aren't wrong in your estimation. At least as far as my results.

I mold all winter and store untouched so I can do what ever strikes my fancy throughout the year. I have molded bullets and measured them right from the mold, only to measure the exact same bullet later and have it have gained .001 or more depending on diameter.

It doesn't happen often. And it has happened to both the unsized and those that were sized even compensating for the springback. It has happened periodically with every mix down to WW. But I hadnb't fooled much with mixes less hard that ACWW until this year.

And sizing springback, which is a very real event, doesn't have anything to do with it when it happens.

Twilight Zone stuff for sure.

[Char-Gar]

Linotype because of the antimony content does expand as it cools. However, once it is throughly room temp, the dimensions are stable. I don't know what is going on, but it is not linotype bullets growing days later.

[SharpsShooter]

If he can grow lino in harvestable amounts......this bunch will make him a wealthy man.

SS

[swheeler]

DS; maybe your .285 sizer isn't, I have one Lyman .309 sizer that sizes .3105"

[1Shirt]

Sure is nice to see that someone else is willing to admit an occaisional brain belch.
It is also nice to know that this thread may well save somebody else from making the same mistake. Oh---Know you don't have to lube all the grooves on Lovern style blts, but they look kinda naked if you don't, and look real classy when you lube them all particularly with Red lube.
1Shirt!

[Doctor Sam]

The older I get the less I know. I hate to tell this on myself but figure I owe it to all who responded.
ALL of the driving bands have to be sized. The simple explanation is I did not have the die set to do that. Droped her down and they work great.
I've never been afraid to ask for help and the combined knowledge of you guys on this board is astonishing.
Many thanks.

[AZ-Stew]

Doc,

Another option, albeit a small PITA, is to size twice. Set your die depth so that all bands are sized, but don't add lube. When finished, reset the die depth so that it's correct for the number of bands to which you want to add lube and run them through again, this time, obviously, adding the lube. You have to run them through twice, but at least all bands get sized, without filling them all with lube.

I ran into a similar problem with the recent .357 KT group buy mould. The length of the forward driving band makes it impossible to chamber the rounds when loaded in .357 brass (trimmed to the "trim to" length) unless the bullet is full-length resized. However, when sized full length in Lyman dies, it is into the die far enough that the crimp groove also gets filled with lube. In addition to producing messy results, with lube on the outside of the bullets in loaded rounds, this results in an eventual buildup of lube in the bullet seating die that will affect seating depth.

I have some photos that I will have to post later showing a "fix" I've worked out for this bullet so that I only have to run it through the sizer die once. I cut a strip from an aluminum beer can and wrapped it around the sizer die to cover the top row of lube holes, and held it in place with a strip of electrical tape. I tried using just the tape at first, but apparently, I "misunderestimated" the amount of pressure generated in the lube reservoir of the Lyman 450 Lubricator/Sizer. The lube punched through the tape like it wasn't there. Even with the aluminum beer can strip, the pressure of the lube will visibly dent the aluminum under the layer of tape. With the top row of holes covered, I can run the bullet into the die far enough to completely size the extra-wide front driving band without filling the crimp groove with lube, all in a single pass. You might want to experiment with this concept for your Loverin rifle bullet.

Regards,

Stew

[chunkum]

Doctor Sam,
I'm not sure why it occurs sporadically but perhaps there are factors involved other than just the linotype components. At any rate, when casting for a FA 454 Casull with some linotype purchased in "printing form" I ran into this apparent "rebound" phenomenon. The bullets cast from it were put into a Lyman 0.452 sizer and coming out enough oversize to make chambering problematic after getting them loaded up. I was advised that this was rebound and not uncommon with linotype. A 0.451" H&I die solved the problem the bullets emerging at the desired 0.452 . Perhaps all linotype doesn't do this but I suspect it does more often than is realized and not detected because 1) few people check bullet size after the sizing operation and 2) The tolerances of most chamber throats are such that the rounds chamber easily, even when 0.001" oversized.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[mastercast.com]

AZ-Stew,

If you wish to close a row of holes in a sizing die, try using lead shot. I use #6 to close the holes in a Star sizing die. Use one pellet of appropriate size for your die to close each hole...just press or drive it in until it is flush with the outside of the die. To remove it later, I use a sharp pointed steel pick to pluck the shot pellets out of the die. Works like a charm. The shot pellets will stay in the die at 100 p.s.i. air pressure in a commercial size/lube machine until removed.

