44 mag HP "Boolits"

[Sully]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/429421245GrSWCKeith003.jpg

If I might borrow a pic from a vendor here...

Would a slug such as pictured and cast with pure lead ( or at least 98%) and hopping along at "about" 1250 FPS expand on impact or would it have a tendency to just fragment and not really expand.

[white eagle]

I think with that gaping hole it has no option but to expand

[Down South]

If you want to push 1250 fps then I think you will need harder alloy than pure lead (around 4 BHN). You "might" be able to get by with air cooled WW at about 10-12 BHN. Even with WW alloy you should get good expansion.

[Sully]

OK guys...appreciate your thoughts. What had / has me pondering is that with the thin sidewalls of the nose.....and lead being as soft and structurally weak...that the nose would just "go to pot" and not expand and hold together....as say a jacketed HP might do.

Ive got my lead in pics now so the wife can take them to work and get the material checked out as to hardness....and that way I'll know what I got and if I need to harden it up some...etc.

Thanks again

[lwknight]

I would suggest up to 5% tin for the HP boolits and think it should be plenty good for expansion at 1250+ fps. Definately worthy of a water barrel test.
Higher tin means better weight retension.
Pure lead will expand awesomelly but is so soft that the outer edges will be torn off as it expands.

Maybe the 2-2.5 % would also work out pretty well.
You could cast harder boolits for practice if leading is a problem and softer for business.
The 2% tin 429240 RN that I tested mushroomed inside out and were pretty accurate. So
with that hp , 1250 should be worth a test.

[fredj338]

I can tell you for sure, that large a HP, driven mcuh more than 1000fps is going to dome apart if done of something like a 25-1 alloy. Shallower cup points will hold expansion better than dee/large cavs @ higher vel. These were wetapck tested. Note how much expansion you get @ pretty low vel w/ even smaller HP. Antimony in the alloy only makes things worse as you get brittle allyo that frags.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-265.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg

[lwknight]

I gotta get more cool pictures. This 44 mag was 40:1 at 1450 fps in mud.
99% weight retention. I really need to fill the barrel and test water.

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/top.jpg
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/Bfr_aft.jpg
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/44_240_RN.jpg

[Lloyd Smale]

really doubt your going to get any kind of accuracy with a bullet like that cast out of pure at those velocitys.

[HATCH]

Well for some people at distances less then ten feet it doesn't matter.....

[txbirdman]

I've got a HPing attachment for my Forester case trimmer and plan to do some testing with the 429421 and 429383 in the near future. One bit is .125" which seems pretty small. The other is .175" which appears to be about the size of fredj338's HP bullet. I plan on shooting these ahead of 10 gr. of Unique in my Blackhawk. The SWC chronographs at 1125 fps. I'm planning on using 50/50 (lead/ww). Also I was thinking about drilling back to the drive band with the smaller bit then using the larger bit to create a HP much like fred's. I tried the larger HP on milk jugs the other day using straight WW and it fragmented badly but penetrated 5 jugs.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Here is a 434640 HP about 70%WW 2% Tin and the rest recovered rangelead about 1200 fps shot into shredded rubber mulch :
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Rubber8.jpg

H&G #503 (looks similar to what your picture is, but pentagon hp) shot into rubber mulch. Top about 900 fps, middle about 1250 fps, bottom hit another boolit in the trap! Same alloy as above.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/HG5034.jpg

Same as above but going into water, the faster ones fragmented, the slower just mushroomed
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/HG503Test3.jpg

Side view:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/HG503Test5.jpg

My first casting of the H&G #503's
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Cast002.jpg

Close to pure, I'd not want to push it much more than 800 fps . . .

[MtGun44]

Pure will be too soft and you will blow of the whole front. It will do a lot of damage and the
base will continue on quite a bit. With WWts you should get good expansion and it might
hang together, but will be a bit on the edge at that velocity, IMO. You probably want a bit
smaller and shallower HP for that application. That is more of a .44 Spl sized cavity.

Bill

[Sully]

So...what I think Im hearing ( reading..lol) is that if I wish a HP with a cavity such as this..
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Cast002.jpg...
Im going to have to experiment with alloys so that the slug stays together at a velocity of about 1200 or so....correct?

[GP100man]

Now ya got it !!

I cast a 358156 HP that`s deep 1/8 hole I think ( where ya at Buckshot) factory hole but missing the pin .

I cast it with Isotope 971.5/1.5 with 1% tin added & I shot it into water covered builders sand at 1150 fps to see if the HP would hang on ,It did !! BARELY !!

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/102_0371.jpg

[Ole]

So...what I think Im hearing ( reading..lol) is that if I wish a HP with a cavity such as this..
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Cast002.jpg...
Im going to have to experiment with alloys so that the slug stays together at a velocity of about 1200 or so....correct?

1200fps use a lot of tin and not much/any antimony.

I shot these from my Colt Mustang @ 850-900fps and the 25/1 alloy expanded a little too much.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh280/Ole1830/Bullet%20making/HPranchdogbullet.jpg

I would try something like 10 or 16 parts lead to 1 part tin with those boolits if you're going to push them that hard.

[kelbro]

Ole, you gotta quit posting that pic of the Mustang! I'm still recovering from Christmas spending.

[geargnasher]

I have that boolit in an old Ideal 429421 HP, I shoot it out to 200 yards in a 10.5" Model 29 with an Ulratdot on top. When punching paper, I use air-cooled wheel weights at 13.5 bhn aged, and found good expansion/weight retention with 16:1 lead/tin in a hunting load I worked up, but the WW metal can be pushed a bit harder with good accuracy. With WW, I push then to about 1380 fps with Alliant 2400, the 16:1 I keep in the 1150-1200 fps range.

For hollow point performance, many different alloys will work depending on the HP design, launch acceleration, and impact velocity.

Gear

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

This is from the mold Miha made, it is a copy of the H&G #503 with a pentagon hollow point I showed above:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/Inyourface.jpg

[44man]

HP's in the .44 are fun to play with but I would not be shooting deer with them. Even with a double lung shot, those boolits will cause some serious loss of penetration let alone a bone hit. A deer might go down fast but I think about half the deer shot with them will be lost if you hunt heavy cover. Better hunt open cover so you can watch them.
A large bear will laugh them off and eat you! :bigsmyl2:

[Ohio Rusty]

Nice Pics Sully ..... Do you know what boolit that is ?? I like the shape and style of that boolit. It would amke a good slug for these Ohio deer.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[1Shirt]

Great pics, and a lot of good testing and info on this thread.
1Shirt!

[Ohio Rusty]

Nice Pics Sully ..... Do you know what boolit that is ?? I like the shape and style of that boolit. It would amke a good slug for these Ohio deer.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[Bret4207]

So...what I think Im hearing ( reading..lol) is that if I wish a HP with a cavity such as this..
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Cast002.jpg...
Im going to have to experiment with alloys so that the slug stays together at a velocity of about 1200 or so....correct?

Yes, and you're also going to have to work at finding a load that shoots good. Velocity alone is only part of the issue you'll be dealing with. Myself, I'd start with AC WW and see where it took me.

[Sully]

Nice Pics Sully ..... Do you know what boolit that is ?? I like the shape and style of that boolit. It would amke a good slug for these Ohio deer.
Ohio Rusty ><>

No deer hunting here Rusty......Im looking in the direction of an "anti personnel" round for my 629

[Moonie]

Ole, you gotta quit posting that pic of the Mustang! I'm still recovering from Christmas spending.

lol, know what you mean, I lingered a little longer than I should have...

[jleneave]

I gotta get more cool pictures. This 44 mag was 40:1 at 1450 fps in mud.
99% weight retention. I really need to fill the barrel and test water.

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/top.jpg
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/Bfr_aft.jpg
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/44_240_RN.jpg

I hope I don't sound too much like an idiot but, is the loaded round in the pics paper patched? If so how do they shoot and what type of firearm are you shooting them out of?? I was wanting to give paper patching a try just for kicks but I don't have any molds for rifle boolits and was wanting to play around with handgun paper patched boolits. Any info or advice would be appreciated. Sorry to hi-jack the thread. Thanks.

Jody

[Sully]

This is from the mold Miha made, it is a copy of the H&G #503 with a pentagon hollow point I showed above:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/Inyourface.jpg



Nice pic...??..shot..??...lol Wicked looking isnt it?

[fredj338]

HP's in the .44 are fun to play with but I would not be shooting deer with them. Even with a double lung shot, those boolits will cause some serious loss of penetration let alone a bone hit. A deer might go down fast but I think about half the deer shot with them will be lost if you hunt heavy cover. Better hunt open cover so you can watch them.
A large bear will laugh them off and eat you! :bigsmyl2:
Depends on the design. This season I put down two deer w/ broadside shots form this cup point @ 1225fps. Easily penetrated on a double lung shot (80yds), taking a rib going in & out. After quite a bit of testing, I think a shallow LHP or cup point yields the best of some expansion & good penetration. Entrance wound.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/270grLHP-deer.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg
Quote:

No deer hunting here Rusty......Im looking in the direction of an "anti personnel" round for my 629
For an SD load, a heavy large LHP @ 900fps would be just about perfect for the 44mag. Easy to shoot, certainly more than 12" of penetration & massive wound channel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Nice pic...??..shot..??...lol Wicked looking isnt it?

Not something most people would want to see in real life!