The holes in the Star die taper, or get smaller as they approach the interior diameter of the die. If the holes in your sizing die are the same diameter all the way through, this may not work for you.

Mike
mastercast.com

[AZ-Stew]

Mastercast,

I had considered using lead shot to close the holes, but I figured it would just get pushed on through. Both the Lyman and RCBS dies have untapered holes. At this time, I only have one RCBS die, a .309 I bought because neither Midsouth nor Midway had that size in Lyman. All my other dozen and a half sizer dies are Lymans. I've been satisfied with them, so I see no reason to change. I plan to buy a .358 sizer die soon, but my current sizer for .38 cal bullets is a .357 dia. Lyman. The older Lymans had more lube holes than current manufacture, and the .309 RCBS only had a single row of holes. I kind of wonder how it would work with a Loverin style bullet that has a bunch of lube grooves.

Anyway, the aluminum strip is working OK for me in its current application. In addition, it's easy to remove. Thanks for the Info, though. It's interesting to know that the Saeco dies have tapered lube holes. It would be even more interesting to know what their engineers had in mind that caused them to choose a design that requires more expensive tooling. You can make a straight hole with standard tooling. A tapered one requires custom tools.

Regards,

Stew

[44man]

I don't use linotype but I do add a little antimony and tin to WW metal. My moulds drop .476" boolits and they stay there for days. I do not size! I just took several out of the boolit box and measured them.
Fellas, they are now .479"!
This got me wondering so I took out some of my .44 boolits that were run through a .430" die. They cast right at .430". They now measure .432".
I have to wonder if this is the reason I get super accuracy from my revolvers.
Now to the .45 Colt Lee boolits sized .452". They are now .456"!
Don't you just love this game?

[7br]

Hmmm, Don't think I have the math down perfect, but I think about a 40degree temp swing would make up .003 in a .476 bullet.

Cast in the garage at 40 degrees and measure in the house at 78degrees and you are almost there. A 30 degree swing would move you up to .478 Just a little food for thought.

dL = a * dT * L
where dL = change in length
a = constant for lead = .000016/degrees f
dT = change in temp in degrees f
L = initial Lenth

Disclaimer: I am not a Mechanical Engineer or a metalurgist.

Maybe forearmed would like to chime in.

[VTDW]

I have a cheap Lee Challenger press that I use for sizing and also for flaring the necks of my brass just a tad. Just change the die.

I hope I haven't missed something in the replies above and thereby showing my ignorance.

Dave

[454PB]

Mastercast,
Thanks for the Info, though. It's interesting to know that the Saeco dies have tapered lube holes. It would be even more interesting to know what their engineers had in mind that caused them to choose a design that requires more expensive tooling. You can make a straight hole with standard tooling. A tapered one requires custom tools.

Regards,

Stew

Just for clarification, the Star sizing die lube holes are not tapered, they are dual diameter. There is a small hole into the die interior, then a larger hole between that hole and the die exterior. I made a die for my Star sizer, and it was easier to drill a single diameter hole where I wanted it. I don't know about Saeco dies, I've never seen one.

[44man]

I measure boolits in the basement and store them here. I measure a day or so after casting. The temp never varies more then a few degrees down here summer or winter. It is 69 down here now and never gets lower then 62.

[mastercast.com]

This is getting very interesting.

I just went out in the shop, dipped into my personal supply of .30 caliber 205 grain gas checked bullets, cast of linotype. They were made two years ago almost to the day. They were sized .309. At 40 degrees fahrenheit ambient temperature, they now measure .310. I am in the process of heating them up to 78 degrees fahrenheit.....I am most curious to see what happens.

I will post the results shortly for what it is worth.


The bullets have now been in the house for twenty hours at 78 degrees fahrenheit. They still measure .310 diameter. I expected at least some small increase in diameter with a 38 degree increase in temperature.(perhaps they did increase in diameter to such a small extent that I was not able to detect it with the measuring devices I have here)

I have measured linotype bullets several weeks after they were sized, and they remained the same diameter they were sized to.
This is the first time I have measured them a couple of years down the road. I had no idea the diameter increased over time.

If they will still chamber, perhaps they will shoot a little better. If not, back to the .309 sizing die.

Mike
mastercast.com