I was CC'ing that Ruger SRH Alaskan, for about six months . . . is quite heavy, but would get the job done!

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have the Mihec .44 Mold in the six banger in 256 weight solid SWC and the brass cramer HP that makes two at a time.

I have two .44's. The first one did not like the 256 gr solids loaded over 6.5 gr of Unique....it about tore offa my hand at the wrist. It was just too much power for that Charter Arms Bulldog Pug 2.5" bbl ccw gun.

So putting aside the hotter loads I made up some using the HP boolits and 4.5 gr of Unique. Now I am a happy camper. The lighter loadings are working fine in the short barrelled Bulldog and although accurate I am going to have to work with some softer alloy to get expansion at low velocities. Fired at 10 feet into 7 milk jugs full of water the boolit just kept on chugging along. Then I tried 9 jugs. Same result. No expansion and acted like a sold nosed round at 700 fps out of the smaller gun.

Loaded into my 5.5" tubed Ruger Bisley .44 Special these rounds opened up very nicely and would be very effective on any mammal at up to any range your skills would allow you to hit well. Loaded over 6.5 gr of Unique these WDWW's with the cramer HP mashed up pretty good and went through 4 jugs before being stopped in the 5th jug. The first jug was pretty much blown to pieces, the second spilt pretty badly with big holes in it, the 3rd split apart and the 4th with big holes and the last jug had the round inside with a large diameter entrance hole.

These rounds out of the Ruger BH Bisley were clocked over a chrony at 950 to 975 FPS. Considering the weight of the boolit and speed and expansion properties of the alloy I would conisider this a winner because they are also accurate at 25 yds to within 2".

Now I am going to play with the same boolit but with some Holy Black just to see if I can make it work there also.

[txbirdman]

Crash,

The performance you're getting out of your Bisley is what I look for in a defensive load. I tested some Golden Sabers and Gold Dots in the 45 ACP using water filled milk jugs and that's exactly the results I got from those rounds. Since that time I've used that as my basis for evaluating HP cast bullets.

[44man]

Depends on the design. This season I put down two deer w/ broadside shots form this cup point @ 1225fps. Easily penetrated on a double lung shot (80yds), taking a rib going in & out. After quite a bit of testing, I think a shallow LHP or cup point yields the best of some expansion & good penetration. Entrance wound.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/270grLHP-deer.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg
Quote:

For an SD load, a heavy large LHP @ 900fps would be just about perfect for the 44mag. Easy to shoot, certainly more than 12" of penetration & massive wound channel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg
A little expansion is fine and your boolit looks right. It is over expansion I would worry about. Some of those dead flat ones are not right. I would not like more then the crimp groove distance and want the boolit to stay together.
I shot 3 deer right were you did and they opened too fast and though I seen the deer drop and they killed fine, there was no blood trail back to where I shot them. None went through the other side.
It is not wise to look for the largest expansion.
Hollow points are like alloy changes, adjust for the velocity. Some pictured here look great but some would scare me shooting game.
I played with them for years and still love them but I was trying for the largest expansion I could get in water jugs, etc. We could not hunt deer with revolvers then and once I was able to, I found too much is not a good thing.
Now on a yote or fox! :mrgreen:

[Sully]

Depends on the design. This season I put down two deer w/ broadside shots form this cup point @ 1225fps. Easily penetrated on a double lung shot (80yds), taking a rib going in & out. After quite a bit of testing, I think a shallow LHP or cup point yields the best of some expansion & good penetration. Entrance wound.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg
Quote:

For an SD load, a heavy large LHP @ 900fps would be just about perfect for the 44mag. Easy to shoot, certainly more than 12" of penetration & massive wound channel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg

Thats the sort of expansion..or a tad more...that I'll be loading to attempt to get. I dont have to worry about a blood trail or..etc..etc..because they wont be used for deer hunting but 99% primarily for SD work.

[fredj338]

So putting aside the hotter loads I made up some using the HP boolits and 4.5 gr of Unique. Now I am a happy camper. The lighter loadings are working fine in the short barrelled Bulldog and although accurate I am going to have to work with some softer alloy to get expansion at low velocities. Fired at 10 feet into 7 milk jugs full of water the boolit just kept on chugging along. Then I tried 9 jugs. Same result. No expansion and acted like a sold nosed round at 700 fps out of the smaller gun.

Loaded into my 5.5" tubed Ruger Bisley .44 Special these rounds opened up very nicely and would be very effective on any mammal at up to any range your skills would allow you to hit well. Loaded over 6.5 gr of Unique these WDWW's with the cramer HP mashed up pretty good and went through 4 jugs before being stopped in the 5th jug. The first jug was pretty much blown to pieces, the second spilt pretty badly with big holes in it, the 3rd split apart and the 4th with big holes and the last jug had the round inside with a large diameter entrance hole.

These rounds out of the Ruger BH Bisley were clocked over a chrony at 950 to 975 FPS. Considering the weight of the boolit and speed and expansion properties of the alloy I would conisider this a winner because they are also accurate at 25 yds to within 2".

Now I am going to play with the same boolit but with some Holy Black just to see if I can make it work there also.
Even for pure LHP, 800fps is about the minimum for some expansion.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg


Thats the sort of expansion..or a tad more...that I'll be loading to attempt to get. I dont have to worry about a blood trail or..etc..etc..because they wont be used for deer hunting but 99% primarily for SD work.
IT's why I posted that 251grLSWCHP bullet; big deep HP allows for quite a bit of expansion @ lower vel.


A little expansion is fine and your boolit looks right. It is over expansion I would worry about. Some of those dead flat ones are not right. I would not like more then the crimp groove distance and want the boolit to stay together.
I shot 3 deer right were you did and they opened too fast and though I seen the deer drop and they killed fine, there was no blood trail back to where I shot them. None went through the other side.
It is not wise to look for the largest expansion.
Hollow points are like alloy changes, adjust for the velocity. Some pictured here look great but some would scare me shooting game.

Agreed, it's why I had the pin on my 44Dev mold modified to cast a cup point. It expands some, & still maintains enough mass for complete penetration, at least on deer. Slow it down to 1000fps & it still would be a good SD load.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg

[JIMinPHX]

Ole, you gotta quit posting that pic of the Mustang! I'm still recovering from Christmas spending.

That particular Mustang is a Pocketlite variant. Good luck finding one of them for less than a million dollars.

[JIMinPHX]

Would a slug such as pictured and cast with pure lead ( or at least 98%) and hopping along at "about" 1250 FPS expand on impact or would it have a tendency to just fragment and not really expand.

In general, adding tin helps to keep the boolit together as it expands. In general, adding antimony makes the boolit harder & reduces expansion, but makes the boolit more brittle. In general, larger HP cavities increase expansion. You need to strike a balance between the different variables to get the results that you are looking for.

[kelbro]

That particular Mustang is a Pocketlite variant. Good luck finding one of them for less than a million dollars.

You got that right. I missed an opportunity on one of those last year.

I don't need another pistol. I don't need another pistol. I don't need another pistol....

Who am I kidding? That never works. :)

[thx997303]

I seem to recall something about that pistol from the shot show this year.

I think I heard that somebody may be making one soon.

[Ole]

I seem to recall something about that pistol from the shot show this year.

I think I heard that somebody may be making one soon.

If you're referring to the Mustang, Sig makes a knock off (P238) that's almost the same exact specs.

[thx997303]

I am, and I do know of the Sig P238.

[kelbro]

Just a standard Mustang brings about $1K around here...

[Sully]

Boy! You guys sure can get off thread..???

[kelbro]

Sorry, it's the ADD. I see something shiny, I'm gone. :)

[Sully]

sorry, it's the add. I see something shiny, i'm gone. :)


lol..lmao!

[lwknight]

I hope I don't sound too much like an idiot but, is the loaded round in the pics paper patched? If so how do they shoot and what type of firearm are you shooting them out of?? I was wanting to give paper patching a try just for kicks but I don't have any molds for rifle boolits and was wanting to play around with handgun paper patched boolits. Any info or advice would be appreciated. Sorry to hi-jack the thread. Thanks.

Jody

It is paper patched and loaded full capacity of W296 and 240 grain RN 2% tin boolit.
Its the only load that I ever got descent accuracy from my *** Super Blackhawk.

The whole idea of the PP was to get a pretty soft boolit to work at full magnum power and they do to. Its just a regular .429240RN with thermal paper and shoved through a .430 sizer die.

We have a whole section on paper patching.

[Sully]

Depends on the design. This season I put down two deer w/ broadside shots form this cup point @ 1225fps. Easily penetrated on a double lung shot (80yds), taking a rib going in & out. After quite a bit of testing, I think a shallow LHP or cup point yields the best of some expansion & good penetration. Entrance wound.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/270grLHP-deer.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg
Quote:

For an SD load, a heavy large LHP @ 900fps would be just about perfect for the 44mag. Easy to shoot, certainly more than 12" of penetration & massive wound channel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg

Here's an older post revived!

You are right Fred! The weather straightened up here enough today to let me in the back yard to bust a few caps. I was running 9 grains of Unique behind a 240 gr LSWC ( commercial slug) and it felt "right". Its supposed to be faster out of my 4" M629 than commercial ammo was in my 5" Kimber 45 ACP. I'll have to load a few and mark them.

Im waiting on a couple of HP molds to make up some 240 gr HP's and test them. Thanks on the input about a potiential SD load